Does anyone think?

[politicasista]

Does anyone think that the whole NYT Swift Boat story is set up to distract us from Bush, (Rove?) and the 06 elections?

Please forgive my semi ignorance. I remember when the Smear Boat Liars made the rounds in August (and May?). Though I feel the campaign managers underestimated the impact of them. I too was wondering if Kerry did "forcefully" respond to them, but all the facts that have been posted here over and over and over again prove that he did respond, but the MSM ignored it as well as other things Kerry said.

The observation comes to this: To sue or not to sue? We were blogging about this at the Democratic Daily. I was thinking that it wouldn't be wrong not to sue them (if it puts and end to the lies).

On the other hand, I have semi-stayed out of the flamewar threads, but read somewhere that the SBL were "very damaging" to Kerry and the campaign and by "bringing up Vietnam again" he was playing into the Repukes' hands and setting himself up for disappointment in 08 (if he runs) cause there are those who say we need a clean, perfect, baggage/smear-free candidate. :shrug:

I was born after Vietnam, but both my parents protested the war, and my uncles and grandfather have served in the military.

I know it's a complicated issue. Can anyone help with understanding of this?

[blm]

1. No. Any focus on the swifts now hurts the swifts for what they're TRYING

to do to other Dem candidates.

I would say anyone who wants us to ignore it as a distraction may be doing so for their own reasons, but certainly NOT to help Kerry or the other vets that will be targeted.

[karynnj]

2. I don't think the NYT is using this as a smokescreen

Clearly, this was something Kerry and his people initiated. They have obviously been doing a huge amount of investigation - talking to people and looking through documents. The big claims have, by and large, been disproved. Kerry was the person telling the reporter what was being done. Although it doesn't say that he initiated the contact with the paper, but that seems highly likely.

I think that Kerry was doing serveral things:
1) Signalling that he wants all the information out - he knows what he did and he knows they are lying. In most cases, there are two sides to a story, but here many of these men said very very different (positive) things in his reviews and over the years - as recently as in 1996. Many said positive things to Doug Brinkley in 2002 - 2003. No new information came to them out of the blue between then and 2004. For some of the highest officers, they didn't like what ALL the swiftboat people said about him and the Sealords operation. They could have defended their operation - instead they joined an effort to smear Kerry.

2) I find it interesting that he spoke so much about the 35 yr friend of one of the main swiftboaters turning against them and voting for Kerry. The comment about a long interview the Kerry people had is interesting - and sounded like an open invitation to others. Kerry is a man who worked with investigators who unraveled the Contra/drug running and BCCI - could a lose network of RW malcontents be harder?

As to sueing, the standards for a public figure are really tough. Kerry can't prove they cost him the Presidency. He lost by a very small amount. Could it have affected 30,000 people so much they would have been Kerry not Bush voters (this would cause a 60,000 swing)? I think by November few people believed them - but they diverted the campaign to some degree from other issues. Kerry was astonishingly good in September and October, but August was a tough month. One question is whether the stress of dealing with these lies about the most painful part of his life made him less capable in August.

It was mostly one Clarkie bringing up Vietnam - unaware that ALL of Clark's record would have been under attack. Millitary service is less open and public than Congress, so they would have a lot to distort - some of which started to bubble up in 2004 before he quit. I assume it was as unfair and untrue as the Kerry stuff. He/she didn't get that the Kerry team is trying to get to the roots of the RW slime machine and should be commended by all Democrats for doing it. If Gore, Clark or Feingold etc were investigating the RW slime, they would be heroes.

As to playing into their hands, that is just stupid. Kerry would not touch this unless he knew he was rock solid. One thing everyone said (including us) was that if Kerry wanted the nomination he had to do something drastic to insure that these charges would not come back again. He's doing that. It looks like he is preparing a case to fight in the court of public opinion. In a legal court, he could just pick several big obvious already known lies - here he seems to be wanting to prove details as well. As to a vetted clean candidate - with the SBVT defeated, that's Kerry. They found nothing else on him -except things like sleeping on friend's couches when he couldn't afford appartments in both DC and Boston.

[ginnyinWI]

3. and not only will it help JK personally,

it's also good for other candidates and the Dems in general. And I do think he always considers his actions in that light.

[ProSense]

4. I agree with you and Karyn!

There is no need to tip toe around any of the related issues---Vietnam, lies, Kerry's testimony, 2004, etc. People act like they are afraid to bring these up when the facts are on our side. Iraq opened a lot of old wounds, but it opened a lot of people's eyes to the atrocities of war.

A lot of the "not this again" or "this is going to be a problem" is coming from people with ulterior motives. Why on earth would Kerry or the Democrats want to sweep any of these charges under the rug without discrediting them? Such a posture is inviting the Repigs to slowly work their insidious smear, allowing it to seep into the consciousness of people who don't pay attention. People don't pay attention. Unfortunately dirt (lies) seems to get their attention as the tabloids prove.

Also these smear tactics will be used on not only Kerry and other veterans, but on every Democrat. People are fooling themselves if they believe the Swifties aren't ready with lies to smear whomever challenges their power structure. When Murtha made his withdrawal announcement, they hit. Look at the crazy stories that have been printed about Al Gore in the last week. This is tame compared to what they are prepared to do. There are hundreds of corporate media-owned local papers (some are RW rags) willing to spread their lies. Kerry's experience and willing to take them on is an extremely good thing!

[karynnj]

5. Kerry's experience and willing to take them on is an extremely good thing!

As you said. The completely weird thing is that the same people who have yelled that he didn't fight back are the loudest. What's also weird is some of the people who question Kerry's anti-war efforts who are very anti-Iraq. Sounds like they are concerned about their guy's chances.

[ginnyinWI]

7. hm--very telling that.

They do sound foolish. They scream that they want us out of the war, or want a strong Dem, or want whatever, and Kerry is doing it already, but nope, not good enough coming from him. I've seen it over and over around DU.

[ProSense]

8. Weird is right!

People are blinded by motive, saying that Vietnam is irrelevant. Unbelievable!

[karynnj]

9. May have something to do with their favorite candidate

who stayed in the military through VN, the 80s etc. I think it stems from the observation that Kerry's Iraq position is a mature version of his incredible 1971 position. They've insisted Clark is anti-war, but his position isn't that simple either and he hasn't yet been willing to admit the truth about the situation in Iraq.

[JohnKleeb]

11. I think plain ignorance could be it too

I don't know how old the poster that said it was but it's obvious from people I have talked to that were in Vietnam or had family and friends there that it is impossible to forget. I know Kerry will never forget Vietnam because many of his friends never came home sadly.

[fedupinBushcountry]

12. You would think

we were in freeperville at some of the ignorant responses I have read in the last few days. I know now why their candidates loss, their tone alone would turn me off.

I am so pissed at some right now that if I posted it would either be deleted or I would be banned. I cannot believe how ignorant and downright hateful some are here on DU.

[JohnKleeb]

13. All the hatred I see saddens me

I guess that's why I feel that I've gone "moderate" though the thing is I have the same views as I always did by and large but I really do think that at heart most people are basically good though we're all flawed in some way.

[fedupinBushcountry]

14. Kleeb

these types don't really know what they are, they just jump on a bandwagon blindly. They are the same that think Dkos is an A-1 liberal when in reality he borders centrist. They don't think about what they say and they don't care who they hurt, they are ignorant and nothing but whiners. They complain about Dems more often then they do about the corrupt party that put us in this hole. They put the republican-lite label on Dems when in reality they are the real republican-lites because they act just like them.

[JohnKleeb]

16. Yep

Didn't Kos give feminists shit sometime? I was upset at his anti environmentalist bullshit as well and of course his arrogance disgusts me. It's interesting when I thought I was far left I wasn't as tolerant and understanding of different view points as I am now. They are republican lites honestly because they like the GOP leadership want to promote hatred in order to win elections. Saw a thread the other day asking if we had groups waiting to swift boat the GOP 2008 nominee. Swiftboating is lying about a person's character and what they have done in their lives. Make no mistake I will support ads that criticize the GOP nominee in 2008 but I will not support lies in order to win. I think the extreme poles in politics have more in common with each other those they denounce as being like their enemy.

[fedupinBushcountry]

17. I saw that thread

and said :wtf: I think some even nominated it. How disgusting that they would want to use such a disgusting tactic. They don't even understand what is behind swiftboating. Just proves how lame they really are.

[JohnKleeb]

18. Exactly

Swiftboating is about lying about someone's character and actions. As much as I hate John McCain's actions as of late, I would be furious if people representing our nominee and party went around saying that his war time service wasn't honorable and he was a pussy for not escpaing the Hanoi Hilton. It's sad really all the hatred out there that the two sides have for each other. That's why I want Kerry because I think he could reunite this country.

[fedupinBushcountry]

19. I watched

Going up River tonight for the umpteenth time, but it was my way to honor Memorial Day. He is definitely a uniter. Since his days of the war and his anti-war activities he has always asked the right questions and has given reasonable solutions.

At the end of the movie is the song "The Sun" it was written for him and in it it says the sun will come around again, and that alone gives me hope that maybe more people will wake up to the real John Kerry. We so need his goodness and caring to make this country right and good again.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Going Up River is such a great movie

I like watching Saving Private Ryan on Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and 4th of July. The story may be fiction but it's so moving. I really do think Kerry could unite this country. I think conservatives and Republicans would like him if they understood he's a good guy who would restore our reputation in the world and not run the debt to record highs.

[beachmom]

26. "The Sun" is on REM's most recent album

There is another great line:

"I wish the followers would lead"

I like that because it is a challenge to all of us supporters to do our part, too. And it goes along with what Kerry has said in recent commencement speeches, saying we need young people more than ever to work in service to the country.

So, is that definitely true? That Michael Stipe of REM wrote the song especially for John Kerry? That is way cool if that's true.

God, for such a "loser", a lot of rockers have written songs for Kerry. I have that Foo Fighters CD - In your honor, which was dedicated to John Kerry. When I first listened to it I thought it was too hard rock for me. Then Katrina happened. I needed to hear screaming, and that album most totally delivered. Plus the last song on CD 1 is just a great rock song.

[beachmom]

30. Still can't definitively find whether the song was written for JK

But here are the lyrics:

I want the sun to shine on me
I want the truth to set me free
I wish the followers would lead
With a voice so strong it could knock me to my knees

Hold on world 'cause you don't know what's coming
Hold on world 'cause I'm not jumping off
Hold onto this boy a little longer
Take another trip around the sun

If I jumped into the ocean to believe
If I climbed a mountain would I have to reach?
Do I even dare to speak?--to dream?--Believe?
Give me a voice so strong
I can question what I have seen

Hold on world 'cause you don't know what's coming
Hold on world 'cause I'm not jumping off
Hold onto this boy a little longer
Take another trip around the sun

Around the sun
Around the sun
Around the sun

Let my dreams set me free.
Believe. believe.
Now now now now now now

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858510806

[beachmom]

31. Found it. No, the song was not originally written for JK

Here's an interview I found with REM's band manager. I like what he says:

JP: R.E.M. contributed one song to "Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry" (a newly released documentary film from filmmaker George Butler) - I assume you've all seen that movie?

BD: Yeah, we have. ... It was kind of unusual how it happened (that R.E.M. contributed the title track to "Around the Sun" to the film). That song was sent by their music superviser who's a friend of ours and loved the song, to the director (Butler). ... and he heard it and he decided to put it at the end titles. And it fits like it was written for it. It was written a few years ago in Vancouver, and it had nothing to do with John Kerry. But when you see the movie, it's uncanny how the song, the words, the tone and the way he uses it in the end titles - it's pretty remarkable. All the other music in the movie is period music, the whole movie takes place during the Vietnam era. But (the movie) ends, and they use this song, and it's the only contemporary thing used. And we were thrilled to have let them have it. And it's the week our record comes out, and (the movie) actually opens tonight. So it's a lot of nice little coincidences.

JP: What were your thoughts on the film?

BD: What I thought was - for me, (I was) in high school during Vietnam - it cleared up a whole lot of history for me. It taught me a lot. I've always known about Vietnam, studied it to a certain extent in college and been pretty aware about it. But this had a whole lot of footage from the era; it showed Kerry as a very young guy, 24-25 years old. And there's a lot of stuff that never has been used anywhere before, that's been in the vaults for years. And it's just a really interesting, informative film. And it reinforced my impression of the candidate.

JP: Do you think it'll have dissenters?

BD: Oh, I'm sure it will. In America, there's always that. (But) it's a very classy movie. ... It's not a Michael Moore piece. This movie is as different from "Fahrenheit 9/11" as George Butler is as different from Michael Moore. They just don't have the same style. George Butler is more like Kerry. He's a somewhat patrician guy from the Northeast. So he's got a different style than Michael Moore. So it's not a grenade-throwing movie at all - it's just informative. It's kind of dry - kind of like history. So I don't think it's going to make the kind of impact and splash that "Fahrenheit 9/11" did. And I don't think it intends to. I think it's supposed to be more of a thoughtful reflection on the time and on Kerry.

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/100504/roc_20041005017.shtml
(must register)

[fedupinBushcountry]

34. I misspoke

I think when it first came out, some had said that so I have searched like you and I am wrong. But anyway as the band manager says "t's uncanny how the song, the words, the tone and the way he uses it in the end titles - it's pretty remarkable. "


OT- I found the link about Tommy Franks and posted it in that thread.

[beachmom]

35. Saw that -- that was great

Now anybody says Kerry can't corroborate atrocities he spoke of from Winter Soldiers, I'll just say Tommy Franks said it was "undeniable" that they did occur.

On the song -- I thought it was written for him it was so apt. But really, the band was obviously thrilled to have their song featured in the film. I will ALWAYS associate that song with JK, and that's really what is most important.

[ray of light]

32. we need to fight back assertively with TRUTH.

we have enough truth that there is no reason to lie.

[ProSense]

15. It's ridiculous!

I keep responding to these fools because it's a great opportunity to post the facts. This one poster keeps repeating the same thing over and over, I respond with a different fact most of the time.

[ginnyinWI]

6. I used to not question anything I read in the newspaper

or saw on TV. I figured that "they" would tell it like it is. I think that's where a lot of people are--they just trust the media to do its job.

Now I'm a skeptic--and it's a good thing. I question the media and I question stuff politicians say, with notable exceptions, of course! ;) I especially question statements put out by Repubs and Bushies--you have to. I realized just how much I do this now when my husband commented, "you know, being around you has even made me cynical about the news--and I never was before!"

But like I said, it's all good--everyone should be! :)

[karynnj]

10. I was one who felt that if I read mutiple papers, magazines and books,

the truth would be easy to figure out - I ignored the possibility of collusion.

[ray of light]

27. all of you are making excellent points.

Furthermore, they're standing up and laying down a line in the sand that no veteran will be swiftboated again.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Could you enlighten me......in saying this.....

"unaware that ALL of Clark's record would have been under attack. Millitary service is less open and public than Congress, so they would have a lot to distort - some of which started to bubble up in 2004 before he quit."

Like what? :shrug:

[ProSense]

21. Someone actually started another thread

on Kerry and the Swifties.

[JohnKleeb]

22. Agh

Lovely.

[Mass]

23. I think on the contrary, the noise is to prevent a new Kerry run

from people who did not want Kerry to run in 2000 either.

They obviously did not create the SBVT of course, but, since they have been out, these people have been agitating on the boards trying to prove Kerry did not handle it well (since the first day). They are the only ones who still care. For most people, this story is irrelevant at this point.

I love the guy that says that they have to be discredited. They have been at this point, so what is the goal of this thread except to attack Kerry.

[ProSense]

24. Two different matters

The NYT article is different from the stupid DU bashing threads. I agree with Karyn about the NYT article. In fact, JK has it posted at his site: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom

The DU threads OTH are started by people with ulterior motives.

[Mass]

25. Kerry initiated the article. there is no doubt about that.

[zann725]

28. The Repugs are really UNimaginative. If something 'works' once...

they ALWAYS use it again, and again. (The old "repeat it over and over" syndrome.) Take for example the recent "Watergate" scandal. (Sometimes, of course, it backfires on them.)

As it will with Kerry THIS time around. It appears they're doing it again, because it worked before, and he didn't properly fight-back soon enough. And also, MOST IMPORTANTLY, because he appears to be seriously considering 'running' in '08, and the size of their assault mirrors the degree of their Fear of his possible winning chances this time around.

I say, 'bring it on Swifties!' (Yawn.)

[emulatorloo]

29. Well, many forget that the Swifties are suing Kerry for libel and slander

sorry for the winger source, but it give you a sense of their RW BS

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=9627

Vietnam Vets File Lawsuit Against John Kerry
by Michael P. Tremoglie
Posted Oct 12, 2005

The former presidential candidate who, during his election campaign, proudly contrasted his military service during the Vietnam War with that of President Bush's National Guard service - and who once led an organization of Vietnam veterans protesting the war in Vietnam - is being sued by some Vietnam veterans.

The Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation is a plaintiff along with Red, White, and Blue Productions, and Vietnam veteran turned journalist Carlton Sherwood, in a defamation action against current Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and Tony Podesta, who was Kerry's Pennsylvania campaign manager.

The lawsuit, filed in Philadelphia, claims that Kerry and Podesta libeled, slandered, and caused financial harm to the plaintiffs as they sought to prevent the presentation of Sherwood's documentary movie Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal before the 2004 presidential election.

The lawsuit states:

Sherwood established plaintiff Red, White, and Blue productions an independent film company which produced the documentary Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal....This documentary tells the story of Kerry's involvement with the VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) and his participation in the so-called "Winter Soldier" investigation...Stolen Honor also reports that...Kerry testified before the United States Senate that during the Winter Soldier investigation Vietnam veterans testified to war crimes...not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day to day basis with full awareness of officers at all levels of command...in fact the stories told by participants in the Winter Solider investigation were outrageous and slanderous falsehoods against Vietnam veterans...Stolen Honor accurately reported that Kerry's statements.. were lies concocted by antiwar activists...Kerry knew this testimony was false...Vietnam veterans including former POW's had been falsely tarred...Sherwood produced Stolen Honor to bring this otherwise ignored history to light ...and to explain the public sense of betrayal felt by many Vietnam veterans- particularly among former POW's - against Kerry and others who built their reputations slandering America's Vietnam veterans.

The lawsuit continues by saying that the movie received its initial funding entirely from Pennsylvania veterans. It asserts that Stolen Honor points out Kerry's false allegations were used by the North Vietnamese to threaten and demoralize the approximately 700 POW's in North Vietnam. Stolen Honor told this history through interviews with some POW's including a Medal of Honor recipient and one who recounted how his interrogator went through Kerry's statements and told him that Kerry admitted he was a war criminal and deserved punishment.

The lawsuit states that the plaintiffs had a contract with Sinclair Broadcasting to air the documentary and a contract with the Baederwood Theater of Abington, Pa., to show the movie. It further claims there was a coordinated conspiracy by, "defendants Kerry, Podesta and others acting in concert with and on behalf of Kerry, to discredit and silence Sherwood and Stolen Honor, through a campaign of knowing, deliberate, and malicious falsehoods about Sherwood and Stolen Honor and of illegitimate and malicious threats directed at Sinclair and Baederwood." The suit states these actions by Kerry et. al. caused Sinclair to show only portions of the movie and Baederwood to refuse to show it.

This may be the first time in American history that a presidential candidate was sued for actions taken by him and his campaign during an election. It may also be the first time that an antiwar activist was sued, if only tangentially, for allegations made about American military personnel.

Democrats did indeed respond vehemently to Stolen Honor. Sinclair, according to a contemporaneous Newsweek report, canceled their broadcast after being intimidated by Democrats. For example, a Democrat New York State Comptroller sent a letter to Sinclair criticizing the broadcast. The Comptroller was the sole trustee for the NY State Common Retirement Fund, which owned 250,000 shares of Sinclair stock.

The Baederwood Theater received phone calls threatening boycotts if it showed the movie. Ominous phone calls were responsible for a suburban Philadelphia conference center canceling another presentation scheduled after Baederwood.

Although the Kerry campaign denied any involvement with these efforts, an October 15, 2004 email from Podesta to Kerry activists called Carlton Sherwood a, "disgraced former journalist, right-wing propagandist and apologist for cult-leader Sun Myung Moon." Podesta urged Kerry workers to ".... take action ...against this garbage.... let the theater know that, as a member of the community, you object to ...this film ...they should not allow "Stolen Honor" to be shown on their screen."

If this lawsuit accomplishes nothing else, it will be that the heroes of Vietnam are finally condemning the lies told about them during the war. If nothing else results from this, it will be that those who served their country meritoriously, despite great controversy, despite the adversity, those who truly deserve to be called the Greatest Generation, are once again serving their country by telling the truth about Vietnam.


Mr. Tremoglie is a freelance writer whose work has appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Philadelphia Daily News, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Insight magazine, and Front Page magazine among others. He is the former Vice President of the Pennsylvania Association of Scholars, a member of ISI, and a member of the American Society of Criminology.

[blm]

33. Your concern is TOUCHING, as always.... Please let me know what your worry

is about the lies that the swifts told that you think might be damaging to Kerry - I'm all ears, and looking forward to your list of areas that concern you.

[politicasista]

36. They visciously smeared not just a war hero,

but a public servant and his family. And people bought into them. The people I talk to like Kerry, but in their eyes, unless something "drastically" changes, people want someone who will fire back on the spot, someone who is honest, sincere (i.e. Bill's I feel your pain), and someone who thinks on their feet (yes, I saw the debate and thought Kerry did well too, but the perceptions are still out there).

I did what you guys do, that is post facts to one that said (she's a Biden supporter) that Kerry didn't bring up the environment during the campaign. I sent the link that proved otherwise to no avail.

I always say well, the media edited this and that out or ignored the story, but no one will respond. It's almost like they may think that I am solely blaming the media instead of the candidate.:shrug:

[ProSense]

37. First of all, look at how ridiculous this is

people want someone:

First-- "who will fire back on the spot"

Most of us have spent the last several days pointing to the information in the Research forum that counters the fallacy that JK didn't fire back on the spot. He did!

May 4, 2004. The Kerry campaign held a press conference directly after the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" event. (Above are, r-l, Wade Sanders, Del Sandusky and Drew Whitlow). Senior Advisor Michael Meehan said, "The Nixon White House attempted to do this to Kerry, and the Bush folks are following the same plan." "We're not going to let them make false claims about Kerry and go unanswered," Meehan said. He said his first instinct was to hold a press conference with an empty room where veterans could testify to their time spent in the military with George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

The campaign provided an information package which raised significant questions about "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." Spaeth Communications, which hosted the event, "is a Republican headed firm from Texas which has contributed to Bush's campaign and has very close ties to the Bush Administration." Lead organizer John O'Neill, a Republican from Texas, "was a pawn of the Nixon White House in 1971." Further some of the people now speaking against Kerry had praised him in their evaluation reports in Vietnam.

John Dibble, who served on a swift boat in 1970, after Kerry had left, was one of the veterans at the Kerry event. He said of Kerry's anti-war activities that at the time, "I didn't like what he was doing." In retrospect, however, Dibble said, "I probably should have been doing the same thing...probably more of us should have been doing that." He said that might have meant fewer names on the Vietnam Memorial and that Kerry's anti-war activities were "a very gutsy thing to do."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=358&topic_id=2555&mesg_id=2555


It stopped them cold, until the MSM launched its onslaught in August. Then Kerry called them out and issued a direct challenge to Bush:

Kerry defends war record

Aug. 19: John Kerry responds directly to attacks on his Vietnam military service Thursday, accusing President Bush of relying on front groups to challenge his war record.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=40a0d9b1-0386-41ef-bc0e-904bcc95946c&

Text:

Of course, the President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: "Bring it on."

I'm not going to let anyone question my commitment to defending America—then, now, or ever. And I'm not going to let anyone attack the sacrifice and courage of the men who saw battle with me.

And let me make this commitment today: their lies about my record will not stop me from fighting for jobs, health care, and our security – the issues that really matter to the American people...

Second-- "someone who is honest, sincere (i.e. Bill's I feel your pain)"

Reality: Bill Clinton was impeached for lying about infidelity!

JK OTH, is known for honesty and sincerity, despite the current spin by detractors and the RW.

What’s the Best Kept Secret About John Kerry?

Voted against the Defense of Marriage Act
Got the endorsement of Lee Iacocca
Spearheaded probe of BCCI, the CIA’s favorite bank
Vowed to filibuster ANWR drilling bill
Founded VA watchdog group Vietnam Vets of America
Was Time Magazine’s ‘Honest Man in Politics’ in 96
Has a 0% rating from the Christian Coalition
Gets an F-grade from the NRA
Led Senate hearings on Iran-Contra scandal
Sponsored Clean Money bill for Congressional races
Gave others credit for legislation he wrote

http://www.redefeatbush.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=20

In fact, it was during the campaign when factcheck.org kept stating "well it's true, but depends" about everything that has now proven true! When the MSM is not playing games on matters of serious consequence (Katrina, Dubai) they quote JK authoritatively!


Third -- "someone who thinks on their feet (yes, I saw the debate and thought Kerry did well too, but the perceptions are still out there)."

Did they miss the entire campaign and everything that's gone on since? The disclaimer you've added reeks of denial on their part. One of the things I've always noticed is the "good one" comments. There are tons of them logged here at DU, and some people who contnually make them, revert back to the same inexplicable stance a day later. Kerry cannot be responsible for people's comprehension, retention or attention span. It's simply not possible to force people to hold on to a view they expressed a day earlier.

There are plenty of people to win over, people who don't have these problems, and those are the folks that he has to work on. The others, that vacilate, day to day, month after month, two years later, and will continue to do so, I'm afraid the best hope is to catch them on a day they're on his side. I'll cross my fingers that the stars are align.

[politicasista]

38. Wow, that is excellent

I will pass this on. Thanks ProSense. :toast:

[blm]

39. People either UNDERSTAND and care about FACTS or they don't.

A great number of people know that Kerry was a strong candidate. Those on the internet who can't COMPREHEND simple facts, and instead twist everything they hear to make themselves right are too absurd to lose sleep over.

I think Kerry haters are really CORRUPTION-LOVERS. They hate him BECAUSE there isn't a person out there in America who has done more to expose corruption and he makes THEM feel inadequate, so they have to lie about him. THAT is human nature - and something tells me you know that already.

[politicasista]

40. I know that

I wasn't dissing Kerry, honest.

That's just what I would always hear during the election. I did what sandnsea and you suggested, which was present the facts and not the lies. I didn't fall for any spin, but others did.

It's like we are the only ones that understand the media's role in the 2000, 2004 election, but others don't no matter how many times you have to explain it to them. :shrug: