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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 12:45 AM
Original message
MACRO Submission question......
How much editing is ok? I note a few submissions converted to grey scale, and I suspect a few filters have probably been used. Nothing devious, to be sure. The reason I ask is that I have a few pics which are edited for effect.

Please comment, I will abide by the consensus. My personal feeling is that all pics are valid. Cropping, grey scale conversion, filters are common, if we accept these techniques other manipulations should be ok, let the group be the judge.

If not, please post so I can alter what I plan to post.

Thanks...........
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't see a problem
with some editing. I don't think there is anything in the rules against it. I'm sure more people will answer you, most would know better than I do. Though if you are in doubt you can always post some in a thread and ask. Besides all of us love looking at other peoples work, contest or not.



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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Agreed.
And that is the real point of the 'contest.' Learning more about photography, both behind the lens and in the dark room, or in the digital age, behind the key board.
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alkaline9 Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. I feel like a little editing is good for almost all photos...
...so I see no problem with it. I was thinking the same though... I think the rules should be that you can modify the photo, but you cannot use more than one photo in your final submission... but filters are ok. I see filters as not a lot different than lenses. Not a lot different than using different developing techniques with film.
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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You mean only one photo to be edited
No combining of photos to form a final submission, take the original photo, edit as you like, and the final submission is acceptable....... Correct?
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alkaline9 Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm not on the rules committee, but yes :-)
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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Actually, there is no rules committee.
I emailed the originator of the contest and asked for an opinion about editing, and he suggested that I post the question to the forum. I agree with you, keep the rules to a minimum, after all the 'contest' is about fun and learning photography. What ever you can do with a single pic is acceptable....... However, it would be interesting to see the 'before' and 'after' shots. I have learned a bunch seeing my pics edited by photo veterans in this forum.
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. I think someone actually did combine photos
Edited on Thu Jan-19-06 06:28 AM by mutley_r_us
late last year sometime (and won BTW ;) ) Check with mogster, the host, and see what he thinks. The rules of this contest have always been pretty loose and usually decided by that month's particular host. I don't think it's been a problem in the past.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. Any limitations on entries can be specified in the contest submissions
thread. Most scans and digital camera files are "approximations" and need some tweaking in order to "print" correctly on the average monitor, just as with negatives and paper. For the present, my own goal is to just get a decently true copy of my slides on the monitor or the printer. But photography, as an art form, has always included "special effects" type processing. I think is a matter of "truth in advertising" that photos which have been significantly (whatever that means) altered be identified as such.

Art Wolfe set off a controversy within the nature photographers community when he modified some images without explicitly saying that he had done so.

From http://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/dec98/wolfe4.html
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"In Migrations, I embraced the technology that was available to me," he says, "and I took the art of the camera to its limits. This was not a moral issue. It was just that in the beginning, we were naive. We didn't use identification. That is the sole issue. Photography has never been an accurate recording of what is out there. For years photographers have manipulated images by using different lenses, filters, films and in the darkroom."

Critics caught Wolfe by surprise by crying foul, saying digital imaging had no place in a nature book. Wolfe argued that the book was an art book-he says so in the book's foreword-and that the controversy was blown out of proportion because of one simple fact: he didn't identify the images he altered.

Galen Rowell, a contemporary of Wolfe's as an accomplished nature photographer, was among those who criticized Migrations. In a five-page letter to Wolfe, Rowell alternately scolded his friend and professed admiration for his work. His bottom line, though: "Don't do anything you wouldn't feel comfortable having fully revealed in a caption."

Others, such as Gary Braasch, chair of the North American Nature Photography Association, were steadfast: "Nature photography is one of the last bastions of pictures most people accept as real. Those who lie about the reality of their photos are taking advantage of everyone else and undercutting the basis of all our success."

True to form, when the debate was white hot, Wolfe always stood front and center to take on any naysayers, as he did in photography workshops around the nation, where he debated against naturalists and other wildlife photographers.

Today, the debate continues-- Atlantic Monthly recently ran a 20-page article on the ethics of digitally altering photos-but Wolfe has put it behind him. "I hated the controversy but was very glad people noticed," Wolfe says. "I wanted to capture spirits and uplift, and I won't apologize for that." Ever since Migrations, he has identified every image in a book that has been digitally altered.
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Some images are "obviously" altered, but when there is any chance of confusion, it is a matter of simple candor to say what was done.

And beyond all that, when "special effects" are involved in producing an image, the rest of us can benefit by learning about the techniques used, and learning is one of the reasons most of us are here.
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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks, I agree.
Posts should include the settings used to take the pic and what ever editing was done. If need be, at request, the original photo could also be posted for inspection. Seeing the original and the final can be very enlightening, as I have seen with the few pics which I have offered for editing here in this forum.

The bottom line is we are all interested in learning, and I have learned so much in such a short period of time here in this forum.
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F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. There have been a number of "discussions" on this
Has never been a 100% consensus. Basically passed the buck to the "host" to call it. I'm posting too much... people are probably getting sick of seeing my name. I think you're good to go with anything you want in what you are describing. Until someone else comes along and tells me I'm full of shit...

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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Nah, your not posting too much
I appreciate your insight, as I am sure others do as well. As for the 'FOS', as we call it in colon and rectal surgery land, if confronted, take a relaxing high colonic and come back posting free of burden.... :evilgrin:
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Don't feel you are "posting too much" unless
you have carpal tunnel syndrome or are getting a lot of "Shut The Fuck Up!" replies. I, for one, enjoy your observations and comments.
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. F.Gordon, you could never post too much.
:yourock: :P
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lakemonster11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. Back a couple of months ago we had a discussion about this.
That's actually what led to our last challenge topic (extreme manipulation).

There was no real decision, but most people seemed okay with any type of traditional or digital manipulations, unless specified otherwise by the contest host.

It doesn't bother me if people want to enter heavily-manipulated photos. Personally, I probably wouldn't enter a picture that I had altered to the point that it didn't look like a photo anymore (like those in my "photo-based digital art" thread), but that's mostly because I think it would make it more difficult for people to compare all of our photos if one or two of the thirty looked like paintings or line-drawings. I wouldn't have any qualms at all about using any filters or effects that could be replicated with the right physical equipment.

Like Art Wolfe (in the above article), I don't think it's disingenuous for a photographer to manipulate something digitally or in the traditional darkroom without labeling the print as altered. (Unless it's supposed to be photojournalism---there are definite limits to what's okay in that field). If he or she is asked whether something is manipulated and lies about it, then there's a problem, but I don't think it's necessary to volunteer the information. Of course, for our purposes, it's always nice when people share their techniques so that we can all learn something.

So...my opinion is that you should enter the picture you want to enter, even if it's digitally altered. As long as it fits the category, it's not going to bother me.

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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thanks, I think we are coming to a consensus on this topic
Most have posted the same opinion, but note that prior discussions failed to arrive at a conclusion.

I would suggest the following for future posting.

"Submissions are to be a singular photograph, alterations are allowed, unless expressly forbidden by the originator of the photo contest. Stating the camera, lens and settings, in addition to what ever alteration was made, is requested for each post."

Thanks for the reply........
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