** QUESTION: Should people be allowed to change their contest entries? **

[regnaD kciN]

Today, we've had not one but two members who submitted one image decide to request another image be substituted for it, and I have no idea how to respond.

In the past, this has only come up on one or two isolated occasions, and was dealt with on an informal basis by the entrant contacting the member running the contest via PM. In each case (or at least the ones I know about), the substitution was approved.

This time, I really don't know if that's the right policy or not. We have had many "pick my entry" polls, so people could ask for feedback before submitting their entry, but in at least one case here, it seems the decision was made on the basis of feedback for a "reject" in the comments thread more than a day after they had submitted their image.

On the one hand, I really don't want people to have to stick with an entry with which they're unhappy, and my initial inclination would be to allow them to substitute the new image. On the other hand, I think one should settle on one's entry before submitting it. Furthermore, I worry that, if substitutions are allowed to be made as a matter of policy, what we're going to see in the near future is a wholesale changing of images in the middle of the submission period, as people look at their other competitors and decide "that photo would probably beat mine, I better try something else with a totally different approach." I don't want a situation where we get, say, twenty-nine images, then, before the thirtieth is received, a significant number of the entrants post a substitute image based on what they've sized up of "the competition," a few of those then either go back to their original image or put up a third one based on what others have changed, etc. :crazy:

So, I've decided to let the group membership have a voice in it. This poll will be active through Wednesday at 6:00 P.M. Pacific Time. If the consensus is for allowing changes, the two requests I have already received (plus any others made before submissions are closed) will be allowed; if not, their original submissions will be entered in the preliminaries.

[Blue_In_AK]

1. I haven't voted yet, but...

...I think substitutions should be allowed, but only within a short period of time after making the original submission, maybe 12 hours or 24 at the most.

[MissHoneychurch]

2. I am one of the two who wants to change the entry

As said shortly in the submission thread, I just got the second picture today. Since I don't have a digital camera I have to get a film full first before I see if a picture turned out good or not. I was OK with the picture entered first but I am not so happy with it anymore. I like the second one a lot better. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of the entries.

I believe there is no harm in changing the entry as long as the submission thread is open. It shouldn't happen all the time but there are times when you suddenly find a picture fitting the topic better or you like a new picture better than the one entered.

And as you said yourself it isn't happening very often.

[superconnected]

3. I think they should be able to.

This isn't THAT formal of a contest. It's still small enough that we should be able to allow for that without it causing too much extra trouble for the person running the contest.

I think after submissions close though, that should be it.

[CC]

4. I would let them change it

as long as too many people aren't doing it. How many is too many may be up to the host. If it gets to the point where it is every contest and more than a couple then the issue should be reviewed. Though I have to add in the end it should be up to that months host. It can get confusing when setting up the polls when you have to weed through a lot of changes. This coming from a person that can mess up when copying and pasting.

Maybe we should add a line in the rules that changes are a hassle and to please try very hard to be sure of your entry before posting it. It will be up to each month's host as to whether they will allow changes or not so it is best to assume not.

[graywarrior]

5. Sure, why not.

I'm not so anal.

[Call Me Wesley]

6. Sure, until the polls are up in the Lounge.

Perhaps they just can rename their new picture link with the old picture link. :hi:

[insane_cratic_gal]

7. I don't think it's a problem unless

Someone just throws a picture up to reserve a spot until a better one comes along then makes a request to change it. There are only 30 spots, recently they seem pretty coveted spots. We can solve that by expanding the contest to a time deadline vs an amount. Since it fills up seemingly quicker then the time span.

That is obviously not the case here, but I could see how the system could be abused.

Since DU is a respectable place and it's done infrequently I vote yes

[Ms. Toad]

9. This last is the only (minor) concern I have...

Unless a minor miracle happens I won't be entering the contest this month. I have had my picture in mind for a couple of weeks. I patrol a trail which has three paths visible at several points along the way - Bike & Hike, train, and canal. I've seen it in the evening light, and am imagining the morning light would be even more spectacular. I haven't had the time to go out and capture it in any daylight at all, let alone the morning light I want for my picture. With one slot left I almost certainly won't have the opportunity. Since I enjoy participating in these contests it makes me a little sad.

On the one hand, permitting changes encourages rushing for the slots because I can just throw up any old picture and save myself a slot before they're all taken. On the other hand, if changes aren't permitted perhaps the slots might not fill up so fast because we all know we're stuck with whatever our first entries are.

And....playing devil's advocate...those of us who have hosting sites where we can swap photos out without changing file names can switch without having to submit a new entry. :)

Bottom line - its not a big deal either way to me.

[intheflow]

8. I can't help it!

I am powerless against any poll that gives "Robb is a dingbat" as a choice!

But if my name was Diebold and I could have two votes, I'd vote for #1 - YES, let people chance their submission up to the submission phase is closed. The Consitution isn't riding on this photo contest, it's just supposed to be for fun, and we're bringing it to the Lounge, for pity sake. So why not let people resubmit if it makes them feel better? It's a very small detail given the crapola we have to sort through every single day living under this tyrant government.

[Whoa_Nelly]

10. Voted YES. How about an entry can be changed within two days

after the submission thread is full/closed. Maybe run a thread for resubmissions during that time, and then the person running the contest takes those resumissions, and the prelims begin. Figure that way, those who want to make a change, use a different photo, have a space to do this, and it is limited to only those who originaaly submitted photos in the original/now closed thread. Once the resubmit is in, then it cannot be changed, and those who do not resubmit have their original posted photo in the prelims.

Just makes sense so the host of the contest can then keep it pretty well-organized.

[Ms. Toad]

12. Although permitting or barring changes is ok with me,

when all of the submission slots are grabbed as quickly as they have been recently I think the option you are suggesting would decrease the quality of photography in our contests.

It would encourage people to grab a slot with any old photo just to be sure they can get a slot. Currently, if anyone contemplates slot grabbing they are at least forced to risk that the thread will be full before they submit a replacement photo - that risk probably encourages folks to be reasonably sure of their photo before submitting it. Setting aside a swap period for those who managed to grab a slot takes away that risk, and I suspect that some of those would end up sliding into the contest because the best intentions of the photographer to submit a replacement photograph were lost along the way somewhere. Essentially, it would become a race to reserve a spot - rather than a race to submit a quality photograph (as it is now). (Permitting changes while the submission thread is open has a bit of this flavor - but it is less explicit about it.)

[Whoa_Nelly]

17. have changed my mind...some

Perhaps the only allowance for photo change would be to re-enter their original photo as re-edited. I know I could do this with my current entry...there's always room for improvement :)

[NashVegas]

11. I Voted 'Maybe' But Really Lean 'No'

For the second reason you stated.

We've made it clear that this is to be a friendly competition, which is to say, not really competitive. Switching out for *competitive* reasons makes it more of a competition-competition, in which case some ground rules should apply.

I don't think it's that big a deal if the person who wants to do a switch is not straying from their original subject.

[JeffR]

13. So I wake to a world gone mad...

I know regnaD kciN isn't grinding an axe here, but I'll grind a few.

No-one is looking at this from a host's POV. People have to remember that these things take time and effort on the part of the host. Substitutions just pile on more work and open the door to mistakes.

The ethical issues of people being able to change their entries based on seeing what else is coming in are also a blow to the integrity of the contests. I know we're not dealing with life and death, cash prizes, or anything else really earth-shaking here, but imagine any other competition in any context that would allow entrants to submit one thing and change horses in midstream.

There hasn't been one photo contest I've entered where I haven't doubted the wisdom of my choice after making a submission, including the contest I won. Making that decision is the toughest part of the contest (other than taking a good photograph, of course); I'm unconvinced by any of the arguments advocating that everyone have an opportunity to unmake that decision on a whim.

It's a little shocking to me that the consensus is, "Yeah, sure, why not?". Changing the rules to allow this will change the nature of the contest permanently. This reminds me of HAVA - a good idea on paper, maybe, but a disaster in reality.

This issue should not be taken lightly. This should be polled and discussed again after this contest is over.

[NashVegas]

15. Thanks, Jeff

There are a lot of egos involved here, it's difficult to say what you just did in no uncertain terms.

What bothers me the most about it, in this particular case, is that the switch came after another poster thought outside of the box. Yes, the others who submitted after were free to look for something along those lines, but that's just the way it goes. If we want to be 100% free of this type of situation, the only way to avoid a scenario where people wait until the last possible hour to submit is to have blind entries. That's asking the host to do even more work.

[intheflow]

18. The only constant is change.

:evilgrin:

Jeff, you wrote,

It's a little shocking to me that the consensus is, "Yeah, sure, why not?". Changing the rules to allow this will change the nature of the contest permanently. This reminds me of HAVA - a good idea on paper, maybe, but a disaster in reality.

But that's assuming the rules are written in concrete. They are not, and entries have been changed in the past--rarely, but I'm pretty sure it happened once or twice. While you have a point about it being more work for the host, I think comparing it to HAVA is OTT. There is nothing of import riding on this contest, where, as you know, HAVA could impact our democracy (or what's left of it).

You have made me want to change my vote in this poll, however. I no longer vote "Robb is a dingbat" while leaning heavily toward a solid "Yes." Now I want to vote that it should be the host's choice. The month I hosted, for example, the contest came up right when I was scheduled to drive accross the country and has little access to email. A flood of changed enries would have totally messed me up. But even so... if it takes the host an extra day or two to post the contest, who would ever really know or care outside this group?

[JeffR]

22. OK, I was chuffed about my HAVA metaphor, but I'll concede that

it was a little melodramatic.:+

There have been changes made after-the-fact in the past, certainly. At the end of the day, I don't think that should have happened. It's a good thing that the rules have been kept elastic and can be overriden in certain circumstances, but what's at issue here is something that the idiots of the Reich Wing are fond of referring to as a slippery slope (God, I hate that phrase).

I certainly don't intend for my view on this to be taken as an indictment of the people who changed their entries this time, BTW. This was a gray area, after all, heretofore. I wish their entries well, sincerely. But at this point, if either of the "substituted" entries wins, if anyone who didn't change her or his entry feels somehow slighted, especially if her or his entry comes in second or third, I would completely sympathize. (No way my little opus will end up in the top three, so I think I can say this without fear of a "sour grapes" charge.:)

I think there's ample notice to everyone about contest deadlines, regnaD kciN being especially scupulous about such things. We know the drop-dead dates in advance, we know the theme, we have an opportunity to post polls of our possible entries, we have the chance to solicit feedback on our entries from friends and loved ones before making a final decision, and at the end, we agonize a little more, make our decision, and watch our little photo make its way in the world, or not.

I'm profoundly uncomfortable with the idea that someone can be allowed to put the bullet back in the gun and fire another. If anything, this practice would be an introduction - potentially - of ego into a contest remarkably unhindered by ego considerations currently. Again, I maintain I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it feels as if the neatness and simplicity of these contests is compromised by allowing this.

In closing, let me apologize for the casserole of similes I've used. A picture would have been worth a thousand words here.:eyes:

[intheflow]

31. Your concession leads to my concession...

at least in this point:

...it feels as if the neatness and simplicity of these contests is compromised by allowing this.

I concur! :hi:

[Samurai_Writer]

14. I voted no

For all the reasons the other posters listed above so eloquently. If you are think the photo you submitted is not the one you WANT to submit, then don't submit it in the first place. Of course, that means you might lose one of the coveted 30 slots, but such is life. I've never been satisfied with any photo I've submitted to a contest, but I don't think it's fair to the rest of us to have people change at the last minute. It will ruin the integrity of the contest, and it makes more work for the hosts, in my opinion.

[F.Gordon]

16. Should entries be rejected if they exceed 200K file size?

Or exceed 800 pixies in the longest/widest side? There are at least 7 that I count that exceed 200K in size and one that is waaaay over that.

The most important thing IMHO is the participation. Eventually there might be 4 prelim polls with entries going to 40 max. Actually, it could probably go to 40 now. I don't think that a Host/ess should have to "police" a contest. It's tough enough just to put it all together, post everytin', and keep it going.

I see most of the "rules" as more of a suggestion kinda' thing. I'm torn on this "rule" only because I think it makes it tougher for the Host/ess but I can understand if someone finds a different pic they like or if they snap a new one after they already entered. I truly don't believe that anyone has ever changed a pic after sizing up the competition.

I'm sorry. What were we talkin' bout?
:crazy:

[regnaD kciN]

21. What do you mean, "eventually"...?????

Eventually there might be 4 prelim polls with entries going to 40 max. Actually, it could probably go to 40 now.

The December "Extreme Processing" contest that we co-hosted went to four preliminaries, mainly because I couldn't find a mod to lock the submission thread after we received thirty entries, and, by the time I realized the problem, quite a few other people had submitted additional images. We decided to make an exception to the "thirty entries only" rule.

Ideally, for the most impartial contest, we'd have software that would allow more than ten entries in a poll (so there would only be one round), and that would hide the vote totals until you'd already voted (so that people wouldn't hop on a front-running bandwagon). But I wonder if such a contest would be as interesting to the Lounge Lizards -- I think they like the two-round format and the "horse race" nature of the polls. Of course, as I wrote once before, if we really wanted this to be a "serious" competition, we'd dispense with the public vote and bring in expert judges to pick the winner every month.

However, I'm thinking of really going outside "the way things are done" this time, and make it like Sundance, where one film wins the "People's Choice" award, and a different film (or the same one) can win a separate award issued by a jury. In short, I think it might be a good tradition to have the main "winner" (the one who gets the main recognition and gets to host the next contest) be awarded by Lounge Lizard vote, but allow the host to make their own separate "personal choice" award for the image they thought was the best.

[F.Gordon]

33. Would everyone be comfortable doing that?

Pick a pic that was their fave? I like the idea only cause' it would give the Host/ess a chance to do something other than copy/paste and herding all the cats into the barn. The only problem I see with this is that there might be accusations made that a host/ess picked their fave based on personal association and not on the merits of a photo.

For example... let's say you awarded superconnected the "Personal Choice" award. It could be that superconnected deserved that recognition but your personal association might have people grumbling and ranting round' the "water cooler".

Maybe we should try to have a "serious" competition one of these days. I know a few "pros" I could hit up and enlist as judges. Would just have to figure out some kinda' "prize" thing. That would be the hard part.

[JeffR]

23. File & image size - good point

something that needs to be made more prominent, maybe, in the rules (bold, italic, flashing text, whatever). I've broken the file size rule before, and having it pointed out to me was a tonic.

If we make this "lather-rinse-change shampoos" thing allowable, we're just creating a situation where someone (or more than one person, or all of us) can change a pic after sizing up the competition. I'm not saying that has already happened, just that this rule change would allow it to happen in future, and I don't think bad policy is Democratic, izall.

An aside: I'm very possibly a jerk in real life, but online - at least in the Group- I try to be a good citizen. I don't mean to be a shit-distrurber about this, but I think it's not a good thing at all. And the Photography Group is one of the few good things in my little difficult world; I don't mind change, but going down the "wrong path" with these contests would make me even more miserable than I already am.

[F.Gordon]

32. "Don't mess with my Karma"

O8)

Understood. You want something you can look to that can serve as a pleasant diversion from lifes crap bucket. I hear ya'..... feel the same way about the Group. "Port in the Storm" kinda' thing.

[insane_cratic_gal]

39. Is mine over?

I'm going through all of them to see which are and which are fine..

I think I'm okay but perhaps I misunderstood the limit

[TahitiNut]

40. "change a pic after sizing up the competition"

I thought about this ... and I don't know if it's a valid point. After all, don't the later entrants have this (dubious) 'advantage' already? Why is it a 'bad thing' for earlier entrants to have the same (dubious) 'advantage'? Wouldn't that mean it's not an advantage?

I've not 'weighed in' on the question of changing entries. It seems pretty clear to me that anyone could change their entry merely by replacing the image at the submitted URL ... and then what? The revised image file might merely be a more carefully cropped, balanced, saturated, noise-reduced version of the same original photograph. Would that constitute a 'change'? How about changing the Title of the image? Is that a 'change'?? (The Title could have a significant impact on the 'judging'.)

If there's no restriction, on the other hand, what's to stop someone from submitting a place-holder entry while shooting/editing what they intend to submit and then replacing the image file at the submitted URL at the last minute? Is that really a problem? How many times do folks get shut out of a contest because the number of entries reaches a limit?

Tempest in teapot, I think. It's not something I'd do ... but that's me. :shrug:

[Blue_In_AK]

19. I really don't like the picture you all picked for me in my poll...

...but I'm leaving it anyway, just to make it easy for the host. It doesn't matter to me if I get any votes. It will just confirm my suspicion that it wasn't the best picture of the bunch.

So there.

[JeffR]

26. This gets to the crux of the issue, IMO

We didn't pick your entry, you did. Most of us who voted, voted for a particular pic (I voted with the majority, by the way), but in the end, it was your decision.

In the end, it's each person's decision. But it's a decision we should each be allowed to make only once per contest. It's no more complicated than that, really.

[Blue_In_AK]

30. I guess I just don't see what you guys see in that photo...

:shrug: But I do agree with you. By the time we get to submissions, our minds should be made up. (Barring exigent circumstances, such as the people waiting for film shots to come back.)

[NashVegas]

34. What JeffR Said

This is why I don't post or participate in such threads. It might be interesting to do, for a novelty, sometime, but mainly I feel its important to learn to fine tune and trust your own instincts.

[Eurobabe]

20. I say no.

You pick your best shot and go with it. It's too tempting to see what others have submitted and change your entry to suit. (I don't think photography contests operate like that, do they?) Put a poll up and let people give you feedback...

JMHO.

[ConsAreLiars]

24. My view - The host makes up whatever rules s/he chooses.

And the fewer the better. That said, past practice has led to some useful guidelines that seem to make these contests work well. File and image size, for example, and alerting people that the contest entries might be shown in a post-contest group gallery, and requiring people to specifically state if they do not want their entry copied to such a gallery.

Hosts have generally followed past practice in areas where the "rules" are not explicitly written out, as with the substitutions issue, so the expectation is that the contest practice will remain pretty much the same unless the host explicitly declares a new policy.

Regarding substitutions in general, my view would be that they should be permitted. Instead of trying to write some comprehensive set of laws that cover every possible case where someone "might" act unfairly, wait until there is a real problem, and the group/contest process seems to be adversely impacted. Then have a discussion and maybe reach some agreement on how to handle whatever problem seems to have emerged. Maybe writing a new rule would be he answer, but as an anarcho-commie-hippie-pinko-utopian lefty, I'd see that as a temporary last resort.

All that left-libertarian stuff aside some rules do seem important, especially file and image size, since these are important in allowing others, especially dial-up users, to view the images and make the images fairly equally compare-able in terms of resource usage. But even here I would allow exceptions, like some stitched panoramas someone (ralps?) submitted that would have been about 40 pixels high if limited to 800 in the long dimension.

[JeffR]

25. I'll call your

"anarcho-commie-hippie-pinko-utopian lefty" and raise you one "immediate-ban-of all-handguns-and-the abolition-of the internal-combustion-engine-oh-and-by-the-way-Bush-to-the-Hague".

But I don't think anything is being advocated about instituting some Byzantine set of rules to govern the contests. I think one simple clarification is called for, though: once you've submitted something, that's your entry.

[ConsAreLiars]

27. Not a bad rule.

Simple and straightforward. I just haven't seen any problem, just people making substitutions for honest reasons, not to gain some unfair advantage in these contests. I don't see such a rule, which would prohibit good faith changes in order to prevent some possible bad faith substitutions, as being useful. But in any case, these "rules," as I see it, are pretty much up to the host. Any such rules should stated at the start of the contest.

But the main thing is that I see these as friendly games that take place within a supportive community. I see fewer rules and more trust in the good will and character of the participants as one of the ways in which this mutual respect and sense of community is both expressed and reinforced.

But, that said, in my view, the contest hosts should be free to make the contest rules as loose or tight or orthodox or bizarre as they choose. In fact, given the nature of groups like this, anyone who wants to set up a contest of any type with any kind of rules, with no regard to past practice, could do so. and then and post the entries into the lounge in contest form.

[JeffR]

28. I want to reiterate that I'm not being accusatory

of those who made substitutions this time. But I stand by the caveats I originally mentioned, because I believe they're a potential source of discord in the group, and I don't want to see that happen. And I still think this whole can of worms is avoidable by just making the simple specification that once weve committed to an entry, we've committed to it.

[ConsAreLiars]

29. I didn't mean to suggest that.

I think it was clear that you were concerned about preventing possible problems, not rectifying past ones. A goal I share, but my approach is different.

[superconnected]

35. as long as were talking about alternative entries...

Normally I don't do processing to my photos. If i do do anything, it's in paintbrush. Today, I edited this picture to take out one angel in an attempt to make it better. What do you guys think - better pic?

I also had to re-crop because the photo was uncentered without the second angel - both are my nieces btw.

[NashVegas]

36. Great Editing

And it looks like you just might get to host next month's contest :)

[JeffR]

37. Crisco's right, great editng

Don't think it's better this way, though. It's really a different photo entirely, just by subtracting one of the figures. But I like the dark angel/light angel contrast of the original better. It's a tremendously creative photograph.

[regnaD kciN]

38. I'm glad you decided not to make the change...

While that's an impressive job of editing (especially without using Photoshop), I find it takes the two figures to make it such a powerful image. To my mind, having two different angels makes it an open-ended narrative (why two angels? why one in black and one in white?). I, at least, find myself coming up with my own story to explain the image, which wouldn't be the case with just the one angel. And, while my story is undoubtedly different from what any other viewer might come up with, and probably drastcially different from your own initial idea, I find that the act of "filling in the blanks" gets me more involved with the image than if I was just looking at it objectively as a "nice photo."