Vindicated

[bluestateguy]

A couple of days ago I posted how some people on the Left were cheering on high gas prices (as well as the oil companies themselves, obviously). Some people agreed with me, other people were angered. Well here we see that the daughter of the US Senator who founded Earth Day was indeed cheering on the high gas prices:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/8904306/detail.html

MADSION, Wis. -- The daughter of the founder of Earth Day says she doesn't think gasoline prices are too high.

Tia Nelson, the daughter of former U.S. Sen. Gaylord Nelson of Wisconsin, said "we pay less for a gallon of gas than anywhere else in the world. And if we paid what the Europeans paid we'd wouldn't be driving vehicles that got 12 miles a gallon."

All fine and good if you live in a European country with a strong social welfare safety net, countries with less land mass and the likelihood that public transportation reaches every corner of the country.

She said that if there's a silver lining in the higher gas prices, it's that people are driving less and companies are being forced to think about being more efficient.

More of the same "Americans are pigs" tripe from someone in an elite political family. What a winning message for voters! The people who are most hurt by these gas prices are the people in the least of a position to do anything about it. Far fewer blue collar workers are in a position to alter their work hours at will or to telecommute. White collar workers are more likely to have these options, but then again, they likely can afford the high gas prices and they will probably just suck them up and keep on driving.

How easy it is to say such condescending tripe when you can afford to pay the high gas prices.

more

[Kerrytravelers]

1. .

:popcorn:

Anyone want to share? I can't possibly eat this whole bag by myself.

[northofdenali]

18. Here, have some more. I made a whole batch.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[yardwork]

2. She's not saying that Americans are pigs

She's pointing out that:

"we pay less for a gallon of gas than anywhere else in the world. And if we paid what the Europeans paid we'd wouldn't be driving vehicles that got 12 miles a gallon."

It happens to be true.

[MadMaddie]

4. I happen to agree with you...

The European car manufacturers are making cars that get far better gas mileage than any US Car....and the cost of "Petrol" is extremely high compared to the US....

Brazil...is using sugar cane to create Ethonal....

In the US...GM is now advertising their new 2007 SUV gas guzzler.....

The US companies oil and automobile have no incentive to build more efficient cars and to seriously research alternative fuels....

I honestly don't think she is gloating....she is saying what environmentalist and others have been saying for years....but no one believed them...and now that the high prices are here everyone is acting surprised...... The US has had pleny of time to mitigate the pain of higher oil prices and chose not to address the issue....

[Roland99]

14. Interesting page of SUVs (many with gas mileage estimates)

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/ViewTypeModels/category=type/attribute=suv


Notice the only SUVs coming close to 20mpg in the city are the smallest ones (like the CR-V or RAV4)? At that point, what benefit does an SUV have over a regular 4-door sedan? None.

[Igel]

5. I'd like to see some evidence for the

"we pay less for a gallon of gas than anywhere else in the world."

Many countries that want increased development and growth subsidize their gasoline prices. China comes to mind.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html is hopelessly outdated, but I imagine that some of the relative pricings are still true enough.

[yardwork]

6. Whatever - the exact detail about who has the cheapest gas is irrelevant

The point being made is that the U.S. has had decades of foreknowledge about this problem and we have, as a country, failed miserably to address it. This alone does not make us pigs. It does, however, leave us in a really bad situation now.

[TheMadMonk]

19. Not just anywhere, but Australia...

...We here in Aust are now paying over $US1 per litre here in or roughly $US3.75 per US gallon. It's $1.30/l in the UK, $1.40/l in Germany.

China's govt is best described as Market Comunisim. The government controls esential services almost absolutely, but trade in consumer goods, and luxuries is market driven.

The supply of fuel for transportation to feed China's massively crowded cities is deemed to be very much an essential service. In China the profit a supplier obtains from providing an essential service or resource is not a percentage, but a fixed amount per unit sold and essentially guarantees that amount of profit too. Sellers of consumer goods and luxuries can charge whatever the market will bear and the government essentially does the same thing to them in the form of taxes.

[Erika]

3. The U.S. is the only country without universal health care

The $ we give to W's big oil buddies reduces our ability to afford health care.

In addition, only metropolitan areas here have developed mass transportation. The rest of us are stuck with high prices and no alternatives.

Europe has the most developed mass transit system in the world.

[yardwork]

8. Excellent points

I have no idea why people resist the idea that democratic socialism would be a huge improvement over the system we have now.

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. I buy all these arguments

I also believe that necessity is the mother of invention.

Which seems to be the point.

This has been represented as "celebrating." That's a bit much. When my hard drive is running out of space, I don't celebrate the fact that I have to buy a new one. I recognize it, which is a different thing.

Perhaps this is the utterly elitist attitude. That's one way to frame it. Another way is as tough love, with various retrograde friends of the addict making various seductive arguments about why the addiction is necessary.

We can, I think, have an honest discussion about these questions. Unfortunately, the OP's posts contribute nothing to such a discussion, and seem more concerned with self-puffery than critical thought.

Cheers.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. At least in Europe the high gas prices are due to taxes that underwrite

health care and public transportation. Here the high prices are due to price gouging that just lines the pockets of Oil company CEOs and govt lobbyists.
I think that we are getting what we deserve. If we were not such gluttons for big cars and conspicuous consumption we would have been driving better mileage cars and demanding better public trnasportation decades ago, and we would not be having this discussion today.

[yardwork]

9. More excellent points!

[hopeisaplace]

10. Very good point.

:)

[Erika]

12. Don't forget that W and the GOP gave huge tax breaks

to those buying gas guzzlers. My dentist got a huge tax break when he purchased his silver humvee. Remember Cheney saying there was no reason for us to conserve?

[NYC]

15. Add the cost of health care to the cost of gas.

Who actually gets the better deal?

[TheMadMonk]

21. Are you aware that long distance mass transit was sabotaged...

... deliberately by a consortium of fuel, motor vehicle and tyre suppliers afer WWII for the purpose of profit. They bought into the railroads and pretty much ran them into the ground.

The synergy of the three partners made for an unbeatable combination. Liquid petrochemical fuels are a convenient compact energy source, particularly for mobile aplications. The combination of rubber and a mostly waste product of petrochemical processing, pitch, makes for a highly fault tollerant rollong surface regulated independant comtrol of individual vehicles.

Their most brilliant acheivement, from their POV, was to manouever governments into assuming the lion's share of the cost of laying down those millions of miles of roadbed.

[Renew Deal]

11. My friends that are aware of Peak Oil think prices are too low.

And one of them supported Bush. They think people need to get off of oil ASAP. Anything that facilitates that is a good thing in their opinions.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. The truth is that it will hurt like hell

It will. Like withdrawal. It's gonna fucking suck, for a lot of people.

It is therefore easy to make arguments that play up that pain, and pretend that staying on the addiction is good, because it doesn't hurt as much as quitting, or changing. Of course it doesn't hurt as much. Now. So these arguments make sense in most of their details. Needless to say, anyone arguing from parallel cases needs to be damn careful about what is being compared. Clearly, Europe has less area and more feasible public transportation. And anyone saying that the solution is for individuals to "move closer to work" or some such is an asshat of first order, and has probably never spent two weeks in a rural or even suburban area. That's clear enough. But only the self-aggrandizing, the demagoguing, and the downright dishonest portray these as the only arguments, and strut around carrying on as if the issue is about them, personally. It is obvious - to most now, and that's a goddamn miracle, or (for you non-believers) an indicator of how dire the situation is becoming - that something must be done.

It's a hard pill to swallow that the market should deal with it. But that's the only version of an argument from parallel cases that makes sense. The market will have to correct for gas mileage and alternative fuels, as it has done elsewhere. That means smaller cars and mullahg pored into scientific research, perhaps with some government mandate to do it by the proverbial end of the decade. In any case, the way we live now cannot stand, not because a bunch of radicals are supposedly celebrating, or any other such "vindicating" nonsense. It cannot stand because it is unsustainable, period. And anyone arguing on behalf of the unsustainable is no progressive, no matter how much he or she may gnash teeth over the plight of the poor.

[tkmorris]

17. No you are NOT vindicated

As a matter of fact you owe that young lady an apology.

She didn't say any of the things you accuse her of. She did NOT cheer for higher prices. And on an uglier note you accuse her of saying that "Americans are pigs" and you even put the comment in quotation marks just as I did. The trouble is she never said anything like that so just who are you quoting?

Vindicated my eye. Stop smearing that woman to further your own agenda. It's ugly.

[ComerPerro]

20. Exactly. What people like this forget is that the high prices punish all

I have to drive 60 miles round trip to work and class. Every day. And it costs me a good deal of money, when money is already tight.

I don't drive just for the hell of it, and I drive the most fuel-efficient car I can afford (roughtly 28-30 mpg highway).

This spike in prices isn't teaching me a damned thing about conservation or fuel economy...