If We Filibuster and Come Out Looking Weak and Ineffective

[The Whiskey Priest]

Because we lose; would you still want to filibuster Alito?

At this moment we have a lot of things going for us,
Republican Corruption,
an Idiotic, Ill-planned and Deadly War,
the Middle-class Being Squeezed,
a Huge Debt to China that has the potential to cripple the economy…

The Republicans are on the ropes.

The question is, do we let them off the robes by giving them a double-victory. One of getting this “right of Genghis khan” confirmed and then, also giving them the victory over a filibuster.

The simply facts are these, they more than likely hold the votes to break a filibuster on the nomination. Even if they do not, then they will use the nuclear option, which just what their base has wanted them to do.

The right wants us to have our noses rubbed in this nomination. What we need to ask is do we give them what they want?

[still_one]

1. if we don't filibuster this then WE ARE WEAK

[The Whiskey Priest]

3. What will be gained by a filibuster that we loose?

We can feel macho...but we will have lost, which is a sign of weakness. You pick your battles. The war is won through selections of the battles you wage.

[LSK]

5. we need to show that we are the OPPOSITION PARTY

Enough of this backing down BULLSHIT. The Dems need to show that they are there to OPPOSE whatever the EXTEMELY UNPOPULAR President Bush does.

See this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=101066&mesg_id=101066

WE HAVE TO FILIBUSTER.

[Skidmore]

7. What battles would you pick?

When is it important enough for you? I'm a woman and I have a daughter and granddaughters. These people will ultimately try to take away all choice for women, including birth control, and some of them would even try to take enfranchisement. Have you listened to what these groups have been saying. NO, I fight now. Those rights were hard fought and won. Perhaps if it someone were suggesting that a male does not have the right to determine what happens to his body, there would be a different attitude. IN the absence of such, I fight and expect my reps to fight too.

[The Whiskey Priest]

13. The most important battle we have in front of us

is this fall, taking back the Congress....I dont want to go into the fall looking like we got our asses kicked by the right wing as they gloat over using the nuclear option.

[Skidmore]

15. If the Dems don'f fight for me and my daughters, they

don't deserve my vote. This is a huge issue for women and has implications for our physical health and safety. I've lived in a society before where it took testimony of 2 women to equal that of one man in court and women had no rights to their persons. I will not dance backwards. They stand for us or they don't deserve our support.

[The Whiskey Priest]

19. I will not dispute that statement and concur completely

What I am saying is lets help ourselves win the Congress and the White House by not giving the right a double-victory

[Ksec]

110. You nailed it Skidmore

A vote for scalito is a vote to go backwards . I say filibuster no matter what it brings. At least you can look in the mirror and know you did the right thing.

[LSK]

22. the polls tell us that the majority of the people WANT A FILIBUSTER

[cascadiance]

83. The problem these critters are facing is that Corprations DON'T

They want Alito in to solidify their control over our government for the next generation or two. Congress critters aren't afraid of looking bad to a "majority of voters". They are afraid of fighting corporate wishes that fund their campaigns. THAT is the problem. And the more WE yell that we won't accept it, hopefully at some point we'll show them they are more at risk in getting reelected in offending us than offending their corporate sponsors!

[The Whiskey Priest]

90. I agree with most of your assessment

The only thing is we must find a way to pull more voters over to our side. That is the point of my OP..I just happen to think giving the right what they want, a filibuster, is not the smart thing to do, if we want to gather in more voters to win.

[cascadiance]

93. Why would the right WANT us to fillibuster?

I would contend that the only thing that they would gain, "votes", is an illusion they are creating, just like they are creating illusions that the "Clear Skies Initiative" is really about clear skies, the "No Child Left Behind" is really more appropriately termed, "No child left off of our recruiting lists". Don't swallow the B.S.!

It also helps making sure that the public knows why we are fillibustering him. All of these issues that are coming up about presidential power, memberships in racist organizations, etc. that Alito has "coloring" his past shouldn't just be ignored because the corporate media pals up with the Rethugs to ignore them. We need to find a way to make sure that the public understands this. That is the challenge. Harry Reid was able to seize the day when he called that "closed session" in congress a while back. Need to pull another stunt like that again, which will get the media off of their duff and help us build a case as to why we want (and SHOULD get) a fillibuster. Then the Rethugs are hosed unless they pull Alito.

[The Whiskey Priest]

101. I cannot imagine what is in the mind of the rank and file right wing

I am not trained in abnormal psychology. All I know are the statements reported when there was agreement that reduced the chance of using the nuclear option.

Attempting to minimize the damage to my intellect, I think is that they, the right wing, want to show us, liberals, who is in charge.

If they defeat the filibuster, which in my opinion is a very large chance, the right will take that for validation of their power. I am afraid that the news organization will report it that way. It is the affect on the average voter that worries me...power attracts.

Right now we have them on the run, I just do not want to give them an out by playing to a news cycle, with what will more than likely be a symbolic gesture.

I would rather the Democrats to fight for the working class with a filibuster on some bill that is blatantly harmful to the working class...SCOTUS nominations are to esoteric for the common man to understand.

We need to win, so we protect the true Democratic justices and hope like hell, that mortality catches up with those on the other side.

ON EDIT: Forgot...I like your idea....we need something like that.

[FreedomAngel82]

104. This IS THE FIGHT FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS!

What is wrong with you?! Don't you get this? Don't you know what this person is about? His ideals? His beliefs? Why Bush is nominating him? IF YOU GET HIM ON THE BENCH THERE WILL BE NO MIDDLE CLASS!!! There barely is one now! THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING EVERY DAMN RIGHT WE HAVE! If you don't get that than why the hell are you here?!

[FreedomAngel82]

102. This is why you scream and yell at anyone on that

committee you can. If you don't get how important this is than wake up and work on researching this guy. This is the most important battle ever.

[FreedomAngel82]

100. We have to yell as loud as we can

I don't give a damn what corporations want. I want my rights not only as a woman but as a citizen of this country! Look this guy up. It isn't only about women but about blacks and other minority groups. You should later go to the "Majority Report" and listen to them from today about Alito. This guy is dangerous and not just to women!

[still_one]

48. no way, enough is enough

frankly if the dems don't fight this, they can forget about my support

[Matariki]

73. the supreme court IS FOR LIFE

don't you realize HOW IMPORTANT this is? if you're going to choose your battle wisely, then THIS is it.

[The Whiskey Priest]

86. It is important....however the fight was in 2000 and 2004

Say we beat Alito, who will GW bring against us next, and next and next...unless we win Congress and Impeach the SOB...we have him for three more years. I just pray one of our guys on the bench does not quit or die.

[cascadiance]

119. You can focus on 2006 BY fillibustering Alito!

Doing a fillibuster most of us contend IS the way to help us get back power in 2006. It will show to the people that we are the party that will stand up and do the right thing for the PEOPLE and "Damn the torpedoes"! Those are the kind of candidates that will get people stop voting for the likes of Ralph Nader or the Reform Party and vote for Dems. Life doesn't stay on hold until 2006! If they do that, then they WILL lose in 2006 and we will have nothing and then the mantra will be don't "offend" until 2008 when the marbles are important then. By that time, I think America will have given up on the Dems and be looking for a new party, and RIGHTLY so then! The people need to know that the Dems will fight when the chips are down! That time is now, or they WILL lose later.

[FreedomAngel82]

99. Exactly

Women before me have shed blood, sweat and tears and I'm going to do the same to not only protect me but other women! Even the women who are willing to give it all away "to save the babies" I'm going to fight it for them! As anyone said anyone who isn't willing to fight for the rights than get out of the way for people who are fighting! I'm tired of being walked over and my rights curicified for assholes who are selfish and bigoted etc!

[The Straight Story]

126. I say pick all battles, why ever let up on them?

We fight on all fronts and keep it going - we do that here at DU and we should expect our elected officials to do the same for us and our country.

To me is like asking - which battle in ww2 do we fight? All that we can, on all fronts, until the enemy surrenders.

[durablend]

10. If we don't filibuster, it's GAME OVER

Why some of you can't get it is beyond me. Never mind the fact that they'll have stacked the courts against us (and the country) for decades to come, who in the hell in their right mind is going to vote for a non-opposition party?

Oh right, the repukes imploding are going to send the voters our way by default, I forgot :eyes:

[The Whiskey Priest]

24. No....their fall is not our staircase to the control of the Congress

We will achieve that by working our tails off. Had we done so in the past, 2000 and 2004, we would be faced with Alito today. Now the question is do we shoot ourselves in the foot over this?

[cascadiance]

95. And some would contend that we shoot ourselves in the foot if we DON'T...

... fillibuster. That we might lose a lot of those who might vote for Dems in 2006 if they DON'T take a principled stand for a change. Part of the reason why the Dems are where they are right now is because they HAVE lost a lot of votes because they haven't been taking principled stands on issues for what the Democratic Party should be standing for. "Being nice" doesn't necessarily win you elections! Certainly I think Gore would have had more Green Party votes which would have tipped him over the edge in Florida in 2000 if he was more strong willed in his stances then. I know I considered voting Green then too.

[FreedomAngel82]

105. DON'T SAY WE!

Speak for yourself! Don't speak for me! I know I'm going to fight this tooth and nail. This is for future generations to come. Look what this guy is about. What are you a freeper?

[KnowerOfLogic]

71. You are absolutely correct. nt

[Dave Reynolds]

23. That phrase "pick your battles" has been used every time there

IS a battle. To date, there have been an insignificant amount of battles picked.

We need to see if the majority party actually has the guts to use the much-threatened nuclear option. If we filibuster and lose, but the Repubs don't pull the trigger, I think it is *they* who will look weak.

[cascadiance]

84. We said this for Roberts too. WHEN do we do a battle for a nomination?

If it's not now, then WHEN? Do we have to show Alito to be a literal baby killer to have this happen?

[The Whiskey Priest]

88. In your heart do you think we can WIN?

I am just saying let us not hand the Right two victories for one.

[cascadiance]

91. It's not just about winning. It's showing who they are accountable to!

And that should be US! And they should TRY! The Republicans WON in the first fillibuster of a supreme court nomination when LBJ nominated Abe Fortas for chief justice. There's ways to make Republicans life painful enough where they back down. If they go nuclear, then shut down the whole government. Republicans will think twice about going nuclear on fillibusters that aren't nomination approvals. If the nuclear option is present for other business than just nomination approvals, that spells a lot of problems for them in 2006 if they lose the congress to the Dems then. Going nuclear on supreme court approvals doesn't help when there's still a Republican president picking judge selections. However, going nuclear on OTHER bills WILL be tough on the GOP then. We just need to keep raising the stakes and be PRINCIPLED! That is what will get the grass roots out in 2006 to vote for the Dems!

[FreedomAngel82]

107. Who cares about your heart!

You have to fight tooth and nail. Do you want to live in a fascists country? Than move to Iran and than come back here and see which you like better! Are you a rightwing evangelical Christian? Do you want them to rule you and make all your decisions whether about abortion, gay marriage etc?

[Warren DeMontague]

50. I don't know about a filibuster that we "loose"

but one that we LOSE, it will show that our party actually STANDS for something.

Sorry, Jack, but for some of us- LOTS of us- things like Reproductive Choice and Personal Privacy Issues are DEAL BREAKERS. They may not be what get you up in the morning, but trust me- that's what takes a great number of us to the poll to punch the folks with the (D) after their names. If the Democratic Party does NOT hold the line on this, people will start looking for a party that will.

[The Whiskey Priest]

58. Sorry about that......

Then we are going to gain protection of reproductive choice and personal privacy through a symbolic act?

The other thing....is Sandra Day O'Connor, a Goldwater Republican, who we should be thankful for protecting us right now?


I memory serves me she is one of the gang that put GW in the whitehouse.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. We sure aren't going to protect any of those things by rollin' over.

O'Connor wasn't any great shakes as a justice, that's true. Which is all the more reason we shouldn't allow them to stick someone on the court who is even WORSE.

Sorry, Padre. I'm not buying the line about "pick our battles". This IS the battle.

[FreedomAngel82]

98. This IS the battle!

Don't you see this? This is radical and this is depending on the future. If you don't get it than get out of the way! I will fight anyone tooth and nail who threatnes my rights!

[The Whiskey Priest]

106. I will repeat, the battle was in 2000 and 2004...next battle 2006

If we continue to lose the elections, we are going to be faced with these nominations until the whole court is eaten up by the Federalist.

Sandra Day O'Connor is not some progressive liberal as has been defined by the news and talking heads. She is a Goldwater Repub...

On Edit: If she were not a rabid republican,she could have stayed on the bench until a Democrat was elected. She does not seem to mind that GW gets to pick her replacement.

Alito may be worse, but in my heart I don't see how he could be worse. A Republican is a Republican and as such is my enemy.

[FreedomAngel82]

108. I said it once and I'll say it again

You're not going to fight? Than get out of the way! This "pick your battle" nonsense is SHIT! How he could be worse?! Do you know ANYTHING about this person? Look him up. Later go to AAR place at http://www.airamericaplace.com and get the Majority Report for today 1/10/2006 and learn what this guy is about. This guy is NO republican and neither is Bush. He's nothing more than a fascists and if you're not going to fight than as I said before get out of my way! Go pick your own battles but DO NOT tell me who and what to pick. I will yell and scream as loud as I want about this guy! Are you a woman? Do you know what this means for me and all us other women?

[ixion]

2. IMO, it's about doing the noble thing...

and that is not allowing extremists like Alito to gain seats on SCOTUS.

That is what makes someone strong, when they have the courage to maintain their convictions. Just my two cents.

[The Whiskey Priest]

6. In 1916 when Pearse lead the boys into the GPO

It was a noble thing to do, but, it was a doomed cause. Outgunned they had no way of winning. When you fight you at least want a probablity that you can win...otherwise you are not around to fight another day and in a battle that you have a chance of winning.

[ixion]

25. and if we continue to let extremists who favor theocracy over

democracy infiltrate the judiciary, it's really won't matter anyway.

[The Whiskey Priest]

33. Reality check: How do you stop it?

What is the plan to overcome their majority?

[ixion]

39. well, I can tell you this

It's not to become one of them, nor ever give in to what they want just because. It's that type of mentality that let it go this far, IMO.

[The Whiskey Priest]

43. I am neither saying become one of them, nor give in...

I am simply asking what is the smart and stratgic thing to do in this case....where they hold the majority. This was coming since they regained the Senate...now the question is, do we have any options of stopping this...we would need to hold all the Democrats, I can think of eight that we more than likely cannot hold voting for Alito and against a filibuster.

There are 55 Republicans….44 Democrats and 1 Independent, the independent votes with us most of the time.

[FreedomAngel82]

111. I'll tell you how

FIGHT TILL YOU DIE! Do you value your vote? Do you value your right to freespeech? Or do you like Big Brother and being spied upon? If so than sit back if not than stand up and fight this fucker! You go down fighting!
I'm sorry to say but it's people like you that make me sick!

[htuttle]

44. But if Padraig Pearse HADN'T led the attack on the Post Office...

...would there be an Irish Republic today? The doomed attack in 1916, and more importantly the British response to it, galvanized public opinion in Ireland to the point where Sinn Fein's efforts in 1919 had widespread support from the people of Ireland. Without the attack, the Irish people might have continued to feel as powerless as they had for the previous few centuries. Losses can be as empowering as victory in the long run.

If the Democrats attempt a filibuster, perhaps we will lose. If they allow Alito to the court without opposition, we will still lose. But which one will inspire Democrats to win in the future? This whole idea that 'losses make you look weak' is juvenile and short sighted. It's NOT FIGHTING that makes you look weak!

Sometimes, it's not whether you win or lose, but rather HOW you lose, that makes the difference in the end.

Hoka Hey! It's a good day to die!

[The Whiskey Priest]

49. Not to direct this into Irish history

Pearse lost, it was Collins and his day-by-day small victories that won some of the counties freedom.

Collins was smart he picked his fights, the ones he knew without a doubt he would win. That took the day for the Green and Gold.

By the by, it wasnt the uprising, the people were aginst that, it was the murders in the courtyard of Kilmainham that turned the people.

[Raksha]

118. You are so right! It's NOT FIGHTING that makes us look weak...

THE ROSE TREE

'O words are lightly spoken,'
Said Pearse to Connolly,
Maybe a breath of politic words
Has withered our Rose Tree;
Or maybe but a wind that blows
Across the bitter sea.'

'It needs but to be watered,'
James Connolly replied,
'To make the green come out again
And spread on every side,
And shake the blossom from the bud
To be the garden's pride."

'But where can we draw water,'
Said Pearse to Connolly,
'When all the wells are parched away?
O plain as plain can be
There's nothing but our own red blood
Can make a right Rose Tree.'

W.B. Yeats

Re >>But if Padraig Pearse HADN'T led the attack on the Post Office, would there be an Irish Republic today? The doomed attack in 1916, and more importantly the British response to it, galvanized public opinion in Ireland to the point where Sinn Fein's efforts in 1919 had widespread support from the people of Ireland.<<

It could probably be argued either way, but I think sometimes you have to lose the battle in order to win the war. One thing is for sure, though: Sometimes you have to FIGHT the battle (even if you lose) in order to win the war. And another thing is for sure: If Padraig Pearse and his comrades hadn't made the choice they did, I would not have typed that poem now, because that poem wouldn't exist. And it's only because of that poem that I knew what the Whiskey Priest was talking about when he first mentioned the attack on the Post Office.

[FreedomAngel82]

109. Do you want this guy on the bench?

Are you a republican? Why are you cheering for this huh? I don't like calling people out but what is YOUR PROBLEM?! Why are you keeping us from fighting this fascists freak?!

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. If we don't filibuster, NONE of that other stuff will matter.

If he's on the Supreme Court, the repukes will win EVERY case that goes before him/it. Bush will be crowned dictator and we can kiss our country good bye. I'm not exaggerating either. This is serious shit. HE is NOT someone we want on the SCOTUS.

[The Whiskey Priest]

9. Do you think a filibuster will be successful?

I want the government back so we can appoint the next SP

[AndyTiedye]

35. If Alito Gets on the Court, We NEVER Get Back Into Power

Either the elections will be so rigged as to be hopeless,
or they will be called-off entirely.

Alito believes in unlimited executive power. So do Scalia, Thomas, and Roberts.

[The Whiskey Priest]

37. Then we will have a real battle on our hands

will we not?

[goclark]

21. I agree but I have a question...

How does a filibuster work?

Does it take a second, an hour, a week to decide what happens next?

I ask that because, the longer we stall, IMO, the closer we get to their house of cards falling down.

What if we don't filibuster and the next day--- Rove is found guilty or something else happens to change the mood of the country to our side.

I would rather die trying that die sitting on the fence.

No guts no glory!

[FreedomAngel82]

112. You want to see how bad the court is now?

Go to the ACLU website and watch their series. It will scare the shit out of you. If it doesn't scare you than maybe you deserve it.

[stepnw1f]

8. You Are Scaring Us... Ok.. Ok We Give In

please... don't... hurt... us..

How's Abramoff doin'?

[The Whiskey Priest]

12. My intent is not to give in.....

my intent is to win the war....and in a war you loose if you commit to a battle you have no chance of winning.

[stepnw1f]

14. Win? Are you Kidding Me?

This is it... this will be the last straw. Oh oh... you mean civil war!

You know what? This is why we are in trouble in the first place. It's time to call a spade a spade!!!:mad:

[The Whiskey Priest]

16. I expect and would demand that there be no Democratic vote

cast for Alitio...but, to hold the party up to ridicule by trying to stop an overwhelming majority.....I don't think that is a good strategy.

[LSK]

28. "demand that there be no Democratic vote cast for Alito"

In other words FILIBUSTER.

[The Whiskey Priest]

31. That is not a filibuster

a vote can occur without a Democratic vote being cast....which I would expect...any Democrat that votes for Alito should be written out of the party.

[LSK]

32. the vote will go for a motion of cloture before final vote

When you dont vote for cloture, you are filibustering.

[The Whiskey Priest]

34. Granted....I was thinking in terms of an effective filibuster

one that would actually stop the nomination....Frist will drop the nuclear...because the rabid right wants that more than anything on earth...as I said in the original post, they want to rub our noses in this nomination.......

[stepnw1f]

74. "Ridicule"... lololol Worse Than That!

They get voted out! That's if we actually can still vote!!

[slor]

11. They had better fight his nomination...

sometimes you need to fight for your principal. They will always look weak to freak ass rethugs, they need to worry about how they look to Us!

[slor]

94. Too late to edit...

but that should read "principles".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Better to be weak rather than "look" weak? They did that with Roberts.

And, those 3 judges that got their seats thanks to the "compromise" made by the VichyDems to "save" the filibuster that you advocate not using.

[Walt Starr]

18. If not now, when? If not Alito, who? n/t

[MadHound]

20. Better to fight and fail, than to roll over and piss on ourselves

Like a whipped puppy. The Dems have everything going for them right now, multiple scandals, NSA wirtapping getting people nervous, little support for the war, little support for Bush. We have the number to hold a filibuster up forever, if we will hold togehter and just do it. And if that makes Frist the Cat Killer reach for the nuclear option, great, it will show the entire American public just exactly what kind of fascist bastards the Republican bastards are.

If we don't fight, if we just roll over like we've done countless times in the past six years, well you can kiss the Dem's chances in '06 and '08 goodbye. People love and respect a fighter in the cause of justice and right even if that fighter goes down. People won't do shit for anybody who doesn't won't fight for themselves, including voting for them. If the Dems let Alito go in without a fight, well, they might as well pack their tents and let the Greens take over, because that is where all of the fighters on the left will go to.

[The Whiskey Priest]

27. Then lets filibuster

even if we do so with full expectation of loosing...then would you commit to backing the party and its candidates even when we loose on this nomination? No bad mouthing..just a full court commitment to work hard and contribute to the party?

[MadHound]

30. Friend, I've been committed to the party since the days of McGovern

And if they will fight, I will continue to back them. But if they don't, I'm done. They have moved to far to the right, become too much the lapdogs of Corporate America, and lost almost all of their spine to maintain my respect.

However if they fight, there is hope. And if there is hope, I will continue to fight with them.

[The Whiskey Priest]

36. I had no doubt that you were one of long time battlers

more than towards you my comments were directed to those who are threatening to leave the party if we lose on this nomination...and I am afraid that is what is in the cards, my thoughts are can we diminish the harm that will be done, by not giving the right another victory of using the nuclear option, which they are foaming at the mouth to use.

[MadHound]

I think that we are at a turning point here,

One where we have to use every weapon, try every trick, use and abuse every single resource we have. For if Alito gets in, then there is pro Executive branch, pro fascist majority in the Supreme Court. And they will rubberstamp every single power grab by Bushco, until the point that we won't have elections in '08.

Think I'm over reacting, perhaps. But given the moves of the administration, given the makeup of the court, I don't think so. I truly fear for the future of our country if this man gets into power.

Thus, we need to fight, and filibuster. And if that brings out the nuke option, take it, turn around and hammer the 'Pugs over the head with it, and completely shut Congress down. I believe that the the 'Pugs are underestimating the mood of the people in this country, and such a move on their part will spell their downfall.

[The Whiskey Priest]

47. Maybe that is where we diverge....

I don't think the make up of the court will be much changed...OConnor was not some flaming liberal, she hates the working class and love the imperial president.....she has a much undeserved rep....after all she is a Republican, a Goldwater Republican.

I want to win back Congress so we do not face this when one of ours dies or quits. That is when the change will ocurr.

[MadHound]

41. I think that we are at a turning point here,

One where we have to use every weapon, try every trick, use and abuse every single resource we have. For if Alito gets in, then there is pro Executive branch, pro fascist majority in the Supreme Court. And they will rubberstamp every single power grab by Bushco, until the point that we won't have elections in '08.

Think I'm over reacting, perhaps. But given the moves of the administration, given the makeup of the court, I don't think so. I truly fear for the future of our country if this man gets into power.

Thus, we need to fight, and filibuster. And if that brings out the nuke option, take it, turn around and hammer the 'Pugs over the head with it, and completely shut Congress down. I believe that the the 'Pugs are underestimating the mood of the people in this country, and such a move on their part will spell their downfall.

[FreedomAngel82]

115. If they lose than game over

Period.

[Nobody]

46. This is one reason I gave my time to Paul Wellstone

He not only earned my vote, he earned my lasting respect and my hundreds of volunteer hours by his determination. He was not one to roll over.

People will respect those who fight and fail but they won't respect the ones who won't respect themselves.

[The Whiskey Priest]

53. Paul Wellstone was a fighter and a true progressive

I miss him greatly.

Paul wrestled in college and Paul was very smart. If the wrestling couch had come to Paul and said, "hey, Paul, I putting up against the heavy weight tonight." Paul would have told the couch he was crazy and refused to wrestle. Paul fought to win. He did not just fight to be fighting.

[Nobody]

129. Indeed he was

However, real life is not like sports where neutral referees make sure the rules are followed.

In politics there are no truly neutral parties, you can't tell the ref that you're out of your weight class and be matched up with a more suitable opponent. You get the opponent you get, and if you're an underdog, no one will give you a break for it. You fight and you fight hard. If the rules are broken by the other side cheating, no referee will stop the match.

This is why every civil rights advance has come only after a massive struggle. Because there was no referee making sure the match didn't start from one side being pinned already. It's not easy winning a match when you are outclassed and pinned from the start, but it has been done. It's the reason why I was able to cast a vote for John Kerry in 2004.

(edit: typed the same word twice in a row, had to delete one.)

[bettyellen]

67. absolutely, why on earth do you think politicans shld lose support for

fighting.
is this like in sports to you, where you pile on the losing team? dems weren't seen to stand up for anything, your OP promotes this further... do nothing if you can't win?

[Rainscents]

26. If Dem's don't fight this fight, your plan is totally worthless!!!

These basters plan is to take over this country, and you think this is NOT important issues to fight? I would much rather go down fighing than NOT!

[The Whiskey Priest]

29. Hell the fight to have gone down on, the one we should have taken

to the streets, was Florida 2000.

[LizW]

38. There is aboslutely no choice but to filibuster this nomination.

Looking weak or not is not a consideration. This nominee is an extremist. He has lied today under oath. He will change this country for many, many years to come if confirmed.

We have to do everything we can. Granted we don't have much power, but we have to use what we have. This is a fight to the death for Democracy, and I do not exaggerate.

The Republicans are not on the ropes. Democracy is on the ropes.

[BillZBubb]

40. Geez, could you have put a more negative spin of fighting????

People respect those who fight for principles--even principles they don't agree with. Defeatists have had their say too long. We never fight because "we will lose". Our side is viewed as weak and unwilling to fight for what we believe in.

Did the Repugs suffer after they LOST BIG on Clinton's impeachment & trial? Last I looked they took over the White House and maintained control of the house.

It's the Repugs noses that will be rubbed if we fight this nomination to the end. The public will see Alito for what he is during a protracted fight. They will see the Democrats fighting for principle for a change. It's win-win for us.

[The Whiskey Priest]

45. I pray you are correct in that assessment

I am not trying to be a defeatist, I want to whip their asses....drive them back under the garbage they crawled out from....I would say decorate lamp post with them, but that would not be right.....

I just don't want to do something that is not smart and cannot be won...just in case it can be used by them to escape the fall sword this time. We have a history of doing that, time and again.

[Nobody]

42. So an honorable fight is looking weak?

Who looks weaker?

Iraqi insurgents in Gulf War 2 or the Iraqi soldiers who surrendered in 1991?

The mugging victim who meekly and fearfully hands over the cash or the mugging victim who fights back against a stronger and more numerous opponent?

The knight who deliberately falls off the horse during a joust or the knight who tries mightily to unseat the opponent but ends up on the ground anyway?

If you fight back and fail, you look stronger than if you give up, run away, and refuse to stand up for yourself.

Losing is not dishonorable. Refusing to defend yourself and those looking to you for defense is.

[The Whiskey Priest]

51. The Object is to WIN, not just fight.

Those Insurgents that are now fighting were Iraqi soldiers that surrendered in Gulf One.

If someone mugs me with his hands he would have a fight, he has a Desert Eagle..and I am empty-handed, I'm going to do everything to keep from becoming a chalk outline.

I would not fight just for the sport and entertainment of the king and his court...sorry. I would rather fight as part of the band of Robin Hood.

If you fight and die then you are stupid. You fight to win. That is my point.

[still_one]

52. if we do not fight for our civil rights, which is what this nomination is

about, then we don't deserve to win in 2006

[The Whiskey Priest]

55. I don't think there is anything better to fight to win than civil rights.

The question is: can we win, but using a filibuster....or is it merely symbolic. Seems like the most of the civil rights were won by hard battling in the streets....most of the street upon which civil rights were won have been consecrated by the blood of those who truly fought to win.

[still_one]

57. if EVERY democrat voted against the Alito nomination the

filibuster would hold. It is that simple.

[The Whiskey Priest]

61. Do you really think we can hold the necessary Democrats?

That is going to make us look bad and this nomination look like a bi-partisan vote. We might be able to stop Democrats from voting for confirmation...but not to uphold a filibuster. IMHO

[FreedomAngel82]

116. If you don't think someone will vote this way than

you go down kicking and screaming.

[durablend]

59. So I'll tell you what

We'll sit on our asses, do nothing, let Alito slide through, then when the elections come around in November (assuming they haven't been abolished) and the general message of the populace is "Those weak ass spineless Dems don't stand up for SHIT and yet they expect me to vote for them? PFFT!" we'll come back here and cry and whine about it after we've lost yet again.

GREAT IDEA! SIGN ME UP! :eyes:

[The Whiskey Priest]

77. Okay, you have convinced me.....

We filibuster....and you are assuring me that we will win.

[Nobody]

122. You can't win if you don't fight

Backing down from every fight because you don't think you can win is the weakest thing of all. Sometimes all it takes for the underdog to win is to fight back. Overconfidence in an opponent when the underdog does fight back tips the balance to the underdog. Look what happened in Iraq if you want a real world example.

Did the American colonists roll over and wait for a fight they knew they could win? If they did, we'd be driving on the left side of the road and singing "God Save The Queen" instead of the "Star Spangled Banner" at baseball games.

Sometimes the battles choose you instead of you choosing the battle.

[ulysses]

54. you don't keep your powder dry because it feels nice

on your baby-soft ass.

Filibuster. Yes.

[The Whiskey Priest]

56. You keep you powder dry because you have a win in sight.

that is my only question, are we engaged in symbolism now, or can we really win with a filibuster. The second part of the first question is how are we perceived if we lose?

[ulysses]

60. this preoccupation with how we perceive that we're perceived

is harmful and keeps us from pursuing effective action - action that, were it pursued, might well enhance how we are perceived.

We're chasing our tails with this nonsense. Be the opposition. Alito is not qualified.

[The Whiskey Priest]

63. If symbolism is what we are after

Then lets demand that the Democrats stop this charade of hearings and get up and walk out.

[ulysses]

66. I'm not talking about symbolism.

Why is that your assumption?

[sendero]

65. Exactly....

.... we're like a teenaged boy at a dance who misses 50 chances to ask a girl to dance because we're worried about how it looks.

Screw this crap. If they want him that bad, MAKE THEM GO NUCLEAR. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY RUE THE DAY IF THEY DO.

Frankly, if the senate rolls over and dies again, I'm not sure I want to be a Dem any more. There seems little point when even the prospect of setting up a wingnut court for 30 years doesn't rise to the level of requiring a fight.

[bettyellen]

69. it does require a fight. the stakes are too high.

[sendero]

62. Bullshit...

....if we DON'T filibuster we come out looking weak and ineffective.

[More Than A Feeling]

64. Alito must be stopped.

There have to be some things we should be willing to go to the mattresses for, and preservation of the Supreme Court from the insanity represented by Alito should be one of them. We should be willing to lose all the way down the line fighting this battle, if necessary. I do not think we will lose, even if they go nuclear, though. The Senate Democrats will shut down the senate, and do their utmost to defend the separation of powers.

It's a battle worth fighting, even if we are destined to lose (which is by no means a foregone conclusion).

[undeterred]

68. If we protest the election we'll look like sore losers

I think we've learned this lesson already.

[troubleinwinter]

70. Bullshit. The way you stop a bully is to stand in his face.

[AtomicKitten]

72. I think fighting this nomination is far more important than how we look.

This nominee is dangerous. All else pales in comparison.

[goclark]

78. I agree, No Guts, no Glory!

There is no way we can win if we sit this one out.

We must do something dramatic and we must stick together.

Count Joey L. out! However, if he drops the ball on this one and sucks up to the Republicans, maybe Weiker (sp.?) will step up to the plate and knock him out of the next election.

Scalito without a filibuster = Kiss our Civil Rights goodbye without a fight

Yes it would be better if we all took to the streets but I don't think that will happen.

So....it's filibuster time!

[The Whiskey Priest]

82. The Filibuster by itself is going to protect our civil rights.

In my mind what is need is a plan to regain our civil rights. They were in jeopardy when GW was selected (Sandra Day voted for him by the way). How are we going to retake the government?

[Silverhair]

75. Remember the Alamo !! Sometimes, you have to go down fighting. NT

[The Whiskey Priest]

79. I also remember a bloody black wall in DC

Full of my friends that were used a symbols....I am tired of symbolic...I want to win...because only if we win can we change this crap.

[goclark]

96. That is why it is called politics

It is a game, like chess.


Can you outsmart your enemy ~ maybe.

But you can not possibly win if you refuse to play the game.

So if we roll over for the Republicans, do nothing and wait until they tell us that we can take a step, is that better for us - hell no.

We are the party of rebels, we fight for the little guy!

We don't let them pick our fights, we pick um and we STAND for our Civil Rights!

[The Whiskey Priest]

113. Do not miss my point

I want to fight, I need to fight, I will fight.

I just want to fight smart and win. This is not just some game, this is for life. I, also, am pragmatic...I want to look at the opponent and attack his weakness....the opponent is not weak in the Senate...

If I were calling the shots....there would not be one Democrat present at the hearings, not one question asked...nor would the Democrats be present on the Senate floor....I would demand a protest by absence.

This would not be bi-partisan...This like the war in Iraq would be hung around the necks of the Republicans.

[ninkasi]

76. We fight...

How can we ever hope to win if we don't? We owe filibustering this guy to ourselves and our country. Battles, and wars, are not won by sitting on the sidelines, waiting for perfect opportunities to fall into our laps. We have lost all that we have because we haven't put up a fight. I'm tired of waiting for "just the right time". The time is now.

[The Whiskey Priest]

80. No, you don't wait, you plot and you plan smart....

Any one who did not see this coming in 2000 was not playing with reality. Lets say we won on Alito, who would GW put up next, would he have a sudden conversion...and nominate a liberal, a progressive, hell, would he even nominate a moderate conservative.

I think the answer is no. The only way we can win is by pulling in more people to vote for the Democrats so that we take back the Senate. I just happen to think that you don't gain the numbers we need by looking stupid.

[in_cog_ni_to]

125. 70% of U.S. citizens DO NOT want Roe v. Wade overturned.

70% is a MAJORITY...no? What makes you think we would look stupid? Majority rules in this country...whether King IDIOT likes it or not. Not only that, the MAJORITY of citizens DO NOT want to be spied on...ALITO wants to give the IDIOT all the power his heart desires. Do you REALLY want that to happen? Do you know what that means? Think "HITLER."

All the Democrats have to do to stop the Nuclear Option is to call for Senate procedure and have the BILLS read on the Senate floor. Know how many pages a BILL has? THOUSANDS of pages. THAT is how they stop this crap. What's wrong with the Democrats calling for doing what they are suppose to be doing in the first place? Did you see F 911? Conyers said, "Sit down my son, let me explain this to you. We don't read these bills. We don't know what's in them." Can you IMAGINE? They VOTE on shit that affect MY LIFE and they don't know it?

The Democrats will only be doing what they SHOULD be doing in the first place. That does NOT makes them or us look stupid. They MUST filibuster this man. They MUST.

[wrate]

81. Assuming that the filibuster is lost, it's still the way to go:

If Dems do not filibuster, they lose the SCOTUS seat AND the '06 votes, because they rolled over once again, and there's been plenty of that since 2000.

If Dems filibuster and lose, they lose the SCOTUS seat but they have a good chance to have kept the '06 votes since, at least, they showed some courage and will to stop the criminals in power.

The second is, imho, the least damaging of the two situations. So you filibuster Alito.

[The Whiskey Priest]

85. I hope that you are correct, no, I pray that you are correct.....

because I don't think we can hold the base if we do not filibuster. Then it will depend upon how that is perceived by those who we need to win. We cannot win with our base, we have lost since 94...

If a show of fight, even in the face of defeat, will do it, then go for the filibuster...In my worst dreams I see the right on TV and in the newsprint chortling over beating our filibuster........

[cascadiance]

121. We have lost since 94 because we don't have a big tent for moderates!

And I don't care WHAT the DLC says regarding that. They aren't representing moderates. They are representing corporatists. That's good for campaign money, but not for votes! There are many issues that affect moderates equally as well as liberals that these bums have been voting for corporations instead (aka the bankruptcy bill). If they said FU to the corporate donors and all voted against the bankruptcy bill, then you might have people in the middle thinking that this is a party that really wants to represent them as people and not just throw bones to corporations. Even though these moderates might not be to the left on many issues, they WILL want to vote for someone that tries to represent PEOPLE. That is what will win in 2006!

[Skidmore]

127. You're damned right you won't hold the base if we do

not filibuster. My guess is that some of those female reporters on the teevee don't really want to dance backwards either, with the exception of Kate O'Bierne and that insipid Deborah Orrin. You have a whole generation of women who surged into the professional arenas. When confronted with the prospect of a world of barefoot-and-pregnant again, I do think these women will sober up. Think of all those lawyers, doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers, the list goes on. From losing control over your body, it's one short step back to losing participation in the economic arena. That's when you need to get permission from your husband to do anything in life. And lord help if you don't have a husband. Hell, no, I won't go there again!! Ever!!

[wiggs]

87. Keeping our power dry again?

They may very well put up some token resistance...again, but stop short of going all the way. We've seen OVER AND OVER that dem leaders will skirt around the edges of taking a stand, then pass on the opportunity:

certification of ohio electoral votes could have been a much stronger event for dems (only token votes against by dems)

IWR, the mother of them all

the deal that allowed pretty bad B*sh judicial nominess to be approved, in exchange for....?

Election reform and GAO report

DSM and WMD

Phase II of WMD report momentum slipping away

Medicare lies and bribes

Bolton's ridiculous installation without ongoing comment

Deficits and cuts to important programs

Sibel

Even Katrina....

And much more....congressional outrage should be expressed daily, repetitively, and with vigor and honesty. What do they have to lose? Sure, they may end up not winning most battles because dems aren't in the majority...but that doesn't mean they can't puruse, harass, frame issues, protest, shut down congress, try to fillibuster, etc. So...I don't know what they'll do with Alito, but past peformance is not encouraging IMO. I say go for it.

[The Whiskey Priest]

89. I agree with you those were the battles to fight.

We may have lost, but we stood for something different from the rabid right. I say no Democrat should vote for Alito. I just think that a filibuster, which the right wants us to try, and the press is trying to goad us into is not the smart battle.

We should have raised hell about all those votes you mentioned. That is standing for something. Then we should demand that our political leaders if they want to remain so, come up a specific agenda to oppose the programs of the right.

[FreedomAngel82]

97. I don't want my rights to be taken away

so fight damn it and I don't give a damn about "being weak"! You have to fight tooth and nail for all of us! If you're worried about what someone else will think than get out of the way!

[radio4progressives]

103. you gotta be fucking kidding, right? NT

[Cocoa]

114. I'm not sure about them holding the votes

I think there's a good chance a filibuster could hold.

[Ksec]

117. the polls Im seeing support a filibuster IMO

[in_cog_ni_to]

124. PLUS...they're on the ropes now! The country has TURNED

against this crap and what they're doing. Spying on citizens? Outing a CIA agent (TREASON), The LIES about the illegal invasion, over 2000 soldiers DEAD, Delay's scandal, Frist under investigation, Duke Cinningham and tax evasion, Abramoff and over 200 REPUKES receiving $$$$$ from him, The Downing Street minutes memo, the Medicare plan they NOW admit SUCKS (1 freakin' week AFTER it goes into effect), the vote fraud, high gas prices, tax cuts for the wealthy, Katrina, Rita, extending the Executive Powers to make George King and there's more, I'M sure. If not NOW, when? There IS no better time to filibuster. It's NOW OR NEVER, IMCPO.

[tyedyeto]

120. If they enforce the 'nuclear' option...

all that has to be done done is for one Senator to request that all bills that come before the Senate be read in their entirety before any vote is allowed, therebyprolonging each and every vote that is undertaken. Will that shut down the gov't? No, but it will take much longer to get their agenda passed.


Edit for spelling. Must.use.spell.check

[bpilgrim]

123. yeah, look where we are today playing reTHUG-lite

:eyes:

peace

[Peter Frank]

128. Give them nothing...

Informed patience is difficult, but necessary.

This admin has taken arrogance to an art form. When the sword o Damocles finally falls -- have a friggin' viable agenda already in place!

[ComerPerro]

130. I honestly don't even think there will be a filibuster

[michiganbuckeye1970]

131. A chance worth taking

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think this guy has the wit and charm of Roberts. He does not come off as likeable. The Dems need to be tougher in their questioning, but without sounding tougher. It is a true art to really grill someone will sounding nice while you do it.

With the smell of rotten scandal coming from Repubs these days, I think a filibuster is worth a try. The Repubs risk looking like bullies if they follow through with their threat to change the rules to shove judical nominations through.

The Dems need to turn Judge Sam back and, at the same time, send a short list of acceptable nominations to the white house.

The Dems could come out on the steps of the capital and announce that with a filibuster they are going to build a barrier to the wave of legalized oppression that the extreme right wing is trying to unlesh on the people of our great country.

It's time to stir up the pot. Sadly, though, most elected leaders leave their spoons at home when they head off to Washington.