Why do people think that amnesty is best for American workers?

[Nebraska_Liberal]

I was talking to one of my friends, who is a socialist by the way, and she supports amnesty for all illegal immigrants. She seems to think that giving amnesty to illegals will make working conditions better for everyone. I am baffled by this. I think if you have 11 million more people working legally it will simply give employers an even greater upper hand. Think about it. The more people chasing the same amount of jobs will just turn more and more jobs into minimum wage jobs. It is simple supply and demand. The more workers chasing the same dollar equals lower wages for everyone.

She is not the only one that I have talked to that thinks amnesty is the only solution. My problem with this plan is that it rewards people for cheating the system. Why should people that are here illegally skip to the front of the line? I am all for legal immigration, but this amnesty for all idea is silly. You are penalizing people that waited their turn. I am not a racist, I just believe that laws should be followed.

[Sapere aude]

1. My thinking is that the guest workers will not be subject to wage laws

so they will be more or less legal slaves. Only if all illegals were citizens and subject to wage laws would improved working conditions be good for all.

[Sinti]

9. Legal slaves, I'm afraid I think this is the point behind "guest workers"

Shrub's first appointee to the Labor Department was a woman named Linda Chavez, who if you recall couldn't get past the confirmation process, because she had illegal house-help. Her method of payment for said house-help was to give her room, board, and hand-me-down clothes.

Every time I hear the words "guest worker program," I remember something this woman talking about how we needed the program so we could get people to come and work at a "wage that makes sense." When I remember the fumes start coming out of my nose like a dragon, I swear. Define the words "wage that makes sense." Apparently in her eyes it was room, board, and hand-me-down clothes.

Given the fact that this was *'s first choice for Labor Sec'y, seems like two and two to me.

I pray (to my own personal, abstract, unknowable, and omnipotent god) for the day when these people get what they deserve.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Two reasons

1) They're already here, so it can't be that much worse as far as competition.
2) Most importantly, if they achieve legal status, they can demand fair wages. Currently, they undercut American workers, making it impossible for us to compete. It's better for them and it's better for us.

[endarkenment]

3. Many illegals are exploited because of their illegal status.

So they don't get proper benefits, don't get decent pay, don't have safe work conditions and can't complain about it.

Legalize the illegals and raise the minimum wage.

[Nebraska_Liberal]

6. I am definitely not for a guest worker program...

Look what that produced in France and the rest of Europe...

You say that illegals are undercutting the American worker today... Think about what would happen if all those people were legal? Even MORE employers would hire them at minimum wage, which you CAN NOT live on. The result would be every company hiring people for even more jobs AT minimum wage. Im not sure how that helps anyone but the business owners and the newly legal immigrants.

And what makes you think that our government will raise the minimum wage. It has been stagnant for years. They think it is fair because there is essentially an endless labor pool. It comes down to the market argument: Why would our government force employers to pay workers more than they are worth? They wouldn't. The more hands grabbing for the same job, the less an employer will pay for that job to be done.

[endarkenment]

8. The ethnic north african population of France

are not and were not guest workers. They are French citizens by and large and most are legal immigrants from former French colonies. Many are members of families who have lived in France since the end of WWII.

But your argument fails on other levels. First, I did not say that illegals are undercutting American workers today. For the most part they aren't as they are not generally competing for jobs that legal workrs want to do. There are exceptions of course, I am generalizing. Second the OP asked a hypothetical, and I responded with what I would do if I had the power to do it: I would raise the minimum wage to where it should be if it had been inflation adjusted as it should have been all along; I would legalize all current illegals and establish a decent and fair guest worker program; I would strictly enforce wage and benefit regulations and OSHA standards.

The reality that nobody likes to talk about is that first of all, there is a huge mexican american population that lives on both sides of the official border and that has moved back and forth across the official border for generations. Secondly, we need immigrants, large numbers of immigrants, in order to avoid the aging workforce issues that are a problem in other industrial democracies. Rather than a drain on the economy immigrants are a benefit to the economy. Unfortunately immigrants are also easily exploited as an issue by xenophobic rabble rousers for political gain. They are 'different than us' so we must fear them.

My suggestion: learn spanish and enjoy diversity.

[Sinti]

10. If we had fair/living wages for all, strong, and strongly enforced

labor laws, neither illegals nor guest workers would be a problem. The people who work for the companies that hired illegals at much lower wages would have legal recourse. They'd turn their bosses in, methinks.

[endarkenment]

11. exactly. nt.

[Nebraska_Liberal]

15. I live in South Omaha.

My neighborhood is 90% Latino. So you can preach to me about learning spanish and excepting diversity, but you are preaching to the choir. I embrace diversity and speak spanish.

I just don't understand how people deny the fact that if more legal workers are put in the workplace that wages will go down across the board as far as blue collar jobs. Of course CEO pay will go up.

I hate the arguement that there are jobs that people will not do. That is crap. There are jobs people will not do for minimum, or sub-minimum wage, but if you pay enough Americans will do anything. Sure the cost of living will go up a bit, but the middle class will start to reemerge. Something we don't have today.

I also see the need for immigration, that is why we have the legal alley for people to use. These people may simply be trying to better their lives, but they are breaking the law, and hurting the average American worker in the process. I may be making my life better by going out and stealing stuff from people, but that doesn't make it legal. It will be compounded if we grant amnesty.

The simple solution would be to give ID cards to legal workers and stiffly fine employers that hire people without an ID card. But corporate America does not want that to happen. They would rather keep costs low with repressive slave labor like conditions.

Once again I ask you, Why should the cheaters win? The plan granting amnesty will put those that cheated their way into the country in a better position that have been trying to use the legal method. Do you support cheating or the law?

[justice1]

18. possible problems and solutions

The problem as I see it, if we deported everyone it wouldn't just punish big business, and the illegal immigrants. It would also hurt Americans by crashing the real estate market, and destroying small businesses in the community.

Omaha has a population that is made up of about 10% illegals. If we got rid of them, it would be cutting off the nose in spite of the face.

There has to be limits in place for employers and immigrants. We need incentives to keep them in their own country, until they get approval from the U.S. One is to charge illegals that enter our country with a felony, that would ban them from ever entering the U.S. legally. The second is a lottery system, specifically for workers from Latin America. Third, is to have quotas on the workers, no more than 10% employed at a business full or part-time. Finally, employers would have to carry health insurance.

[skidrow]

17. Guest Workers Are The Most Realistic Solution

Addressing your points, there is no realistic way to deport 13 million people. The logistics in law enforcement putting these people in prison, giving them each a trial then sending them back would have exorbitant costs. Also, these illegals are doing the menial jobs most Americans wouldnt do, like picking lettuce and unskilled manual labor. Also, these guest workers would finally be contributing to our tax base and not a drain on our social services. Our native population is also not at replacement level, for continuing the benefits to the rapidly aging baby boom generation, this solution is not ideal, but the best option. That being said, I support stricter border enforcement.

[KurtNYC]

4. If we legalize those who are here, their employers will want more

undocumented people to replace them. In other words, there are 11 million jobs for undocumented workers, if they all get documents then there will still be 11 million jobs for people who not documented.

I don't believe that the jobs in question are, or will ever be, available to people who have legal standing in the U.S. On another thread, someone related a story of how their local meat processing plant closed, then re-opened using only illegal labor. Some businesses are now dependant on illegal labor (no taxes, no health care, no hiring/firing issues). They will continue to be dependant regardless of amnesty efforts.

[On the Road]

5. I Like Bill Richardson's Proposal

which would not grant amnesty, but make it possible for illegals who wish to stay in the US to apply for citizenship and "move to the end of the line" rather than the front.

One problem with amnesty is that it actually stimulates further illegal immigration and penalizes those who play by the rules.

As far as guest workers go, Europe has had guest worker programs for decades (cf "Bread and Chocolate"), but arguably has a greater problem with immigration. America's comparatively open policies have worked very well over the long term. But that should not be a rationale for simply lifting the floodgates.

[justice1]

7. I am trying to resolve this issue myself.

Rewarding people for cheating, will only make the problem worse. Since your from Omaha, I'll ask you a question. What would happen to the housing market if everyone was rounded up and deported?

[quickesst]

12. Hi all....

I'd like to interject something here if I may. If some kind of amnesty is granted, and the illegals become citizens, exactly how long do you think those now legal citizens will be satisfied doing "the jobs Americans won't do"? How long before they pursue your job, not for slave wages, but for just enough to realizes their version of the American Dream. You either accept lower wages, or you get replaced. I just got laid off today from my drywall and framing job, but you can bet the illegals are still working. I read where just in one state, the wages for construction workers have been suppressed over a billion dollars in so many years. I suppose you could call me a liberal, but there are times when prudence and common sense outweigh any political ideology. Secure the borders first, then deal with those already here. I don't believe we can round them all up, but we can cross that bridge when it gets here. I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of "liberals" are willing to kill the golden goose laying the golden eggs. If you overburden the goose till it dies, guess what, no more golden eggs for anyone. Just my opinion, and you know about those. Thanks.
quickesst

[Sinti]

13. Welcome to DU quickesst :) n/t

[justice1]

14. I feel your pain.

My husband was a self-employed truck driver. We made a livable wage until the large companies lobbied congress to open up the doors to Mexican drivers. They built terminals there, between that and fuel we were forced to sell.

The most important part of immigration reform is criminalization of employers, not just fines. Without enforcement, everything will be done in vain.

I am leaning to wards amnesty for people that have been here for 5 years, but with more restrictions than have been proposed. They have to prove they have paid taxes, pay a fine, and pass a drug test to pass the preliminary round, on the road to citizenship.

The drug testing will anger some people, but I think it is fair. The difference between the affect of meth in the midwest and New York is huge. Last year, New York didn't have any cases of mobile meth labs, by contrast Missouri had over 1000. They cost on average is $5000 to clean-up. Spending $5,000,000 is a lot of money to rural state. Those numbers don't reflect the other types of labs found in homes.

I've only touched on part of the problem, but it would separate the people who are here to genuinely work from the more than 20 drug cartels, that are responsible for more than 2/3's of the U.S. meth. It would also ease the burden on local and state law enforcement, and hospitals.

If we forced the other immigrants that didn't meet the criteria back to their home countries, it would open up employment opportunities to Americans.

[Orsino]

16. Keeping them illegal keep them as wage slaves...

...and drives down wages for all of us. I haven't seen another solution that addresses this point.

[Nebraska_Liberal]

19. Legalizing them would not raise wages for all...

It would turn more and more jobs into minimum wage jobs. Just like the guy that lost his drywall job, that would soon become a minimum wage job.

As far as a guest worker program, that is simply making them second class citizens. Guest worker programs around the world have failed and ended up in civil unrest.

[Orsino]

20. Legalizing them gives them a voice...

...by which they can demand change. It ends their life in the shadows, and makes it harder for the media to ignore them.

Guest worker programs would make them second-class citizens. That's a step up from their current no-class status, however, and I could support this if it came with real enforcement of their protections. Big if.