How have our Amish friends made it so long without oil and big govt?

[The Straight Story]

Growing up in Ohio, and having lived in Amish country off and on over the years I am in awe at how some folks (the amish and mennonites) have been able to do so well outside of the 'mainstream'.

They seem oblivious to our troubles - from who is running for president to the price of oil.

Is the problem we have that we want to conform too often to other standards and are thus empowering the very things we rail against?

I know (from living here so long) they are not perfect (ie, drugs, alcohol, etc) but it seems to me they are able to get along just fine without our trappings - so I guess I am wondering if we have set our sites too high and become too dependent on some things.

A free life, with folks who think in similar ways, lived out on a land we paid for years ago and are not in debt for. It seems so simple, yet so elusive. No war (they don't join our armed forces), not much use for oil, no desire for being on the power grid or wrecking the environment.

A simple religious folk with one desire, to have a simple life. Maybe we have missed a boat somewhere, or maybe I am just dreaming....

[htuttle]

1. It's industry

Industrial processes changed the world. Some for the better, many for the worse. The Amish life apart from that, to a certain extent.

I don't think religion has a lot to do with it. You can find similar societies in pre-industrial areas all over the world.

[Speck Tater]

2. Apparently some theocracies work. (nt)

[The Straight Story]

4. Is it theocracy or philisophy in this case?

ie, living apart from that which we see as 'wrong'?

[Union Thug]

3. Just my opinion, but

Beyond an unrelenting committment to a unique blend of spiritual and societal, I think that perhaps that they reject consumerism (or at least exist relatively isolated from it) and all of the trappings that must extend from that pursuit, that they are able to exist in the manner that you describe.

Just my guesswork...

[The Straight Story]

6. An excellent insight into it

They do indeed avoid consumerism.

I guess I am wondering how come we here cannot live such a life. I am not against consuming (ala internet and such). I have often wondered why I myself could not live such a life. Simple and more to the point I suppose than the one I lead now.

It is not perfect, IMHO, and leaves some things to be desired, but seems more peaceful and closer to what we want than what we have now.

[iamthebandfanman]

9. well

i dont think its consumerism so much as greed.

i mean, some do infact shop at walmart... its just that nobody really owns anything by themselves, everything is the communities right ?

[Union Thug]

14. Greed...

Good point. I'll have to think on that, but my initial thoughts are that greed is the outcome of the kind of competitive consumerism of the US. Could be the other way around I suppose! :-)

[iamthebandfanman]

17. yeah

i suppose consumerism out of control is ultimately greed ;)
so id imagine we are both right
lol

[The Straight Story]

27. On Greed:

They seem (the ones I have known) to live less out of greed and more out of community. They are not competitive but are more oriented towards how they can help each other grow (which has led to some issues on land and has caused them to explore other states - they own all of Wayne county for the most part).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. No, the Amish don't own things communally

(although the Hutterites do).

[iamthebandfanman]

19. are you sure ?

i noticed that they usually only have one van which a bunch of them squeeze into when traveling places ... made an assumption ... and an ass outa myself apparently ;)

[The Straight Story]

24. On the van thing:

They don't drive but will travel in a car if someone else does. So if there is a van going into town they may well pack in as it is easier and faster than going in a carriage by horse (and I have seen them in town on a cold day going by buggy, damn red with the cold!)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Families own their own farms and houses

:shrug:

[Union Thug]

12. "how come we here cannot live such a life...?"

Personally, I think it has a lot to do with being brainwashed into the system from the moment we are born. Every day we are relentlessly subjected to marketing and advertising and television and film that tells us how to live. They dictate our values, sell us a bill of goods that keep us chasing material prey. As part of this, we are given credit that enables us to consume the most worthless crap and then enthralls us to our debt. As the old story goes, we are owned by what we own (or pretend to own - how many people actually own their house? Not many, I'll bet).

The most wicked part of this is that if we did reject consumerism (the petty, shallow kind we seem to embrace with the greatest strenght here in the States), a large part of the system would very likely collapse - and so we cannot be allowed to think that there are viable alternatives to the way we waste away our lives.

[serryjw]

13. When you don't progress you

die! Their life is the same through the ages. That's why people die shortly after retirement. The grass always looks greener. Life is supposed to be lived with new experiences, new people and new mountains to climb

[Journeyman]

5. "Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!". . H.D. Thoreau. . .

"Still we live meanly, like ants; though the fable tells us that we were long ago changed into men; like pygmies we fight with cranes; it is error upon error, and clout upon clout, and our best virtue has for its occasion a superfluous and evitable wretchedness. Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest.

Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quick-sands and thousandand-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. Instead of three meals a day, if it be necessary eat but one; instead of a hundred dishes, five; and reduce other things in proportion."

Henry D. Thoreau, Walden, "Where I Lived, and What I Lived For"

[mdmc]

41. thanks for the words

[Warpy]

7. Ever see some of those Amish families?

There's a guy in his 30s or early 40s, at least 8 kids, and a woman who looks like the gradmother but is probably their mother and quite a bit younger than her husband.

Plus the statistics for all sorts of child abuse are not good.

It would be a great lifestyle with a more equitable division of labor and with a whole lot less sexism and battery. Getting the smarter kids beyond the eighth grade might be a neat idea, too.

But most lifestyles would be OK if only we could convince the people living them to be closer to perfection.

[iamthebandfanman]

8. ...

tradition and the way a certain sect of people act is a pretty hard thing to change when they dont really allow many outsiders into their group.
i hear its incrediably hard to become amish if you arent born into it..that they are likely to reject you for little things.. phsyical or mental flaws even ...

[The Straight Story]

16. I have seen them and interacted with them many times

The kids were savvy and on top of things. They understood 'business' and were able to make a good deal on items.

I have also worked closely with an attorney who represented the amish (we were friends in a chess club) and he has a ton of stories to tell - like the amish folks who have more money than 'god' stashed away and own their own land (plus have hand made oak furniture worth a ton). One of his clients has 200k in the bank and owns outright hundreds of acres and is buying more (out of state).

He related to me also a story about a fishing trip he went on with them up in northern ohio. An Amish guy with 20 kids. They were so quiet he was amazed and still talks about how well behaved they were that day and on the farm. We often joked that an amish couple could retire early if they had enough kids to do the work for them :)

I have met several amish wives in my time, and they seemed empowered. While the men were out tending to the field/barns they were selling their wares. They seemed independent of the men in this respect. They took care of the house and kids (when younger) and made as much money if not more than the men. One amish lady near Laurelville had her own shop I used to go to and she had her own prices she would haggle with (while her husband was out with the mules plowing and planting - a site I still miss to this day as I have moved to the city).

There is sexism to be sure, but not as much as we would like to believe. I have seen and interacted with 10 times more amish women than men, and they are quite independent and capable. They each just seem to have a place and accept that.

[incapsulated]

23. Well...

I don't have the first hand experience you do, but from the little I've seen, they seem to have the same cult-like mentality that say, the polygamists in Utah do. And hide child abuse, as well, which seems common in these patriarchal communities.

[mtnsnake]

22. Where the heck did you come up with that?

I've interacted with plenty of Amish people in northern NY and what you're describing is far from reality. Some of the families MIGHT fit your description, but most of the ones I've seen are fine people and seem very happy for the most part. They're loading with pride and self confidence from being self-sufficient, and that's a lot more than one can say for many of the more "conventional" families out there. I've never heard of all this "child abuse" you're talking about, other than from unfounded rumors that run rampant.

Maybe their lifestyle isn't perfect, but maybe they know something we don't know, too.

[Warpy]

37. I've interacted with them in Pennsylvania and Maryland.

Check out some of the statistics, sometime.

I'm sorry, but sentimentality breaks down in the face of reality. Most of them are good people, but the life is very hard, especially on the women.

Oh, I forgot. Women don't matter.

[mtnsnake]

42. Women don't matter?

Did someone say that?

[Lorien]

32. The Amish I know have well educated children and there's no battery going

on. The women look like women their age anywhere else-but without makeop. Both sexes work hard.

Blanket statements don't work for any group.

[Warpy]

38. What part of "some" didn't you understand?

That was no blanket statement. The statistics, what there are, are not good.

Yes, there are healthy families. There are also many unhealthy ones, enabled by a system that is mistrustful of outsiders and tolerates a lot of misbehavior among patriarchs.

Check it out.

[radwriter0555]

36. They are indeed a strange, inbred religious cult. Granted their political

philosophies appear to work well in an agricultural capacity, but socially they're a mysterious and strange lifestyle, nonetheless.

[Warpy]

39. I didn't find them any more exotic than bread and water

I can't say I infiltrated them completely. I was generally a guest and respected my place as an outsider.

I did notice that the women aged a lot faster than the men did.

I know statistics on abuse aren't good, especially since the whole structure is geared to hiding it, and that enables it.

I found much to admire like the reliance on organic farming methods and animal power rather than mechanization. I found their monetary dealings to be fair.

They just aint perfect.

[mrcheerful]

10. Yes your just looking at the "good" things about them. But reality is

that the amish are losing members as more and more of their kids are turning away from that life style. Its a hard life and they live without basic things we take for granted, hot running water and indoor plumping for example. Their houses as a rule have no insulation so they are hard to keep warm in the winter. There have also been reports over the last 20 years that they are strict on discipling their children and many amish, Mennonite children are abused, the good old spare the rod, spoil the child thing.

Another thing is they do use a lot of one resource, wood. Not to mention that most of the farms were built on land that they or their fore fathers clear cut. They also heat and cook with wood so they are producing wastes that go into the air, animal and human wastes that go into the land and water. Though they don't use chemical pesticides or fertilizers. Also their religion is one of the strictist in the land, though over the years they have allowed some new things but it all has to be approved by their church before they can use it.

Compared to the moderen way of life though theirs is less harmful in some ways. but it is also more harmful to the people who follow the religion, remember medicines are also religion approved, plus the fact theres no birth control allowed either.

[iamthebandfanman]

15. that is true

they are very strict and hard on their youth
but thats why they are given a chance to make the decision for themselves, whether or not they continue being amish.
they are given a year (i think?) to go out into the world without restriction. they are to go out and experience life as any other person in our society would ...and then decide what they want to do.
obviously the abuse and strict nature of the religion hasnt turned everyone off, or there wouldnt be anyone left... they dont force their lifestyle on anyone really.

[Orangepeel]

11. simple, maybe, but also damn hard

I'm no expert, but it is my understanding that the Amish live a pretty hard life. It's pretty much up at dawn, back breaking work all day, and early to bed from exhaustion.

It may sound romantic, but even the idea of doing laundry without a washer and dryer (not to mention all of the other housework) puts me off that notion

[The Straight Story]

20. Reminds me of cutting the grass this weekend really

and how good it made me feel.

Silly perhaps, but honest. I did a lot more than that as well - trimmed the hedges, cleaned off the back porch, etc and so on.

It was a hard weekend, but I felt better for having done as much as I did.

The amish I have known and seen over the years did work their butts off, but they also had a good time when it was all done. And in some ways I can grok that :)

We used to have an amish couple that would park their buggy by our apartment and then go shopping, it did not matter how hot or cold it was out - they came to town and hit up the local stores (more so than wal mart, though we did see them there on occassion). I could not imagine sitting in a carriage in below freezing weather, but they did so day in and day out. No gas price to worry about or car payment or insurance.

I guess I am just amazed at how many lived off the grid (as we call it) and seemed happy to do so.

[karlrschneider]

30. I am only an egg.

;-)

[Union Thug]

21. Amish life maybe hard..

But I remember learning in my now 20 year old Anth classes that primary cultures (certainly not the same as agrarian anachronism like the Amish) tend to spend less time in the activity of 'work' than we do in modern cultures. I'm not suggesting that we turn off the grid, but it's an interesting thing to consider. :-)

[kestrel91316]

25. They are very selective in their use of technology, and very sensitive

to the adverse consequences of its use/misuse.

More power to them. We could take a cue.

[sutz12]

28. They gave up all politcal power. nt

[karlrschneider]

29. I know (and have known) quite a few Amish. They are very clever

including finding ways to circumvent their own 'rules.' There is a LOT of hypocrisy in how they operate...instead of "having" phones, they arrange for a "pay phone" on various corners (which interestingly only cost a dime still...not sure how they manage that)...a lot of them around here are in the bakery business and they allow electricity for the ovens because it's "only for working"...some still drag wagons around with horses but they don't have any problem figuring out an exception for tractors when the loads are heavy. Some of them have satellite TV (my SO is a Dish installer so I know about this) but I have no idea what rationale permits that particular choice. A while back, a teenage Amish boy approached me wanting to learn to fly...I taught him and he did...quite well actually - he begged me to never tell his family (as if I would.)

[Lorien]

31. I had Mennonite grandparents in Ohio's Amish country

They passed away in 1999 and 2000, and I really miss them. They delighted in their family, friends, nature, gardening (they grew most of their own food) and a few handcrafts (handmade clothing, quilts, etc.). They rarely watched TV or movies, weren't at all interested in material things for the most part. They had an incredible amount of energy, doing chores from sunup to sundown (and never seemed at all unhappy about it). My grandfather was fit until he fell out of an apple tree at 89, my grandmother fell down a flight of stairs at the same age. If it hadn't been for those accidents they may still be with us today. Hard work and a positive attitude keeps a person young.

They were also life long liberal Democrats, as are most Mennonites (and Amish-those who vote, anyway). Part of the reason is environmentalism; Amish and Mennonites don't believe in taking more from the earth then they and their neighbors will use. Amish will use electric lights and appliances-as long as they are powered by solar or wind. All are pacifists, too. In a way I'm glad my grandparents aren't hear to see what's going on; they said that the idea of Dubya as president "made them shiver".

[justice1]

33. Aren't there different types of Amish?

Lower Amish being the stricter, while upper Amish own cars. I thought I read that years ago.

[pitohui]

34. their life looks like hell to me

i can't imagine being a woman in such a society, the simple life is hell if you are a woman, better never to have been born than to just be a baby-making machine w. time out to do the canning and the gardening!

the women are certainly not free and as i am a woman, i think romanticizing backward cultures is just plain pathetic, sorry

[mtnsnake]

44. You need to come down off your high horse

Have you ever visited with one Amish woman in your life? If you did, you'd find that they're not as miserable as you think.

"the women are certainly not free and as i am a woman, i think romanticizing backward cultures is just plain pathetic, sorry"

How narrow minded of you to say that.

[Zorra]

35. An advanced natural "tribal" culture, environmentally conscious,

economically and politically aware, (necessary to prevent the schoolyard bullies from spoiling the party and eventually destroying the earth), that embraces a simple lifestyle but is equipped with alternative energy technologies, might be a lot less work and a whole lot more fun, especially if it recognized individual spirituality but dropped all dogmatic baggage.

Kind of an independent but interdependent "custom culture", where individuals can maintain their individuality, yet be part of a collective group that has a majority of ideas in common.

Thomas Jefferson meets "Crazy Horse".

That said, more power to the Amish, their gig is their gig and it's just fine with me.

[mdmc]

40. but how do they vote for their fav. teen idol

:eyes:

They have the right idea.

[madokie]

43. three words, very few taxes. Here in NE Ok they work cheaper

because they don't pay any payroll taxes, the mennonites use our roads with out paying any taxes on the fuel or tires they use, when you hire them to work for you you pay in cash or make the check out to there church, no taxes. Wait until you follow a tractor pulling a trailer loaded with pallets for instance for 15 miles with no chance to pass going about 25 miles per hour. Its simple they are taking advantage of the system. a friend has a cabinet shop and if he tries to bid against them he looses for said reasons. A lady I know hired a bunch of mennonites to repair her house after a toronado. I was working also. they were charging her half of what she paid me but she today would tell you she got a much better deal on my labor. for instance when it was time to roof the addition that was added, it took 5 of them 7 hours to roof one half of the roof. a big storm was comming and they wouldn't work on a saturday and she was worried about the decking so I told her I would do it myself, oh but you can't possibly do that it took 5 of them to do the other side, I did the side with all the plumbing sticking through and put the ridge on myself in 7 hours flat and didn't have to rush. needless to say they were never asked to return, I finished the job to big smiles and a nice bonus from the home owner. I could go on and on but.
hate to burst any bubbles but
peace

[Seedersandleechers]

45. My longtime BF was a mennonite from rural Kansas

He never had a childhood. He can remember at age 5 driving a tracker for his dad. When he was younger he was pulling weeds. He was never allowed to play-be a kid, there was always work to be done. Maybe this is what it is like on a farm and has nothing to do with being a mennonite-I just don't know as I grew up in the burbs of Chicago..