Graffiti Back in Subways, Indelibly This Time

[AngryAmish]

"But now officials are seeing a fresh surge of subway graffiti, in which windows are irreparably damaged with acid. Raising the specter of the bad old days, transit officials are vowing to fight a problem they say is even more menacing than the graffiti of decades past."

These a-holes are etching their tags into glass that then has to be replaced.

To those who are taggers and those who like them let me say this: You are scum. Destruction for sake of making you feel better is a childish notion. If you want to create your "art" then do it on your own stuff. But you won't because you are too lazy to get your own stuff.

[stopbush]

1. I worked at a museum where most of the staff considered graffiti art.

Strangely, when the side of the museum building got "tagged," they painted over it the next day.

I think 90% of it is vandalism.

[iconoclastNYC]

19. Yes it does seem

That many elites seem to think that graffiti is art.... i think it's white shame b/c it's poor inner city brown people are the ones doing most of this stuff.

If you don't own the canvas... it's not art... it's vandalism.... no matter what you put on it.

[Yollam]

68. Why would you say that?

A lot of graffiti is done by white kids or suburban kids. There is no single demographic responsible for it. And there are an awful lot of "inner city brown people" who don't do it.

[girl gone mad]

88. Basquiat's graffiti became..

very valuable. People were tearing gbuildings apart to get it.

Graffiti is not the same as tagging, IMHO.

[bryant69]

2. There is an interesting disconnect between the idea of personal expression

and the realization that some poor slob who's job already sucks enough has to clean up after you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Taxloss]

4. Spot on. n/t

[AngryAmish]

Bravo

In a previous graffiti discussions I have heard people defending taggers because to unfairness of the system. Well, it you tag public space all of us have to pay, jerky. Or on private property some poor person on the bottom of the pay scale has to clean up after you. Way to go, jerk.

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. I'd never defend it because of the unfairness of the system

It requires no defense, in fact.

[Taxloss]

3. This has been commonplace in Europe for a while.

The London Underground fights a never-ending battle against it. It's an incredible unartistic expensive nuisance. It's called "Dutch etching" here for some reason, maybe it started in the Netherlands. I really can't understand the motivation.

[asthmaticeog]

6. Those poor Dutch.

"Dutch courage," "Dutch treat," now this. Will those pot-smoking libertines ever catch a break?

[Taxloss]

11. "Going Dutch", "Dutch cap" ...

... and wasn't Reagan called "Dutch" or something? I think they've suffered enough. Meanwhile the Danes get delicious pastries and fine bacon.

[tabasco]

12. In Holland they call it "English etching."

Just kidding.

Unfortunately I haven't been to Holland for a long time.

[novalib]

5. Maybe It's Just Me, BUT

I always kind of liked the artwork on the New York subways back in the '80's.

Now, when I go to New York, the sleek silver of the subway cars seems -- well, just a little too sterile, and not "New York".

Just my opinion.

[AngryAmish]

8. I gotta disagree

On each subway car, how many times would you see variations of the word "F-ck"? It is loutish and it allows people to think no one cares about their fellow man.

[novalib]

17. I Don't Recall That

I don't recall seeing the "F word" on subway trains.

(That's not to say it wasn't there -- I never lived in New York, I only visited it fairly often in the '80's and '90's.)

What I remember where the highly stylized names, the numbers, and the bright colors.

I agree, though, that loutish (and worse) words would be highly objectionable.

[ldf]

90. lovely stylized names, numbers, bright colors

a bunch of crap, is what it is. EVERYWHERE.






and the building i live in, paying 1500 a month rent..



you want to see this garbage, paint it on your own living room wall (and give up the idea of ever getting your deposit back...)

[alcibiades_mystery]

104. I agree...most of that sucks

Mostly local. The "EMS" tag in the first picture is so-so, but he's clearly local since he has a much older and busted ass tag close to the bottom of the same gate. Everything else on that gate sucks. I'd like to get a closer look at the fill-in on the gate next to El Sol Electronics. Tree's blocking it. Looks like "DES" might be local too, since he has a tag on that gate, plus another on the center La Unica Soda gate, in different styles and with different paint, indiciating that it's probably from different nights. As for the third picture, the only decent tag is "DARKS" in red at the top of the left-most gate (over the SPA of "SPANE"). I actually know that kid from back in the day. Bit of a crew hopper, but not bad. Couple of my friends beat down his boy once, but I gave him the heads up to get out of there first, and he split. I'm surprised he could get up that high. He must have grown a few inches.

[mitchtv]

46. I just loooove when they cover up the maps

what scumbags

[Taxloss]

10. This etching isn't the same.

It's not art, just ugly. A name scratched or burned into a window - none of the precision or colour of paint.

[iconoclastNYC]

21. What?

If you define New York as the period where the city was bankrupt almost nobody took the subway then yeah the subway now seems not very New York.

But then again I guess New York just isn't New York because you can walk thru the park and not get mugged.

I live in New York and I absolutely hate graffiti.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Ah, the good old days when we used to hit the trains

I came in at the end of that period, really, when Koch wouldn't let them leave the yard if they were hit. So we started hitting them in the lay-ups! :rofl:

But I mainly did highways and tunnels, and of course trucks and street tagging. Still love it. Did a little on XMas break, and I'm damn near 33. Addicted to the aroma of Krylon, you know? Different colors have different smells. My roommates in college didn't believe me, until we did a blind test and I nailed 6 colors in a row just from their scents. Needless to say, Krylon ultra flat black is the most distinctive, but then I probably caught 5,000 tags with that color. ;-)

[ronnykmarshall]

62. Please don't visit my city.

I really don't want to have to look at your "art" on the walls of my building.

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. I never said it was art

And I really couldn't give a fuck less what you want. Or rather, it is preferable for you NOT to want it, and to agitate for more enforcement, since that ups the risk ante and therefore the increases the credit for work within the subculture.

[Maru Kitteh]

78. Those who tout their own ugly actions

It's just as laudable as my grossly obese hillbilly sonuvabitch brother in law who can't get enough of telling everyone about how much sausage he can eat, his flatulation, the quality of his stool and how we should turn the entire middle east into a sheet of glass so he can have cheaper gas for his monster truck.

So what if others have to clean up after you right?
So what if responsible, DECENT people have to pay for the destructive juvenile urges of the developmentally inept?

I put it in the same category as my BIL's rants - That is to say I think it's the defensive and compensatory reaction of someone who understands they are suffering from a defect.

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. Thank you Dr. Freud

In my next journal entry, I'll tell you all about my mother.

:rofl:

[ldf]

91. oh, gawd, i just wet myself

you are so fuckin' COOOL!

but you still sneak around like a coward, pissing all over other people's property.

you'd get your ass handed to you if you did it when anyone could see you.

you will NOT pull us into the gutter with you.

edited for spelling under the influence of anger....

[alcibiades_mystery]

96. Yeah, I guess part of the point is not to get caught

:shrug:

But actually, we used to hit highways around 8pm-9pm. It was easier when the cars were frequent, since none of them could stop.

[NuttyFluffers]

99. but, was it beautiful?

i have a soft spot for beautiful graffiti. and humorous limericks in bathroom stalls. ahh, the vitality and creativity of underground culture...

but if it was boring, i'll be very sad. got a good pic of the best work you did?

[alcibiades_mystery]

102. um...I have about a thousand pictures

but I wouldn't post them with this pack. Most are pre-digital, in any case, and I don't got a scanner.

used to love this line, from the Talking Heads:

"Standing tall, by the side of the road, I fell in love, with the beautiful highway..."

:toast:

[Book Lover]

118. You bad boy!

:spank: You're supposed to be older and wiser now ;-)

By the way, thanks for keeping this thread alive; I have been reading your various exchanges with interest and amusement.

[novalib]

25. What I Meant Was

I certainly did NOT mean to define New York as the period when the city was bankrupt or when crime was terrible.

New York to me is a city of enormous creativity.

Times Square, for instance, used to be sleazy, but walking through Times Square was an experience I'll never forget -- I could feel the creativity of New York City.

Now Times Square is almost like "Any Mall USA" -- except that it has flashier signs.

Same with the subways back then -- they pulsed with the creative spirit of the people of New York. Now, they are silver, clean, and sterile.

In My Opinion.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. This is a bit of romanticism

I like Andreas Huyssen's take on this:

"In the debate over Times Square we have the sparring of two different concepts of mass culture and of the popular: one that is clean, mainstream, suburban, and focused on family values, the other invariably identifying the truly popular with notions of marginality, sexual politics, otherness, and minority culture. Both views are narrow, and it is not at all clear why Times Square should exclusively belong to either one." (88)

Huyseen, Andreas. "Fear of Mice: The Times Square Redevelopment." Present Pasts: Urban Palimpsests and the Politics of Memory. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2003. 85-93.

[MadHound]

7. Whoa, they're using acid to etch the glass?

That's some damn powerful stuff they're using then, because a lot of acids, including sulphuric and hydrochloric won't mar glass. These fools are playing around with some serious shit, and probably doing so incorrectly. My bet is that they're etching a lot more than glass, spilling a little here and there.

And they should be pretty easy to trace. Not many people outside of labs use that shit, so just go through the records of the lab supply companies.

This is too stupid on too many levels. My guess is that some tagger is going to get hurt, spill some of this shit on himself or somebody else. You just don't mess with that sort of shit, at least not outside a lab or other such facility.

[Igel]

14. I guess they're using HF,

hydrofluoric acid. Not especially nasty for short periods, but it eats glass. I used it as a teenager for etching glass; when I got it on my hands I was in no hurry to wash it off. The F- radicals eat into anything, but it doesn't dissociate much, so there's not a lot of F- in the solution or paste and it attacks slowly.

Unlike HCl or sulfuric acid, in which the Cl or sulfate ions don't attack as much, but the acids dissociate more, so they attack quickly.

In college chemistry we had two terms to disambiguate the two kinds of acids, but that was 25 years ago.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Oh fer... They're not using HF.

If they were using HF there'd be dead teenagers littering the streets.

The windows aren't real glass, but plastic.

Frankly, if teenagers are using chemistry to outwit the cops, I say more power to them. That's as creative as when latino youths started using hydraulic pumps to hide their lowriders back in the seventies.

[dysfunctional press]

15. it's not always glass-

here in chicago, a lot of the el cars and buses have plastic windows- and they get all scratched up by people leaving their marks.

[asthmaticeog]

9. Wow.

The graf along the train lines in Cleveland is amazing, but nobody *ever* touches the trains themselves except the occasional dumb kid tagger with a marker. I'd hate to see this window etching shit spread here.

[TomPainesBones]

13. This isn't new

It's been going on for years here.
I've been seeing this shite on the trains for at least a decade.

[foreverdem]

16. Some windows I've seen

are so tagged and scratched up, you can't even see out of them. It's really disgusting and is getting worse. I'd hate to return to the days where the trains were absolutely filthy and in disrepair.

[mdmc]

20. All art is crime

somewhere.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. The "bad old days" are the good old days for me

I am proudly scum.

And I could give a fuck less what the OP thinks about it. Boo hoo. Matter of fact, I wrote some graffiti over XMas break when I was back in NYC. Came out nice, too. Love it.

[AngryAmish]

26. What about the poor guy/gal who has to clean it up?

Are you above them? Specifically, what makes you better than them?

Also every time anyone buys a bag of chips or some beer they have to pay taxes that goes to clean up your mess. When the transit company has to shut down late night service because they don't have enough money and some woman has to walk miles home late at night that is partially your fault. Does that make you feel better?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. It's great, isn't it?

"Oh my god! What if the train shuts down because of the grafitti and some poor women gets mugged walking home!

Why won't those grafitti artists please think of the children!?"

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. LOL

The lengths people will go to with absurdist rhetorics. Didn't you know that all that money spent buffing the trains would have formed us a perfect society? :rofl:

[AngryAmish]

36. OK, how about this

I would have to repaint my garage door about 4-6 times per year.

If I didn't cover it up I could get fined by the city. And spend a morning in building court.

So I got to spend 3 hours 4-6 times a year repainting my garage door an ugly color of dark brown. All because someone decided to tag my garage door.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Yep.

That's absurd too.

[AngryAmish]

39. I'm at a loss of how to respond

You derive pleasure from making people do things for no reason? Or do I deserve to be punished because I owned property?

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. That's exactly right

There is no way to respond. It has very little to do with you, in fact. I know that's hard to stomach, but that's the way the subculture functions.

[AngryAmish]

42. It has everything to do with me

I had to clean it up.

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. Let me reiterate

It has little to do with you. Take that as you want to take it. No amount of asserting will make it otherwise.

[MelliMel]

58. So you have no problem destroying private property as well?

go tag up the outside of your own home then.

[alcibiades_mystery]

60. No thanks

Besides, as I said elsewhere, private homes are not acceptable within the subculture. But garages and apartment buildings are. Private trucks, too. Businesses, etc. But you'll very rarely see graffiti on private homes, even in the inner city.

[ronnykmarshall]

64. That is such bullshit.

Private home are off limits, yet apt building are "OK"?

So basically fuck the people that live there, right?

I live in in a condo building so that's "OK" to hit that?

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. Who said it made sense?

I'm relating the practices as I learned them. Don't know what to tell you more than that. Here's another doozy: Obviously, commercial trucks are OK. There is a dispute over commercial vans: you can hit them, but only if they've been hit before. Of course it is totally illogical from a moral perspective. But that's utterly beside the point. You hit commercial vans if they've been hit before because that indicates that the owner won't clean it THIS time, which means your shit runs longer. It's pragmatic, period.

[Kingshakabobo]

65. That's a bunch a bullshit.

I see graffiti on private residences ALL THE TIME in Chicago. I was just noticing it today on the way to work. I saw the side of a beautiful brick bungalow tagged and thought to myself how hard it was going to be to remove that shit from brick. BTW, this wasn't in a wealthy neighborhood so some poor "bourgeois douche-bag" is going to have to pay or live with either a stain or a paint-blotch on the side of his house.

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. Can't speak for Chicago

In NYC, the general subcultural practice is not to hit a private residence. Mind you, there need not be a moral reason for this. It may be completely pragmatic: a private residence is likely to be buffed very quickly, because most people won't allow a tag on the side of their home for very long. Apartment buildings would be buffed less often, and owners may just give up on fences and things like that. So, I imply no moral reasoning here. It may just be a function of ups.

[MelliMel]

106. Apartments are private homes

for the residents. You think they want gang tags and other such nonsense all over the place they call home?

[alcibiades_mystery]

108. No, I don't think they want them

Where did I ever say I think they want them?

What does a graffiti writer see when he sees an apartment building: a surface where shit might run for a while. That's it. I think I've been very clear about this throughout this thread. Why not hit a private home? Because it's owner is likely to clean off the graffiti sooner than the apartment building owner.

[MelliMel]

110. Ah, so no respect for anyone.

Only your own desires and wishes. Kinda like Republicans....

[alcibiades_mystery]

111. Very like a whale

or an elephant, as it were.

Did you also see the pro-illegal-graffiti platform at the last republican National Convention. It was absolutely appalling. :rofl:

[Yollam]

72. Just because taggers are subhuman...

...doesn't mean they deserve status as a "subculture".

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. Oh go on

ya big galoop! It's so cute when you get all indignant!

That said, graffiti writers are clearly part of a subculture by any established social science definition. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get to make up your own definitions for what constitutes a subculture.

[Yollam]

79. alcibiades, I've been reading your posts, and you're full of crap.

First of all, if you got a phd while running around spouting adolescent pseudo-anarchist gobbledygook, I'm impressed.

And I'm just as entitled to withhold subculture status from worthless taggers as taggers are entitled to pretend that they somehow deserve it.

sub·cul·ture P Pronunciation Key (sbklchr)
n.
A cultural subgroup differentiated by status, ethnic background, residence, religion, or other factors that functionally unify the group and act collectively on each member.

Taggers don't seem unified in any way. They're all in competition, each to have his idiotic moniker displayed as repetitively and prominently all over town as much as possible. Apparently, there are some 14 year old girls who are easily impressed enough that they give out handjobs to the most prolific scribblers.


I have more respect for drug dealers and gang members than I do taggers. Most of them are trying to find a way to make a living and don't go out of their way to cause their neighbors grief. From what I've seen most taggers are snotnosed 14 year-olds who are NOT from any underclass, but whose indulgent parents can't even be bothered to ensure that their kids are home in bed at 4 am.


I suppose you deserve credit for being honest in admitting that graffiti is criminal, pointless and offensive to the majority of people. If only you could have a freaking epiphany and realize that those are NOT good things.

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. I'll trust the actual social scientists over your googled definition

(even though your googled definition includes graffiti, here: other factors that functionally unify the group and act collectively on each member)

------

Contemporary "hip hop" graffiti-today the dominant form of public graffiti and illegal public art in the United States, Europe, and elsewhere-took shape some 25 years ago as a distinctly local and urban phenomenon. Emerging in the Bronx and other New York City boroughs as part of a homegrown hip hop culture, this form of nongang graffiti was developed by inner-city youths as a stylized system of subcultural status and street-level communication (Castleman 1982; Ferrell 1995a, 1996; Lachmann 1988). "Tagging" subcultural nicknames on walls and subway cars, painting larger two-dimensional "throw-ups" and still larger, multicolored "pieces," hip hop graffiti "writers" and the "crews" that they organized illicitly remade New York city's public spaces and public meanings.

Ferrel, Jeff. "Freight train graffiti: Subculture, crime, dislocation." Justice Quarterly. 15:4 (Dec 98), 587-609.

-------

My analysis of graffiti as an illegal social activity for the production of fame through art provides an occasion to build a framework for joining the usually separate, though complementary, sociological literatures on subcultures, deviant careers, and art worlds. Howard Becker (1963, 1982) and others (Best and Luckenbill (1982) review this approach to deviance) have shown that the seemingly idiosyncratic activities of violating social norms and producing art are structured by the deviants' and artists' interactions with others engaged in the same enterprise. Yet the very similarity in the sociological analysis of criminal and artistic careers points to the way in which structural studies can slight the content of cultural practices and products. That more 'ideological' side of analysis is emphasized in the primarily British literature on subcultures. However, that work, in turn, loses touch with the organizational sources of a subculture's coherence. These partial understandings of deviance will have to be joined if we are to understand how graffiti writers created, and then lost, the organizational and ideological bases for the allocation of fame.

that snippet would appear in the...er...American fucking Journal of Sociology...to wit:

Lachmann, Richard. "Graffiti as Career and Ideology." American Journal of Sociology. 94:2 (Sep 1988), 229-251

----aaah, I'll stop there. Lucky I have access to a searchable database and full text journals entries, ya know?

[alcibiades_mystery]

97. And look at how dishonest you were

From the very same page where you copied your definition:

Science

A group within a society that has its own shared set of customs, attitudes, and values, often accompanied by jargon or slang. A subculture can be organized around a common activity, occupation, age, status, ethnic background, race, religion, or any other unifying social condition, but the term is often used to describe deviant groups, such as thieves and drug users.

Needless to say, you didn't get as far as the entry drawn mainly from Hebdige's work on subculture and style, but then, you were being a bit shifty anyway, yeah?

[Yollam]

107. How can you have a "subculture"...

...in the utter absence of culture?

[alcibiades_mystery]

109. Deep

Very deep.

I suppose having been utterly defeated on this question you now choose to descend into nonsense. Argue with the social scientists. It's their category. I'm just using it.

[Yollam]

112. When you show me some sense, I'll respond to it.

Where is this "culture" of which you speak? By your very descriptions, it's all about the rejection of culture, society, norms.

Post all the cites and references you like and declare yourself the victor. post all the smug "LOL"s you like, it doesn't make your arguments any more sensible.


"Graffiti is great because it bothers people, and because society doesn't understand it" is not a good argument in favor of graffiti, no matter how you spin it.

[Yollam]

113. I did not copy from that page and I was not dishonest.

I got the definition from dictionary.com. It did not go into detail or academic perspectives on subculture, and certainly nothing as ephemeral and meaningless as "style".

[alcibiades_mystery]

115. uh huh

right

that said, your use of the definition (from dictionary.com, you say now) was disputing my assertion that "graffiti writers are clearly part of a subculture by any established social science definition." That assertion is clearly accurate. If it's good enough for the American Journal of Sociology, it's good enough for me. But now you don't like the established social science definition, based on your no doubt extensive research on subcultures at dictionary.com (supposedly). I'll stand by my use of the term as accurate according to "established social science defintions" until you give me reason not to. Feel free to consult the literature, and by literature, I am not referring to an online dictionary, you know?

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. As a practice

I never hit people's private homes, but I know some folks will hit garage doors. Usually, only a hack will bomb a garage door, but there are always new people coming up, and it may be different if your garage door faces a major thoroughfare. That said, my subjectivity as a lawful adult now says, yeah, I get your point, it's a pain in the ass, etc., but my subjectivity as a graffiti writer, still lurking in there somewhere says too bad, so sad. Buff it a lot and they'll get the message. Remember, writers want their shit to stay up as long as possible. If it's buffed the next day consistently it'll be a waste of paint for them.

[AngryAmish]

41. My door faced an alley.

It was gang territory marker only.

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. If your door faces an alley

Then it was strictly young kids and hacks hitting it. They did it because it was easy to hit without getting spotted or caught. Can't do much about that. Then again, one wonders why the city would have to fine you for a garage door facing an alley being hit with graffiti. In NYC, the city can't do that, so I don't know what to tell ya? Cheers. :toast:

[ronnykmarshall]

63. Yeah those swastikas some asshole painted

on my mom's garage were just fucking COOL!

"Joyful", ain't it?

[alcibiades_mystery]

75. That's not street graffiti

That's a dick painting a swastika, which is a different thing altogether. Different motivations, different practices, etc. Now, you may think that someone catching a tag is just a dick catching a tag, but at least be honest that a swastika and a tag are qualitatively different. In fact, several posters here are pissed precisely because the street graffiti is "non-political," which I'd agree with, at least in broad terms.

[Misunderestimator]

74. Choices? To deface others' property, to commit crimes that others pay for?

Yeah... those are choices I would prefer not to make. Come on, admit it... you're just trying to make liberals look bad, right?

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. My time as a

graffiti writer mainly predates any left politics I've developed since then. Hell, I'm guessing most of my positions at the time were pretty conservative, coming fromn outer boro working class NYC. And everything I've said in this thread is in fact my position on the issue, period. As for making liberals look bad, look how many people are wailing and crying at me here, outraged. If anything, my comments on this thread should make DU look good for opposing me. I'm well aware of the way my position is located vis-a-vis mainstream practices on this issue, and I am neither ashamed nor apologetic about it.

[Misunderestimator]

77. Why not? What were you protesting? What were your statements...

when you did graffiti? Even as a conservative, I'm not getting the point of it. Why aren't you apologetic about it? I've done some stupid things in my life that I am apologetic for now... that I might not have been apologetic for at the time.

It sounds like you are saying that you are different now, but throughout this thread you defend graffiti as if you support it... I don't get it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

81. I do support it

And I am different now. I was responding primarily to your notion that I was trying to make liberalism look bad. The two are utterly unconnected, is my point.

Moreover, there is no protest involved. The purposes of graffiti make no sense outside the subculture (or, they might make sense in psychology or sociology or some such, but they are not directed outside the subculture in any political way). I'm unapologetic about it because I liked writing, I liked the people I met, I liked the things we did, it was invigorating, and finally, because I'm glad it still exists. It remains fascinating and beautiful to me, even though I very rarely do it anymore.

[Misunderestimator]

89. So the fact that others have to pay to clean it up makes no difference to

you? That it extends to actually scratching windows that need to be replaced, or to citizens, and not public, property, makes no difference to you?

The statement about making liberals look bad is because you are posting this on such a liberal site, and seem so unapologetic for it. I'm still curious how you could be so indifferent. If there was a statement to be made, a cause to be celebrated... it would make sense to me. But just graffiti for the sake of it... that's flabbergasting.

[alcibiades_mystery]

93. That's precisely what's fascinating about it

There is no project; there is no purpose from the perspective of the dominant culture. And yet it has grown into a global practice in just about 30 years. That's not fascinating?

[Misunderestimator]

98. About as fascinating as men pissing on the sides of buildings.

That's also a global practice that hasn't changed much despite society's objection to it and access to public restrooms. :eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

101. LOL

Yeah, that's an apt comparison.

[Misunderestimator]

103. Yeah, I know... graffiti is worse.

[alcibiades_mystery]

105. Zzzzzzing!

:rofl:

[rman]

84. He/she gets payed for it, will be doing that job anyway.

Has nothing to do with being above people.

Quite a guilt trip you've going there. Are you sure it is not satire?

[Taverner]

24. Territorial Pissing

Most graffiti is a gang member leaving his mark, much like the way a dog marks a tree.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. While the graffiti subculture

certainly intersects with gang subculture, graffiti - as street graffiti - is mostly transterritorial. That is, you don't just hit your own neighborhood. The goal, at least back in the days, was to go "All City." (This is in NYC) This is somewhat different than marking territory, because the goal is to be everywhere.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Yeah, it's pretty primal

But then again, the squares whining about grafitti are just controlling what younger people see and do, kind of like a first grader bully shoving around a kindergartner.

[The_Casual_Observer]

29. It isn't art it's vandalism. It's ugly and mean spirited too.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. Yeeee-HAW!

As a graffiti writer I always hated the bourgeois douchebags who yammered on about "graffiti art." It was a way of normalizing the practice, taking the big fuck you out of it. And while I'd never begrudge anyone who made money off graffiti "art" from lame-ass bourgeois douchebags, it was always amusing to me to see the desperate need to appropriate graffiti for "art." Graffiti for us was a kind of art, to be sure, but one element of it was always the big fuck you, the ugly and the mean-spirited, yes siree, that's a part of it, and a part of it we loved. Whenever we saw "legal graffiti" we dogged it, straight up. No room for that kind of bullshit.

[-..__...]

47. "Zimmerman Flew and Tyler Knew!"

Are you Turk 182?

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. Didn't much like Turk 182

1) Because the graffiti sucked
2) Because it couldn't talk about graffiti without assimilating it to a family and political narrative

Graffiti is in some sense strange, totally other with respect to the bourgeois value system. It is not purposeful. It is sovereign, wasteful in Georges Batailles' sense; there is no reason for it. The film attempted to assimilate it to the bourgeois value system that would give it a reason and a purpose within that system (expose the Mayor as a result of the brother's injury, etc.). I didn't like that at all, although the film's failure to really capture what graffiti is about only confirms graffiti's otherness.

[Richard Steele]

50. So at least you ADMIT that you love being "ugly and mean-spirited".

QUOTE:
"Graffiti for us was a kind of art, to be sure,
but one element of it was always the big fuck you,
the ugly and the mean-spirited, yes siree, that's a part of it, and a part of it we loved.

Everyone is entitled to be an ignorant asshole SOME of the time;
and we all are, especially during our adolescent years.
You, however, have not only abused that privledge,
but (at the age of 33) you remain overweeningly PROUD of the fact that you did so.

I am not attacking you, merely pointing out a comment of yours which
caught my attention.

Frankly, sir, your own posts on this thread are more damaging
to you than anything I could ever write here.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. I totally agree

From the perspective of the value system mkost people hold, they are precisely that. I'm giving you insight into the graffiti subculture, and I agree that it's not gonna be pretty from your perspective. And I really couldn't care less. Damaging? Yes! Absolutely! It is absolutely damaging...my own posts condemn me. That is absolutely the case. I make no apologies for that. Follow?

And yes, I admit it. That's part of it, to be sure. No question about it. I've tried to be as open as possible about here, too.

[Richard Steele]

56. Well, if you genuinely "totally agree"...

...then perhaps you might be willing
to consider the notion that the many hours you expend every week
playing the role of "gleefully disruptive jester" here at DU
might be better spent upon some seriously introspective self-examination.

The things you do here at DU might have been viewed as "clever"
back when we were twelve...
Soooo many of your posts are the HTML equivalent
of "farting in class" and then giggling about your own cleverness
in doing so.

But you aren't twelve anymore, and neither are we.

You claim to be 33, but you are still in "6th Grade Class clown' mode...
and you cling to the most utterly ridiculous justifications
for the stupid, childish things you did 2 decades ago.

You are clearly brilliant and witty, and you would have been
a pretty AMAZING force in this modern world if you had
MATURED past the Seventh grade.

I weep for the "you" which might have been, but wasn't.

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Yeah yeah yeah

I get the need to insult. I really do. I'm not really sure how this discussion suddenly spread out to cover all my posts, but I guess that's how you manage your response. That's cool. There is, behind my attempt to push the argument a particular way, a logic to the way the graffiti subculture works. I've been trying to perform that logic here, but I better spell it out now. A logic doesn't mean a justification, by the way. There is no justification, but it is precisely the point that graffiti writers don't want or need to justify themselves to bourgeois culture. In fact, they need graffiti to be beyond justification. It's worthy of explanation, because the paradox is that graffiti needs people like you to oppose it. You are a constituent element of the subculture. That's the thesis here, but you need to understand the subculture to get it. If you could withhold your fairly obvious will to judgment for a second (I encourage you to judge afterwards, sure), I'll try to lay it out for you.

Within graffiti subcultures, there are two criteria of merit: 1) aesthetics (called style) and 2) risk. The first is certainly important, but is somewhat beside the point here. In any case, as in any creative endeavor, from poetry to programming, an aesthetic develops, and it is a tough nut to crack for those not steeped in the practice (the elegance of a program, the fine points of poetics), and there are disputes among practitioners as to aesthetic innovation, quality, etc. It's only important for our purposes to know that there are aesthetic criteria.

More important is the criterion of risk. Put plainly, the higher risk (of being caught, of getting hurt, etc.), the more credit you get within the subculture. In this way, the subculture mirrors the operations of capital precisely. A few definitions first. Generally speaking, the different types of graffiti are arranged in a hierarchy, as follows, moving from most admired to least:

Pieces (these are the fully worked out murals and trains that involve many colors, designs, characters, etc.)
Straight letter fill-ins (these are generally two color operations with stylized letters)
Throw-ups (or throwies), but filled in (two colors, but easier and quicker than straight letters)
Throwies, without fill-in (also called outlines, you use just one color, and can get it done in 5-20 seconds)
Tags (like a signature, quick and easy)
Marker tags (tags done with markers, easy and small)
Etchings and stickers - These remain at the bottom of the hierarchy

There are other consequences here as well, like you can do a straight letter over a tag without causing beef, but putting a tag over a straight letter is automatic war. What's more important is what is implied in this hierarchy. You get credit in the subculture for the perceived risk of the act. Pieces are at the top of the list not only because they are aesthetically more difficult, but because they take longer: they expose you to more risk during their execution. This risk element also jumbles the hierarchy. A writer who has thousands of tags in risky locations (major streets, billboards, etc.) may get more credit within the subculture than a writer who has done four or five more aesthtically sophisticated pieces in relatively isolated locations (aesthtically better, but less prone to risk). The best writers are, of course, those who combine all facets: they are aesthetically sophisticated in their tagging, throwies, straight letters and pieces, AND they are "up," that is, they have a lot of work in risky locations.

What is to be inferred from this organization? That opposition and criminalization are constituent elements of the subculture. Without risk, the culture would have little means of allocating merit, and therefore little incentive. No graffiti writer, no real graffiti writer, wants graffiti legalized. The prohibition produces the risk that drives the subculture. It also has other advantages, like cleaning the walls to allow new work, where going over other writers produces internal conflict. People like you, in other words, are necessary for the subculture to thrive. You're part of it, and that's the interesting paradox to me. If you understand the internal functionings of the graffiti subculture, you would understand this: if graffiti was legalized there would be an initial period where you'd see more, but the whole subculture would wither on the vine and die in a few years, because the risk criterion would evaporate.

In any case, cheers. I'll have to go back to the university that gave me the PhD and inform them that I haven't matured past the 7th grade. ;-)

[Gormy Cuss]

85. I have some questions for you, if you don't mind.

How much did you spend on paint in an average month?
Did you know taggers who were from middle class homes in the burbs who came to the city to tag?
In what discipline did you receive a PhD?

[alcibiades_mystery]

94. Answers

1) OK, if the howling has not gotten loud enough already, here goes: real graffiti writers don't buy their spray paint. I'll leave it at that. ;-)

2) I knew plenty of writers from middle class homes, but very few from the suburbs. I knew writers from the projects, I knew writers from the lower middle class, I knew rich kid writers from Manhattan. Hell, DeNiro's kid used to write, if I remember correctly.

3) I prefer to remain anonymous on line, so I don't wanna say too much on that. Let's just say it is in the humanities.

Cheers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. False dichotomy. Or is it trichotomy?

[NoPasaran]

45. Neither

It's just crap.

[The_Casual_Observer]

54. You infer that murder and child molestation might be art too, right?

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. This is the nub for those who see street graffiti as art

To be sure.

I have no such pretentions. I think graffiti is great, but I don't call it art, precisely because it needs its criminality to function. All those who try to assimilate graffiti for art miss the point of the necessary criminality. Likewise, all those who oppose graffiti so vehemntly don't realize that the joke is on them, for without their opposition and aggressive criminalization, street graffiti would probably disappear in under five years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. No, I'm implying.

You're inferring.

[-..__...]

49. It'd be a real shame if the acid slashed back in their eyes.

Not...

But, what the hell... I guess there are inherent risks involved when vandalizing property making a political statement, sticking it to "the man" or bringing art to the proletariat.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Graffiti is none of those things

Even in strawman.

But it is inherently risky, which is also part of it. Ever climb a billboard ladder 80 feet over the Long island Expressway? But why do it if it is not 1) a political statement, 2) sticking it to the man, or 3) bringing art to the proletariat? Well, that's the mystery that non-writers will have to suck on.

[Yollam]

83. Oh freaking brother.

You people really are nothing but ego are you. Nobody is pondering shit, and there is no mystery to solve. Willful and wanton destruction is just that. DOn't flatter yourself by thinking that anyone with a life is wasting time unraveling your "mystery".

:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. Keep posting

:rofl:

[ronnykmarshall]

61. I agree

There are some very nice murals along the 101 in downtown LA that have been ruined by asshole taggers.

One was several decades old looked weather beaten and of course scarred with "tags". The city worked for months to repair it .... now it's covered with graffiti shit.

Fucking scumbags. Someone else's art and hard work ruined by these fuckers.

There are some places where "street art" rocks! There is this one alley in SF where the owners just let the "taggers" paint beautiful works. That's totally cool. But when you selfishly ruin someone work ....... that's bullshit.

[Yollam]

66. I couldn't agree more.

I have had a visceral disgust for graffiti taggers as long as I can remember. In recent years, I've been able to open my heart to the point that I can at least see the beauty and talent in graffiti art that's done WITH PERMISSION.

Hell, I could even deal with graffiti if it was in the name of some kind of message -"REVOLUTION NOW!" on a wall, but it's not. It's just a bunch of adolescent punks wanting to put their tag on everything. ME ME ME. No message, no beauty, no respect. They should be forced to scrub every bit of it off, even if it takes years.

[alcibiades_mystery]

71. LOL

Lovely.

[Yollam]

80. LOL as much as you like.

There was I time when I thought that cops ought to splatter the brain matter of anyone caught tagging all over the pavement, and let it be classified as an "accident",and society would be none the worse off.

I've since moderated in my views and no longer believe in summary execution of taggers, but if one fell off a freeway sign and was pulverized by a Mack truck going 75 mph, *I* would be the one who was "LOL".

[GodHelpUsAll2]

86. I was just

in New York (in the past 2 weeks) and rode the hell out of the subway. I didn't see any etching. Granted, I wasn't looking for it but I did manage to look out of a lot of subway windows and didn't see any of it. So how come the guy in the article says it's been there for the past 6 months and it's on every line and almost every train? Maybe just a bit over embellishing?

[sendero]

87. I think grafitti on..

.. fall-down abandoned buildings is fine. Anywhere else it is a crime.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AngryAmish]

116. We are all in this together

When you choose to put yourself outside the social contract you deserve to be treated as such.

[alcibiades_mystery]

117. Agreed

n/t

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Telly Savalas]

120. I'm sure it would be OK if the people doing the beating

had their own subculture with their own code dictating what is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour. Randomly beating people is a great way of saying "Fuck You!" to everything, and therefore is a laudable pursuit.

LOL
:rofl:

[ALago1]

114. This thread is infuriating

I live in LA in an apartment complex. Recently my complex has been the target of taggers tagging our garages at least once a week for the past 3 months. I don't know if the city pays for cleanup or if my landlord does, but either way I'm paying for it either in rent costs or in taxes. I see them repainting the garages at least once a week...it's clearly not deterring these assholes because a few days afterwards it is tagged again.

What's funny is that a poster above flat out acknowledged that the practice is morally wrong and indefensible but that he condones it anyway because of the "fuck you" attitude that is such a thrill from the practice.

In that case, what's to stop anyone from commiting an immoral act if you can justify it by saying it's to tell people to fuck off?

Unbelievable...

[pinto]

121. Locking for widespread vitriol.

Thanks for your consideration.