You guys been reading Free Republic lately?

[Singular73]

I've been absolutely amazed.

I underestimate those guys sometimes.

When Bush made his little "Most people don't know this, but gas comes from oil" speech, not even the freepers bought it.

When he tried to use the media to "stand up against big oil", they didnt buy it.

You hear terms like "George W Nixon" being tossed around. A year ago, those kind of posts would have gotten pulled in a heartbeat.

Now, they are being fed into, and quite strongly.

See, the thing is, with Bush, everyone eventually finds a pet issue to hate Bush for. And, when given a plethora of choices, most people will find something to hate about the guy.

"What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men. "

Oh wait, I do.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. That "Cool Hand Luke" line is one of my favorites.

And, you're right, eventually just about everyone can find, with this prez, something to hate.

[hexola]

2. Agree - lots of internal conflict in some threads...

Some topics - like the War On Drugs...their opinons are closer to what one might find on DU...

They are still paranoid, intolerant SOBs...but they are coming to grips with some of the big mistakes and lies.

Huge difference in the past year...

[Singular73]

3. Its almost like

they've woken up, and giving the hard-liners some push-back, finally.

[B Calm]

4. I wouldn't get too amazed

these stupid jerks would vote for him again if they had the chance.

[Autonomy]

5. Don't overestimate them!

They are rats fleeing a sinking ship. I suspect they're not happy with his immigration policies first and foremost, and their problem with Bush is that he's not intolerant enough! Goes to show you where they're coming from. Yet they still manage to find ways to blame liberals and Democrats for all their mental problems.

[Singular73]

8. I disagree

Look, these are just Americans that BELIEVED.

If you BELIEVE, and you watch Faux 24/7, you would probably come to similar conclusions.

Not all Freepers are racist homophobe elistists.

What they hate is:

1) Immigration
2) Spending (Which they are right on, as are we).

[adriennui]

10. there's a libertarian group

and they intensely dislike the chimp. not all the freepers are religious, ani-choice bozos.

[Autonomy]

11. Ooooh, careful there!

Their stance on immigration is based on racist xenophobia, and their qualms on spending has nothing to do with invading foreign countries, but rather providing services to the needy. We've come around full circle to that strange place where people of diametrically opposed values happen to agree for radically different reasons. Oddly, Bush-hating is no longer "enough".

[Singular73]

12. Its easy to dismiss that point to xenophobia

..but I think for SOME of them, that is the case.

How I look at it is, we need immigration control purely BECAUSE of the "entitlement" (I hate that term, and the media has totally picked it up) programs...Why should an illegal get social security and medicare that I have payed into for my entire life?

They will bankrupt the system.

No country can claim sovereignty without border control. Period. I don't care what anyone says.

I'm an immigrant. And I did it the right way. And I feel privildged to have been given the opportunity to work my way through the SYSTEM.

[Autonomy]

15. Watch that last step. It's a doozy!

I am wondering if you're saying that "some" (and seemingly a large percentage by what you're saying) Freepers are now liberal Democrats. Or perhaps if you're on the fence a bit yourself. On the immigration issue you sound like one of them, but without the hateful rhetoric. Well, almost without. If you hate the term "entitlement", why do you use it?

Why should an illegal get SS and Medicare? Assuming they do, a contention I am not buying wholesale, just because they're illegal, what makes you think they don't pay into it? If they have SS, then they pay taxes, and are paying into it. If they don't have SS, then they're definitely get paid substandard wages, and are paying into it in a macroeconomic scale.

I'll leave the "sovereignty without borders" bit alone. It's too digressive, complex and theoretical for this otherwise pragmatically oriented discussion.

[Singular73]

19. Thats a load of crap

Some leftists complain the rich don't pay enough, through tax loopholes, etc..., yet you bring out this completely baseless concept of a "macroeconomic scale" of taxation of those not responsible of paying real taxes. Please. As if they are paying their share. Show me any worthwhile statistic that claims this.

I never said Freepers are liberal democrats. An absurd notion. What I stated was that even the freepers, and their moderators, are piling on the anti-Bush bandwagon. And that it is accepted and encouraged.

And that it is real, in a political and in a real sense.

It is easy to dismiss the arguement, if you dismiss the sovereignty arguement.

At that point, we get into fairies and unicorns and the World citizen, blah blah blah.

[Autonomy]

20. Leftists? Isn't that an anti-liberal dysphemism?

It's not baseless that illegals working without a SS card are getting paid a lot less than minimum wage. Also, those people who do not have SS cards are NOT getting the SS and Medicare services you describe. The jobs they do for less money keeps consumer prices lower. No statistics necessary.

Also, let's keep this disussion on the simple-yet-civil level. I've not asked you for statistics to support your claim that illegals are bankrupting the system. (I didn't have to.)

Sovereignty and borders are abstractions. People are real. It reminds me of those who argue that there were never any Palestinian people because there was never an autonomous Palestinian nation-state. No nation-state, no borders. Yet it is clearly an absurd argument to deny that the Palestinian people exist. Yemen does not need a border with Saudi Arabia to maintain a separate national identity. National borders change, yet the nation does not cease to exist. The sovereignty issue is an abstraction here, unless you consider the illegal immigrants to be an invading army defying our collective autonomy. Which leads right into the racist xenophobia at the heart of the issue.

[Kansas Wyatt]

6. Organized Right Wing effort to distance themselves from

George W. Bush, so Republicans up for re-election won't bear the burden of a pissed off majority sending a clear signal and pink slip to BushCo & Republicans, Inc. in control of the Federal Government.

[Singular73]

9. See, this is what bothers me about DU.

According to DU, Voter fraud is rampant, noone's vote counts, but at the same time, Republicans are pandering for re-election.

Which is it?

#2 for sure.

#1? Maybe in 49/51 cases.

But seriously.....

Not to mention, polls show people equally blame the congress (if not more) than Bush for our current direction. They are flailing wildly right now, but its not gonna work. And its CERTAINLY not organized.

[Kansas Wyatt]

16. Well that's why Republicans want the coming election

To be about individual candidates, rather than the rhetoric they have spewed out the last 5 years, about supporting the President Bush and gettin' the job done with an all Republican Government in lock-step, instead of a Democratic House and/or Senate holding everything up.

Bush is the kiss of death for Republicans trying to get re-elected.

If Republicans don't get re-elected and lose the House and/or Senate, then investigations will follow and the cover-ups end immediately.

If legitimate investigations begin and the cover-ups end, then the lid gets blown off what has been hidden from the American people for the last six years and all Republicans will suffer dearly for what happened under their rule.

The shit hits the fan for the Republican Party, and they will reap what they have sown for the last six years.

However, by distancing themselves from Bush and attempting to keep voters focused on their Representative's or Senator's individual actions, it softens the outrage against Republicans and keeps the election races closer. Speaking out against Bush is a ploy to trick people into thinking that all Republicans don't just cave in to Bush (like they have the last six years), and dislike him (Holy Leader before election approached). When you have a close election race, it's easier to switch a few votes and convince people that Republicans really did win, since it was "so close." Easier to maintain a fake democracy, than to contain millions of pissed off people refusing to obey the government and trying to overthrow it.

Make no mistake about it, Freepers and Republicans would rather have George W. Bush campaigning for the Democratic candidates, and reap the reward of a continued Republican Government after the election. And yes, Republicans and Freepers would be shoving it in your face every chance they got, and ranting about how great Shrub is after their victory.

[LittleClarkie]

7. Plus, the true believers are crying about the hateration

against the man they love. Even in the prayer thread! SOB!

Wakey, wakey little sheeple.

[kevinbgoode]

17. Yeah...funny how they don't handle a hate-on very well

but love to dish one out themselves when they don't have any information.

[originalpckelly]

13. I am pleased to see that even the zombies are coming out of the spell(n/t)

[Mz Pip]

14. They will never vote Dem

but they might just stay home.

What a sad commentary that the only hope hope we have of taking out country back is if the wackcos stay home.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[mikelewis]

18. Some Freepers are actually very good-hearted people...

who enjoy torture, high deficits and treason. No one's perfect.