I contend there was no delivery of a Target Letter to Rove - here's why.

[symbolman]

Let's look at some of the reasons why it must be false that Rove has received a "Target Letter". First, many legals agree that when someone receives a Target Letter that they are indicted within HOURS.

Apparently this hasn't happened. If Rove or Luskin had received a Target Letter do you suppose that ALL of the Media would lock elbows and NOT REPORT IT?

Can you imagine a conspiracy that Large, because I cannot. I don't think it's possible or feasible for all of the Newspapers (and their websites), Magazines, New York Post, Dailies, ABC, MSNBC, FOX(well, maybe), CBS, and dozens of stations in all to NOT KNOW or REFUSE to Report it.

Many here are so emotionally caught up in the want for revenge on Rove, myself included, that it's on everyone's minds, nothing they would rather talk about, or BELIEVE. But just because you WANT to BELIEVE something doesn't make it true.

Salon has basically called the Truthout story a dud, specifically. It is not linked on Buzzflash, a wonderful site who is VERY responsible about their content, or Daily Kos another site that is well regarded, nothing on TPM Josh Marshall, who certainly has the credentials and sources to be in the know and has studied the Plame subject to the point where he assisted in a 60 Minutes program. Wouldn't HE Know?

Don't you think Joseph Wilson would know? Wouldn't he be a Prime candidate for an Interview? Who would turn him down? And we know he's a stickler for credibility as this is one of the reasons he was attacked by the administration. For Christ's sakes, his WIFE is CIA? Wouldn't SHE KNOW? Why would they keep this a secret since Wilson wanted to SEE ROVE FROGMARCHED OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, his own words.

Even Raw Story has posted that Rove's Spokesman says he didn't receive a target letter.

Okay so Rove is a Liar, so he may say nothing. Luskin on the other hand, tho he is a lawyer I can assume WOULD NOT BEND FITZ's Words in PUBLIC and say to the Public that the Prosecutor said TODAY that "HE (Fitz) had made no decision on whether to bring charges against Rove" ---LATIMES

Fitz and the Grand Jury have been VERY tight lipped about any information, but Both Fitz and the GJ have told Luskin NOT to LEAK any false information.

Do you really believe that Luskin, knowing that Fitz and the GJ can throw ROVE INTO JAIL, that he would take any chances and LIE about or twist Fitzgerald's words? Fitz has them ALL by the short hairs and they know it.

I DO believe that Rove WILL be indicted, when, there is no telling. The Ryan case took two or more years to complete for indictments to be handed down. I want it too, but not so bad as to suspend all disbelief in the reality of the situation. I've studied this Plame case for over a year, more like a year and half now, and made a film about it for Takebackthemedia.com.

I feel like I KNOW these guys, and while I can't claim to have a "fly on the wall" or secret sources, I DO have some sources and they have contact with people that would ABSOLUTELY KNOW if this had gone down. I have heard nothing, and my mailbox would be full, the phone ringing off the hook, etc.

It hasn't happened.

I'm sick of watching people yo yo'ing around here, emotions being toyed with over something as incredibly significant as this historical moment. People are really Bugging over this, and everyone wants to tell the world what they'd do to Rove, or how it should be handled, or what an asshole he is, and on and on it goes. That's how intense this situation is. So people will be saying things they don't mean, me included, or be pissed off more than usual, or cagey or whatever.

But I am telling you that I do NOT believe this Target Letter was sent before today (unless you count the time that Raw Story said it was delivered before, in Oct of 2005 - I'm not sure when they made the correction to it or a retraction or whatever, the info on that page reads very much like this day has gone, only Truthout is involved, not to diss Truthout or Will Pitt) and may not show up for a LONG time.

I HOPE it's tomorrow, just like many here, but don't let your HOPES get the best of your, keep your fireworks ready for the real thing, and it will be BIG when it happens. I've said for two years that Rove WILL be indicted and I'll tell you why. I figured it out in the course of researching and making my film "Rove's War".

Back in Texas, Rove had the FBI at his disposal. He was ruining lives in the Agriculture Dept, jailing people, almost got Jim Hightower, using the FBI even THEN.

So of course once he gets into the White House he figures he's got it Made in the Shade, OWNS the FBI, CIA, whatever.

There's only one problem, he doesn't. He was Interviewed about the Plame leak BY the FBI when he THOUGHT he controlled them, right at the beginning of the investigation. Fortunately for us, his Hubris was showing and Fitz has copies of those FBI interviews.

THAT is what will sink him alone (not to mention lying 9 out of 10 times to the Grand Jury besides), since that is DOCUMENTATION by the GOVT with the FBI agents as WITNESSES. He's Screwed.

So this is why I don't believe, obviously along with a lot of other highly regarded and well trafficked websites, that there's a story here. I don't believe that Rove or Luskin were served with a Target Letter, today or before.

I'd love to see everyone calm down, so they can REALLY enjoy it when it DOES happen, otherwise a year from now you might wonder why you wasted all that adrenaline.

If anyone has any questions about the Plame outing they would like to ask me I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability, I spent a LONG time reading everything I could, and talking to a lot of people about this for the film.

Relax, it's coming, and it's going to be good :)

[acmavm]

1. I agree. In fact, I have a sick feeling that even if he is indicted, he'll

slime his way out of it with help from his buddy Smirk. Or he's gonna turn on someone else to save his own fat ass. I have a hard time deciding if I would rather see KKKarl in stripes or if it would be preferable (it would probably be better for the country) to see old Dickie come to some severe inconvenience.

[symbolman]

2. As for Dickie

They've got Libby for that, another little squealer..

In Truth this would NOT be the best time to Indict Rove, Fitz eats his cookies from the outside IN, until he gets to the creamy center, and he enjoys every bite from what I've heard...

If they Indict Rove now then what will they get from Libby? Or for that matter, either of them? They just clam up, take some heat, spread the court proceedings out until Bush is nearly out of office then get a "Get Out of Jail Free" card..

But if Rove has HEAT ON HIM, like he does now, by NOT saying what's up he may even crack, look at his weight loss, pretty severe.. this guy may be living on the toilet now :)

I think he's already in Hell, but there isn't a Hell hot enough for what he's done to our country.

[acmavm]

7. I think you're right about Libby. He's gonna take the bullet for VP

Comatose. And I can't really even see Cheney letting them get to him because I truly do believe he runs the show (along w/Rumsfeld and a few other PNACers.)

What really depresses me is the 'pardon power' of Smirk. He could, and will, put an end to everything like Reagan did during Iran Contra. If things start to heat up, everyone will get a get out of jail free card. Somehow I also have a feeling that all this is connected with thousands and thousands of documents being classified and reclassifed as 'secret', too sensitive for the public to know about. Somehow for some reason someone is out there trying to bury 'histoy'. And this is also why these criminals can't afford to lose control of the government and power in 2008.

The only good thing about Iran Contra was that there were hearings, and there were leaks, and there were witnesses, and we did find out what was going on (mostly, I don't believe we ever got to the bottom of everything). But it's not like any of it did any good because look who's back and running the CIA for Pete's sake.

I think we just get to see the tip of the iceberg in relation to what is known by some people in regard to the crimes these people have committed. I think that the really bad acts, the really nefarious crap that these guys have pulled is just beyond reach of a prosecutor. Maybe not if we get them out of control of the House and Senate in 2006, but then again I can't see our dems being overly concerned about the American public even then. They'll still want that corporate money.

[Justice Is Comin]

3. There is no requirement for a

prosecutor to issue a target "letter." In fact, it is not a requirment at all, only that prosecutors are "enouraged" to notify witnesses that they are a target of an investigation. It can be in other forms or not at all.

The almost unprecedented number of times Rove has appeared under oath before a grand jury alone, gives this case new versatility. Not only that, but these were voluntary appearances under the pretext that Rove wanted to explain discoveries and contradictions to his previous testimony. When in fact, I believe they were viewed as further complicating his perjury which Fitzgerald welcomed him to do.

A subtle progressive series of indications of relatively imminent indictment has been revealed almost daily. Luskin no longer says Rove is not a target. He further admits that he is considered a subject of the investigation.

Two, Fitzgerald wasted no time whatsoever after finishing up the Ryan trial. He's before the new grand jury in three days.

Three, Rove is suddenly removed from official Whitehouse policy advising and his policy portfolio recalled.

Four, there is a palpable groundswell of MSM commentators and newspaper reporters rumbling about the ominous signs for Rove; almost like minutes before an earthquake.

Five, Rove himself has now reportedly issued a statement saying he "doesn't know for sure whether he will be indicted or not."

Six, he's in the grand jury room for three hours yesterday, supposedly clearing up "one" issue about Viveca Novak's testimony. That doesn't comport. They were giving him all the rope he wanted to hang himself.



No, I think something huge is about to be announced within two weeks, and I think that announcement will be Rove indicted for lying to federal investigators.

[demobabe]

5. Luskin today said Rove is NOT a target

Los Angeles Times 4/26/05:

"The lawyer added that Fitzgerald has continued to advise Rove that he is not a "target" of the investigation, a legal distinction that refers to a formal notification prosecutors give suspects about to be charged."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-leak27apr27,0,1830720.story?coll=la-home-headlines

And yes, there is no requirement for a prosecutor to give a target letter. But this is not the story we've been given here as Truthout/Jason Leopold very specificly stated that Luskin received a target letter for Rove and that several sources confirmed this.

[annabanana]

11. I think he keeps saying that because

he is not a "target" in that he is not the ultimate target. Maybe he could be viewed as "cocllateral damage". It would be just Luskin being Luskin.

[demobabe]

13. You're either a target or not a target

There isn't a heirarchy of "target-ness."

However, I believe Rove will be indicted, if that's what you're hoping to hear. :)

[Justice Is Comin]

18. First of all

I don't believe Luskin. He's a proven prevaricator of the highest order and thrives on manipulating the press if he can.

He has been trying to use precise lawyer speak ever since the day of Libby's indictment and it is changing almost daily because the likelihood of indictment is closer than ever and he knows it. He is parsing his words to put the best spin on it as long as he can.

I believe he has intimate knowledge of what Fitzgerald is planning and him and Rove are desperately trying everything under the sun to push water back up into the faucet. As I said, I don't believe Rove was sent a formal target "letter." But I believe Luskin was notified through conversations with Fitzgerald and knows Rove is about to be indicted. Or his chances of not being indicted are slim and none.

Fitzgerald would not be able to publicly comment on Luskin's statement, nor would he being the kind of prosecutor he is. He's like a cobra. He doesn't comment about NOTHING relative to his investigations.

I would bet money that the final touches are being put on the formal indictment charges being drawn for presentation to the jury that Fitzgerald is going to request, and it's only a matter now of how many counts he is going to be charged with.

[demobabe]

12. Target letters explained

Everyone should read this from TalkLeft:

http://www.talkleft.com/new_archives/012634.html

Explained target letters for me - there were some things I didn't understand about them.

[uberblonde]

4. You're wrong.

Target letters are often delivered long before the indictment. If this is the basis of your theory, it's a shaky foundation.

[symbolman]

8. I don't recall

did Libby get a Target Letter, and if so how long did it take to Indict him at that point? Sounds like you know a lot about this.

Everyone knows some lawyers, my pals and other lawyers have agreed that it happens pretty quick.

I would also suspect that Fitz dots all the I's and crosses the T's so while it's only Encouraged in the code he's more likely to make sure that the record is complete, this is HISTORY after all:)

[H2O Man]

19. It might be worth

people looking to see what the media reported -- or did not report -- on Mr. Libby getting such a letter. I would suggest that it might shed light on the process, though it would not provide any specific information on the possibility that Mr. Rove did.

[symbolman]

23. Hiya H2OMan

A round of applause please for someone who's delved very deeply into this subject..

I've been doing some more research on the web and I think I can see a solution that answers ALL the issues and even in a way, bails out Mr Leopold..

Here's the scene. Now a Target Letter may not have to be a "letter" at all, tho some kind of agreement may have been reached on paper before today. As folks may recall Fitz met with Luskin AND Rove BEFORE they went into the Grand Jury and had a discussion. There's a possibility that Fitz gave Rove a "Come to Jesus" speech, which is basically, "Look bud, I OWN YOU.. I've got the goods on you, you may as well fess up, plead guilty and co-operate and we'll see what we can do as far as reducing the sentence.."

Now IF according to Leopold there was an Agreement beforehand (maybe on paper), then that letter would "technically" be a "Target Letter", IE Rove in now a Target, but part of the agreement is that Fitz will allow Luskin to state publicly outside and after the Grand Jury meet that Rove is only a Subject and NOT a Target.. Once Rove has pled GUILTY inside to the COOPER LIES, then he technically is NO LONGER a "Target", BUT he still had to deal with two subjects SINCE those lies, Vivica Novak, and the 250 emails..

So, since he's pled guilty to the one charge on this visit "Obstruction of Justice"? "Lying to a Grand Jury" whichever.. he's STILL open to Indictments on these other counts, part of the agreement being to spill his guts, so Fitz can get to the CENTER of the cookie, Bush or Cheney (who can still be btw, charge with "Obstruction of Justice" whether they were under oath or not).. That's why it's been reported that Rove, "Doesn't know if he'll be Indicted yet.."

He gets to walk out and his lawyer says he's NOT a Target, as per the deal with Fitz.

Which means that the look you saw in one photo, the pucker factor reflecting the other end of this monster's face was about 9.98.. It is possible that Rove Pled GUILTY TODAY and may STILL BE INDICTED on more charges, or bled some more for info.

Hopefully leading to Bush or Cheney. And we may never find out what he copped to, or anything for that matter, a lot of this being done in SECRET, and plenty of conjecture.

Ideas?

[H2O Man]

24. Good day to you.

I've got one essay that I was going to post yesterday, which may be of interest to people later today. But, before I post that, I may put up an essay that explains why this topic (the letter) is worth discussing, and perhaps even debating .... but not worth argueing about.

But before I do that, I will say this: Jason Leopold reported what he was told. "What he was told" could be: {1}correct; {2} a lie told to mislead Jason; {3} an honest mistake; or {4} partially right/partially wrong -- Mr. Rove (through his attorney) may have had a letter from Mr. Fitzgerald, requesting his presence on Wednesday for a nice formal chat with the grand jury. If it is indeed choice #4, others who are close to parts of the investigation may have erred in what the letter actually was.

One thing that we can all agree upon, I believe, is that Mr. Luskin sold his soul to the devil for a few bars of gold. Those familiar with Robert will know that statement is absolutely correct. All good attorneys are capable of argueing persuasively that black and white are exact opposites; the better are equally able to argue that black and white are the same thing; the best can convince a jury that black and white have nothing to do with each other. The worst will do anything for gold.

[DemReadingDU]

26. Very interesting, waiting for Fitz's next move

looking forward to reading your next essay!

[symbolman]

27. Sounds to me like Mr Leopold is Teflon proofed then

there seems to be the slightest chance according to your generous points that he could make a mess of this story. I'd like to have those odds, so would a whole lot of other responsible information passers.

Did you know that 375 blogs passed along that information? Which means that RS/Truthout are popular, and while I've never had a problem with Will Pitt's writings, expositions, etc I have had a problem with RS's style of headline now, story later and secret sources..

If he is WRONG, and this is a Very Important Historical event, then that means that 375 blogs will have egg all over their faces. What are they to do about that, go into denial, make up excuses, print retractions? The Blogs are echo chambers for the left, the left needs to be very scrupulous in their fact checking, otherwise the right will tear us to pieces, and WE have ethics which they Don't and so the Left need to be squeaky clean so that the voters will realise WHO actually cares for their needs.

In Journalism, despite the spin that is called "news" now, there are very specific standards, my wife has the book as she worked for a newspaper in Arizona - how many sources, etc. ethics..

We cannot create a false history, or it will be our undoing. At My site Takebackthemedia.com which we kept humming for three years before running off to film, we only had to print ONE retraction for our one mistake. And we also got sued by Michael Savage for a half a million dollars (and WON)..

No, the web is too viral for mistakes of this importance.. what if Bernstein and Woodward had been WRONG? I assume Nixon would have been out anyway, but really, do we know for sure?

And of course this is not argueing, it's debating, and my opinion - it's still a free country so we should all speak up if we see what we consider mistakes or injustices.

Give me those bullet points for Vegas odds and I'll come back and hand you a Million bucks :)

[Loge23]

28. To speculate is to err

The one sure element of this investigation has been it's airtight lid on leaks.
Mr. Leopold has offered several speculative scenarios as facts already. Who's to know if this one (target letter) is legit or not?
Certainly, we all wish for the hammer from Fitz for all of the criminals in this admin. However, it is my opinion, based on the facts thus far, that we don't know any more than what has been publicly revealed in court.
If Rove is indicted (and I think he will be), than I'll happily offer up Mr. Leopold to seer status. Until then however, it's just opinion.

[H2O Man]

31. I quit gambling

after Holyfield beat Big George Foreman. I had to bet on Big George, though .... maybe it was a generational thing. (grin)

I posted a larger essay on the what happened yesterday. I hope that you enjoy it.

[SoCalDem]

6. In some ways I almost wish he's not indicted until Jan 22 2009

that way *² could not pardon him.. :) I know that's not gonna happen, but....

[symbolman]

9. I could wait that long for a good thing

might not be much of him left tho by then, he looks like he's lost 60 lbs !

Maybe he's losing weight as part of an elaborate escape plan, to literally be so skinny he can SLIP through the Bars :)

[SoCalDem]

10. He's probably nauseous 24-7 ...just thinking about

spending time at the Grey Bar Hotel

[symbolman]

14. Wow, I just had a thought

you could have a national lottery so that people could visit Rove at the Greybar Hotel, and get to give a piece of your mind to a captive audience..

Maybe they could bring back the "stocks" and put Rove in them in the city center or a mall where people could put funny hats on him and feed him garbage, and late at night let the Mall have a special Gay Night on Wednesdays where anything goes..

Let them get MARRIED right in front of him, Oh, the HORROR.. (or they could get behind him, whatever works..)

[crispini]

15. OMG I am SO buying tickets for that.

:rofl:

[symbolman]

16. Okay

but you have to stop if he starts enjoying himself, this is all about Punishment..

Oh yeah, then there's "Punishment Night" on Tuesdays :)

[DemonFighterLives]

22. But will they find a broomstick willing to cooperate?

What a great place to hack a lugey!
:rofl:

[SoCalDem]

17. Pay Per View...baybeeee Big bucks :) I'd pay to see it..n/t

[Alamom]

20. Tickets , hmmm. If "THIS" is ever over, will films/movies be

made and I wonder how many it would take to cover the last 5 years.....

While I'm having a nice fantasy here, do they have a waiting period on making movies about "the" public official and pals? :*

[symbolman]

21. Don't forget to visit

Firedoglake, a great blog, LOTS of information there:

http://www.firedoglake.com

I like the pic of Fitz with the title, "Get this man a BEER" :)

[Gin]

25. Rove is slimming down.....daily vomiting sessions work..........HA!

He deserves the hell he has caused to so many others!

[DubyaSux]

29. Although you make some good points...

...I think this still go either way. Primarily because of the sheer number of times Rove has appeared.

If Rove were in the clear, one visit would have seemed to have done it. He would have plenty of opportunity to state his case that should have kept him at a decent arm's length. If a few things weren't clear (simly due to the enormous amount of important conversations he has with many people), I could see a second trip.

But 5 trips? I just don't see how it could be plausible that someone needs 5 trips in front of the grand jury to keep his/her name clear.

I would suggest that it will be anti-climatic. I could see both Rove and Libby getting pardoned because Bush's poll numbers really have no where to go. Politically, there is nothing that can harm him because he's already mortally wounded (politically speaking, of course). He'll just excuse the pardons to "protect state secrets" that would have to come out in a trial. And Fox news would immediately go down on Bush and swallow.

But hey, that's just me. I could be full of it.

[symbolman]

30. I think the number of VISITS

makes it apparent that there is some kind of deal going on, the only thing not sewn up is how much more Fitz can squeeze out of Rove, how much time Rove may serve (he DEFINATELY DOES NOT WANT TO GO TO JAIL.. Look at the wieght he's lost), and how to break it to the Public..

This has to be framed properly, the public may be expecting a witch burning and all they get are some sealed papers waved at them, and it's all over. Rove resigns and runs the White House from a cell phone until pardoned..

Yep, this may be anticlimactic, just so there's no goddam PITY for that shit puppet in the White House.. I think they should strip them to the waist, chain them all together, give them each a knife and toss them in a locked room, with cameras of course for the Pay Per View :)

[robbedvoter]

32. What about the Reuters story then?:

Rove likely to be indicted (Reuters)

more: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12857.htm

Rove likely to be indicted: Testifies in leak case

By James Vicini and Andy Sullivan

04/26/06 _-- WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush's top political adviser, Karl Rove, testified on Wednesday before a federal grand jury investigating the leak of a covert CIA operative's identity, his lawyer said.

[symbolman]

34. Maybe they aren't being told

Fitz runs a tight ship, and the media is wrong a lot of the time, liberal and right and corporate..

[wiggs]

33. Symbolman: Is anyone going down for outing Plame?

Where is this going? There is obviously stonewalling and obstruction going on...through all of that will there be a pathway to getting to the bottom of the fundamental misdeed?

Thanks

[symbolman]

35. I'm not hopeful in the end

I think that IF Fitz indicts them all it may not matter other than to make a bunch of people feel good for a while, in the end it may be Pardon, Pardon, Pardon..

Seen so many presidents pardon HARDCORE drug runners (like Bush Senior)..

There MAY be a chance if we somehow take both houses to Impeach and put them all in Jail, but with Diebold it's not likely, we may even be looking at Condi Rice as the actual President if we don't stop what's happening with electronic voting.

Scary times, they may have all won anyway, like Global Warming, it may just be too late..

Hope against all odds that we somehow take back the govt, I mean these bastards DO screw up, and they may even screw up some Diebold plan and we could win that way :)