Dimwit Chicago Aldermen ban foie gras

[AngryAmish]

Big Brother lives.

"CHICAGO, April 26 — The City Council voted Wednesday to make Chicago the first city in the country to outlaw the sale of foie gras, the fatty livers of geese and ducks that many consider a delicacy but animal rights advocates describe as a product of inhumane treatment.

The ban, adopted on a vote of 48 to 1, makes "food dispensing establishments" — restaurants and retail stores — subject to a fine of $500 for selling foie gras. The ordinance, which takes effect in 90 days, will be enforced by means of citizen complaints, said Joe Moore, the alderman who sponsored it."

The busybodies win again.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Someone please educate me

I don't understand why foie gras is any worse than any other part of the geese or duck.

[FSogol]

3. IIRC it is created by force feeding geese. n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

74. Here is what it looks like to make Fois Gras.

[SammyWinstonJack]

121. That's not right. What a horrible practice!

[Patsy Stone]

2. Fun fact

Iron Chef America won't let the chefs use foie gras.

[JVS]

19. Blasphemy! Our Iron Chefs will fall behind and when the Japanese...

Iron Chefs make a foie gras, truffle, and caviar casserole with homare lobser sauce, we will be unable to stop their march of delicious richness!

[Patsy Stone]

31. That's a fact.

I have a friend who was on Iron Chef. She is a wizard with foie gras but was told she could not use it because it was politically incorrect. She also said Alton Brown is even better looking and nicer in person -- like that's possible.

[Marnieworld]

75. I love Alton Brown

Jealous of your friend.

[theHandpuppet]

158. It's not politically incorrect so much as barbaric

It's just pure, unadulterated animal torture.

[Sanity Claws]

4. Busybodies?

Why do you put down people with concerns about animal cruelty as busybodies?
How people treat animals is a reflection of how they treat people.

[AngryAmish]

5. Because they are, in fact, busybodies

[Ian David]

12. I'm all in favor of eating tasty animals...

in fact, sometimes when I'm in a bad mood, I buy live lobsters just so I can have mock trials before I boil them alive. I don't actually eat them. I just like taking them home and boiling them.

I have little twinges of conscience when I eat veal, but even that seems more benign compared to what is done to the geese.

Shoving a tube down a live animals throat and force-feeding it so that rich people can impress their friends is a little too much.


PS: I was kidding about the lobsters.

[Sanity Claws]

16. Don thy asbestos-underwear!

I want to flame you so badly.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

18. I feel to be a busybody you have to initiate the intrusion.

The fact is aldermen were lobbied pretty heavily and publicly to do this by some important local restauranteurs.

[electropop]

21. Count me as a busybody.

[ThomCat]

58. You will pardon us

if we don't think it's okay to stap a tube permanently into a goose's throat and force huge amounts of food down it's through continually. That's how they produce this stuff. It's not a healthy goose liver they're removing and using for food.

Even if you are all in favor of eating animals do you really want to support torturing animals just to create certain types of food?

[DrGonzoLives]

115. Wow

I'm no PETA-guy, but...wow. Your attitude is astoundingly ignorant.

[laheina]

156. Because they are, in your opinion, busybodies. nt

[Burning Water]

61. No it isn't.

I will definitely eat animals. But not humans, even in my most terrifying nightmares. I will buy and sell animals, but not humans. You've got it exactly reversed. People will treat animals like they will treat humans, or worse. But not the other way around.

[Ian David]

6. Can't they invent a reduced-cruelty foie gras?

Is it really necessary to force-feed a goose to make the stuff?

Would anyone be able to tell the difference in taste between tortured and non-tortured goose liver? Is it possible that non-tortured goose liver actually might taste better?

I've eaten foie gras, before I learned how it's made. It's pretty good. But it's not so good that I think it's worth force-feeding geese to make it.

I'd actually pay more for "free-fed" foie gras, which would actually be less labor-intensive for breeders to make in the first place.

[GrumpyGreg]

10. They need a high-fat content liver which wouldn't occur naturally.

It's cruel and abusive and I would never eat it.

[Ian David]

22. You're not missing much. It's not THAT good, anyway

I prefer "fake pate" made with things like salmon, myself.

Veal is delicious. The good veal, I mean. Not the food service "breaded veal patties" you get in high school. I can see why someone would pay all that money and torture a cow to get something that yummy.

But Pate? It has a very low yummy-to-cruelty ratio.

Torturing a goose for pate is like stabbing someone for twenty bucks.

[prolesunited]

69. Interesting set of standards

Veal has a higher yummy-to-cruelty ratio so it's OK? :shrug:

Factory-farmed meat is abusive enough (and contaminating your body with enough antibiotics and growth hormones), but to deliberately torture animals (and condone it by consuming things like veal and foi gras) in something people should give more real thought to rather than perpetuating it.

[shain from kane]

39. Did someone just decide one day that he would force feed

a goose with 4 pounds of grain a day to see what its diseased liver tasted like? It had to have occurred in nature sometime to originate the idea.
But then there's that person who one day decided to fry and eat whatever came out of that area near the butt of a chicken.
Or the story of the bravest person in history - the guy that took one look at a raw oyster and thought that it has to taste good, and decided to eat it.

[NoPasaran]

70. I've always thought

The first person to eat cauliflower must have been pretty damn hungry!

[charlie]

141. Or drink milk

I'm gonna squeeze that pendulous bag between Bossie's legs... and drink whatever comes out. Ook.

[FSogol]

76. Its not like they ran out of Pop-Tarts and decided to eat oysters.

;-) Our primitive ancestors probably tried to eat everything they could pick up. Whatever didn't make there stomachs ache got added to the menu.

[GrumpyGreg]

154. I love raw oysters.

[Dora]

11. That's a good point. It could be similar to the difference in beef....

Studies have shown that pasture-fed beef is much healthier for the human body than feed-lot beef. I wonder if the same could be true for fattened goose liver?

[Cleita]

34. I'm mostly a vegetarian (not strict) but last year I was found

to be anemic and my doctor ordered me to eat lean red meat as well as take iron pills. I gained ten pounds although I didn't eat more in volume than I usually do. I wonder if the growth hormones given to cattle had anything to do with this? Since I didn't increase my fat intake or calories, I believe it had to be something like this. I wonder if there are any studies about it?

[Dora]

41. My first thought/wonder would be...

Perhaps your weight gain could be attributed to your body's ability to better assimilate the nutrients and proteins it was getting from the addition of meat to your diet. Not to dismiss your concerns about growth hormones - I'm on that page too, as we buy only natural/organic meats.

The body does funny things sometimes. My PA just told me that if a body is used to taking vitamin supplements every day, it will stop assimilating those nutrients available in food.

Did your doctor test your B12 levels? I have B12 anemia, which is sometimes misdiagnosed as an iron anemia.

[Cleita]

84. Yes, my doctor did. It was iron deficiency anemia, which

is gone now so I'm back to eating very little in the way of animal products. I really don't trust our meat supply.

[Dora]

89. I'm glad you're better.

Anemia can be so tiresome. :)

I have the same mis-trust of the meat supply, but I'm not ready yet to eliminate meat from our diets. I so, however, trust the store I do all my shopping at. It's part of the Wild Oats chain.

[Cleita]

108. I wish we had something like "Wild Oats". I'm stuck with

Albertson's. However, living in a rural area, we sometimes can get decent pork chops and ribs from an acquaintance, I will call Larry the pig farmer. Larry is good to his pigs and sells his meat products to restaurants and friends.

[Southsideirish]

87. I used to be anemic and borderline years ago. Have been "veg' for 10 yrs

and now my blood levels are perfect.

[Cleita]

88. I think I'll be okay from now on.

Back then I was going through a bad patch after my husband died and I wasn't eating healthfully, just junk food that didn't have animal products in it.

[madame defarge]

30. How about tofu fois gras... lol... n/t

[GrumpyGreg]

36. Say "tofu fois gras" five times---quickly.

[Ian David]

56. I've seen Mushroom foie gras. n/t

[Sinti]

66. Pate can be made without force feeding

From basically any liver product, including chicken livers (personally I don't think they taste all that good, but meh). There is a lamb pate that isn't made with liver at all that is absolutely fabulous. Force-feeding geese, or the horrors to calves should be unacceptable to a civilized society. Unusual cruelty such as this is unnecessary, period. As to the illegality making it a blackmarket specialty, how many people eat blackmarket foods when there's no war (with rationing) at home? BTW, my background is French, I have eaten pate all my life, just not foie gras.

[Wilber_Stool]

127. Maybe they could force them to

smoke a lot of pot. That ought to help with the appetite.

[Ian David]

166. Geese stoned on pot might make nice, mellow pets, too

"HoooOOOoonk HooOOOoonk, man... HooooOOOoonnnnk dude... hey, got any more breadcumbs?"

[Karmakaze]

7. Not so fun facts...

Foie gras, which is French for “fatty liver,” is made from the grotesquely enlarged livers of male ducks and geese. Kept in tiny wire cages, the birds have metal pipes repeatedly shoved down their throats and up to 4 pounds of grain and fat pumped into their stomachs every day. This cruel procedure often causes severe injuries or death. Those who survive the force-feeding suffer from a painful illness that causes their livers to swell to up to 10 times their normal size. Many birds become too sick to stand up. When the birds are slaughtered, their livers are sold for foie gras.

http://www.goveg.com/feat/foie/

Assuming this site isn't bullshitting, then I would have to say this ban is a good thing. I mean seriously, force feeding ducks 4 pounds of grain a day for a "delicacy"?

[Sammy Pepys]

8. I've never had foie gras...

...nor am I especially tempted to try it, but give me a break.

Are they going to ban sales of oysters for dining purposes next because sometimes they're still alive (when raw on the halfshell) when you eat them?

[Ravenseye]

9. What's the difference?

I mean honestly. If you're going to chop the duck's head off anyway and eat the liver, what does it matter if you're force feeding it or not. How can you have animal cruelty on something you're going to kill to eat? Isn't the next step from that banning the killing of ducks to eat them?

I just don't get the logic.

[Karmakaze]

14. The difference is calld "suffering"...

You may find it hard to tell the difference, but I would prefer that animals not be TORTURED for a "delicacy". And no I have no problem eating meat, I love the stuff. But this is just cruel:

Foie gras, which is French for “fatty liver,” is made from the grotesquely enlarged livers of male ducks and geese. Kept in tiny wire cages, the birds have metal pipes repeatedly shoved down their throats and up to 4 pounds of grain and fat pumped into their stomachs every day. This cruel procedure often causes severe injuries or death. Those who survive the force-feeding suffer from a painful illness that causes their livers to swell to up to 10 times their normal size. Many birds become too sick to stand up. When the birds are slaughtered, their livers are sold for foie gras.

http://www.goveg.com/feat/foie/

[Ravenseye]

32. Doesn't it suffer to be killed?

Look i'm not for torturing animals, but I just don't why people get up in arms about animal cruelty when they're just going to turn around and kill them anyway.

So it's wrong to force feed a duck for a few weeks and then kill it and eat it, but it's fine to just kill it at the start and fry it up? How's that any better?

[lukasahero]

52. There is a difference between torture and killing

Killing CAN be done quickly and painlessly. Torture, by it's very nature, cannot.

That is not to say that killing necessarily IS done quickly and painlessly, nor that the environment many farm animals are raised in is particularly humane. But this is pretty much beyond the pale.

[LostinVA]

57. The exact thing I was going to say n/t

[Ravenseye]

63. I disagree

I don't personally ever want to be tortured, but I don't want to be killed either. Separating me from my life, my family, etc. I just wouldn't want either.

I just feel that people are trying to make themselves feel better about eating meat by pretending that it matters that you give the cow a nice scratch behind it's ears and friendly pat on the rump before you put a nail gun up to it's head. If it makes you feel better fine.

[laheina]

159. Just because two things are equally undesirable to you,

does not make them equivalent. Most people would prefer a clean shot to the head, rather than weeks of suffering before death, even if the end result is the same.

[Arkansas Granny]

73. Having grown up on a small farm, I can tell you that any farmer

who practices responsible husbandry of livestock is humane, even to animals being raised for slaughter. When an animal is slaughtered, it is done quickly and as painlessly as possible. I've never met anyone who raised calves for veal or geese for foie gras, so I don't know how to explain these practices as compared to the methods that I saw used by the farmers I knew when I was younger.

[lukasahero]

107. My apologies as I didn't make clear, AK Granny,

that my questioning the humane treatment of farm animals was directed solely at industrial farms.

[Arkansas Granny]

112. I guess I didn't make myself very clear either, as I was trying to

reinforce the point that you were making. Many people without experience with farm animals tend to think that their lives are pretty much abysmal, but that is not always the case. I suppose the industrial farms and feed lots would not be too pleasant, but most animals on family farms are treated as a valuable commodity.

[lukasahero]

114. Ah. Tripping over ourselves here, are we? :)

:hi:

I think the industrial farms are what get the attention (and the money). Small farms are a huge part of our heritage and they are sadly disappearing.

[blonndee]

15. Um, because it's ongoing torture, that's why.

Your slippery slope argument is weak, too.

[Ravenseye]

35. I don't see how

Look I eat meat, not a ton...on the whole I eat mostly vegetarian but i've been known to eat meat here and there.

The thing is people get all up in arms about torturing an animal that they're going to eat anyway. If you're so concerned about the animal suffering then you shouldn't eat it at all.

[Karmakaze]

71. I heartily disagree.

What you are saying is if its ok to eat meat, then its ok to torture animals. That is just plain wrong. People eat meat because it is a natural part of their diet. We don't NEED to torture animals to eat them, though some would argue (and I am one) that we DO need to eat meat.

The point is to minimise the suffering of the animal. But in the case of foie gras, they have to maximise the suffering to get the desired results.

Your argument is much like saying "well we are going to execute the prisoner anyway, so its ok if we cut off his ears and penis first - If you are so concerned about his suffering then you shouldnt allow us to execute him at all!"

Im sorry, but I do not buy that argument.

[Ravenseye]

99. I'm not saying any such thing

I'm just saying it's hypocritical to say that it's wrong to torture animals that are your food but it's not wrong to kill them and eat them anyway. Either way is 'suffering'. Either you're ok with suffering or you're not. I'm not judging that. I'm just saying that pretending that killing an animal isn't 'suffering' is sort of hypocritical.

[kahleefornia]

79. you don't honestly think

that the momentary pain of a quick slaughter is the same thing as months of pain from overfeeding via metal tube?

As long as the animal is not still alive while you're eating it, it isn't feeling much discomfort there.

[Ravenseye]

98. Yeah but it's dead

it no longer enjoys ANY life. Isn't that suffering?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

146. There's no way I can reply to this rationally.

All I can do is point at this post and let it shine in its own obtuseness. Jesus H. Q. Rhyste on a pink, yellow-polkadotted, nuclear powered pogo stick.

[arwalden]

150. Ooph!

:rofl:

[Scout]

152. don't do that without warning me first!

:spray:

:rofl:

[RebelOne]

83. I am very concerned about animal suffering,

so that's why I don't eat the animals.

[Ravenseye]

96. See that I understand

That's at least a consistent argument.

I get these two points

1) I don't believe in making animals suffer, therefore I don't eat animals.
2) Animals are my food, I eat them. I don't care whether they like it or not.

I just don't get this one.

3) Animals are my food, I just don't want them to suffer.

They're suffering to be your food. Period. After that it's just a matter of degrees, imho.

[toopers]

90. Your going to die anyway . . .

why don't you stick a nail in your forehead on a daily basis.

Mods -- this is not a threat.

[Ravenseye]

94. I'm not going to cause my own death

point taken, I understand it's not a threat. ;)

The difference is in whether or not I'm the one killing the creature. I just think it's hypocritical to talk about how nice you are to the animal before you butcher it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

I am not an animal rights activist

but this is one of the cruelest things I have ever seen. It ranks up there with clubbing baby seals.

I would have thought no big deal - just like you - until I saw a video posted here. It is unspeakably cruel how they treat these birds. They force feed them and they are so fat they can't stand up. And they linger like that - in cages - for months and months until they are fat enough to kill. In some ways it is worse than the baby seal killing because they suffer for so long.

I could never eat foie grass after seeing that.

[Ravenseye]

37. I never said it wasn't a big deal

I just dont' see why peopel would get up in arms about torturing something that they plan on killing anyway. That just seems weird to me. Either be ok with it being your dinner, or don't eat it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Killing is one thing

Torturing is another thing entirely.

[Ravenseye]

51. I don't know

How do I look doubtfull and unconvinced online. ;)

Seriously though, I mean. How is either really ok? Abstractly I think everyone on this board would say that both torture and killing are bad. Yet are we supposed to really make that distinction? What's better: To be tortured for weeks then killed brutally, or painlessly killed in your sleep? Well the answer is obviously the painless way. In that regard if you're going to eat an animal which is the better option? Obviously the one that doesnt' involve torturing the poor animal.

My point though is that it's a bad argument. You're essentially selling which is the better of two evils as justifictation. "Well it's much worse to..." is all well and good, but in the end you're going to cut it's neck in half and eat it. I just don't get the suppposed higher moral ground in that case. Once you determine the animal to be food which you are going to consume, then you've already basically determined that it's rights and own feelings and thoughts are really shit. You 'care' how that bird feels yet you're going to kill it and eat it?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

[donsu]

23. it's called TORTURE pain is inflicted on purpose

we americans also torture calfs in order to make veal.

[Ravenseye]

40. So isn't it torture to simply kill an animal?

I mean I don't care how 'fast' you're going to kill that cow, what makes you so high in mighty that the animal didn't 'suffer'. It was just killed so we could eat it! I'm not condoning the torture of animals, but honestly if we're going to label something as food, which we're going to kill and consume, we should be at least honest about it.

[Ian David]

28. The difference between being beheaded vs tortured to death over weeks

Which would you pick?

[Ravenseye]

42. Obviously I'd pick neither

Both options suck. That's sort of my point. Why are we saying how wrong it is to 'torture' an animal for a couple of weeks when we're just going to cut it's head off? Both suck and are 'cruel'.

It's like the 18th century French claiming how civilized they were for getting rid of long drawn out excecutions and using the guillotine. In the end the guy is going to get his head chopped off no matter what.

[Ian David]

53. Yes, being executed or killed for food does suck

But if you adopt a dog from the pound, is it okay to beat and torture it because eventually you're only going to be putting it to sleep someday anyway?

What's the difference between torturing an animal for "sport" and torturing it to make it taste better?

"Hey, see that cow? Maw and Paw want us to slaughter it next week. Say... why don't we stab it with our pen-knives for a few days first? I reckon it's a gonna die soon anyway."

[Ravenseye]

60. That's a different thing though

If you adopt a dog from the pound your intention of aquiring the dog isn't to kill and eat it, at least I hope not. ;)

The difference is that when you adopt that dog you're not doing it to aquire a food source, your goal isn't to kill it to consume. Putting a dog to sleep at the end of it's life is an act of mercy. If you adopt a dog and torture it you're a sick fuck. If you adopt a dog and it's healthy and you kill it you're a sick fuck. If you adopt a dog, and you torture it and then kill it, you're a sick fuck.

What's the difference between torturing an animal for sport of for food...I dont' really see any. Depends on what you're doing to it, but sure. Torture is torture. Killing is killing. I see no difference.

[geniph]

45. Exactly.

Look, I'm no extreme AR activist - I'm more of an animal welfare person than an animal rights person - but there's a huge difference between rearing an animal humanely and slaughtering it humanely, and systematically torturing it for months before slaughtering it. That's one of the principles behind kosher or halal meats that I agree with - the animals have to have been treated reasonably decently and slaughtered as humanely as possible.

[Ian David]

47. It depends on what the animal's done

If it hates freedom, or if it was arrested in the vicinity of a bunch of evil-doers...

[Ravenseye]

55. I don't think i'm making my point well here at all

I don't get the whole 'rearing an animal humanely and slaughtering it humanely'. You can rear something humanely, but if you're doing it to 'slaughter' it and eat it, then I don't know if I could label it 'humane'. Or maybe that's very appropriate.

My point is that if your eventual goal is to hang it upside and slit it's throat so it can bleed out fast, so you can eat it....well that's cruel. To make a distinction about how 'nobly' you treat it upto it's death seems like just bullshit to make people feel better.

If you're going to kill something to eat it you shouldn't have to have qualms about that stuff. Either be happy with who you are or don't, but don't lie to yourself. If you're eating meat you've killed an animal and killing something is cruel. Wehther you tortured it before hand or not is really just an afterthought at that point as you've ENDED IT'S LIFE.

That said I enjoy the rare good steak (I eat meat so rarely that it has to be good quality when I do) and have no qualms about where it comes from when I do.

[girl gone mad]

72. It's a quality of life issue.

People are offended by this practice for the same reason many prefer to eat meat eggs from free-range animals or like zoo animals to be kept in areas that mimic their natural habitat.

Some people believe that every animal deserves a good quality of life, regardless of its destiny.

There is nothing bullshit about it. It's the difference between treating other species with respect and dignity and treating them like garbage. Of course it matters how an animal is treated while it's alive.

[Ravenseye]

101. How is killing somethign to eat it treating it with respect and dignity?

I'm sorry but to say an animal doesn't 'suffer' when you eat it is ludicrous. TAking away something's life is suffering no matter how you look at it.

I'm not condoning animal torture here, I'm just saying that if you're going to kill an animal to eat it, you shouldn't pretend that being free range before hand somehow eases the suffering you're causing by slaughtering it and ending it's life.

[girl gone mad]

161. No.

Treating an animal with respect and dignity while it is alive is treating an animal with respect and dignity. Torturing an animal is torturing an animal. Force feeding an animal into disease is torture.

Allowing an animal to live free range eases the suffering caused during its lifetime. That's a completely separate issue from slaughtering an animal later for food.

You are playing a game with semantics. Torture and killing are different events. Not torturing an animal before you kill it is more ethical than torturing an animal before you kill it. Period. To say that it doesn't matter whether or not you torture an animal while it's alive because that animal will ultimately be killed is, frankly, ridiculous.

[politicat]

50. It's the difference between causing suffering and a quick death.

The chickens on the farm where I get my eggs and chicken are free-range, pastured, and basically spend most of their day pecking and scratching and flapping and acting like a chicken. Yeah, they're not the brightest or cuddliest, and they're also the epitome of the term "bird-brain", but they have pretty good lives. Far better lives than industrial egg hens or chicken-house birds. And really, a chicken as it has been bred and domesticated, cannot survive without us. We provide them shelter and protection from really nasty deaths at the hands of the other predators (Coyotes like viscera, and wildcats have been known to "play" with their food) and we get eggs, feathers and meat out of the deal. They fulfill a necessary ecological niche for us - when pastured they help keep the pasture aerated, distribute seeds, and keep insects under control.

Those chickens never suffer a day in their lives. Their worst day is the day they get thrust from the chick pen (which is warmed and very cozy) into a real pen -- and they have adult feathers, they're not cold, they're not getting sunburned. It's like the first day of school - awkward and scary, but neither terribly painful nor dangerous. The hens lay eggs because that's their genetic legacy, not because they're crowded into a cage and starved into laying. (In terms of ethical vegetarianism, I will give up eggs as far more cruel than the pastured beef and milk I buy. The cows don't suffer.)

And when it's time for slaughter, they die easily. It's a quick slice. It's a far easier death than they'd get from a coyote or a wildcat. Yeah, they don't have their families and an organ and a satin lined coffin, but chickens don't go in for that much. ;)

Compare that to a fois gras goose: kept in a pen too small to ever stretch out his wings. Force fed with a pipe down his throat. The enlarged liver is basically the result of diet induced illness, and even standing upright can bruise it, and a bruised liver will kill the goose in great pain.

For me, that's the difference. I live in a place where the plants that grow best are grasses, and I can't eat grasses, so I have to go up the food chain. It is irresponsible for me to eat nothing but vegetable matter that has to be trucked in from 1000 miles away when there are ecologically responsible choices at the end of my street.

[Ravenseye]

67. I'm NOT saying don't eat chicken

I eat meat.

I'm just saying that I think it's sort of hypocritical to talk about how nice a life the chicken has before you chop it's head off. I'm trying to think of a science fiction equivalent.

Basically two men captured by aliens in an UFO. One is kept confined, poked and prodded for weeks. Given electrical shocks, burned, force fed. The other man is kept on a large king sized bed with 1000 count silk sheets, a large balcony overlooking his own personal pool. Massages, good food if he wants it. Then at the end of the two weeks both men are led to another room where their heads are hacked off neatly and their bodies eaten by the aliens.

It seems sort of strange to argue about the accomodations for peopel about to be put on a platter.

[geniph]

92. What earthly difference does it make whether it's going to be eaten?

Look. You're going to die, too. What happens to the meat after you die isn't the issue. The fact that you're going to die - whether as a result of being deliberately slaughtered or at a good old age in your own bed - isn't the issue. What's the issue is whether we inflict deliberate lasting cruelty, pain, suffering on a creature for the length of its life. You seem to be hyperfocusing on the fact that they're killed and eaten. To me, dying is not something I greatly fear, and I could give a shit whether or not the meat is eaten after I'm dead. I DO, however, greatly fear and avoid pain and suffering. Because I myself would not care to be confined and tortured for my remaining days - however few they may be, and whatever fate I go to afterward - I do not care to inflict such suffering on others.

[Ravenseye]

95. I'm not causing my own death for that purpose though

It's hypocritical to talk about how nice you are to an animal right before you butcher it.

[geniph]

148. But no one is talking about "being nice" to the animal

they're simply talking about not engaging in protracted torture of it. Do you actually not see the difference?

[JVS]

13. Iron Chefs from France, China, and Japan express outrage!

[SteppingRazor]

17. I try to avoid eating internal organs in general...

but this is a bit absurd.

[shain from kane]

59. I draw the line at semi-internal organs myself. n/t

[acmavm]

20. Hey, just another new category of smuggler soon in the

Chicago area.

[JVS]

25. Bootleg foie gras, mmmmm

[KamaAina]

105. A foie gras speakeasy in Evanston?

Or Oak Park?

"Password?"

"Force-fed."

"Sorry, that was last week."

edit: spelling

[JVS]

138. Yeah, see. We're expecting some pate and no monkey business, see?

[RebelOne]

24. That is good news. Kudos to those "busybodies."

[Zen Democrat]

26. Here's another vote for the busybodies!

[Cleita]

27. Why would a law that addresses inhumane treatment

of a lesser species be bad? I think they should also ban lobsters and crabs that are boiled alive. There is a way of killing them instantly before throwing them in the pot.

[Ian David]

44. I once tried giving a lobster a shot of vodka to ease its pain...

trust me, you don't want to do that.

They die pretty darn quick when they hit the pot anyway. Just make sure it's at a FULL boil.

And how sensitive to pain can something possibly be that can lose a whole limb and grow it back with apparent casualness?

"Ah-hah! Victory is mine, Larry Lobster!"
"No, it isn't."
"Look, I cut your bloody claw off!"
"Eh. It'll grow back..."



The teeny-tiny brains in these aquatic relatives of spiders turn-off pretty quick and don't process a whole lot of information.


And when they die, they're reincarnated as a higher species.

We're doing them a favor, really.

Would you want to be a lobster?

If I were a lobster, I'd be anxious to shed my mortal coil.

[Cleita]

86. If it's so painless, why do they scream for a couple of minutes

before they die? You can kill them quickly by inserting a sharp knife behind their heads clean through. Then throw them on the pot. I have never done this but I did watch the Galloping Gourmet do it on television once.

I personally eschew Lobster and other seafood that remind me of bugs. I'm not Jewish but I would be quite comfortable with the kosher ban against seafood other than fish with fins.

[Ian David]

97. The lobster scream was an urban legend that's been debunked

Lobster brains are teenie-tiny. It would be pretty hard to "skewer" one.

Faster, easier, and probably quicker just to boil them head-first.

I'm certain that if Lobsters are boiled head-first they probably don't feel much of anything.

However...

I will never EVER order Lobster at a Hibachi-style Japanese restaurant.

They put the live lobster on the table and place a metal lid over it. The poor litle critter tries to run away.

Head-first in boiling water is much faster.

[Cleita]

103. I don't think so.

My stepdaughter and her first husband boiled some crab at one time and she said never again because they screamed. This is a first person account. She was only nineteen at the time so she was pretty shocked about it. As she is a very kind person, I think this was part of the reason they divorced, not the crabs per se but the general attitude of hubby #1.

[Ravenseye]

109. The screaming is steam

They don't scream. The sound is steam escaping from within the shell carapaces. If you put a lobster, or crab, in boiling water they're dead within 4 seconds. Anything else is autonomic reflexes (they are bugs after all) or steam escaping from teh shell. THey have no capacity to actually scream.

[Ian David]

111. I've heard that. They're not screaming, they're singing

"Whee! Eat us! Eat us! We're giant ugly spider creatures that taste yummy in butter! Oh, yeah!"

You just gotta learn how to speak the major Arthropod dialects.

[LeftyMom]

110. It takes a boiled lobster 30-45 seconds to die

They have an acute sense of sensation and definitely do feel pain when boiled alive.

However the shrieking noise is made by the seawater trapped between thier shells and thier flesh turning to steam and escaping out thier joints.

[Scout]

153. steam 'em, don't boil

put some large clean stones in the bottom of a large pot.

put in water enough to bring to a good boil and create steam without bubbling up over the rocks.

when good and boiling and steaming, open the pot and quickly put the lobster in onto the rocks and cover--keep the steam going really well.

boiling does kill them pretty quickly, depending on the size of the pot and the lobster ... you don't want the water to slow boiling when the lobster goes into it.

[Book Lover]

120. I have absolutely never, ever, *ever* heard a lobster scream

I have thrown more than my share in the pot, and never heard what you describe in any way, shape, or form.

[xmas74]

134. Agreed.

I've never heard any screams either.

[guinivere]

144. I'll agree with your agreed.

Never heard any screams.

The diners were squeeking with delight, though.

[xmas74]

145. I bet!

Lobster sounds so good right now.

Wish I could afford one.

[xmas74]

133. I've boiled my fair share of lobster,crabs, crawdads,etc.

I've never heard a scream. I've heard the sound of steam escaping from their shells but no scream.

It's just like putting a tv dinner or a pie in the oven and not making air holes. Both will make a sound when there isn't any outlet for the steam to escape.

[AnneD]

93. When it comes to food I am a devout

Buhddist-whatever falls into the beffing bowl. I have made pate (used chicken liver) and boy was it delish. It would be no more difficult to add chicken fat in the early stages (blend well). It could be done with geese too. There is no need to torture them by force feeding. But I really hate to see the food nazi pull stuff like this. Lets tie up the SCOTUS with cases like this to keep them from really curtailing our freedoms.

[da_chimperor]

128. It's a crustacean, why bother?

Seriously.

Insects are also lesser species, and bacteria.

[Cleita]

149. If insects don't hurt when you squash them, why do they

try to run away and hide from you? I've dispatched my share of bugs to bug heaven but I try to make it swift as possible. If I can relocate them out in my garden I do that too. I see no reason to cause another species suffering when you don't have to.

[ComerPerro]

29. And this affects most people how, exactly?

[RebelOne]

48. It's how it affects the birds.

[BrklynLiberal]

80. Exactly!

Foie gras is one of the most sickening examples of humans’ using cruelty to get “luxury.” The term “foie gras” literally means “fatty liver.” It is the bloated liver of male ducks and geese who are force-fed enormous quantities of food until their livers expand well beyond their normal size. Workers ram pipes down the birds’ throats two or three times a day and pump as much as two pounds of grain and fat into the animals’ stomachs while the birds desperately struggle to get away.5 The pipes puncture many birds’ throats, sometimes causing them to bleed to death or suffer painful wounds. On some farms, a single worker may be expected to force-feed 500 birds three times each day.6 Because of this rush, animals are often treated roughly and left injured and suffering.

Many birds have difficulty standing because of their engorged livers, and they may tear out their own feathers and cannibalize each other because of stress.7 Undercover footage taken at Sonoma Foie Gras shows rats eating the flesh of live ducks who are too bloated and crippled to defend themselves.

This torture lasts 12 to 21 days and causes the birds’ livers to bloat until they are up to 12 times their normal size.7,8 Because of the injuries and disease caused by force-feeding, the death rates on foie gras farms are between 10 and 25 times higher than the mortality rates on other duck and geese farms, and carcasses of animals from these farms show wing fractures and severe tissue damage to the throat muscles

<snip>

Foie gras is so inhumane that, in 2004, the state of California banned the production and sale of products made by force-feeding animals.12 The practice has also been outlawed in the U.K., Germany, the Czech Republic, Finland, Luxembourg, Norway, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, and Israel.13

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming_ducks_foie.asp&h=180&w=240&sz=51&tbnid=fbI-OqhwrcNFOM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=104&hl=en&start=46&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfois%2Bgras,%2Bgeese%26start%3D40%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[theHandpuppet]

160. Norway is a joke

The biggest market for the pelts of baby seals from Canada and unapologetic slaughterers of whales.

BTW, I'm all for banning the sale of foie gras. I just find the Norwegian umbrage on this issue to be a bit hypocritical.

[peacebaby3]

33. I fully support banning torture so good for the people of Chicago. n/t

[4 t 4]

81. I live in Chicago

and I think it's great no matter what you all say torture is one thing death is another!

[Southsideirish]

91. I live here and am very proud of the City Council - for once. nt

[incapsulated]

38. YAY for the "busybodies"!

Animal cruelty laws are nothning new and this ban may draw public attention to this cruel pratice.

:thumbsup:

[anarch]

46. those bastards! next they're gonna tell me I can't torture my dog

or sponsor cat-beating tournaments in my yard. Goddamn busybodies!

[LeftyMom]

49. Oh for fuck's sake

God forbid anybody ban the sale of products of such extreme animal torture. What an intrusion that nobody can jam a funnel down a duck's throat, force feed it cornmeal until it's liver becomes enlarged, fatty and diseased and then kill it to eat it's liver. However can we possibly survive without the dietary staple that is foie gras?

:eyes:

[Ian David]

54. We need to unleash the magic of genetic engineering on this problem...

to create geese that naturally have giant livers.

Then, we can feed the world!

[FSogol]

77. What about the livers of all these obese kids?

Kidding, I'm kidding.

[shain from kane]

113. Maybe cannibals noticed that fatty livers of their victims tasted

better than slim Jims. So the origin of fatty livers in geese may have originated from cannibalism. Forced feeding or forced starvation like was being tried by that Buffalo Bill character in The Silence of the Lambs could have started the idea that something different was needed after the long winter of salted jerky and frozen mastadon steaks, so an experiment was started to make geese taste better. Through natural selection and survival of the fittest, we are now where we are now.
So it may have started with the livers of obese children. At least, that's my theory.

[FSogol]

118. Nah, a geese probably got locked in a grain cupboard and fed

himself to death. He was probably tastier than the typical goose.

[shain from kane]

123. Sounds like we have competing theories. What proof do

you have that this particular goose even existed? Do you expect me to believe that it existed on faith alone? Would this or any goose, considering the size of the bird's brain, or any other creature, knowingly eat itself into such a stupor that it would ruin its liver in the process?

[anarch]

64. I say, it seems someone just doesn't understand the importance

of enjoying the finer things in life. If I can't have my veal, foie gras, and well-beaten dog and cat, how am I supposed to get through my day? Now you'll have to excuse me as I'm off to berate my servant-boy for the wretched job he did waxing the Rolls....

[shain from kane]

124. Tried harp seal, lately? They say the current year's crop is quite good,

after several years of outright gameyness.

[Texasgal]

62. Thank goodness the busybodies win!

The practice of torturing animals for some rich persons delicacy SHOULD be outlawed!

I hope more cities follw-suit!

[donsu]

65. deleted

nt

[BrklynLiberal]

68. Busybodies of the world UNITE!!!

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[mitchtv]

78. First? I don't think so

Think California

[BrklynLiberal]

82. And entire countries, like U.K., Germany, the Czech Republic, Finland,

Luxembourg, Norway, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, and Israel

[LeftyMom]

85. The CA ban isn't effective yet, though it passed several years ago

It's no secret that the foie gras producers are going to try to quietly overturn the ban before it takes effect in 2012 (the bill was passed in 2004.)

[slampoet]

100. Have you noticed that the people who are against foie gras...

...Are the ones who never met a goose in their damn life?

I have raised almost every barnyard animal and gotten along with the even the worst tempered guard dogs.

But, I have yet to encounter a goose that didn't attack every stranger (and most owners) at any and every opportunity. They are german shepards with feathers and I don't feel as bad about force feeding them as i might about the ducks.

[RebelOne]

102. So is that any reason to torture them?

[LeftyMom]

104. Yeah, geese are agressive and a pain in the ass

However that's no more a justification to torture them than an unfriendly disposition is in humans.

[shain from kane]

116. I agree. A goose is so disgusting, that it should be put where the sun

don't shine.

[DrGonzoLives]

117. Clearly, then, they deserve torture

:eyes:

[ThomCat]

129. Wrong.

I grew up around farms, fed geese, ducks, rabits, chickens, cows, goats and pigs. Helped with the slaughter of rabits and chickens. Helped clean and prep lots of stuff. I would never condone torturning an animal.

You're making an absolutely unwarrented, unfounded generalization.

Yes, most geese are foul tempered things. But how does that justify torturing them?

[shain from kane]

131. And most tomcats are foul tempered things. But how does that

justify castrating them?

[ThomCat]

132. My point exactly!

Thank you.

And please don't come near me with that knife. :P

(except that it really is more merciful to cats to get them spayed and neutered. Having huge numbers of feral cats around doesn't benefit the cats or anyone else.)

[shain from kane]

143. I must admit that I do have some experience with hogs. And castration.

Still wash my hands several times a day to get rid of the smell. Some things never get clean.

[The Stranger]

137. Oh my fuck.

Now fear of geese is being used to justify force-feeding creatures to make their livers explode.

Holy fuck.

[DrGonzoLives]

164. The Evil Goose is coming for you

[DrunkenMaster]

106. so let me get this straight

banning a food created through cruelty qualifies as a move by "big brother"?? I think you need to go back and read your Orwell...

[4 t 4]

122. You Know

I'm sorry but I don't get most of this post in what way is this at all negative or x files like to stop the sale of force fed geese Bushbots, Dimwits WTF is this about?? again I live in Chicago and I think this is great!

[Beaverhausen]

119. Excellent!

That kind of busybody is OK with me!

[High Plains]

125. Yes, let's outlaw everything that offends our delicate sensibilities

If you don't like pate de foie gras, don't eat it.

[ThomCat]

130. Torture is hardly an issue of "delicate sensibilities."

[JVS]

139. That seems reasonable

[flvegan]

126. Well, torture is a right wing value

and I'm glad that I'm against it too, regardless of the living being that's subjected to it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

135. I'm a Chicagoan, and I am proud they did this.

"Big Brother Lives"
Yeah, damn that big brother...making people stop torturing animals. What a bastard.

[The Stranger]

136. Did someone hijack your user handle? Holy fuck.

One city decides to stop the live obliteration of these animals, and the aldermen are called "busybodies."

I can't believe my fucking computer screen.

[SoCalDem]

140. I guess humans are supposed to eat EVERYTHING

even if they have to torture animals to get something "extra tasty".:puke:

[Obamarama]

142. DAMNIT...what am I going to order for a starter at Bistro Margot now??

No foie gras....what a culinary faux pas.

[allalone]

147. sorry but I'm with the aldermen

it's fucking cruel, get it?

[dysfunctional press]

151. what about veal?

that's inhumane treatment of a mammal.

and it's delicious when done right.

[BrklynLiberal]

155. Goose befriends elderly man with cancer

Thursday, April 27, 2006 · Last updated 7:07 p.m. PT

Goose befriends elderly man with cancer

ERNAN LAKE, Idaho -- A northern Idaho man diagnosed with terminal cancer says a usually cantankerous goose that befriended him on his walks has helped him live past doctors' predictions.

"I'm 73," Bill Lytle, a two-time state legislator, told the Coeur d'Alene Press. "And I'm not ready to die."

After retiring as project manager for the Bunker Hill Mining company, Lytle and his wife of 52 years, Myrna, moved to Coeur d'Alene, where Bill became one of the founding members of a walking club called the Lake City Striders.

Then last fall his skin turned yellow overnight, and doctors diagnosed pancreatic cancer, giving Lytle only months to live. But Lytle continued his walks, having to cut them down to two miles at a nearby lake, where he met the goose who has inspired him to keep going even when he wasn't feeling well.

"I have to keep walking or I won't make my next December," Lytle said.

The goose, called Mr. Waddles, is a feral domestic goose, a biologist with the Idaho Department of Fish and Game said, offering no explanation for the relationship that has developed between the goose and Lytle. Myrna has thought about that as well.

"I wonder, why would that one goose attach himself to Bill?" she said. "I think he knows he's sick. I think animals can sense that."

The goose, about 30 pounds with a red beak and red feet, approaches Lytle when he calls and rubs its head against his arms. But it snaps at anyone else who gets too close, including Myrna, their daughter, and Bill's hospice aide.

"Sometimes he walks around me, sometimes he walks beside me," Lytle said of the near-daily meetings the two have. "I rub his neck, and the top of his head and down to his back. Every time I came down, he just kept coming out. I think it's pretty nice, that he'd always come to me."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120AP_Friendly_Goose.html

[Ian David]

162. Are geese related to vultures? Maybe it's waiting to eat the old man?

Honk Honk! This is my food! You stay away from him! Honk Honk!

[BrklynLiberal]

167. ROTFLMAO!!!!! Perfect!

[fleabert]

157. yea BusyBodies!

honk honk...

[Thtwudbeme]

163. Damn those people who care about the welfare of animals, and do not

want to participate in cruel practices!

OK..here's the deal--since people couldn't be smart enough to put on their seat belts...we had to have laws about it in this country.

Now that people can't be intelligent enough to have a clue as to where their food comes from, and can't make a decent moral and ethical decision concerning the practice of force feeding geese...then the decision had to be made for them.

Sorry--it sucks having to be TOLD what is the right thing to do, doesn't it.

[Jim__]

165. I'm with the aldermen.

We don't have to torture animals in order to eat.