Best response to religiously-motivated homophobia?

[Bill McBlueState]

Freepers often argue that homosexuality is unnatural, or that it's a sin, or that God hates gays, or that the Bible condemns homosexuality. Below I've listed two possible counters to the idea that equal treatment for GLBT people conflicts with Christianity. Which idea should characterize the progressive response to homophobia?

[lvx35]

1. I think you should just call it bigoted

..and of course making laws off the religion is unconstitutional, but I wouldn't argue Bible unless you are a Christian, which only some progressives are.

[Bill McBlueState]

5. good points

I think we get into trouble if we have to win a religious debate to prove that equal treatment is a good thing.

[rkc3]

6. It's called the Tough Shit clause - tough shit idiots, the country is

based on the Constitution.

[underpants]

2. I voted for what the liberal said about it

which was nothing.

[riderinthestorm]

3. Who would Jesus discriminate against? n/t

[rkc3]

4. There is more in the Bible about keeping leather clean than

about homosexuality - so what's the fuss?

Besides, I've never heard any of these knuckle-draggers give a good reason as to how homosexuality impacts heterosexual marriages. I always thought adultery had more to do with failing marriages - and the Bible covers that topic even more than keeping leather goods clean.

BTW, Leviticus dedicates a whole chapter on leather.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. Leather is very important!

:sarcasm:

[riderinthestorm]

14. I'm a couple decades away from my last Bible reading

But if I can recall, the only ones Jesus ever railed about were hypocrites (the Pharisees) and the temple scene which was really about the defilement around that place.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus never spoke about homosexuality.

That's the answer I always go with.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. "Okay, but what does the Flying Spaghetti Monster say?"

[JerseygirlCT]

8. I never buy the reliously-motivated part

it's religion used as an excuse for hatred. But there's nothing of faith or love in it.

People are looking for a few, often misinterpreted, chunks of scripture -- looking so they can bolster the bigotry they already know and love.

They're the only ones responsible for their bigotry.

[Smarmie Doofus]

On the button. n/t

[MissMarple]

22. Bingo! You nailed it, JerseygirlCT.

There is no way the New Testament supports homophobia, and I dare someone to find a Christian who follows all the restrictions and laws of the Old Testament. Most of them don't follow all of the big ten let alone even know what is in Leviticus. But whatever James Dobson says is ok by them, it gives them all an excuse for what is pure and simple bigotry.

[ComerPerro]

9. I usually use, "Well, until our laws are taken right out of the Bible,

your argument is irrelevant."

[Smarmie Doofus]

11. Get the discussion out of religion and....

... on to another level. People nurture and savor the irrational ideas they have about homosexuality because they get 'something' back... psychologically speaking.... by so doing. It has *nothing* to do with religion.

Although they think it does.

Give them a copy of "The Nature of Prejudice" by Harvard psychologist Gordon Allport.

[glitch]

12. If homosexuality is a choice, when did you choose not to be?

If you didn't choose, on what basis do you assume homosexuals did?

[MurrayDelph]

29. I've had a lot fewer

gay folks trying to talk me into becoming gay than there have been
(so-called) Christians trying to talk me into becoming Christian.

[BOSSHOG]

13. You object WAAAY too much! And stop looking at my crotch.

The bible also says you should stone to death people who work on the sabbath. Do you do that or do you just cherry pick in your book like every other religiously insane constitution hating yahoo?

[MissMarple]

25. Now, that was funny!

:rofl:

[TheFarseer]

15. The Bible says lots of things

Read Leviticus and throw at them all the weird-ass things that book says.

[BOSSHOG]

18. Their logic is really a chuckle

They'll huff and they'll puff and tell you that Leviticus is in the old testament; however, their homophobia comes directly from Leviticus. They'll just pick and choose to justify their hate and ignore the passages they find inconvenient, like stoning people to death who work on the sabbath.

[bunkerbuster1]

20. & ask them how they're translating the "lie with a woman" line

I've read several different interpretations. It's not especially clear that Leviticus even condemns homosexuality as we understand it.

Anyway, we're governed by the Constitution, not an ancient rulebook from a third-tier desert kingdom.

[Warpy]

16. Jesus said nothing about it. "But Paul did..."

Paul was a Johnny come lately who was born the year Jesus died. He never met Jesus. He also had a lot of very stupid things to say about women, things Jesus never would have approved of. He was included in the New Testament because he made Jesus more palatable to bigots.

"Butbutbutbut homosexuality is a choice!" Well, that may be true in some cases of bisexuality, but most gays will tell you they've known since they were young children. By the way, how old were you when you decided to choose to become heterosexual?

They then splutter and stammer and I just walk away.

[megatherium]

27. Where did you read that Paul was born the year Jesus died?

I thought Paul was converted within 10 years of Jesus's death. Paul said stupid things about women and sexuality, but he's also the author of this wonderful commentary on love often read at weddings (1 Corinthians 13):

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

This was written in the 50s (about 30 years after the death of Jesus).

But you're right, Paul never met Jesus; Paul rarely quotes Jesus in his writings. (But in Acts 20 we read that Paul quotes Jesus as saying that it is better to give than to receive.)

And you're certainly right about homosexuality. In fact, here's a good argument I've used: Jesus does talk about divorce, he flat-out prohibits it. Most modern churches have arrived at some sort of accomodation with divorce; if you go to a fundy megachurch, you'll meet tons of divorced singles who are there to meet a new mate. If you press a theologian on this point, he'll explain how the real message of the Bible is compassion, and it is compassionate to allow remarriage after divorce. That's when you bring up the subject of homosexuality.

[Bill McBlueState]

17. hmm, so far we've got 13 votes

And the Constitution is sorta taking a hit. My take is that words in an ancient book, whether or not we happen to agree with them, have to come in second to the Constitution's guarantee of equal protection.

[bunkerbuster1]

23. I went with "both" because bigots need to know they're wrong on

both counts. Their attitude is groundless from both scriptural and Constitutional perspectives.

[Ian David]

19. We swear on a bible to uphold The Constitution...

we don't swear on The Constitution to uphold "The" Bible.

[bryant69]

21. I think if you get in a theologically based discussion

it won't go well. Well in all honestly it's unlikely to go well in any advent. But sticking to the law is probably safer.

Of course it also depends on what your goal in talking about this is - obviously if the intent is to make you feel good by slamming into someone who disagrees with you, you should probably use as harsh a language as possible.

But if your goal is discussion - I'd stick with the legal arguments.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Bill McBlueState]

24. so Jesus has a pretty negative opinion of divorce

If we should accept homosexuality because Jesus didn't really condemn it, should we oppose divorce because Jesus condemned divorce?

Or is there another standard to follow, that should work for people of all religious opinions?

[blogslut]

26. Here's my favorite Bible passage EVER

I always throw this one at em as I believe it to contain the true meaning of taking the Lord's name in vain:

ACTS:

19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

19:14 And there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jew, chief of the priests, which did so.

19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Baffles the shit out of em' O8) :evilgrin: O8)

[glitch]

30. Laughed so loud scared the cat and the dog. Thanks. nt

[ourbluenation]

28. "Don't have gay sex if you don't want to, end of story". n/t

[undeterred]

31. I thought Christians were supposed to be full of love not hate

[knitter4democracy]

32. Start with both of those and then add this:

Ask them what the two greatest commandments are. They'll know them (the Schma--"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength" and "Love your neighbor as yourself"). Then, ask them who their neighbors are. Ask them who Jesus's example was (a Samaritan--more hated than the Romans at that time). Ask them how that's any different than how they feel about homosexuals. Follow it up by saying that Jesus would tell the parable of the Good Samaritan today using an HIV+ gay married couple with kids. ;)

[OneBlueSky]

33. "Try it . . . you'll like it" . . . :) n/t

.

[nonconformist]

34. Both. Then ask them if they wear clothes of different fibers

or eat anything from the sea without scales... because according to the Bible, those are sins.

[NMMNG]

35. The Bible has 6 admonishments to homosexuals

and 326 admonishments to heterosexuals. This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, it just means he thinks they need more supervision. :silly: