Duke Lacrosse players describe spat with strippers (money dispute).

[NaturalHigh]

Parties reportedly argued over amount of money, length of performances.

Several Duke lacrosse players say a dispute over money and the length of the performance led to the argument between players and two exotic dancers the night of the alleged rape of a woman at a team party, ESPN reported Wednesday night.

The players, whom ESPN said asked that their names not be used, denied that any rape occurred but said racial slurs and bad language were used by some players and the dancers during their argument, the network reported.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, a lot of people have called on the lacrosse players to "break their silence." Now they have.

[Shilohtd16]

1. I am probably gonna get slammed for this,

but doesn't this whole case seem a little suspect?

[timber84]

2. yes

not by me but by several people here who do not believe in waiting till the whole story is told yes you'll be called very terrible things. But hang in there. it's a testy issue. and you being a newbie doesn't help any either. By the way welcome to DU!

:hi:

[FredScuttle]

50. boo-hoo

so, are you still claiming that the rape victim went "immediately" to the newspaper?

[NaturalHigh]

4. Personally, I think this version of events...

is much more credible than anything I've heard from the strippers. I don't doubt that there was a lot of vulgarity at that party (par for the course when you get a bunch of college students together for drinking and debauchery), but I don't believe a rape was committed.

[FredScuttle]

51. Credible.........how?

I mean, it's laudable that a bunch of drunk assholes admits to being racist and vulgar as well, but what is your standard of credibility?

[SoCalDem]

63. Sounds like NaturalHigh has been to a few frat parties.

The "guys only" parties can go very wrong in a hurry... Mix in spoiled rich guys, money, booze & dancers/strippers... well you get the idea.. Doesn't take an Einstein to see the picture clearly..

[NaturalHigh]

74. I've never been to a frat party...

not that going to a frat party would disqualify me from knowing what's going on. Also, the party in this case wasn't a frat party but a party for a sports team.

[NaturalHigh]

73. If we're talking about credibility...

then someone who stole a cabbie's car after giving him a lap dance probably doesn't rank too high.

[FreakinDJ]

7. Too many discrepancies in their stories.

I heard a former prosecutor comment on this case yesterday. He was being tight lipped saying his mind is not made up but it certainly does not look good for the prosecution

[Yupster]

23. I have no idea what happened, but

I'd sure rather be the defense attorney than the prosecutor at this point.

You only have to raise a reasonable doubt and that seems like an easy burden so far.

[LostinVA]

12. No, it doesn't

Unless you think the SANE's rape kit is full of lies and the players and Defense attorney are unbiased "witnesses."

[NaturalHigh]

18. I'm sure you've been told this about 4000 times by now...

but the kit done at the ER is not proof of anything except that no DNA from any of the players was found in or on the stripper. You are conveniently overlooking that fact.

[FredScuttle]

34. And YOU'VE been told 1000 times

that a SANE's examination is a clinical proof of a sexual assault. LostinVA has been screaming this from the hills that, while SANE's can't say "this girl was raped" since they weren't present during the actual assault, their examination is medical proof of an assault and the SANE's testimony is considered expert at trial (even in NC)

But you'd rather ignore that and pretend that a gang rape didn't occur. Don't you feel proud of yourself?

[BrownOak]

76. Actually, it's not a clinical proof,

it's a clinical opinion formed by a professional with extensive experience in the field. The wording of the report as "consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted" isn't stated in that manner just because the examiner wasn't present at the time of the assault. It's also stated that way because some of the injuries that may be found could be considered consistent with being raped could also be considered consistent with other events.

Not to trivialize the issue with a comparison, but if my daughter came to me with a skinned knee and told me her friend pushed her down on the playground I could look at her knee and find injuries consistent with being pushed on the playground. I could also find injuries consistent with falling off her bike.

At this point we only have the briefest of summaries on the SANE exam from the wording found in the second search warrant in the case. The SANE guidelines state that even without any genital or non-genital injuries a rape could have occurred. By the SANE handbook, just 32% of all rapes have non-genital injuries and anywhere from just 19% to 27% have genital injuries. (The handbook also references another report finding genital trauma in 68% of victims which seems to be a completely different result than the other two studies.)

That's the floor for injuries which may be consistent with rape and it goes up from there. One of the items reported in the handbook is that 94% of rape survivors have specific injuries in one or more of four sites. The same study found that 0% of their control group of non-rape participants had injuries in more than one site.

Clearly the range of "injuries consistent with sexual assault" covers a lot of ground. Until there is more information released on the details of the report it's inaccurate to use it to proclaim with certainty that there was an actual rape. It's no different than taking the defense's photos as a definitive piece of evidence until the details were independently reviewed.

[NaturalHigh]

86. It is not clinical proof of rape.

Injuries consistent with rape is not the same as proof of rape. If I go to the ER with a skull fracture and bruise all over my face, I might have injuries consistent with being beaten by a baseball bat, but that doesn't mean that's what happened. Even if there was a sexual assault (and I don't believe there was), that doesn't mean that the Duke lacrosse players were the perps.

[Mike Daniels]

105. Sexual assault not performed by Duke players.....?

I've wondered about that being a possibility as well.

Why couldn't the women have been assaulted prior to going to Duke and just not told anyone about it. I've read enough things that show that women don't always report sexual assualt immediately after the offense.

Not saying this is even remotely the case in this instance but is there any reason why it couldn't be?

[Yupster]

21. The whole situation seems so sordid to me

What are a bunch of college students doing hiring a stripper? I would have never thought of such a thing while in college. It seems discraceful and disrespectful to me. For one thing your parents will hear about it.

And who are these women who dance arund naked in front of a bunch of drunk college students? Do they think they're doing good for themselves, or the students watching, or for society?

Maybe I'm just too generation gapped to relate, but it seems like this is a bunch of immoral people doing immoral things.

And no, I don't think this stuff should be illegal, though zoning wouldn't hurt. I do think people should choose to do things that elevate rather than degrade though.

I guess I'm just a geezer.

[LostinVA]

24. Do you know the woman is a single mom trying to get through college?

What is she supposed to live on? Fast food or retail earnings, along with their inflexible long hours? Or a quicker way to make more money.

I'm not an exotic dancer, I've never been with, and I never would be one -- but there is nothing wrong with it. It's honest work, and hard work, and I am rather shocked by some of the judgments on DU about what the victim did to pay her bills and feed and clothe her children. Who cares? Who are we to judge anyone???

Your statement: "And who are these women who dance around naked in front of a bunch of drunk college students? Do they think they're doing good for themselves, or the students watching, or for society?" Find out who they are and why they do this, before you judge something. I am NOT being snarky or nasty, I mean this. This is a facet of this case that is also important: a classism not just between the players and the victim, but between the victim and "regular" people judging her.

She is a single mom and a college student. So, do single moms and college students "...think they're doing good for themselves, or for society?"

[Yupster]

32. You don't think there's anything wrong with a woman

stripping buck naked and doing who knows what to herself while a bunch of drunk young men hoot and laugh at her. I think that's bad for women, men and society.

That's okay. People disagree on stuff all the time. I think eating oysters are gross. Other people love them. To each his own, but there have been comments on some of these threads about strippers using foreign objects such as brooms on themselves to increase their tips at such parties.

I think that's demeaning to the woman, and to all women, and I think it teaches horrendous lessons to the young men as to what they should think of women.

You don't have to agree with me of course.

I also don't buy the fact that it's her only option.

Single moms are putting themselves through college all over the country and probably not 1 % of them are laying on the floor, spreading themselves open in front of a bunch of laughing and hooting drunk fratboys.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yupster]

41. You lost me on the

hide the broomstick remark.

You can explain it if you want to.

What I was referring to was posts over the last few days where people have said that strippers will sometimes insert "toys" into themselves as part of their "dance" to generate more tips.

It was part of the discussion about "what if DNA was found on the broomstick."

Someone said that it wouldn't necessarily prove anything because strippers will sometimes use items such as broomsticks to insert into themselves to get the men really hollering and the tips will really start flying then. Another person said he/she had seen worse than broomsticks used in these types of acts.

I can happily say I've never been part of an audience for one of these spectacles, and as far as I know, I don't know any women who have so demeaned themselves.

Of course those are all just my opinions. Others may disagree of course.

[FredScuttle]

45. Here's the explanation

since you're so "ignorant" of adult entertainment, I'll break it down for you:

stripper inserts a dildo into herself or a partner: part of a sex show

stripper gets dragged forcibly into a bathroom, stripped, beaten, strangled and has an object (possibly a broomstick) shoved into her orifices: rape

and, yeah, I disagree. Intently.

[Yupster]

47. I agree with you

What are you disagreeing with?

If a stripper inserts something into herself it's part of her show.

If people do it to her against her will it's rape.

Where's the disagreement?

[FredScuttle]

49. Here's my disagreement

If a woman lies spread-eagle in front of you on the beach in St. Tropez, with "Bolero" playing in the background, and just as you approach her, she says "no"...

You back the hell up and take your stiffy elsewhere.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

And, another thing, you may be surprised that a little more than "1%" earn a living in adult entertainment.

[Yupster]

52. Why would you think that would be difficult

for me to understand?

I'm an old married guy who has never been unfaithful to my wife and never will. If a naked woman on the beach said please, please, please, I'd still take my "stiffy" home.

In your example above if a man refused to heed the woman's "no", then of course he would be guilty of rape. Again, we agree.

I'm really at a loss as to what the heck you're angry about.

I am ignorant of the porn industry as you say. Are you saying that more than 1 % of women work in porn? That would surprise me, and shame me too I guess. Of course I guess there are all kinds of levels of "adult entertainment" too. There's a difference between topless beach videos and spreading yourself open in front of drunk fratboys and inserting all kinds of objects into yourself while they laugh at you and hoot at you.

[FredScuttle]

53. You're surprised by a lot of things

yet you feel knowledgeable enough to criticize this woman's life and how she earns a living.

Like I said.....God blessed me when he gave me a penis instead of a vagina because being judged by the likes of people like you would be too much for me.

[Yupster]

55. Anyway, from reading over your posts,

responding to me I have to say that I make very little sense of them.

From what I can gather, our disagreement is that I believe that when a woman strips naked in front of a group of drunk young men and spreads herself out and inserts various objects into her orifices, while the men hoot at her and laugh at her, then I consider that type of sexually demeaning behavior damaging not just to that woman and those men, but to all women and men.

I also believe it's discraceful behavior for young men in college to hire women to "perform" for them sexually while they get drunk and hoot and laugh.

You believe I should keep my opinions to myself and I shouldn't judge her or the men I guess?

I guess we just disagree.

In other posts you seem to be accusing me of defending rape or some such nonsense. I don't know where that came from, but I think ur basic disagreement is summarized above.

I think it's shameful for men to pay women to demean themselves sexually, and I think it's discraceful that there are women who will do that. I also think it does great harm to our society.

You think it's good honest work and I should shut my mouth.

There's our disagreement as far as I can figure it.

[FredScuttle]

57. I never acused you of defending rape

so you may can the hysterics. I just said that, with your attitude, I'm thankful that I'm not your daughter. Must be nice to sit in judgement of those who never got a break in life.

And what is this "harm" that strippers cause to society? I mean, beyond what * and Halliburton have already done?

[progressivebydesign]

103. In most college towns they recruit only college girls as dancers..

People around here act as though she was a street-walker. She was a dancer, because it makes money. Unlike other college girls at the big schools, she does not have mommy and daddy giving her a credit card, a car, and monthly allowance. HERE is a woman trying to make something of herself, while raising kids, and she's trashed. I would never dance like that for money, it's not my thing, but I understand that the women are recruited to help pay for their college. NO ONE deserves to be raped, regardless of the business.

[converted_democrat]

27. Who are these women?

"And who are these women who dance arund naked in front of a bunch of drunk college students? Do they think they're doing good for themselves, or the students watching, or for society?

Maybe I'm just too generation gapped to relate, but it seems like this is a bunch of immoral people doing immoral things."


I know several strippers, and they are all good women.. (I was a print model, and several of the girls I worked with were strippers..) They don't "enjoy" their jobs, it's something they do to give their children a decent life.. One girl I know has an MBA, and another has a psyche degree, but they can't find jobs in this economy.. Instead of going on welfare, or work for 6 bucks an hour they strip.. One other girl I know stripped for 3 years saved all her cash, and opened her own business.. Not everyone has a silver spoon in their mouth when they were born, and people do what they have to do to be able to lead a decent life.. 6 bucks an hour doesn't go very far in todays world, if you want better, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.. Why be so judgmental? Have you ever done something you weren't particularly proud of?

[Igel]

75. I knew a lot of undergrads and grads when I was in

grad school that would go to strip joints.

Hell, a couple of the guys in the fundie church I attended would spend Friday nights at strip joints (with Friday night and Saturday being the Sabbath for this church ... they engaged less in "observing the Sabbath" than in "Sabbath observance" :evilgrin:

One acquaintance even had his bachelor party at a mud-wrestling place. It would have been stag, as such things are, but he didn't like the idea; he was corralled into by his fiancee.

My personal judgment is that both the woman and the lacrosse players were immoral. But to voice a moral judgment on a college campus--unless it's a "correct" moral judgment--is frowned upon. The protesters in the '60s that told their parents that they couldn't legislate morality are in charge now, and merrily legislate their own morality.

At this point, stripping is legal. Hiring them is legal. Both contractors and contractee were adults. The underage drinking is a problem, as was any other crime (but I find it mildly amusing that drinking in private is illegal for 20-year-old while frequenting a strip club is ok, if there's no alcohol, for an 18-year-old).

[lildreamer316]

108. I've been a stripper for 12 years.

Yep. I am SSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo degraded. So is everyone I've ever encountered.
:sarcasm:

Actually; it's exotic entertainer to you..and everyone else.

BTW; on a good night; I absolutely LOVE my job.

[progressivebydesign]

102. how are you enjoying Duke? A football fan, I can see by your name. n/t

[xchrom]

3. pardon me, excuse me, just passing through on my way to another thread...

don't mind me:hide:

[timber84]

6. yes good idea these threads are trending towards the nasty

these days.

[FredScuttle]

36. and who's the cause of that?

n/t

[Neil Lisst]

5. that's certainly possible, if not probable

The 911 call sounds like someone angry over being dissed and called names, not someone who has an assault victim in the car.

I think this case has many problems. This latest info helps players because it helps explain the arguing and the 911 call.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

8. Every time I read "Duke Lacrosse" it sounds like a pr0n star name

:argh:

[TorchTheWitch]

62. Oh shit!

Ahh, why did ya have to say that? hahahaha! Now I'm going to be thinking that, too!

God, it does sound like a porn star name, huh?

"Hey Bady, I'm Duke Lacrosse and I'm packing spectacular 8 inch 'cut' 'white' meat, clean in the north and trimmed in the south... all for you"

:rofl:

[BrownOak]

81. Now that's funny n/t

[Thtwudbeme]

9. Well that certainly clears up any misunderstandings about these

precicous darling little innocent Duke boys. Thanks for posting it.

I am sure that these precious angels didn't do anything wrong, or anything they wouldn't tell their sweet mama's about.

[elehhhhna]

11. especially not the one who was convicted of gay bashing...

bet he's a real peach

[Egalitariat]

13. He hasn't been tried yet***

nm

[NaturalHigh]

19. They acted like shitheads at a party.

It's very common, particularly in adolescent and college-age men (and women too, for that matter). That doesn't mean they did anything illegal, though. We don't throw people in jail just for being shitheads. If they're shitheads who committed a crime, then we start to consider jail.

[FredScuttle]

38. Common?

Come again?

This asshole Finnerty attacked a random stranger in the street because he thought he was gay. That's not common...that's sociopathic.

They will be tried and have an opportunity to defend themselves. But, please don't try to tell me that they're "average" boys...these assholes are vicious and psychotic. I'm a man and I share no fucking values with these pieces of shit.

[BrownOak]

83. Technically

That asshole Finnerty attacked a random stranger and called him gay. You cannot state what he thought of the victim's sexuality. That doesn't change the rest of what you said though and I don't disagree with any of it as it relates to what we know.

[marions ghost]

10. we've heard this

seems like the only significance of this 'breaking silence' is an admission of using racial slurs. Rita Cosby will have an 'in depth' report on it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. It Will Be Very Interesting To See How This All Plays Out In The End.

There are strong reasons to have opinions on either side of this case, and I'll be damned if I know in the end whether the rape will have turned out to be real or a vindictive charge based on lies.

Once all the evidence is presented, the picture will become much clearer, I'm sure. But for now, this is a very strange story and is definitely up in the air as far as whether it has legitimacy or has no legitimacy.

[timber84]

16. check out the thread started in GD about the story that she has made

these accusations before

[FredScuttle]

40. and what are you implying?

n/t

[Nikia]

15. Why weren't they more cooperative earlier?

If they really believed that no rape occurred. Wouldn't it have saved them a lot of problems for them to be upfront about their version of events if they really believed that nothing illegal (except perhaps for underage drinking) occurred? We don't know what happened for sure, but the fact that they weren't telling police what happened right away makes me suspect that some of them at least suspected that something might have happened.

[NaturalHigh]

17. They were all considered suspects by the DA.

Keeping their mouths shut until he targeted specific players was the smart thing to do.

[FredScuttle]

42. Yes because all innocent people accused of rape

decide that the best thing to do is to clam up and stonewall an investigation.

I'm not saying that the entire team is guilty of rape. But, all those players who attended the party and were present while a gang rape was being committed are enablers at best and accessories at worst. Real men take action when a wrong is done....they don't spin it like our present Administration is apt to do.

[TorchTheWitch]

65. They all LEFT

That looks really suspicious to me. If nothing happened at the party for them to worry about, why was the house empty when the cops got there? And if there was someone there, why didn't they answer the door to the cops and pretend they weren't there?

You have a party with 40 or more people that's so interesting that people take pictures not only of the strippers doing their job but arriving and leaving and being put into a car, yet right after the stripper leaves the place is deserted and no one is answering the door to the cops? If everyone is so innocent why was there no one sitting around sharing the various photos of the strippers, drinking beer and congratulating themselves on such a swell party and speculating about what a fucked up freak the stripper was? No, instead they get rid of the booze (and maybe other things) and flee.

[BrownOak]

78. Pretty Simple Explanation

The guys who live in that house and the rest of the team had multiple citations for alcohol violations and noise violations. The party that had been contained in the house just spilled out into the street. And most of all, after making her false 911 call, the second dancer yelled out to the guys as she was leaving, "I called the cops, you dumbasses."

Sounds like a good time to get out of there.

[TorchTheWitch]

104. Ah yes, all those violations

Violations that never got them into any trouble before. Violations they got because it didn't occur to them it would be a good idea to flee. Violations that even though they got previous violations they didn't see a need to not get another by fleeing. Violations that just pile up because they didn't give a shit about all these violations, and just let themselves continue getting them. So, why on this particular night every single person suddenly got scared about yet another violation when they never gave a shit before?

They knew Duke condoned their drunken noisy behavior... Duke acquired these off campus houses for that reason. They knew Duke swept their drunken noisy behavior under the rug. Duke even condoned one of the players' violent attack on an innocent stranger in DC, and there's no way they never knew about that one, and there's no doubt in my mind that the other players knew about it and knew Duke didn't so much as kick the guy off the team. What the hell do they care about yet another alcohol and noise violation? They certainly never cared before and they knew that Duke didn't care either.

[BrownOak]

110. Never in trouble before?

Uh, 15 of them have those citations. Several of them have deferred prosecution deals that evaporate if they get arrested again - including one of the owners of the house.

You make the assumption that the violations pile up because they don't give a shit, but how do you know that? You can't have it both ways. If these guys have a don't give a shit attitude then you have to assume that those 15 violations reflects the great majority of the times they've acted boorishly. My guess is that's not the case and that those 15 violations reflect the times they've been caught. Maybe it's just me, but if I've just been told "I just called the cops you dumbasses" and my choices are to stick around and get hassled by the cops resulting in a citation that would in lead to a court appearance or to say "screw this" and get the hell out of there, I'm going with option B every time.

BTW - not to pick nits here, but Duke acquired the off campus houses from the current landlords this year and it was done to resell the houses after the current leases expired. One of the stipulations in the new deed was that the new owner could not lease the dwelling. It was done not to condone the party behavior, but to get rid of it. (At least in that neighborhood. The idea that you can eliminate college students having parties is absurd. All Duke has done is moved the noise from one neighborhood to another.)

[TorchTheWitch]

20. The dog ate my homework

This should hardly surprise anyone.

So basically what they're saying is that they used a false name to hire the strippers, lied about how many people were going to be at the party, used false names and their team numbers at the party, the stripper was so drunk she passed out on the stairs but was still able to argue about money which must have been so important to her that she left without her purse, her phone, her keys and her money wearing only one shoe and her costume with no ride home.

Oh yeah, and although she brought her make-up bag with her, she arrived at the party bruised and bleeding and did her nails in the bathroom while bruised and bleeding. And even though she arrived at the party bruised and bleeding, she became bruised and bloody in falling down the steps on the way out after the party.

Gotcha.

[LostinVA]

25. Yup, that about covers it all...

[gkhouston]

30. maybe they argued over money

because they wanted a discount since one of the dancers they hired arrived bruised and bleeding. :sarcasm:

[NaturalHigh]

31. Maybe they argued about money...

and one of the strippers didn't get what she wanted and got pissed and fabricated a story about being raped by three lacrosse players.

[FredScuttle]

43. So, you're throwing out the "she was drunk" explanation?

it must be so hard to keep your smears in order

[djg21]

66. Just a few simple questions?

What is an "escort service"? How is an "escort" different from a "stripper" or an "exotic dancer"? Could it be a euphemism for something else altogether?

[NaturalHigh]

72. Arguing about money WHILE drunk...

not a smear, just a likely possibility.

[TorchTheWitch]

64. What cracks me up is

Defense counsel claims to have photos of BOTH the bruised and bloody scenereos... a photo of her arriving at the party already bruised and bloody which was why she was bruised and bloody, AND a photo of her bruised and bloody after falling down the steps outside the house after the party which was why she was bruised and bloody.

mmmmmmkay.

This stripper can't seem to do anything besides mysteriously bruise and bloody herself all night.

[BrownOak]

80. Clarification

The claim is that she arrived with bruises and open wounds, not that she was bloody nor that all of her wounds were present upon arrival.

[TorchTheWitch]

106. Ah, no

The defense is claiming that no one at the party is responsible for her bruised and bloody condition. These are statements made by the defense and have appeared in print and most probably on tv although I can't claim that because I don't watch tv. The defense claimed that the reason she was bruised and bloody is because she arrived at the party in that condition and they claim to have a photo of this to prove it. Their reason for claiming this is to explain why she was bruised and bloody. They then claimed that she became bruised and bloody by falling down the steps outside the house after the party and they claim they have a photo of this to prove it. Their reason for claiming this is to explain why she was bruised and bloody.

According to the defense, she miraculously bruises and bloodies herself directly before the party AND directly after, and they supposedly have photos to "prove" it.

They also specified "blood" not "open wounds". And I notice that with all the reams of DU posters making the same claim about blood who agree with your position, I haven't seen a damn thing from you to "correct" them on their supposed mistake about there being no blood but "open wounds". "Open wounds" my foot.

[BrownOak]

111. Well if reams are saying it then it must be true...

Here's a story from CBS News & The AP which states

At midnight (12:00:12 a.m.), there is the first picture of the alleged victim. She is laying down on the floor, partly clothed, with the second dancer standing over her. Regan reports that she could see what appeared to be sores, or small open wounds on both of her knees, as well as bruises, and a blister on her right foot.

It also goes on to say:

In a photo taken at 12:37:58, the alleged victim is lying down. It looks like she fell, Regan reports. According to Regan, there appear to be new bruises on her backside and scratches on her legs.


This one is from ABC and it states:

12 a.m.: This is the first picture of the strippers. Students are watching the show, but not grabbing or attempting to touch the women. Bruises are clearly visible on the legs and thighs of the alleged victim.

and also

12:37:58 a.m.: A series of photos are taken, all showing the woman lying on her left side on the back porch, seemingly passed out or asleep. She had visible cuts on her legs and buttocks that did not appear in the previous photos.

The cuts may be from falling. The cuts on her buttocks line up with the edge of a screen door she may have hit on the way down.


And here is the report of the attorney who first discussed the pictures and what they would show. It reads:

Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said.

"This young lady was substantially impaired. She had fallen several times during the course of the evening," Thomas said.

Nowhere in any of that does it describe her as bloody. What the defense is claiming is that she arrived with bruises and scrapes. Then they are offering up the photos which show, according to those who have viewed them, bruises and open wounds when she arrives and cuts that occurred somehow during the course of the evening.

If you want to pick apart what the defense is claiming that's fine. I'm just saying that doing so based on what reams of people are saying isn't necessarily relevant if those reams of people aren't saying the same things the defense claims.

[NaturalHigh]

29. In my experience...

lots of drunk people argue about money (and assorted other things). Drunk people are also known to forget purses, phones, keys, money, etc. It is probably also not uncommon for drunk people to walk around wearing only one shoe or fall down stairs.

As for the guys using false names to hire strippers, does this really surprise anyone? I personally don't want strippers to come to my house, but I don't find it particularly shocking that anyone who does uses a false name. I would also imagine the strippers were using false names.

[Neil Lisst]

33. Didn't you see Pretty Woman?

They're all fascinating sweethearts like Julia Roberts.

This WAS an ESCORT service, wasn't it?

[FredScuttle]

44. In other words, THEY FUCKING LIED

isn't that the standard you're holding a rape victim to? Why aren't you screaming to the hills about this admission?

[TorchTheWitch]

61. Yep, they lied

They lied, they admitted they lied, and somehow the stripper is the only one accused of lying.

mmmmkay.

[TorchTheWitch]

60. False names

Agencies are VERY particular about clients using a false identity since they know damn well that many of their workers prostitute themselves and they're terrified of the feds. They vet clients as much as they can. My guess is that whoever booked the strippers used a parent's creditcard or the creditcard of a parent of one of the other players. Agencies and clubs have to be VERY careful about chargebacks since it's an industry where it is common that a customer will charge the service and then call the creditcard company the next day claiming the card was stolen so they don't have to pay for the service they got.

There is only ONE reason that a customer who isn't the feds would use a false identity to book a stripper... they have no intension of paying for the service.

There is also only ONE reason that the players would use false identities at the party... they don't want to be identified by anything more than their appearance after the party is over.

Strippers use false names for their own security... you know this is a risky business, and there are a lot of freaks out there. Whenever you do a job where you need a large trained body guard to physically protect you, you would be wise not risk being identified.

We also use false names to mentally separate our real selves from the stripper "role" we play... much easier on the psych.

But there is also a need to be identified by a name that sounds pleasing and is unusual enough that you won't be confused with anyone else... would your rather be with stripper Belinda or stripper Bertha? Would you rather be with stripper Ava or stripper Agatha? Unpleasing sounding names are a buzzkill and so is being confused with someone else.

You're grasping at straws... there are obvious and compelling reasons for strippers or customers to disguise their identity. It's also pretty obvious as to which group is overwhelmed with psycho freaks who may be potentially dangerous... strippers need physical security and customers try to get away with not paying for a service rendered or worse.

[NaturalHigh]

98. Then you're saying it's okay for strippers to use false names...

but it's somehow sinister if the guys who hire them use false names. Now I get it.

[TorchTheWitch]

109. A reading comprehension problem?

Strippers use false names to protect their physical safety. Please explain to me why 40+ athletes need to protect their physical safety from a stripper.

Strippers also use false names because their own names may not suit the fantasy character they portray and get paid for. Please explain to me why 40+ athletes need to use false names to portray a fantasy character they don't get paid for.

Strippers also use false names because repeatedly and often portraying a fantasy character they get paid to play can be emotionally/mentally difficult due to separating the fantasy character from their real self. Please explain to me why 40+ athletes need to use false names to spare them the emotional/mental difficulty of separating their real self from a fantasy character they don't get paid to play and aren't portraying repeatedly and often thereby having no need to worry about separating their real self from a fantasy character.

As I said, there is only ONE reason someone would use a false name to an AGENCY when booking a stripper... they don't intend to pay her. In this case, there may have been the additional reason that the person booking the stripper didn't want his identity associated with a violent crime regarding the stripper he booked.

Now, if it makes you feel better, kindly refer to the search warrant affidavit regarding the search of one of the arrested player's dorm room in which the police officer stated that interviews of the players showed that the reason the false names were used at the party was to hide their identities to create an atmosphere of confusion should anything happen at the party that in the future would cause questionings.
http://www.wral.com/slideshow/news/8884831/detail.html?qs=;s=6;w=800

[NaturalHigh]

112. No, I comprehend perfectly.

It's fine for strippers to hide their identities, but it's suspicious behavior for anyone else. Never mind that many customers of strippers, hookers, escorts, etc., probably don't care to give the service providers their real names. In this case, it's proof that the lacrosse players had sinister plans in mind. Now I get it. Thank you for explaining that to me.

I never said that the players needed to protect their physical safety. As for the fantasy part, yes, I can see how a stripper might consider a name like Tyra to be more appealing than one like Esmerelda. How does any of that imply sinister motives to the guys who used false names? Is there somehow a shred of physical evidence against them because they used false names? Does it change the DNA tests, which failed to match any genetic material to the players?

False names or not, the stripper's story doesn't hold water.

[Marie26]

70. One other thing

After escaping the players who threatened to assault her with a broom, she ran into the bathroom and proceeded to leisurely do her nails. Oh, and there's proof of this, because in that last picture of her injured & sprawled on the back stoop, you can see some "reddish" marks on the stoop. And those red marks must be wet fingerpolish, because that couldn't be her blood, or anything. Yes, this is actually something the defense has claimed & it made me so mad I couldn't see straight. Pretty good summary.

[BrownOak]

82. This should be easy if it comes to trial

When I read the part about the nail polish it would seem rather easy to verify if those marks on the stoop are nail polish and if so, do they match what was on the AV's nails?

[BrownOak]

79. Bruised and Bleeding

Minor point - I believe that the claim was that she was bruised and had open wounds, but was not bleeding. The claim was that the open cuts and any fresh bruises came from the fall down the stairs.

As for the false names when they hired the dancers and at the party - what does that really mean or matter? I mean, if they were really trying to hide their identity, wouldn't they have the party somewhere other than in their own house? You can use all the false names you want, but it doesn't really help you that much if you're planning on committing a crime and you're going to do that in your own house.

That said, the player's remarks without anything to support them are merely public damage control.

[Sparkle]

22. "Thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt!"

The dancers should have rammed a cotton shirt up their asses.

You're welcome!

[FredScuttle]

46. A-FUCKING-MEN

Thank you Sparkle for pointing out what "wonderful" and "chaste" boys these are.

[jberryhill]

107. "The dancers should have rammed a cotton shirt up their asses."

So, you condone sexual violence when the victim deserves it, yes?

Like the guys who recently killed a 16 year old in Texas for allegedly making an advance on a 12 year old, underage, girl?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. people lie to save their skins....

what do we want people who may have witnessed a rape say? "yes, i saw it..and no, i did nothing about it"?


that doesnt mean a rape didnt occur...it just means someones lying..i just dont see why someone would lie about being raped...there is no monetary awards...now the whole world knows she is a sex-worker...what would her advantage be here?

[NaturalHigh]

28. The advantage would be...

that she could file a civil suit against the players for a monetary reward. This will be much easier if there is a criminal conviction.

[FredScuttle]

48. And the likes of you

ensure that rape victims will never get satisfaction in civil court, let alone criminal court. Imagining how a rape victim can "profit"....you should be ashamed of yourself, but I know that shame is one glaring quality lacking in these threads nowadays.

[NaturalHigh]

85. Anyone who falsely accuses someone of rape...

is who should be ashamed. You're absolutely right, though, that there is an appalling lack of shame in these threads. It's shameful that someone can be considered guilty of rape when there is no evidence against them.

[mondo joe]

69. In addition, revenge can be a great motivator. -eom-

[IndyJones]

39. Since I don't know what happened because I wasn't there, I'm going

to have to trust our judicial system to work. I can't say one way or the other. I don't know why anyone can have such strong determination one way or the other at this point unless they were there or unless they have seen all of the evidence that hasn't been made public at this point.

Gotta love the judge and jury here on this case.:sarcasm:

[Catrina]

54. Maybe they have a vested interest in it. Could be they make money in

the 'adult entertainment' business and while they know that most, the majority of women, no matter how poor, would never demean themselves for a bunch of spoiled brat, rich, arrogant college students, they don't mind, in fact they encourage young women to do so. Makes me wonder how much respect they have for women.

Anyone who really cared about that woman would have discouraged her from this lifestyle. Money, believe it or not, isn't everything and children are far better off in a financially poor home, than in the home of parents who are drinking and drugging and getting home at all hours of the night.

As for the 'boys' well, all I can say is any woman with a brain, would stay away from men who have a need to demean women in order to get an erection. I wouldn't envy their future wives.

[FredScuttle]

56. This "lifestyle"?

You do know, don't you, that she's a college student? And that she was paying her way through college through adult entertainment? You know, because she didn't have a rich mommy and daddy in New Jersey to buy her a new car....nor did she have a legacy option at Yale. But damn her for being born out of opportunity! :sarcasm:

And where do you get off accusing this woman of "drinking" and "drugging" Are you aware that she was possibly drugged at the party?

[Catrina]

58. You really don't like women very much, do you, unless they're willing

to demean themselves for men.

What does going to college have to do with anything? There are literally thousands of women who were 'born out of opportunity' paying their way through college, without lowering themselves for the kind of characters YOU YOURSELF seem to despise, yet encourage women to 'please' for money.

Whenever I meet men in real life who make a case for women to follow this kind of 'lifestyle' they are usually men who dislike women, who think that's what women are meant to do. But they couch it in 'she's doing it for a good cause' in an attempt to hide the real reasons why they are proponents of women making a living this way ~

As far as this case, you asked me, in a very rude manner btw (maybe because I'm a woman?) 'where do you get off' ...... are you aware that she was possibly drugged?' I am aware of nothing regarding this case since I have no interest in sordid stories like this, other than what I read here.

If she was drugged at the party however, you only confirm my point. It is no 'lifestyle ' for a woman. For all the obvious (to anyone who cares about women) reasons, such as 'they might get drugged, raped, beaten etc. and no one who has their best interests at heart would take even the tiniest chance of that happening, if they could prevent it.

It is a sordid tale and no doubt while Bush contemplates wiping out maybe a million people this summer, some will wallow in all the media generated sordid details of this sad story. Enjoy it, I will be engaged in other, more healthy activities this summer ~ no reason why precious media coverage should be given to the bad decisions made by a bunch of people, all old enough to know better.

[FredScuttle]

59. So the victim is to blame because men can't control themselves?

Thank you for the gross assumptions about me, I appreciate that. While I'm not a picket-carrying proponent of stripping, I am a strong advocate of not judging other people by what they do for a living.

I'm rude because I detest people making judgements on a rape victim that parrot the worst stereotypes this incident engenders.

And there's a hell of difference between enjoying a sex show and dragging the entertainment into the bathroom for a gang-rape, then hurling racial insults at her as she's escaping.

[Catrina]

77. We are all aware now that you were an eyewitness to both this

event and the other one involving an African American woman who claimed to have been a victim of inappropriate touching by a man.

Both cases are settled by your excellent eyewitness testimony. One is telling the truth, the other is a liar! :rofl:

This is what I have actually witnessed (since I did NOT witness either event). Several of those who so virulently defend and believe this woman are the same people who so hatefully attacked Cynthia McKinney when she claimed to have been the victim of inappropriate touching.

Very, very interesting and very revealing ~

Btw, you're not a very good advocate for this woman. In her position, I would hope to have better advocates if I were telling the truth.

Oh, and btw, show me a rape victim and I will go to bat for her. So far, all I see so far are allegations.

That was your cue to say: So, you're defending the indefensible, the rapists! :rofl:

I look forward to you then denying, as you did above, that you ever accused anyone of defending rapists. :rofl:

[FredScuttle]

88. You have me confused with someone else

I DEFENDED Cynthia Mckinney. I don't know who the hell you're referring to, but it certainly wasn't me.

You've been shown a rape victim...I'm not concerned about your evaluation of me as her "advocate" because it's a waste of my time to convince you that she is a victim.

[Catrina]

89. If I confused you with someone else, then I apologize. Being wrongfully

accused of anything, no matter how minor, is never a good thing and not something I would want to do.

I am glad to hear you gave Ms McKinney the benefit of the doubt (in my brief search of just a few of the McKinney topics so far, I did not find any posts from you) Since I don't have time to search all of them, I will take your word for it.

And no, I have not seen a rape victim. I have seen allegations of rape and that's a huge difference.

Just FYI, I have a friend who was asked by a neighbor to be a witness for her in a rape allegation she had made against a prominent member of their community. He had broken off a relationship with her and she 'wanted to show him' she said. That man might be in jail today had the potential 'witnesses' not reported the attempts of the 'victim' to get them to be false witnesses against him.

That's why we have a legal process in this country.

Anyway, this topic is pretty boring ~ I took the trouble to respond to make sure that I apologized for mis-identifying you. There are far more important issues that need the media's attention, like the deaths of troops, Iraqi citizens, torture of innocent men, women and children by our government. Despite the contention of the other dancer that she is 'part of the biggest story in this country today', she isn't.

Enjoy the rest of the latest media distraction ~ :hi:

[FredScuttle]

90. You WILL take my word for it

because what you printed was an outright lie.


Get your facts straight and your evidence in hand before you accuse me of anything. I neither want nor need your apology...I don't suffer fools.

[Spike from MN]

99. Whoa! Wait a minute here. Fred has been adamant in

sticking up for the victim here all along. He is definitely not a "woman-hater" and the women at DU as well as the women in his life are lucky to have someone like him around.

If the woman was drugged at the party, why would she be the one to blame rather than the person that drugged her? That's the equivalent of saying that if she was raped, she's at fault and find that to be extremely offensive. Is there any other crime where the victim rather than the perpatrator is to blame? Is a bank at fault because a robber took money from them? No. Only in the crime of rape is the victim painted as the one that is guilty.

As for lifestyle choices, unfortunately anyone anywhere at anytime can become a victim of rape or sexual assault. No one "chooses" to be a victim. A person can take all the precautions in the world and still end up becoming a victim. This ihas been true since the beginning of time and will continue to be true until the end of tiem unless something is done about it. The first step in ending this cycle will come when we stop blaming the victims and start blaming the perpetrators. Until that happens, the vicious cycle will continue.

[mondo joe]

68. There's that religious right word: "lifestyle".

How about instead of imposing your morality we just advocate everyone making their own choices?

[Yupster]

71. I agree with you Catrina

It's a sad situation all around.

Women who are willing to demean themselves for money, and men who are willing to pay to see women do it.

Not a lot to be proud of for any of these people.

[1932]

67. That's why the police seized the money as evidence. It corroborates

the dancers' story. If the players had the money on them and the dancers didn't, then it corroborates the idea that the players beat them up because they didn't want to pay.

But, I bet, the defense lawyers will say that, yes, they didn't get paid, so they're making the story up about the assaul as revenge.

[BrownOak]

84. Not really

That money could be there because the dancer forgot to take it with her because she was so inebriated from alcohol or drugs (either ingested voluntarily or unknowingly).

[1932]

100. Yes, really.

If she was HIRED (which everyone agrees) and she didn't have any money on her, and the guy who was going to pay her has $300 on him, that's going to corroborate someone's story.

[BrownOak]

101. Pretty Weak Corroboration

Where to start????

Who is to say that the money that was at the player's house was the money the AV claims to have been missing?
How unusual is it for someone to have $160 in twenty dollar bills sitting around the house?
How do you know that the AV didn't just forget those items due to her state of inebriation?
How does the fact that those bills are in the house get you to the conclusions that the AV was beaten up?

There are way too many possible explanations for those bills being in the house for it to corroborate an allegation of rape.

[Beelzebud]

87. I just can't seem to care about this media hyped case...

No matter how hard I try I just can't find a shred of relevance to my life in this media hype.

[FredScuttle]

91. Rape victims certainly seem to care

as does any one whose skin crawls when rape victims are smeared.

[NaturalHigh]

92. Oh please...

When has anyone here "smeared" a rape victim? A good percentage of people don't believe that this woman is a rape victim. There's a big difference.

[Lars39]

93. Yea, but they wouldn't believe Mary Poppins lost her virginity

even if they observed it first-hand.

[NaturalHigh]

96. Well, it's not something I would really want to see...

but I'd believe it if I saw it. I'd also believe the stripper in the Duke case was raped if I had seen any evidence to that effect, but I haven't.

[Neil Lisst]

94. it's called a "smear" if you believe her story has problems

or, if you believe any of what her father says, or if you believe photos, taxi records, ATM records, and DNA, you're smearing her.

The unfortunate reality is this: Those here who blindly support the accuser include some whose only arguing technique is to insult, and everyone who disagrees with them is a rapist. Silly, isn't it?

[NaturalHigh]

95. You are "defending the indefensible!"

Don't you know that by not believing the stripper's story, you are encouraging men to go out there and rape? Anytime a woman accuses someone of rape, the police should go right out there and throw somebody's ass in jail! No woman ever, and I mean EVER, makes a false accusation of rape. What are you, a misogynist tool of the patriarchy?

Oh, by the way...:sarcasm:

[Neil Lisst]

97. and strippers never lie, or scheme, or steal, or try to blackmail, or

get so wasted they can't remember where they are.

It's practically like being a nun.

Those who want to pretend her profession is not a factor are mistaken. Women will pour out the plaintiff on this case faster than men.