Think you pay too much at the pump? Check the prices in Europe

[ps1074]

What would the average american do if prices reach $5 or $6 per gallon?

I just found this website with curent prices in 6 european countries listed.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html

Weekly Retail Premium Gasoline Prices (Including Taxes) - 4/10/2006

Belgium - 6.10
France - 5.80
Germany - 5.96
Italy - 5.91
Netherlands - 6.73
U.K. - 6.13
U.S. - 2.88

[Nickster]

1. Oh yeah! Yet another post telling me I should be ecstatic about paying 3

bucks a gallon. Get over it all ready! Europeans have much much much better public transportation and universal healthcare. Think you could spare a few dollars a gallon if you got those public benefits?

[maxsolomon]

4. not ecstatic

just not squealing so loud.

tom friedman said in this mornings' NYT that fed tax should put the cost per gallon at $4, and keep it there.

use the $1/gallon tax to fund public transportation, rebuild the national railroads, research alternate fuels/energy sources, etc. murkins would change their driving habits real quick.

[warrens]

I agree with Friedman

And not just because I use public transportation. The real key is to cut demand enough that heating oil won't end up at $4 a gallon. That would be disastrous for many Americans.

[kenny blankenship]

40. Unfortunately for that idea, US driving habits are conditioned on US land

distribution and property tax balkanization. Ok, the US has lots more land in the first place, so there has been a natural tendency to spread out compared with Europe; but also we have a long, longstanding national habit of political decentralization. And idealism is less the cause than selfish spite. Whereas in the UK there is a national board which decides whether newly developed communities will be annexed and pay property taxes into the municipality they are accreted to, in the United States the tradition is to develop the land just outside the city limits in a hodge-podge fashion, or develop the land just outside the county in which the city is located, then declare it a separate local entity and refuse to pay taxes into the larger municipality, maintaining a lower property tax rate than the city, thus sucking new home buyers out into the hinterlands, starving the city for tax revenue while neverhtheless placing demands on it to support the burgeoning growth of the "metro area". It's a kind of economic segregation and secession we've practiced for generations, but the advent of near universal car ownership in the US caused it to accelerate like throwing gas on a fire. So in the past half century we've seen suburban development around cities expanding away from town like the successively growing and decaying rings of a coral atoll. The ring of active development moves out away from the center, leaving it gasping, and the early inner rings which were never built to be integrated use urban centers but temporary bedroom communities, often collapse into decay as well over time, cutting the center off from the periphery--all in the space of a couple of decades.

Where Americans live in all this new development that has been predicated on the automobile, there is scant allowance for the possibility that one might travel in any other way. American suburban dwellers have declared war on sidewalks for instance. But even more basic obstacles discourage the pedestrian lifestyle in suburbia, where most of us now live. Walking on an errand from one's home, which is tucked away in a leafy cul-de-sac, or winding shaded lane, onto the arterial boulevard that lies between home and the closest supermarket, one steps from cozy wooded neighborhood onto a desertified plain of asphalt, concrete curbs and bare earth, thundering with metal beasts charging up one side and down the other with homicidal abandon. If there is a sidewalk at all, it probably will not stretch all the way to one's destination, but stops far short obliging one to walk in garbage and dust or mud. Above there is no cover from the wind and sun and rain. Neither is there a shield or much sense of separation from the roaring death blazing to and fro to one's left on the lined asphalt. One is exposed to the elements without the dignity of being in nature, weak and helpless against the slightest mischance of cars colliding or leaving the roadway, freakish and alone in choosing or being compelled to travel in such a dangerous and ill-provided for manner. The bleakest urban film noir setting has nothing on this barenness and desolation. From curbside the chaotic disorder and violence of the boulevard is impossible to ignore, it's not just a contrast with the pleasant residential street where home is: it's the annihilating refutation of all the stage managed coziness found there. No one who could avoid this trek just to buy groceries would choose to undertake it; if they have a working car they will drive it, whatever the cost of gasoline may be.

If you want to change how much Americans drive, you must concurrently change a great deal more about how they live: how they buy and develop real estate, how they plan cities (hah! as if they planned them at all) how they raise taxes in a way that encourages or discourages municipal balkanization, and how they provide for alternative means of transportation, including the most basic question, should my need for groceries/dry goods/sundries/notions this day require the use of an internal combustion engine at all? This isn't just a matter of pegging the price of gas at $4/gallon by taxes, which would be just fine for the rich and definitely sustainable for upper middle class, but hell on the rest of America, but an issue whose solution demands America at last address its nature as an antisocial society, or a political order designed to frustrate the very concept of the social.

[kay1864]

29. Presidential Candidate John Anderson said the same thing in 1980

Increase gas tax by 50 cents/gallon. Public had a fit over it.

[Reciprocity]

32. I get what you are trying to say but....

Do you think that folks like me in rural areas will benefit from $4.00 a gallon gas? What public transportation do you think is going to run out here in the sticks? We need more alternative fuel sources. Which we want get as long as the petroleum industries own our government.

[maxsolomon]

47. do you work out in the sticks? are you a farmer/rancher?

if so, you have my sympathy. my advice: get a diesel.

but my brother-in-law lives 75 minutes from his job. on a good traffic day. he's a teacher & wants to have a play farm.

i know it will hurt him to pay $4/gallon, but it is/was a choice, and my sympathy is limited.

i will have to pay that much for home heating oil. i've been paying over $3 for that this whole winter, as it is diesel fuel. as a result, i'm going to insulate my attic this summer.

the point is that $1/gallon tax will fund a lot of different approaches to adressing this problem, as well as encouraging "wise use".
as it stands now, there is little public benefit gleaned from our massive oil consumption. the roads in my city (seattle) are a POS.

and i would say, yes, there should be public transportation in the sticks. there used to be, it was called the railroad.

[Reciprocity]

48. The railroad is going to take me to the post office?

I just love how big city folks have all the answers. As long as big business owns our government nothing will happen.

[maxsolomon]

50. yes the railroad will take you to the post office

:eyes:

you know, people lived for a million years before cars & its not my job to solve every problem in america. gas prices are going up, and they're going to stay up. you must adapt.

what do you want, different gas prices for city mice & country mice?

[ps1074]

6. where in my post did I say that?

:shrug:

[Nickster]

8. So you weren't implying that people should stop whining about the price of

gas because Europeans have it so much worse? C'mon!

[ps1074]

12. Of course I didn't

I was asking what would happen if the price reach $5 per gallon?

Mass suicide? Voting 99% of the congress out?

[Nickster]

13. "think you pay too much at the pump?" n/t

[ps1074]

15. Oh, come on...

Instead see the first line in my post. The title is to grab your attention :hi:

[Jane Austin]

20. Not only do they have more public transportation, but most of

those countries are small.

Germany and France aren't tiny, but they aren't nearly as big as the US.

Doesn't take as much gas to cover the territory.

[Protagoras]

30. Lifestyle is structured a lot different there

both in terms of community, markets, and work commute. I find it to be a better system overall, less hour+ long commutes etc, more sense of community, etc. Also see a radically different ratio of Car size to road mile...MPG actually counted there. It'll be a hell of an adjustment for us to transform our own society to a similar model.

[SOS]

39. US car trips are very short

"National transportation surveys indicate that more than half the auto trips in the United States are less than two miles long. A 1996 Air Resources Board study of Southern Californians' driving habits found that drivers took an average of seven trips a day. The average trip length was 7.6 miles, and more than 31% of the trips were one mile or less. That means about two of those seven trips were within a very easy and short bicycle ride, which would save gasoline and provide exercise."

http://www.fypower.org/save_gasoline/action/tip_details.html?tar=3&hdr=6

Commercial truckers could be given a break on diesel, as long as they have commercial plates. Otherwise I find myself (oddly) in agreement with Thomas Friedman - $4 a gallon and keep it there.
Raise the current 18 cent federal tax to $1.18. That would provide an additional $400 million a day or $146 billion a year. That money could be used to help mass transit and provide medical care for the thousands of people poisoned by auto exhaust.

"Despite two decades of cleaning up carcinogenic fumes from cars and factories, Californians are breathing some of the most toxic air in the nation, with residents of Los Angeles and Orange counties exposed to a cancer risk about twice the national average."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cancer22mar22,0,7938985.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[Jane Austin]

49. Oh, I was thinking of my own trips. 30 miles each way into town, and I

almost never take a one-errand trip. There are many days where I only drive to and from work, and when I visit my elderly mother with advanced Alzheimers four miles from work, I do my grocery shopping on the way to or from.

Thank God I have a high -mpg car.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. OK now factor in the costs of oil wars via the federal taxes we pay

and the subsidies to oil companies via federal taxes we pay...that evens out the field a bit...then factor in how europeans use more fuel efficient cars on the whole and are more dependent on public transportation because it actually exists throughout making the average european far less dependent on the price of gas than we are...then all things will be weighed equally

[etherealtruth]

21. Yep ...

...just add the taxes in the gas prices (in Europe) that actually help pay for public transit ...

Its actually like they recieve an increased quality of life for the $$$$ ... our "beloved" corporations make record profits

[charlie]

37. Ayup

Megadittos to all that. I dearly miss Japan and its sky-high gasoline prices. Driving may be expensive, but so's that panicky scrambling you have to do when your old beater breaks down. Trains and busses have to-the-minute dependency, so you can count on them for work, business, groceries, cross-country vacations, whatever. It's a huge load off to have reliable options so you're never stranded (and the ubiquitous accomodations for pedestrian and bicycle traffic are nice too).

I'm chuffed to see you out and about again. I hope you're healing up nicely :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. I'm working on it

the cycle of pain and depression is slowly losing its grip...thanks, charlie

[charlie]

42. I'm pulling for you, Teena

It's really great to see you again. There's a big ol' nsma-sized hole in this place when you're not around.

[Midlodemocrat]

44. Exactly. The last time I was in Europe and rented a car

it was so tiny, it looked like a toy. Did the job nicely however. The trucks driven in France are the size of some SUVs here.

[TheLeftyMom]

3. The catch is...

That they have (mostly) an excellent public transportation system. Driving isn't always a necessity in most places in Europe as it is here. Our bus system in my town runs three or four routes, only to the poorer areas of town, and is VERY sparse. No trains either. I can either drive or try to walk and with my kid and that's not always feasible.

I'd happily pay $5 a gallon if driving were a thing I did a few times a week, rather than daily, if the government supported a public transporation system I could use.

[helderheid]

5. When we lived in the Netherlands, we rarely drove.

Public transportation there is excellent and shopping was all within walking distance. Most everyone has a bike there.

[0007]

7. You fail to mention their mass transportation system compared

to the U.S.

[donsu]

9. heard that in the UK part of the gas money goes to public health

nt

[BeatleBoot]

10. That's due to local country taxes.

[I Have A Dream]

11. Yes, I've been thinking about this also. Their gas prices...

have always been much higher than ours. This is very interesting information; thanks for posting it!

[mmonk]

14. I'll take the $6.13 a gallon in the U.K. and paid for healthcare.

[elehhhhna]

16. GIMME THE BENEFITS & I'LL PAYTHE DAMN 6 Bucks a gallon.

Fucking onesided bullshit argument: Holland! Look what THEY pay! You would love to have what they get for all their high taxes, believe me. A country where you have healthcare, for everyone, and it won't bankrupt you. Public transportation galore. Where you have the right to decide what you do with your own body, and can even die with dignity buy your own choice, (versus ST Lukes in Houston pulling your plug after they fucked up and gave you a goddamned bedsore. In a critical care unit, yet...)

[CottonBear]

17. Universal health care, excellent public transit and public education

are among the benefits that Europeans and the British get for those taxes. They do not have to go in massivce debt for higher education or vocational training either.

We should be so lucky. Think how much better off we would be with those sorts of benefits.

Did I mention they drive very fuel efficient cars that are also very safe and sporty? You do not see pick up trucks and giant SUVs there. Even horses are transported in vans rather than in big trailers pulled by huge trucks. You really don;t need a car most of the time in Europe and the UK. Those who do commute by car, drive very fuel efficient cars. I have friends in Germany and I have used both public transit in Germany and traveled by car there as well in addition to travelling all over Europe, parts of Eastern Europe and Corfu by pulbic transit: coaches (buses), ferries, ships (ocean and river going), long distance and suburban trains, subways and trams.

[Roland99]

43. Yeah...gotta love these Apples vs. Oranges comparisons

[VolcanoJen]

18. When I lived in Germany....

... I noted that most families had one car. In the families I befriended, the father would often walk to work, or take public transportation. He'd leave the car with his wife (she wouldn't waste gas by driving him to work) so she could do the shopping; the children walked or rode their bicycles to work and after-school activities.

If I ever wanted to travel around Germany, I just took the trains, which were cheap, efficient and comfortable.

Don't many American families have three cars, if not more?

[Boomer]

23. I would LOVE that arrangement

We have two cars for the two adults in my household. My partner uses her car a few times a week for short shopping trips during the day, but my car just sits in an office parking lot ALL DAY LONG.

One car would do us just fine if I could get to work using public transportation. It would also save us about $150/month in commuting gas expenses. So even after paying for the mass transit ticket AND the gas for one car at $6/gallon, we would still come out at least even if not ahead of our expenses now.

[VolcanoJen]

33. Often, the lone family car would just sit in the driveway.

Gas was a big, big deal to the Germans. It was expensive, and they only traveled by auto when absolutely necessary.

Again, it's important to point out that Europe is more densely populated than America, and that makes it easier for their well-established infrastructure. Buses are cheap, clean and plentiful, and run into the late hours. Even in the tiny northern city I lived in, I could travel anywhere by bus. Even if the train arrived back in town at 1:00 in the morning, a bus was waiting at the station to take us all home.

It was quite brilliant, really. Sigh.

[Boomer]

19. We should be so lucky....

We should be so lucky to have a government that takes gas tax revenues to create mass transportation systems that make auto use optional rather than obligatory.

The European model is a perfect example of how a federal government can shape the infrastructure in a way that benefits all citizens and reduces reliance on inefficient, energy-intensive technologies like the individual automobile.

This is called leadership and foresight.

[ps1074]

28. You're right on target

American society is a 'freedom' society... stupid term I know - (I want no taxes... You can take my guns over my dead body... etc etc).

The European model is more society oriented. Society comes first. What is good for the society is good for the individual (higher taxes mean more benefits for the society). Try to explain that to the average american and there will be a riot: universal health care - check, sufficient public transportation - check, gun control - check...

[burythehatchet]

34. I echo your comments

Having lived in Europe, I never missed having a car. Le Metro was fantastic.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. It's much easier to do without an automobile in Europe, generally.

It isn't really fair to make a direct comparison of the prices. You have to factor in the fact that communities there are generally structured in a way that is pedestian/bicycle friendly, and that they have far more comprehensive public transportation. Also, much of that price is taxes that go directly to funding the social safety net.

I would much rather do with the higher prices, as long as everything else that Europe has comes with it.

[DiverDave]

24. Yep, I'd pay more too, for the benefits the

folks in the E.U.get.

[Joe Fields]

25. Yeah, it's tough all over. But I don't live in europe.

[Gold Metal Flake]

26. I'll point out once again as above and on many posts on DU over the ...

...last few weeks that if we had the sort of mass public transportation system that people enjoy in European countries then higher gas prices would not be an issue. I am really not sure why any regular DUer would not already be cognizant of this.

[kenny blankenship]

27. Shit, meet Fan: that's what they'll do !

people can't do their basic living-stuff of getting food, getting to work, etc without using their cars in this country. There are a few places that are exceptions. I can sort of get by if I need to by walking, but I live in an atypical situation for my city. In Europe it remains the case that populations centers are denser than in America, and major cities there weren't designed around the assumption of the automobile. There will be small stores close to where you live, close enough to walk it, or take the bus/metro. In most American cities, you are in trouble if you have no wheels. Six dollar gas will be deadly to the pace of economic activity, and the consequences and ramifications will spread out in a ripple effect. I would expect some upheaval from six dollar gas--lots of anger and blame.

[SoCalDem]

31. If we got the social services THEY get, it would not be a problem

But we get bupkus...except for the high gas prices :(

[MadHound]

35. Invalid comparison

First off, most of Europe's gas prices consist of taxes. They're not paying more per barrel than we are, they're taxing it more. And look at what their taxes give them, a vast transnational mass transit system that eliminates the need to use your car much of the time. Roads that are in pristine codition so that when you do use your car you're not rattled around inside of it like dice in a cup. And investment into automotive R&D so that the car you drive uses less fuel, is safer, and pollutes less than US cars. This all leads to cities that aren't awash in smog like LA and other US cities. And it allows towns to keep their cultural and architechural charm rather than being torn down to make way for four lane highways and parking lots as far as the eye can see.

Sorry, but these comparisons with Europe are invalid, comparing apples to oranges.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. Fuel taxes in the UK do NOT pay for national healthcare

Taxes and duties are not dedicated to any particular use; but fuel duty only raises about 30% of the cost of the NHS - see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=996495&mesg_id=996911

And the subsidy for public transport is about a tenth of the fuel duty: see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1019620&mesg_id=1021840

In the main, the fuel duty is just another way of raising government revenue, though it was also specifically increased during the 1990s to discourage people using private transport so much. This was known as the 'fuel escalator', introduced by a Conservative government, and continued by Labour, until the oil refineries were blockaded by truck drivers protesting against it.

[Blue Poppy]

41. OK, this popular "talking point" makes my blood boil

My husband is English. I have been over there many times. This is comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.

1. Like many posters have stated, Europe in general has excellent public transportation.

2. Cars (at least in England) got astronomical gas mileage. My husband still can't believe that my Hyundai only gets 35 mpg.

3. Driving ANY distances over 60 miles is a grand undertaking. I always joke with my husband that if you go that far in Englan, you need to break out the caravan (RV). People tend to stay in their city centers and not venture that far out. You can walk most places. In fact my husband was crestfallen that we didn't have a bar within walking distance of our house.

:rant:

(I'll get off my soapbox now)

[pitohui]

45. in europe they get free health care and child care

it's apples and oranges

comparisons that insult people's intelligence by definition insult them and make enemies

the greens wonder why they are failures in usa, it's because at heart they have NO heart and will draw on cheap comparisons like this that are of no merit in the real world

i wouldn't care what gas cost either if i was in a rich country like germany w. a strong public transportation system and a powerful social safety net, however, i am an american citizen and have none of those options

[BlackVelvet04]

46. Lots of Americans

drive further to work than their countries are wide. I don't care what they are paying in Euroge.....that's their battle.