Americans 'Will' do the job...if the pay is right!...

[Acebass]

I'm so sick of the arguments that are coming from both sides of this immigration debate...

I agree that the current legislation is way to harsh, however we do have a problem...

I know, personally, how unscrupulous employers will use illigal aliens in leiu of Americans, just to bump their bottom line...

We had, many years ago it seems, a thriving middle class, a man could believe in the American dream and achieve your goals. President Bill Clinton was a prime example. We have, in our corporation society, allowed these businesses to chip away at our way of life by cutting our jobs either by outsourcing them or giving them to illigal aliens.
As a society we can't allow this. It will, in the end, lead to the demise of the middle class and return to a company owned country and we the slaves to the corporation...

Put the blame where it deserves, but if your here illigally you have no rights I'm sorry. However as an American citizen, I'll support legislation that will give you a fair chance to become a citizen like me...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.

– Theodore Roosevelt, letter to the American Defense Society (January 3, 1919)

No man can be a good citizen unless he has a wage more than sufficient to cover the bare cost of living, and hours of labor short enough so that after his day's work is done he will have time and energy to bear his share in the management of the community, to help in carrying the general load. We keep countless men from being good citizens by the conditions of life with which we surround them. We need comprehensive workmen's compensation acts, both State and national laws to regulate child labor and work for women, and, especially, we need in our common schools not merely education in booklearning, but also practical training for daily life and work. We need to enforce better sanitary conditions for our workers and to extend the use of safety appliances for our workers in industry and commerce, both within and between the States.

– Theodore Roosevelt, speech at Osawatomie, Kansas, "The New Nationalism" (August 31, 1910)

http://kenfran.tripod.com/teddy.htm

[salin]

1. beef up labor laws

OSHA laws, worker protections, and slam the hammer down on those hiring illegal immigrants in order to avoid following labor laws (including wage laws), who often pay way below market value thus pushing the 'prevailing market wage' down.

[neoblues]

3. Back to some Democratic basics...

Support Labor... whether unions or just worker's rights and that includes fair wages! It's just morally wrong for anyone to perform full time work and not receive at least a living wage... and that would appropriately include enough to receive reasonable medical care (by whatever means--lowered medical costs/fees or insurance coverage (or both, or other)).

[salin]

8. indeed!

[treestar]

4. So they take it to India or elsewhere

Let them hire who they want. Save enforcement costs. The people they hire just create new jobs anyway, through their consumption and company growth.

Americans have made themselves expensive to employ, through the very laws you mention.

There are already penalties for hiring illegals - the government just does not have enough agents to enforce them. Taxes would have to go up to hire more agents.

If we are capitalist we have to accept this as reality. Captitalists just don't pay attention to international boundaries. As long as someone is willing and able to do the job, they don't care where they were born.

[philosophie_en_rose]

10. If they don't want to invest in the US,they shouldn't profit here.

Deadbeat corporations are like drug dealers. They want to hook us on their products, while destroying the very people they profit from.

Undocumented workers contribute to the economy through their labor, and their efforts. They buy products here and are part of the community. The solution is not to allow more abuses of any workers - but to hold corporations accountable.

[salin]

11. outsource home construction, crop picking, yard maintenance

?? Many of the jobs being discussed are not in danger of being outsourced.

Since the immigration bill of 1986 was passed, there has never been any serious enforcement of the law. It was done to protect cheap sources of labor. For this particular issue, your argument per outsourcing doesn't make sense. However their is a flaw in my argument - I would suggest that the american public does not want to pay more for goods which are harvested or built or maintained by cheap labor.

Many of those supporting the GOP build a fence and deport 'em all type policies simply don't seem to acknowledge the costs per building a fence (taxes would have to pay for this) nor the expense in higher costs of food and other services.

[treestar]

18. Maybe they can't outsource if, but if those aliens are not here

doing it at that price, it won't get done. Then nobody will be doing it.

My argument makes sense about the bigger, growth industries. The ones you point to are not major players - how many international lawn care or construction companies are there? These often are small businesses. If they are the ones employing illegals, it goes to show small businesses cannot be profitable and cannot stay in business employing expensive Americans.

If that company cannot operate at some profit and cover its costs, it cannot be forced to stay in business, let alone force it to pay higher wages for the same work.

Face it, our labor is not more valuable on those simple things just because we were born on this side of the border.

[treestar]

19. Homeowners employ illegals the most

Americans will pay the least they can for anything, that is in the nature of being the purchaser.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060429/ap_on_bi_ge/hiring_day_laborers

[Jim Warren]

20. Shhhh.....keep it down

Same as shopping at the megamart or phastphood giants. Problem is many pay lip service to supporting the small business guy.

[treestar]

2. No job "belongs" to anyone but the offeror

We make it illegal to employ who they want to employ, they go abroad.

We asked for it. Pure and simple. And the jobs that would have been generated had those people worked in the U.S. Now they work in India and those secondary jobs are generated in India. Now "our" jobs are in India.

Capitalists don't know international boundaries. They'll go where labor is the cheapest. Just like you'll buy from whoever it is that is selling what you want the cheapest.

If you buy a car from Buick, Mercedes can claim it's unfair? Buick took "our customer?"

Why don't Americans start their own businesses instead? It's like we are dependent on these big companies. In which case, they have to stay profitable, or they will have to lay us off.

So much in this immigration "debate" is based on ignorance of the workings of the economy (assuming a static number of jobs and static companies) and ignorance of the immigration laws that exist today.

[Lars39]

6. A lot of people are tied to a job because of health insurance

and pre-existing conditions.

[philosophie_en_rose]

7. If employers don't want to obey the laws, they shouldn't profit in the US

Bottom line - the American consumers pay their bills. If they choose to exploit workers - in any country - they should not be allowed to do business here.

The problem with the immigration debate is that it's focused on the workers, when employers are the root cause.

[treestar]

17. We can't prevent companies from operating abroad.

And we don't pay their bills (and profits) without getting something in return (whatever we purchased from them).

[PsN2Wind]

5. I've personally done a number of those jobs

"citizens won't do". Swinging a spike maul on a railroad steel gang, as a member of Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees. Machine operator, slicing bacon for Oscar Meyer,as a member of Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workers. Roofer doing shingles, shakes, tile and built-up (hot) roofing as a member of The United Brotherhood of Slate, Tile, Damp and Waterproofers union.
Citizens WILL do those jobs but not for slave wages and I won't ask my fellow citizens to compete against people that will do so.

[Glorfindel]

9. Theodore had many admirable qualities, but he was a man of his times

When he made his speeches, women couldn't vote, blacks were considered little more than animals, and the notion that a homosexual person had "rights" would have had ol' T. R. calling for the smelling salts. The idea of "loyalty to the American people" is absurd given the history of treatment of native Americans in this country. The only loyalty, the only duty we have as citizens is "to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States of America." It's the Constitution, not the ever-changing flag and certainly not the unsingable anthem that symbolizes and unites this country. I come from a region which has had a huge influx of Hispanics in the last 20 years or so, to pick apples and work in the poultry industry. You're right that American citizens will do the work if the pay is right, but we'd all be paying $10 - $15 per pound for chicken if they did. Also, we'd be paying $1,200 to $1,500 for DVD players and VCR's.

[Acebass]

12. The more things change , the more they stay the same...

Teddy had a lot more quotes than these, and they all seem to illistrate how much we haven't changed ...

I don't agree with your scenario because there is a theory of "What the Market Will Bear" you can sell a wiggit for $1000.00 and make 75% profit, the key is you have to sell it!...

[Glorfindel]

13. Oh, it'll sell, all right...

People who will pay $8 for a cup of coffee and $75,000 for a car will buy anything. I'm as guilty as anyone of buying cheap, foreign-made goods, but sometimes American-made products simply don't exist.

[Acebass]

14. Thats not the fault of the middle class...n/t

[madrchsod]

15. we do the jobs even if the pay isn`t right

we haven`t had a real wage increase since the early 70`s. in 1979 i was making 10 dollars an hour. i could afford to buy a car and a home. try doing that today. we have been sold out for years by both democrats and republicans with clinton finally pushing the whole dammed thing over the edge.

[Acebass]

16. Capitalism is a bi-partisan thing...

Clinton could have done a lot more if he'd had the tools to work with...scandle or no scandle, you see how insulated Bush ios, if Clinton had that loyalty no one would know who Monica was...