Immigration: Whose side are you on?

[prolesunited]

Why are we attacking a class of people who are being exploited rather than the corporations who are exploiting them?

As an example, please read this article about how they are being used in the Gulf Coast cleanup.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/11/15/halliburton_katrina/index.html?pn=1

I'll hit some high points:
Martinez, 16, speaks no English; his mother tongue is Zapotec. He had left the cornfields of Oaxaca, Mexico, four weeks earlier for the promise that he would make $8 an hour, plus room and board, while working for a subcontractor of KBR, a wholly owned subsidiary of Halliburton that was awarded a major contract by the Bush administration for disaster relief work.

Cintra also took me along on visits to squalid trailer parks -- like the one at Arlington Heights in Gulfport -- where up to 19 unpaid, unfed and undocumented KBR site workers inhabited a single trailer for $70 per person, per week. Workers there and on the bases complained of suffering from diarrhea, sprained ankles, cuts and bruises, and other injuries sustained on the KBR sites -- where they received no medical assistance, despite being close to medical facilities on the same bases they were cleaning and helping rebuild.

Seventeen-year-old Simitrio Martinez (no relation to Arnulfo) is another one of the dozens of workers originally hired by Tovar, the North Carolina job broker working under KBR. "They were going to pay seven dollars an hour, and the food was going to be free, and rent, but they gave us nothing," says the thin Zapotec teenager. Simitrio spent nearly a month at the Seabee base. "They weren't feeding us. We ate cookies for five days. Cookies, nothing else," he says.

"Mr. Donaldson promised us we'd live in a hotel or a house. We lived in tents and only had hot water that smelled like petroleum," Reyes said. The city of Belle Chasse has been identified in recent years as one of the most toxically polluted areas in the entire region, with several major energy companies operating there. A wide range of advocacy groups have warned about serious health risks facing Katrina cleanup workers.

KBR subcontractor BE&K was a focus of Senate hearings in October, for the firing of 75 local Belle Chasse workers who said that they were replaced by "unskilled, out-of-state, out-of-country" workers earning $8 to $14 for work that typically paid $22 an hour.



So, basically, we have job wranglers who actively recruit illegals and turn them over to corporations, who pay them substandard wages (if at all), crowd them in horrible conditions, and violate labor and safety standards. When they've used them up, they toss them in the streets.

Do you think the case with Halliburton is unique? The reason so many are coming is because they know they will find work.

I agree that there are SERIOUS issues with immigration that need to be addressed and we cannot sustain an open-door policy. We need to make it MORE expensive in terms of penalties for businesses to hire illegals than it would be to employ those here legally.

But the attacks I have seen on many of these people just astound me. Some say, "They are breaking the law, so they have no rights here." But, I would think as Democrats that we could agree that simply as fellow human beings, they have certain rights -- like not to be mistreated and abused while we turn a blind eye to it.

Attacking the illegals makes as much sense to me as if we were going after African-American slaves rather that dismantling the system that makes slavery possible.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. because we are infected with trolls and naifs?

I give up on DU'ers who have nothing better to get upset about than THE HORROR OF ILLEGALS.

[prolesunited]

8. Actually, it's not just trolls

I've had lots of disagreements with fellow Dems on this. They are losing ground while clawing and scratching to eke out a living themselves. They need someone to blame.

So, while were fighting eachother for the scraps, the corporations and execs are laughing all the way to the bank.

Can you imagine if we harnessed the power of this movement to demand fair wages and health care for ALL workers? The righteous power of people amassed to dismantle the Corporatacracy. Nah, let's just fight amongst ourselves. That will solve the problems? :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

38. Those would be the 'naifs'

who have been mislead into thinking that it isn't the exxon exec retiring with a 400M bonus, its those spanish speaking immigrants that are the problem; it isn't the planetary elites with their free and unregulated flow of capital across borders that is driving their wages and benefits down, it is that labor has not yet been successfully penned in that is causing all the problems.

[mike_c]

2. spot on! All working people are our brothers and sisters....

They are not the problem. CEOs with $400 million golden parachutes are the problem. Corporations who put profits before people's welfare are the problem. Politicians who exploit an already disenfranchised class to raise fear and xenophobia are the problem. But working men and women seeking a better life are not.

[prolesunited]

13. Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not alone

I get more disillusioned by DU every day.

[readmoreoften]

63. I stand with you.

My union stands with you as well. What I don't get is, if immigrants are so bad for labor, why are labor unions taking part in these rallies?

[havocmom]

3. Been railing against illegal EMPLOYERS for decades

my own bad self.

And all for the folks who put water bottles in the desert.

[panader0]

4. I'm mostly Irish and English

both of which were immigrants. I'm also 1/8 Crow Indian, (non-immigrant). All of us Americans are immigrants. Legal? I don't know, taking the land from the Native-Americans, was that legal? Slavery?
The real issue, in these days, is border security, not from undocumented workers, but from those who could easily cross the border to do harm to our country. Right here on my own property (12 miles from the border) I've seen immigrants walking through, early in the morning, in a line, the young women carrying their children, the men seeing me, hoping I won't call the Migra.

[prolesunited]

10. I won't argue with that at all

But by attacking fellow workers, are we accomplishing that?

[msongs]

82. "native" americans are also immigrants

because there were no people on this continent at one time. that was the glory time for animals and plants.

Msongs
www.msongs.com
batik & digital art
mugs and shirts

[bluedog]

5. Illegal=illegal

there are plenty of people waiting to come.they are following the letter of the law.background checks immunizations.....birth records......these are people who are "waiting"....and the illegals.think they can just walk the border.break the law by doing it.and can demand that they be given "amensty"........give mme a break!

[El Fuego]

9. Exactly - I see you are a Floridian

I've noticed that lot of the pro-illegal immigration posters are from the midwest or northern cities, and they have NO CLUE about the problems caused by illegal immigration at the local level.

According to a 2005 report, it costs Floridians more than $4 BILLION a year to provide public education to the children of illegal immigrants, about $165 million a year in non-reimbursed costs for health care, and about $155 million a year to jail illegal aliens in county and state correctional facilities.

Floridians like you and me have to foot the bill. Sure corporations are exploiting the workers for windfall profits. But these profits don't really come from the hard work of the illegals. In reality the corporations who use illegals are just being subsidized by taxpayers.

[prolesunited]

11. That IS a real problem

That's why I'm saying that we really need to go after the employers. The fines (and I'm talking big!) that they pay could be used to pay for these costs rather than the general taxpayers.

[ryan_cats]

17. Exactly!!!!

Exactly!!!!

The employers are reaping the benefits of illegals.
They don't pay a living wage.
They don't pay benefits.
They don't pay into social security.

Fine the companies BIG TIME.

[treestar]

57. What if the employers also employ Americans?

Going after employers suggests that any given employer either hires only legally or all illegals. If you could put out of business all companies that hire illegals, many American jobs could go with them.

[mike_c]

48. I'm from CALIFORNIA baby and I support all working people...

...no matter where they were born or how they arrived in the U.S.

[treestar]

56. There are special laws for Cubans and so they may be legal

in the long run anyway.

When they're legal, they work, just like anyone else, and don't tax public servcies any more than everyone else who is legally present.

[readmoreoften]

64. Northern & Midwestern cities have no clue?

What, you think there are no immigrants in Manhattan, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Chicago and Boston? Whatever. Flat out silly.

[El Fuego]

70. Not "immigrants." We're only talking about ILLEGAL immigrants.

South Florida's ILLEGAL immigrant population far exceeds that of those cities.

Plus, English is still the primary language in those cities, is it not? Spanish is the dominant language in Miami, and if you only know English, it will be difficult for you, because many people in Miami just don't speak English at all.

My best friends are Hispanic, and I love the Spanish language. But I don't look forward to the day when I can't use my native English.

[readmoreoften]

73. Yes, there are a lot of "illegal immigrants" in NY, too.

We have tons of "illegal" immigrants in Northern cities.

[El Fuego]

78. But they are still by and large English-speaking cities

With the exception of NY, you probably would not be required to know Spanish for every single type of job.

Miami is another country, which is part of it's charm. I enjoy going there, because it gives you the opportunity to go to a foreign country without a passport. But it is, truly, another country. Illegals come in and just stay there because it is just an extension of their native countries. They don't need to learn English. It is not so much immigration as it is colonization.

I love Miami. But I also love the English language and being able to use it in my everyday life. If people in other big American cities realized that was their future, it might give them pause.

Legal immigration is a positive thing. Uncontrolled illegal immigration is not.

[prolesunited]

12. Did you know that Mexico actually has a HIGHER rate

of immunization compliance than the U.S.?

[Xipe Totec]

37. What are your thoughts on this other law braker:

Parks is famous for her refusal on December 1, 1955 to obey a bus driver's demand that she give up her seat to a white passenger. Her subsequent arrest and trial for this act of civil disobedience triggered the Montgomery Bus Boycott, one of the largest and most successful mass movements against racial segregation in history, and launched Martin Luther King, Jr., one of the organizers of the boycott, to the forefront of the civil rights movement. Her role in American history earned her an iconic status in American culture, and her actions have left an enduring legacy for civil rights movements around the world.

[Greyhound]

43. False analogy. n/t

[Xipe Totec]

47. illegal=illegal. Where's the falsehood?

[Greyhound]

51. She was an American Citizen standing up (OK, sitting down) to protest

an unjust law. Illegals immigrants are foreign nationals breaking our laws to get some of our money, instead of standing up to fix their own government. These are not people that come here with the burning desire to become American, nor are they trying to correct the inequities of our system, they are economic refugees. We should be helping them to make their home country better, but that's all.

To compare Rosa Parks with the illegals is insulting on so many levels, I can't believe you honestly believe you'd get away with it.

[Xipe Totec]

52. If the law is the law, then the law is the law.

And the law said she, a Black woman, was not entitled to sit while a White man was standing. If she broke the law, she was a criminal. Right? After all, the LAW is what's important here.

It was an unjust law. The fact that you do not see the similarity in the plight of those who are disenfranchised by similarly unjust laws is insulting and disingenuous.

Making a distinction between human beings based on a geographic accident of birth makes as much sense as making a distinction based on skin color.

[treestar]

59. Exactly! Rosa Parks was not treated as a full American citizen

either, so the analogy is a good one.

[Greyhound]

83. That's is not my argument and you know it.

Rosa Parks was an American Citizen protesting an unjust American law. She made her country a better place because it is her country. Have you considered that the Mexican Rosa Parks or Thomas Paine might never realize their potential because they're here being exploited?

[treestar]

58. They are not trying to get our money. This way they are at

least working for it. Foreign aid would be just giving it to them.

[Greyhound]

80. I didn't say, nor did I mean, that they are here for free $

They work very hard, for very little, but the only reason they are here is to make $ to send home.

[mike_c]

49. entering the U.S. "illegally" is not a criminal offense....

It's an administrative fault, not a crime. In fact, there are many shades of "illegal." For example, pushing the speed limit a bit is a genuine crime, and actually WORSE from the standpoint of criminal justice than entering the U.S. "illegally." You know anyone who pushes the speed limit occassionally? I presume you're equally eager to rat them out as "criminals...."

[treestar]

55. The immigration laws are considered civil, so violating them is

like breaching a contract, not committing a crime. You're right, too, it's not as dangerous as many things that are crimes for which Americans are not caught. One wants to ask these people if you run into someone in a dark alley at night, would you rather it were an American about to commit an assault/rape/robbery or a person whose worse offense in life is violating the US immigration laws?

[treestar]

54. Those who do that will never qualify under the current laws

When I read these arguments, they seem to suggest that they could be legal if they wanted to. They cannot be admitted legally. That is why they sneak across. If they could be admitted legally, they would do it, as it would be much easier.

The categories for who can be legal are very rigid. Read Title 8 of the United states code. If you can't make heads or tails out of it, neither can working class Mexicans. If they could, they would find they don't qualify. So the only answer is to stop them at the border. For that, apparently we need a million more immigration agents.

Only huge companies can afford to follow the rules to bring in employees they need legally. And they have to wait, because we have quotas on that. This is even after they proved to the Department of Labor that they are not able to fill that job with able, willing and qualified US citizens or permanent residents. Those companies don't grow, and therefore, fewer jobs all around.

[daveskilt]

68. I am an immigrant - came legally

I slept on friends couches and washed dishes for 5 bucks an hour for years (plus the food they threw out at night) and put myself through college.

not to sound all "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" but every time i hear someone yelling about what they think they should be given (amnesty) it pisses me off. i understand the postion most folks are in who are illegal and that they are just trying to feed their family - but it is possible to do legally. People who don't want to follow our laws (i say our - I am a US citizen now as of 18 months ago) don't have to but they don't have to live here either.

[rucky]

79. slavery was legal at one time.

In practice, legality has very little to do with justice.

[MADem]

6. Because if you focus on people who are being exploited by corporate

pigs and people who want a certain lifestyle of groomed lawns, clean homes, cared-for children and other services without (HORRORS!) doing it YOURSELF, or paying the fair rate for it, then you've less time to focus on wars of choice, decreased availability of social services to the poor, the elderly, the handicapped, and the least of our bretheren....

Or perhaps the truth might be that the economy is about to crap the trou, and they need to get rid of some of those folks, so there will be lousy, low wage jobs for Americans whose jobs have been shipped overseas. Gotta keep 'em doing something when the unemployment runs out!

Or maybe it's a little of both.

[Demobrat]

7. We use their labor.

We should treat them as we would want to be treated. End of story.

[Jade Fox]

14. "we have job wranglers who actively recruit illegals "

People need to know this.

[prolesunited]

25. You don't think they do?

It's a huge operation.

[Jade Fox]

27. I didn't know it, and I assume I'm not alone. n/t

[prolesunited]

31. Here's one link

The few cases that are prosecuted, however, highlight how lucrative a business recruiting undocumented workers has become. In one case, a single smuggler allegedly earned $900,000 over 15 months placing 6,000 migrants in jobs at Chinese restaurants across the upper Midwest.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060415/ap_on_bi_ge/mexico_waiting_jobs_2;_ylt=A86.I2droEJEtCEBAQZQuk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[TreasonousBastard]

15. It's tough to be on a "Side" in this...

and I'm reminded of an old quote about six-armed economists because they keep saying "on the other hand..."

A fundamental problem is employers constantly diving for the bottom in wages, but fierce competition often drives them to do this-- it just takes one to lowball the market and everyone else has to cut expenses to lower their prices or drop out.

Then, there's the constant stream of cheap labor coming across the border, making it easier for employers to cheat, or possible to cheat when they are forced to.

Chicken and egg, innit?

It's not just gardening, housecleaning, and picking lettuce.

Poultry and meatpacking plants all through the MIdwest hirte immigrants, pay them shit with no bennies, and dump them like yesterday's trash when they get hurt from line speedup. They invest more trying to figure out how to make a buck off of beaks and hooves than on their employees.

Cleaning contractors and hotel housekeeping depends on immigrants who don't complain. Contractors are always trying to lower their bids, and the only variable is labor. Newark Airport uses illegals to clean up the terminals, because Lisbon Cleaning and the other contractors have to come in with the low bid. All office buildings and parks hire these contractors, and they all use immigrants to get the low bid.

Back when I was doing payroll programming, hotels were paying maids $3.11 per room. Not per hour, per room, so they could do OK if they were fast. But, the inspectors could knock a room off the pay if it didn't meet standards, so they didn't make squat-- any surprise that English was not any maid's native language?. When I was doing commercial lighting, I saw NYC sweatshops from midtown to Chinatown full of immigrant labor. Most of the places weren't as bad as Triangle, but some were pretty bad. Speaking of Chinatown, things there are as bizarre as they always were, with the barracks rooms and sweatshops for food, clothes, and whatever else.

Home Depots in NJ were a source of concern in many towns because the Latinos would hang out by the hundreds in some of their parking lots waiting for crew chiefs to pick them up for daywork. A contractor I know tells me the Mexicans are good workers, but the contractors who use them work them to death and spit them out when used up.

I guess I could go on about the detention centers and other good stuff, but it's not a problem of illegals, or of evil employers, or of anything else in particular. We have developed a system that completely integrates immigrants, legal or illegal, and changing the entire system would be a Herculean task.

And, what would we change it to? Not what would be the best system, but what would we end up with?

[prolesunited]

18. Well, if it would be hard

let's just drop it.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. That's not exactly what I'm saying, but..

I haven't seen any real progress in workable ideas.

What we're looking at is a situation similar to early 20th century, when we actively recuited immigrants to work the mills and plants and labor had no rights at all.

A lot of blood was shed in those years to get labor some voice, and I don't see anyone anxious to relive those bitter days. I also don't see the charismatic leadership, public outrage over conditions, or concentration of labor that kept the movements going.

At some point the focus has to come to wages and conditions, but I don't see any forces out there to pull this focus together. Big labor might be able to reinvent itself, but hasn't shown much talent for organizing lately, and government supported union busting has pretty much stopped them in their tracks when they do try.

So, what is to be done? I fear Congress, even one we might like, would give us some half-assed "solution" that would at best make things a little less miserable.

Ideas? Preferably workable ones.

[roody]

19. Those meatpacking jobs used to be good, union

jobs.

[TreasonousBastard]

26. Yup. But before that...

they were disease-ridden infested pits of virtual slavery.

Read "The Jungle" for a fairly accurate description of turn-of-the-century meat trusts. When T. Roosevelt read it, he sent an aide to Chicago to see if any of it was true. The aide came back and said things were WORSE than in the book-- hence Roosevelt's Pure Food and Drug laws and busting the meat trusts.

The circle has not quite completed, but if we keep it up, we could be back to those days.

[ryan_cats]

16. I'm tending to lean against illegal immigration.

I'm tending to lean against illegal immigration. Before you flame me let me explain.

1) They get exploited by corporations who use them so they don't have to pay benefits and take away a job from a citizen. They need to fine companies who knowingly use illegal immigrant BIG TIME.

2) They don't pay income taxes.

3) They burden our health care system which is already overburdened with too many people without coverage. Same with the school system.

4) I acknowledge that they should have the right to better their life by coming here and sometimes it's the only way to support their families so it's really a gray area.

I'm all for legal immigration and am leaning towards an amnesty for the one's already here with the caveat that people with a serious felony criminal record shold not be allowed in.

The more I think about it the more I know I don't know because it's prety un-humane to boot people out of the country so you could say I'm undecided but leaning against.

[prolesunited]

20. Where in my post do you get the idea

that I'm in favor of illegal immigration. I'm not.

However, I am in favor of not further victimizing an exploited class and going after the people who are exploiting them.

So, say we round up all the illegals here. If the corporations are allowed to continue their practices, more will simply cross the border to take their place.

It's a systemic problem. We can't cure it by treating the symptoms.

[ryan_cats]

29. Where in my post did you get the idea that I thought you were in favor

Where in my post did you get the idea that I thought you were in favor of illegal immigration?

I was responding to the debate on immigration and not to you although I pretty much agree with everything you said in the above post #20.

[prolesunited]

45. Sorry, crossed wires.

No worries.

[Robbie Michaels]

46. I'm Not Flaming You, But

You've fallen for some of the Republican talking points on immigration, especially when it comes to Mexicans. Others on both side of the political fence have as well, so I'm posting these links for everyone to peruse.

Illegal Aliens Paying Taxes

Impact of Immigration on Healthcare Costs

Mexican Immigrants Not Burdening ERs

The Backlog of Family-Based Mexican Visa Applications (see chart 1/3 down page)

[DanCa]

21. I think we need a humane immigration policy.

The minute men and fence building aren't the way to go.

[mandyky]

22. I am on the fence on this issue and think it make hurt Dems in 06

election.

There is no way to round up and deport 10 million plus people in a humane and cost effective manner.
I think we need to fine employers who exploit illegal residents. (or hire them)
I hate to think of families being torn apart.
All immigrants should be strongly encouraged to learn English, as well as to read.
Americans should be bilingual - not necessarily Spanish - just as a matter of education.

Beyond the above thoughts, I don't have a side, except to say that Guiterez guy on CSpan came on a bit too strong. Being a militant illegal resident or supporter isn't helpful in this climate. I also think we need to care for the poor, homeless and hungry people who are citizens and legal resdients
first. We need to employ our own unemplyed first. We need to educate our uneducated first.

That said, I am not anti-immigrant or anti-mexican or any other group.

[justice1]

23. I'm not on either one of their sides.

Katrina is an example of what has become common practices through out the country.I am trying to work on a solution that would address many of the issues, such as large groups of employees being overcharged to sleep in slums, pay, and working conditions.

While I am a firm believer in illegal, means not legal, we need a realistic approach to the situation. Rounding everyone up, would devastate real estate markets in areas with large amounts of illegal workers.

A compromise would be amnesty for people, who have lived in the U.S. for over 5 years, with a path leading to citizenship. If a person could take a job working for $8.25 at McDonalds, they wouldn't bother with an employer who pays $7.00 an hour for harder work, like construction or processing. It would give the workers in those jobs more bargaining power. If they were able to get $22.00 an hour, like the construction workers in NO were supposed to get, they would pay more in federal, state, local and real estate taxes. That would take a large burden off working class Americans.

In Nebraska, we have notoriously high real estate taxes. If 19 guys live in a trailer, they are paying minimal amount to the budget. If these same guy made a decent living, and qualified for home loans, they could easily add $36,000 a year in revenue at the local level, which in turn could reduce taxes on all homeowners.

It would also mean they would have more disposable income, which would be spent in the community. People with small businesses would see an increase of customers. At the same time, immigrants could send more money home to their families, which could be used for education and job creation, making the U.S. less desirable.

To prevent a repeat of this happening again, I would support a lottery system, for the opportunity to move to the U.S. and work toward citizenship. People that enter illegally would be charged with a felony, and barred from ever entering legally.

Employers caught hiring illegals should face mandatory jail sentences.

[Nikia]

28. We should go after predatory employers

There are legal ways for companies to hire temporary workers from other countries. It requires some work and legal wages on the part of employers, but there is a way if they really need a lot of employees for a short period of time and cannot find enough Americans for the work. Perhaps more visas for this type of work need to be approved, especially if all companies really tried to comply, but this should be the mechanism for hiring them.
Companies that need workers year round need to work within the law to make these jobs attractive to potential workers. That means that some jobs that are traitionally low wage might need to pay more. Why would someone do a truly hard job when there are other jobs available that aren't so hard that pay more or around the same wage? I have heard that there is some problems finding low wage labor in areas where large numbers of rich people live. Perhaps the company providing low cost, but liveable, housing might be a solution in these areas.
There is no reason that officials couldn't go after these companies. I work for a food processing company where we are visited by the USDA and state department of agriculture at least once a year. It wouldn't be too hard for someone to visit companies and look over their employment records.
There are problems with illegal immigration. Taking open borders to its logical conclusion would be bad for our country. We should not punish those in search for a better life. We should punish those who exploit them.

[hogwyld]

30. Let 'em all in

I say if we let those already here have citizenship, and let anyone who wants to come here be allowed to do so. As all things, there will eventually arrive an equilibrium point where supply and demand will be met.

[treestar]

61. That's actually not a bad idea. Being more restrictive ourselves

only encourages other countries to do the same to us, too. Then labor and capital could flow to where it is needed better.

[Kansas Wyatt]

32. Massive fines & penalties for employers employing illegals

Going after the employers is the most and only important way of stopping illegal workers coming across the border.

Set up an extended unemployment fund for unemployed citizens, and finance it with the massive fines levied against employers employing illegal workers. The employers knew what they were doing, let them suffer the consequences and pay those who were damaged.

Impose a three strikes and you're out law for employers repeatedly employing illegal workers, where their business and it's assets are seized and sold off. The proceeds go to the extended unemployment fund for citizens. Repeat offenders are just a menace to society, and should suffer for willfully blowing off the law and defrauding society.

'I didn't know, they showed me their documents' is a bullshit excuse to hire illegal workers, and everyone knows it. When the illegals cannot find anymore work, they will return home on their expense, just like they came in.

Anything less, is just a racket to screw Working Class Citizens into much lower wages, out of jobs that their fathers and grandfathers raised their families on, into poorer working conditions, and into no job security and benefits. It also weakens and defrauds society, so these employers employing illegal workers can profit on both ends and pass the expense on to society as a whole to pay for their greed.

If you want to advocate for illegal workers coming in and staying with legal status, you give up your job, economic best interests, financial security, and your only means to provide for yourself and your family, then you will have credibility on the subject. Until then, you are only shitting on Working Class Citizens, like Corporate America does. Yes, that is the bottom line to advocates trying to place illegal workers into legal competition with Working Class Citizens at the Working Class Citizen's expense.

[prolesunited]

34. So, are you saying that we should try to round up

the ones who already are here and ship them out.

How do you think that can be accomplished? What do you do about mixed-status families?

[Kansas Wyatt]

39. I said MASSIVE FINES for the employers who employ illegals

And seizure of their business and it's assets on their third offense. All fines going to an extended unemployment fund for the citizens who are hurt by this illegal practice.

You will notice in the post you are asking about:
"I didn't know , they showed me their documents' is a bullshit excuse to hire illegal workers and everyone knows it. When the illegals cannot find anymore work, they will return home on their own expense, just as they came in."

Coupled with properly funded and enforced immigration laws, and massive fines and a potential complete loss by employers working illegals, the illegals will no longer have enough work for them to survive on. Nobody told them to come break our laws, so it's too bad they will be forced to pay for their trip back to their country, because they cannot make money to survive any longer here. They risked that when they came here illegally, in the first place. It's up to the illegals to solve all of their consequences of coming here illegally, and that includes any family status. That is not a massive round up, that is cutting off their work and ability to illegally make money here, just like they have undercut and ruined millions of Working Class Citizens.

[sproutster]

33. I agree, it's not black and white. It's very grey, and it needs to be

addressed. But certainly not by treating them like criminal animals. I myself have opposing views and I'm certain I would be flamed to death if I spouted off on either of them. I am not sure how to reconcile them either - But I have an open mind to someone who can offer a solution.

The solution MUST BE HUMANE.

[prolesunited]

35. Well, this thread seems to be on an even keel

Why not voice your ideas?

[Iniquitous Bunny]

36. Excellent post.

I have a lot more empathy for people trying to FEED themselves and their families than I have for large corporations increasing their bottom line (yet again) on the backs of the poorest people in our hemisphere.

[Jim Warren]

40. Lord, Americans are such wimps

I haven't seen this much angst since the Village People broke up.

[genieroze]

41. Sounds like slavery to me. This is why we need to encourage legal

immigration but as long as there are companies willing to exploit the poor they will continue to do so. These companies should be made to obtain work visas for these people and pay them a decent salary plus medical benefits. Good luck on that happening.

[treestar]

62. They can't just obtain a work visa. The only alternative is not

employing them at all. There are quotas on the visas and they are very hard to get.

If they don't employ them at all, that business does not grow, so whoever sells supplies to it suffers, etc.

[Nikia]

69. A company I worked for legally employed around 150 on visas

They needed around 200 workers for 3-5 months with the big months being September and October, months where most college kids are not able to work full time and construction work is still going on. This is a food processing plant. They all went back to Mexico after they were layed off, with some returning the next year. Another food processing company that I interviewed with also employed a large number of temporary workers on visa.
The company practiced this every year so their human resources people dealt with it. Most of the workers were from the same area of Mexico and knew each other there. From what I understand, a few of the workers were the main recruiters for the company.
I am all for expanding the number of visas given out, if there are more comapnies and positions that qualify, but companies need to follow the law: be temporary jobs by nature, wage regulations, advertise to try to attract American workers, workers get background checks, ect.

[genieroze]

84. Then don't employ them at all, don't treat them like slaves. Sounds like

many of these kids and yes many are teenagers are tricked into slavery. At least pay them what they were promised and treat them like human beings.

[hansberrym]

42. I am on the side of keeping the USA an independent nation.

The corporations are using cheap labor to hold down wages in the US -not a new trick, but neither is their playing the race card. We seem to be replaying the late 19th and early 20th centuries all over again.

What does seem to be a new twist is the internationist corporations turning the old game (of undercutting workers' wages by bringing in cheaper foreign labor) to a second purpose -which is to destroy the nation state and replace it with world government of the multinational corporations, by the multinational corporations, and for the multinational corporations.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/7914/trinational_call_fo...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/30/dobbs.cancun /




The way to control illegal immigration is to go after the corporations that hire illegals. Heavy fines could be put into a fund that would later be used to deport illegals who refuse to go even after the jobs have dried up. It took many years for the illegal immigrant population to reach the estimated 10-12 million and it will take many years to get this number down. The first years could be focused only on fining corporations that hire illegals, and after a few years of this, the problem would largely be solved. But if a sizeable number of illegals still remained, then increasing deportation might be necessary.


So while I agree with you whole heartedly that the issue of illegal immigration must be resolved humanely, we ought not let the One World Order crowd and the internationalist corporations use the race card or any other trickery to blind us to their ultimate goal.

[prolesunited]

44. I agree with many of your points

But on the deportation issue, what do you do about mixed-status families (husband or wife, caregiver of elderly parent, etc.)? What if the children are U.S. citizens?

And what about any property or assets they have accumulated? Do we seize them? Can they take them with?

[hansberrym]

66. I would favor going after the Corporations employing illegals first

that way many of the illegals would leave on their own -including familes with mixed status. Of course some would continue to stay illegally and if caught would then face deportation. Families with mixed citizenship would face a difficult decision. However the hardship is not one of our making so while we may not want to make their plight harder by adding fines or other civil or criminal penalties, we ought not feel responsible for results of their lawbreaking. Persons here legally (greencard, visa, or other legal status) who then bring family members here illegally ought to have their own legal status revoked.

Illegals who are caught ought to keep their assets as they would need them to re-establish themselves in their home country. At the most we ought only to impose fines that would cover the cost of deportation.

[Kansas Wyatt]

76. Their family status

Is their problem, since they willfully violated the law by entering the country illegally or staying illegally. They were fully aware of their illegal status when they were married and before any children came along, and the United States never granted them special status to raise a family here, instead of their home country. It is their problem to figure out, since they chose to break the law from the very beginning and knew they never had any assurances from the United States they could stay.

Now, any property (land, housing, etc.) they purchased in the U.S. remains theirs, but they will have to sell it due to their departure or have adequate plans in place to maintain it (upkeep & taxes paid to comply with ordinances & property tax laws). Whatever is theirs they can have, they just cannot have it and stay here, since they chose to come here illegally in the first place.

None of this is hard to figure out, since they willfully violated our laws to begin with and knew the consequences of being caught and sent back.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. As long as capital is free to move across borders unregulated

so should labor. Our high paying high skill jobs are not going to immigrants they are being exported wholesale by the global elites to the emerging industrial nations like India and China. Why is it that the elites are free to move their wealth anywhere to maximize their profits under the banner of free trade and yet working people must be penned up inside their quaint fictions of 'nation states', never free at all to move about the planet maximizing their economic return?

When are we, the working people of this planet, going to figure out that we are all in this together, that it is class warfare indeed, and not only are we losing, we aren't even fighting the other class because we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves?

Yeah, its the spanish housekeepers that are the problem. Sheesh.

[treestar]

60. Exactly. It is like trying to pretend we are a nobility that deserves

better treatment on grounds of birth in a particular place rather than birth of particular parents who had some sort of title.

[omega minimo]

53. Which "side" busts businesses for breaking the law?

"So, basically, we have job wranglers who actively recruit illegals and turn them over to corporations, who pay them substandard wages (if at all), crowd them in horrible conditions, and violate labor and safety standards. When they've used them up, they toss them in the streets."

This issue is being used by the Reich Wing as a distraction from GLOBALIZATION which is where the jobs are going---------

Same tactic used BIGTIME in California with Prop. 187 while Congress was pushing NAFTA through.

And btw, what happened to NAFTA improving the lives of people south of the border?

[Karenina]

65. Ahhh NAFTA!

That lovely deal that gave American corps carte blanche to dump products, undermine local farms, destroy their crops with GM "terminator" seeds, drive them into bankruptcy and buy up their land at pennies on the dollar, displacing tens of thousands of agricultural workers who now risk life and limb to find work NORTH of the border.

Until Americans begin to grok how the elites use racism to cloak their own classism, NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Indeed, as they suck up resources, you will all be left fighting viciously over the crumbs.

[omega minimo]

72. So it created MORE problems, and a bigger (same old racist) bogeyman

to wave as a distraction from corporate globalization.........

Again. :thumbsdown:

[Joe Fields]

67. I am on the side of people who want to talk about the impeachment

issue and for leaving the immigration(red herring) issue the hell alone. THAT'S whose side I am on, until after the elections.

[prolesunited]

71. Ah, but this is of primary importance

right before 2006.

This was started by RW senators wanting to impose Draconian measures.

[Joe Fields]

77. You don't have to take my word for it, but.....

I am willing to guarantee you that you will see a lot of smoke, a lot of steam, a lot of rhetoric, but absolutely no legislation on immigration before the mid-term elections. The republicans want to stir the pot, and that is all. They don't want to solve the immigration problem yet, because it is the wedge issue of this election cycle. They will continue to keep stirring the pot, offering obscene solutions, then blaming the democrats for not playing along. This is an old, worn out game. Trouble is, there is still a little life in it, and the republicans feel that it can keep their base fired up enough to remain in control after the elections.

[prolesunited]

81. The thing is

it's not just their base on this one. They're getting a lot of Dems on this one as well. They may not vote Repug, but they could stay home.

[Cleita]

74. I'm on the side of justice for all and that doesn't mean

I want to build a wall and blame the victim for the real crimes being committed here.

[prolesunited]

85. I do believe

we are on the same side.

[seg4527]

75. phil ochs lyrics that apply here

Come you ranks of labor, come you union core,
And see if you remember the struggles of before,
When you were standing helpless on the outside of the door
And you started building links on the Chain.
On the Chain, you started building links on the Chain.


When the police on the horses were waitin' on demand,
ridin' through the strike with the pistols in their hands,
Swingin' at the skulls of many a union man,
As you built one more link on the chain, on the chain,
As you built one more link on the chain.

Then the army of the fascists tried to put you on the run,
but the army of the union, they did what could be done,
Oh, the power of the factory was greater than the gun,
As you built one more link on the chain, on the chain,
As you built one more link on the chain.

And then in 1954, decisions finally made,
The black man was a-risin' fast and racin' from the shade,
And your union took no stand and your union was betrayed,
As you lost yourself a link on the chain, on the chain,
As you lost yourslef a link on the chain.

And then there came the boycotts and then the freedom rides,
And forgetting what you stood for, you tried to block the tide,
Oh, the automation bosses were laughin' on the side,
As they watched you lose your link on the chain, on the chain,
As they watched you lose your link on the chain.


You know when they block your trucks boys, by layin' on the road,
All that they are doin' is all that you have showed,
That you gotta strike, you gotta fight to get what you are owed,
When you're building all your links on the chain, on the chain,
When you're building all your links on the chain.

Amd the man who tries to tell you that they'll take your job away,
He's the same man who was scabbin' hard just the other day,
And your union's not a union till he's thrown out of the way,
And he's chokin' on your links of the chain, of the chain,
And he's chokin' on your links of the chain.

For now the times are tellin' you the times are rollin' on,
And you're fighting for the same thing, the jobs that will be gone,
Now it's only fair to ask you boys, which side are you on?
As you're buildin' all your links on the chain, on the chain,
As you're buildin' all your links on the chain.