I HONESTLY do not understand why 'they' are protesting tomorrow. In what

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

manner are we treating 'illegal immigrants' poorly. I'm serious ... this issue ITSELF, will start a third party and that party will prevail.

[sandnsea]

1. I have an idea

Why don't you go to one of the cazillion web sites that explains it all. Or one of the other cazillion threads that have been posted on the subject.

Not enough flame wars for you?

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

2. Just got off work 1/2 hour ago . haven't had the time .... and don't

really get it. Tell me to go to some other forum - thanks for your wisdom, Thought I would come here for some insight but I have never ever gotten that from this site - just get a lot of no nothings - just insults like yours.

[Karmakaze]

12. Hmmm...

"Thought I would come here for some insight but I have never ever gotten that from this site"

And yet you have posted hundreds of times? Bit of a masochist are we?

[sandnsea]

14. Where've you been the last month??

Or the last several years, for that matter. Couldn't squeeze in an hour to read up on the subject?

Sorry, don't buy it. Just another pot stirrer as far as I can see.

[LostinVA]

97. Then w hy do you come here? Seriously?

And, why are you so insulting to people you are asking for information?

Very curious, eh?

[shamrock]

3. They want amnesty

so they can be here legally and demand better wages and working conditions. That's the main purpose of the protest. The reason this has come up now is because laws are being considered that would make it a felony to be here illegally. I think I have that right, but I've heard so many different things I'm not sure anymore.

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

5. Here's the deal breaker for me shamrock and I DO appreciate your response

How can an 'illegal immegent demand more money - they shouldnt be earning anything. 15 years ago when I met my husband he was in construction, 20 bucks per hour, for a new kid with some knowledge, but not a lot - fast forward that job no longer exists - it is purchased at a home depot for 30 bucks per day - im going to bed

[shamrock]

8. I don't support illegal immigration

for that very reason.

[rman]

63. So they want (in part) what W wants...

That is a possible explanation for the fact these protests take place at the scale that they do, getting the amount of media attention that the do - which is much more than the protests against W and his war get - even though presumably many more people object to W and his war then there are people objecting to illegals not getting amnesty.

[hlthe2b]

4. oh, gee, I don't know.... maybe

has something to do with REPUG plans to felonize the parents, brothers and sisters of children born in this country, so that their family members are to be rounded up and forcefully removed ("gently," I'm sure). Why would anyone care about their family being broken apart?

Or maybe it is the ultrasensitiviy (:sarcasm:) of these immigrants to being blamed for everything that is going wrong in this country, all the while they have paid taxes, and been exploited by employers who pay them little of nothing.

Maybe they think they contribute to this country and that there should be a viable immigration policy, given the promises made by "FREE TRADE" exploitation has led to this crisis...

Gee, maybe they think they are human beings, too and that given we (who are not direct descendents of Native Americans) are all immigrants, there should be some consistency in our treatment of those who wish to come to this country and to contribute.....


Gee, I dont know....maybe they don't appreciate being referred to as "THEY" and "THESE PEOPLE..." Ya think?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

9. LOL...

Right.... My tolerance for people is an incredible embarrassment.

A question for you, ONTDN, how could you not know what the issues are, if you really live in Los Angeles?

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. LOL

Good catch!!

[rucky]

33. sarcastic much?

If you were a teacher, would you act that way when your students asked a question?

[hlthe2b]

36. All sincere questions deserve an answer...

.....stress on all "sincere"



Just wait, Rucky.... time will tell... In the meantime, why not take a stab, yourself at answering the question? Your student awaits....

[rucky]

55. I didn't detect any insincerity in the OP

maybe i read too much into the word "honestly"

My answer to the original question: Immigrants want to be treated with dignity and respect.

[hlthe2b]

56. Most people here apparently did... starting with

referring to immigrants as "they," OP states they know nothing about the issues despite claiming to be from LA, immediately launches personal attacks on multiple posters in the thread....In my experience, most sincere posters don't accuse other DUers of "supporting slavery," for example (see below in response to BenBurch). Perhaps OP is simply off to a rough start, very tired, or whatever. I detect a rather biogoted attitude, though (as have others on the thread). I hope we are wrong. I'd gladly correct the perception.



As I said, time will tell whether my sarcasm was warranted or not.

[RagingInMiami]

10. No, you are

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

18. so unless I believe like you, I should be banned. thank your for proving

my point

[Karmakaze]

26. Got nothing to do with what you believe...

and everything to do with how you act.

Somehow I doubt you are a liberal. I may be wrong, and if you are, I am sorry to be associated with you, but I would be willing to bet that your attitude towards DU, Dems, and Liberals on this thread who answered your question (that you already seem to have an answer you were wanting to hear parroted back to you) is more indicative of the kinds of beliefs more commonly associated with another web board...

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

32. Karm, you do not have to believe me but I can promise you that I am libera

liberal and maybe even more so than you .... there are weird issues we get caught up in .. this is one of them ......

[shamrock]

35. our party

is really split on this issue.

[BoneDaddy]

95. Our party is split

because on one hand we are trying to do the right thing, treating illegal immigrants with compassion, but on the other hand there are some negatives such as how companies are using them, undercutting labor in this country.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w13rd0]

59. You do realize this site...

...features a spell check, right?

It's next to the Submit button. Check it out sometime.

[Karmakaze]

74. Did my transposing two letters offend you?

Or were you just trying to be helpful?

[w13rd0]

120. I was thinking maybe...

...you needed to learn to speak and spell English...

[LostinVA]

99. Good point about how you act on here

It's NOT what you believe and if someone doesn't believe the same as me or you, is it Karmakaze? It'
s attitude and everything else... good catch. And, good post.

[Up2Late]

54. Yes, Have you read the Rules page for DU?

Here's the link and the first to that apply to this question:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html>

Discussion Forum Rules

These are the basic rules. For a detailed explanation of how we enforce these rules, please click here.

Last updated November 7, 2005.

1. This is a moderated discussion forum with rules. We have a team of volunteer moderators who delete posts and ban disruptors. Members are strongly urged to familiarize themselves with our rules, and make an effort to become a positive member of our community. Those who do not risk having their posts deleted or their posting privileges revoked.

2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

(There are 5 more, but those are the big 2 that most apply here, the rest are at the link provided.)

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html>

[hlthe2b]

30. things we can always count on....

1. a lack of subtlety; 2. immediate personal attacks on eveyone who disagrees with them; 3. an inability to spell....(!)

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

98. Hmmm... let me hold up this beautiful piece of glass

It's so nice and purty and transparent... what should I do with it?

[converted_democrat]

112. What a joke.. n/t

[donheld]

96. You are no reason at all to be embarrased to be a Dem

Your post is great. And besides anyone from L.A. would not spell Immigrant "immegent".

[leftstreet]

7. "They" are being manipulated by corporations and nonprofits

La Raza, the Catholic Church, Tyson Foods, ConAgra.

Corporations and "nonprofit" organizations have a large stake in securing a global slave-wage labor class. These same organizations will be silent when 20 million more workers cross the borders to compete for the jobs that "they" are currently doing.

It's all bullshit.

And while both sides are exploiting racist talking points, all workers suffer.

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

11. Good luck with your blindness - I wish you could see what is really

happening ... no one looks at the big picture anymore .... don't know why I do, or why I care - I should just let it go. LOL to you fool, good luck with the misery you are attempting to create - OH AND YES, ITS WAY WORSE THAN THE CURRENT MISSERY

[leftstreet]

20. ...

:wtf:

[LostinVA]

101. Tell me about it -- you crazy Lefist fool!

[Karmakaze]

21. You sound like you already know...

so why did you come asking this question?

[ToeBot]

27. So, in all honesty, you actually do understand why they are protesting?

You're just feigning ignorance to provoke a response? So tell us, what is the big picture?

[rman]

64. Corporate influence/manipulation IS the big picture...

These protesters want the same thing for illegal immigrants that Bush wants. coincidence?

[converted_democrat]

115. What are you talking about? n/t

[hlthe2b]

13. I agree with you, Leftstreet....

The crackdown must come to the big business that are exploiting illegal immigrants while simulultaneously dismantling the unions and diminishing wages for all Americans. The Repugs only want to criminalize the already exploited, rather than addressing the issue at its cause. How the hell does anyone think we could round up and deport 12 million or more people, anyway?

[leftstreet]

41. How SHOCKING! Cracking down on corporations?

Such heresy!

:rofl:

[hlthe2b]

44. Goodness yes...

What was I thinking? Sound like a damned democrat, don't I?

[leftstreet]

46. You sound like an "old" Democrat

:hi:

When the Democratic party was once the party of Labor.

[hlthe2b]

49. older by the minute with threads like this...

Time for what is "old" to become "new" again, eh? ;)

[leftstreet]

51. I couldn't agree more

What's old is new.

(I hope.)

[expatriot]

17. No, corporations LOVE the fact that it is an illegal workforce

Corporations LOVE the conservative approach of blaming the immigrants for coming across undocumented... it deflects attention from the real problem... that the economies of Central America and southern Mexico have collapsed because of free trade and people are desperate for jobs.

[leftstreet]

24. EXACTLY

Corporations are "global," yet Labor isn't.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

19. Legal protected workers

That's why we should be supporting "them", so that they get the legal right to oppose labor exploitation when it happens to them.

[shamrock]

22. 'they' , the illegal immigrants, can get the

legal right to oppose labor exploitation at the immigration office.

[sandnsea]

39. That's where they will get it

As soon as we pass a law that allows them a path to citizenship.

[shamrock]

42. I must be missing something.

Are Mexicans not allowed to go through the immigration process now?

[sandnsea]

48. No

As you've already been told.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1068373&mesg_id=1069591

http://www.ailf.org/imms/im_residence.asp

[FlaGranny]

109. You should quality that "no"

Legal Mexican immigrants CAN apply for citizenship. Legal immigrants of all nationalities can apply for citizenship. Illegal immigrants from ALL countries cannot apply for citizenship (with the only exception being Cubans). The question here, in my mind, is why are not ALL immigrants from ALL countries treated exactly the same?

[sandnsea]

116. Click the links

The first one leads to a post where I told that same poster, "It's near impossible for unskilled latino workers to get documentation to work in the US."

The second link goes to US immigration rules which show how difficult it is to get permission to work here.

[FlaGranny]

119. I know it's difficult - it needs to be changed/improved

that's for sure. We have to either let them in or keep them out. It's not fair to let them come illegally because they have no options when they are illegal. I think that's the way their American employers like it. Legal entry to work with wages high enough that Americans can compete for the jobs is the only fair way. Bush wants work visas but WITHOUT consideration of wages.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

52. ONTDN, I hope you really are just exausted...

If this is your idea of a coherent position/argument....:shrug:


Accusing any DUer, let alone BenBurch of "agreeing with slavery..." :wtf:


If you are sincere and just got off to a "bad start," perhaps you should get some sleep, chill out a while, and come back another time...

[LostinVA]

102. Dude, I'd love some of that weed you must be smoking

Like, it's giving you a whole new raelty... far out....

[benburch]

108. Man I had a bad trip like that once...

It was back in 77, and there were these little pink cylinder pills the guy said were mescaline. WOW. Who knew that the CTA buses were all spying on people?

Folk Song

- by Bongwater

I met an anarchist in Tompkins Square Park. He was an angry man spinning words so dark. He called for death to rich men. Death to yuppies too. Death to art fags, bourgeois, blacks. Death to landlord Jews. Kill the bankers. Kill the cops. Kill him, her, and me. Kill them all for CBS, NBC, ABC, TBN, CNN, HBO, Live at five, MTV Spring Break, Sally Jessie Raphael, Geraldo, Oprah, Arsenio, Regis and Kathie Lee.

And I said, "Hey, I admire your get-up-and-go, your youthful brooding and sexually-charged enthusiasm, and all your other utterly naive and thoroughly endearing adolescent qualities, and I bet you can keep it up all night, can't you? But I'll bet you dont even use a rubber. No you don't even use a rubber- no you don't even use a rubber- No! You don't even use a rubber- cuz ya, think you're gonna live forever.

Or you have this adorable and misguided notion that death is something really radical and cool, but I still can be wildly attracted to your fresh-faced, uncompromised-tattooed-rebel stance, and goddamn I'd like to have you sing your tune. But I've been making friends with this here death, and it seems a mite too soon. And I said, "Hello death, goodbye Avenue A." Im getting tired of waiting, tired of being afraid. Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved. So I say, "Hello death, goodbye Avenue A."

(Now I'm not trying to be flippant here, or irreverent, or exploitive, or sarcastic, or ironic, or post-modern, and this is not a parody. Get it? Got it? Good.)

I've been thinking what he told me, that it's okay to cry. When we held the crystal Tina Chow spent 12 grand to buy. Homeopathic mantras, fresh-squeezed wheat grass juice. Doctors up in Bellevue. Doctor Salk and Seuss. And it's time we'll all be going home if you can find the way. Yes, everyone is going home, going home to stay. And it's time we find a way to cope; a way to find some hope. For some it's the Bible, or Buddha, or Mohammed, or Krishna, or cheesecake, or bourbon, or the Butthole Surfers, or some Giorgio Armani or Romeo Gigli, and you really can't afford it but it looks so fabulous on you, so why dont you take it on home and speaking of home, isn't it about time you moved out of that East Village hell-hole you know the one with the Honeymooner's view of the brick wall out the window because you deserve something more life-affirming like a tree or a flower, or a patch of grass, or a singing little bluebird, or maybe you just want to take your boyfriend to Europe becuase he's never been, or quit the job you always hated, or learn how to play the guitar -- it's easy -- or get obscenely drunk in a piano bar and sing show tunes, SHOW TUNES, and don't be embarrassed, because, at this point, I'd rather see Brigadoon than Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer. Or maybe you'd like to get politically active, so you disrupt a Presidential press conference by shoving a five-pound week-old stalk of broccoli between those thin lying lizard lips, no one can read anyway because half the country is illiterate, and the other half is apathetic- including the First Lady who couldn't step just 500 feet from the overly-decorated White House to visit the goddamn quilt, or maybe you'd like to put a bullet into Jesse Helms pea brain. But you know when you start thinking like that, when you start thinking like they do, then it's time to let go of the material world. So maybe you'd just like to get yourself some religion. Cuz Jesus is the way, Jesus is the way, Jesus is the way, Jesus is the way, Jesus is the way

...besides it's a lot easier to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior when he looks like Willem Dafoe.

But maybe that stuff turns you off so you rent Power of Myth (made me feel really good for about ten minutes.) Or maybe you'd just rather do acid and listen to Led Zepplin...

Then again, the last time I took hallucinogenic drugs was about five years ago. I took mushrooms in Joshua Tree looking for that Carlos Castanedas kind of experience. I got off my, boyfriend didn't, he fell asleep, and left me alone with the television. I turned it on, and put on PBS. You know what was on? Berlin Alexanderplatz. So I started watching it, and you know what? I got really bummed-out.

And thats when I said, "No to drugs! No to drugs! No-no-no-no-no-no-HELL NO to drugs!!" And maybe you want to say, "No to drugs!" too. Or maybe you just want to join Atheists of America, the Madonna Fanclub, or watch Richard Gere follow the Dalai Lama across the world, and then do those oh-so-zen-like movies with those oh-so-zen-like messages, like, "Hey! It's fun to be a prostitute! I can't wait to spread my legs across Hollywood Blvd, because then maybe some rich, handsome, billionaire in a Jag will come driving up and take me shopping on Rodeo Dr." and that's what a woman's all about anyway, right? sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping -- comeon, it's a sing-along! -- Sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping, sucking and shopping... But, hey, who am I to argue? Cuz it's the feel good movie of the summer, it's the feel good movie of the year, it's the feel good movie of the 90's. Its the feel good movie of the millenium, and you know what? If it puts a smile on your face, and a song in your heart, and a spring in your step, well, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever makes you happy, whatever gives you hope...

...even if its a truly tasteless joke.

So fax a manifesto; pencil in a date; let me know when something gives. I hope it's not too late. Cuz I'm getting tired of waiting; tired of being afraid. Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved. So I say, "Hello death, goodbye Avenue A, hello death, goodbye Avenue A, hello death, goodbye Avenue A, hello death, goodbye Avenue A"

[benburch]

106. No, I agree with citizenship for all who want it.

And open borders in the USA.

Please take your vile hatred elsewhere.

[NMMNG]

25. Smells like Teen Spirit

If you have to seriously ask that question, you've had your head in the sand for far too long. I suspect otherwise, however.

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

28. Man. I gotta be at work early - I have been told that if I'm white I will

shot in the face for working on a day that I should be protesting cuz if you don't call in sick tomorrow you are either Hitler, a racist or are really stupid- if I survive tomorrow, I might post again, if not, I will delete my screen name

[Karmakaze]

31. So some one threatened you?

Then report them to the police. Maybe THEY will believe you.

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

37. no karm, it wasn't exact like that ... im so frustrated tonight - I am

beyond it - gotta go, f it. talk to you soon

[alcibiades_mystery]

81. And a liar to boot

What a disgrace.

[applegrove]

29. Perhaps taking the "American Dream" away from people because

of their skin color, religion & voting patterns doesn't go over well these days? Did it ever?

Oh and, Welcome to the DU! :hi:

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

40. Let me put it this way I work at a grocery store, THey said show up tom

tomorrow - and if you don't bye bye . and so much more but I have to sleep so later

[Karmakaze]

45. Wait, your story seems to be changing...

First you said:

"Man. I gotta be at work early - I have been told that if I'm white I will shot in the face for working on a day that I should be protesting cuz if you don't call in sick tomorrow you are either Hitler, a racist or are really stupid- if I survive tomorrow, I might post again, if not, I will delete my screen name"

Now you are saying:

"Let me put it this way I work at a grocery store, THey said show up tomorrow - and if you don't bye bye . and so much more but I have to sleep so later"

So which is it - have yo been threatened that you better show up, or threatened that you better not?

I'm getting confused!

[applegrove]

47. I gotta go & read this thread from top to bottom later too. It doesn't

make sense right now.

[LostinVA]

104. It still won't make sense after you read it, trust me n/t

[applegrove]

118. I'll take your advice and not read it.

[NMMNG]

76. So which is it?

Were you told not to show up for work or told you must show up for work?

:popcorn:

[saltpoint]

43. Many immigrants from many countries work very hard.

Suggestions to hound them, arrest them, detain them, deport them, deny them health care, etc. are mean-spirited.

It's a small damned planet and the GOP, in control of all 3 branches of our government, has been a huge horse' ass in the way they treat our neighbors in this hemisphere and our allies worldwide.

One issue for tomorrow is: Are there not better ways the lone world Super Power could treat others?

Another is: Doesn't everybody deserve economic democracy?

I support the marches whole-heartedly. Democracy is a lot more alive in those crowds of earnest people than it is in the present Oval Office.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

53. There's a middle ground, too.

Perhaps earned citizenship (provided they are gainfully employed and not breaking the law) with a punitive fine and assorted similar measures -- that's my basic opinion, at least.

[saltpoint]

57. I'm not insisting on one or another plan and would be very open

to various proposals.

But I would insist on a compassionate response from those in charge of determining that plan's final form.

And sadly, I don't think we have a compassionate man at the helm in the Oval Office right now.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

58. True.

But I do think there needs to be some sort of punishment for their actions. It's a matter of fairness.

[Solon]

61. And then what?

People seem to concentrate so much on punishment they lose sight of what they are supposed to accomplish. What will the punishment accomplish, it can't be any worse than what these people have already went through, unless you wish to throw away the Constitution, so really, what's the point of punishment?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

62. It's a punitive measure.

The matter at hand is fairness.

Since I don't believe in deporting people, these punitive measures will, in some small way, level the playing field. It's unfair to those who come here legally that others can enter the country without going through the bureaucratic hurdles.

A punitive fine along with proven English proficiency on their end is a fair deal, IMO.

[Solon]

66. So you force them to pay a fine they can't pay to begin with...

and also require them to go to ESL classes after working up to 16 hours a day to pay off that debt, in addition to not being able to ask for assistance for the ESL classes due to their status, and also not being able to afford tuition for them otherwise. Great solution you got there.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. Nice try.

The fine would not have to be paid all at once, and would be paid after earning citizenship -- after English proficiency is attained.

And the ESL classes would be subsidized by us -- the fine would be used to eventually make up the difference. Their illegal status would be waived so that they could enroll in the class.

Once they have become at least minimally proficient in English, they would be granted citizenship and would start earning a fair wage as a result -- at least one that would be better than what they earned before -- at that point, they wouldn't have to work 16-hour days.

That's just my idea.

[Solon]

70. Sounds good, on paper...

but what about tommorrow's illegal immigrants, or the ones who come the day after that, or the day after that, etc. etc. What you are proposing would be expensive, hell, REALLY expensive, not to mention that its basically paid for citizenship. Besides which, the flood of illegal immigrants will not slow, much less stop, so where is the solution here?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

72. Okay.

For one, their countries of origin could concentrate on fixing their own econonic conditions so that their citizens wouldn't be so desperate to cross the border illegally over here.

And I don't think my solution is more expensive than what they are costing us now.

[Solon]

77. OK, sounds nice, wish it were possible, but it isn't...

People seem to forget that Mexico is under a Treaty obligation with the US to NOT fix its economy, it was designed that way, now we are surprised at the effects?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

80. Which treaty are you referring to?

[Solon]

83. Outside of IMF obligations and the WTO, let's see, oh yeah, NAFTA...

OK, so, let's give an example of Mexico trying to improve the lives of their workers and farmers, let's see, oh yeah, because of the U.S. subsidizing its own farming industry, Mexican farmers can't compete, and are losing their land, so Mexico decides to put tariffs on U.S. Corn, as an example, but now, WAIT! They can't do that, no restrictions on free trade for agricultural products, its in black and white, in the NAFTA treaty. Now, that is but one example, another I could give are Mexican attempts at improving working conditions or other regulations, like enviromental laws. But they can't do that either, in fact, if they attempt it, then they would end up infringing on "investor's rights", a provision of Chapter 11 of the NAFTA treaty. So, what does this involve, let's see, look at several cases regarding this, but first a primer, look at these four links first, they are PDF files, just a fair warning, but they aren't THAT big.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_ag.pdf

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_democracy.pdf

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_mexico.pdf

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_jobs.pdf

[Starbucks Anarchist]

85. I had a feeling you meant NAFTA.

Couldn't we repeal NAFTA? In fact, I think that was one of Kucinich's main priorities in 2004.

[Solon]

87. Did you look at my thread on Illegal Immigration...

I laid out all my ideas here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

Also, just so you know, I know before NAFTA, Mexico wasn't exactly a place of peaches and roses, but NAFTA is hindering, rather than, helping either them or us, so we have to do better.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

88. Sounds fine, but a few questions/comments:

We had illegal immigration before NAFTA, so what was Mexico's excuse then?

Is it that hard to immigrate legally from Mexico? Many people from countries in worse shape manage to come here legally, so why can't/couldn't they?

[Solon]

89. OK, technically Mexico wasn't a democracy until Fox came into office...

They had one party rule for 60 years before that, those were the guys who signed NAFTA, and they were and still are corrupt. Now, part of the objection to NAFTA is this, lack of Democratic control overall, even if Mexico elects a government with a Social conscious, that government is hampered by NAFTA obligations and other treaty obligations that affect their ability to pass domestic laws to help their own people.

Also, as far as how hard it is to immigrate here, there is a quota to the amount of applicants from any one country can enter the nation, waiting lists are not uncommon, and it can cost a LOT of money to apply for a green card here to work and live in this country, thousands of dollars isn't unheard of. Oddly enough, while our rules are loose compared to many other nations, due to income and standard of living disparaties, almost the only people that can legally immigrate from Mexico are the professional and upper classes. They are usually better educated, work at skilled jobs, and in few cases, there are NO obligations to meet for certain professions, this is also a NAFTA provision.

Actually, this is part of the reason why I put out my post, NAFTA seems hypocritical to me, I mean, if money, capital, can move freely from one nation to another, why not labor as well?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

91. Thanks for the info.

So it's mainly financial reasons keeping the poorest Mexicans from entering legally?

I don't know if that's a valid excuse. Most of my family members legally immigrated here from India. I wouldn't say they were poor by Indian standards back home, but they were hardly in the top 10%.

Am I missing something here?

[Solon]

93. I think I gave you the wrong impression...

OK, its not solely financial reasons, though those are important, I mentioned skills as well, Mexico doesn't have a first rate educational system, most people there get primary education, if that, and little secondary. Now, I don't know your parents' educational background, so I can't say anything about them personally. All I will say is that being a college graduate with a skill or major that is IN demand in this country, in addition to having a job lined up, that always helps, increases the chances of being accepted into the country, dramatically. You could actually claim its a class issue in Mexico at least, unlike here, they have virtually no middle class anymore, and their standard of living has decreased, while the upper classes made out like bandits.

This is part of the reason why the Mayor of Mexico City, a leftist, is so popular right now, while he isn't an out and out Zapatista, he's pretty close, politically and economically. So with the stratification of the classes, in addition to unfair NAFTA provisions, Mexico may actually break away from the treaty entirely, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but the U.S. government would go absolutely apeshit over that.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

94. Maybe they will break away from NAFTA.

They already decriminalized minor drug possession, which has pissed our government off. Breaking away from NAFTA may be the next step.

[nolabels]

100. No matter how the agreement rendered, the workers would get screwed

Don't you get it? It was a deal to make any multinationals above any nationally sanctioned movement or law. Big bidness always had the workers over a barrel, they just wanted to make the screwing more legit.

[Solon]

103. I take it that you didn't see my full proposal?

Look here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

Yeah, its somewhat "pie in the sky" and all that, but its more comprehensive than you seem to think, also, in addition to that, unlike the current free trade agreements, it would be subject to democratic accountability.

[nolabels]

110. I have read it and my point still stands

As long as we workers agree with national and international organizations that work on behalf of the employer the subsequent workers will always be screwed. The working people, the laborers, if you will have had several layers of bureaucracy placed in front of them and mostly to insulate money from their, the labors forces. Money can travel across the globe in a few seconds by just the push of a button, but labor is trapped in a stranglehold of red tape and mostly dismissive governments. The current large top heavy labor unions are a joke, they care more about the welfare of the donor companies than the workers in many cases.

The secret nobody talks about is how the majority of the US government (including all it's military) has been organized to protect global capital as the bottom line and everything is secondary after that. If the laborers want real protection from global capital they will have to do it themselves, in spite of everything that was set up before them.

[saltpoint]

67. Would a more workable solution be for heads of state from the U.S.

and our southern neighbors to endorse and implement a bilingual requirement for all school children?

Children in a generation would speak English and Spanish fluently.

A hospital, a school, any workplace, etc. would benefit. It would be a much more workable apparatus for communication. There's nothing wrong with asking children to learn more than they are currently asked to learn, especially when the work at hand is genuinely useful and elevating.

Insistence on bilingualism also demands involvement with and respect for others' heritage. A Caucasion suburb kid in Illinois is enrichened, not burdened, by communicating with the large number of people who are from Mexico, El Salvador, etc. in his/her city or state. Same for his employer parents. Same for neighbors in apartments, bus drivers, and so on.

I would like to see a plan begin at the point of mutual respect and common ground. I think it's a much better place to begin to address this issue than punishment.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. I've always been a proponent of Americans learning another language.

However, I don't think that language should necessarily be mandated as Spanish -- it should be up to the individual.

And as far as our southern neighbors go, if more of them learned English, they would have a much easier time in this country, so it's beneficial to them as well.

[saltpoint]

71. My thought was that all children, not only those in the U.S., would be

bilingual in a generation's time.

That would be a much more governable and respectful society, I believe.

And I would favor English and Spanish mandated -- with a third language choice as an elective.

Very young folks learn languages more rapidly than older folks. This is a realizable goal with overwhelmingly positive outcomes for everyone.

It remains for elected officials to propose and develop plans for economic democracy. That will be less easily achieved. But it is a worthwhile goal.

That's why I wish the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue were not in office.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

73. Mandated languages are not reasonable, IMHO.

Simply speaking more than one language is impressive enough.

Mandating Spanish (or any language) is actually limiting in its own way. Perhaps people would like to learn the language of their ancestors, or maybe they'd like to learn a language that would help them in future endeavors, for example.

I don't think making Spanish mandatory simply because the largest minority group speaks it is reason enough to mandate it.

[saltpoint]

75. With the population influx as it is, I do.

I'd like to see mandatory English and Spanish with third language choices as electives.

A generation from right now, that will be a more workable and more respectful society.

[Solon]

50. They are protesting a draconian law that has been proposed by the US...

Not to mention protesting for the right to organize, etc. etc.

Seriously, its not that complex, and oddly enough, this draconian law would do precisely jack in stemming the tide of Illegal Immigration, and punish people who are as much victims of our exploitative system as we are. They are Marching against Stupidity run amok, basically.

[bowens43]

60. What an incredibly uninformed post.

Ever heard of google?

[Random_Australian]

65. Hey! I'm basking in the flames here! ;). More seriously, give them an inch

and the fundies will take a mile! It happened here - we now have 'mandatory detention' (Read: Automatic Gitmo) for any immigrant without papers. Not nice.

People must take a stand somewhere, why not here, why not now?

[B Calm]

78. They should be protesting for Solon's idea,

a treaty that concentrates on the rights of WORKERS rather than CORPORATIONS!

[Solon]

84. Just to be fair...

They are protesting against a proposed law that is draconian to say the least. However, my idea isn't neccessarily original, nor is it even unproven, the EU is evidence of that, and an exapansion on it is being demonstrated in South American with ALBA and Africa with the African Union. But, basically, I took the ideas behind all these treaties, combined them, added a little of my own leanings in on it, tried to make it reasonable, but far from complete, and just put it out there.

Also, as a side note, you should see the "Anti-Globalization" protestors sometime, they aren't against trade, even free trade, what they want is the EXACT same as you just posted, and many of them also happened to have been illegal immigrants, Union workers, etc. from around the world. That's what FAIR TRADE is all about.

[Solon]

86. Part of the beauty of the idea is this...

It neither requires amnesty nor citizenship, so no real burden on either the immigrants parts or ours. What it would do is make their conditions change only, instead of being "illegals" that have to run from the law, and work at the mercy of our corporations, they would now be free to go back home and improve conditions there, stay here, working for living wages just like everyone else, or move to even greener pastures elsewhere. Doesn't matter, as long as they are protected the same as every other laborer in all 3 nations, exploitation becomes harder to accomplish for employers. In fact, my treaty would actually INCREASE labor protections for Americans as well, in addition to strengthening all Unions across the board.

[Minnesota Libra]

82. Citizenship worked once for illegal aliens that refused to................

.....come here legally and as we can see it's working again.

Before anyone flames me, allow me to say I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with IMMIGRATION:bounce: our country was build from the ground up on immigration.:pals: I just got a problem with rewarding illegal aliens (FROM ANY COUNTRY) with citizenship that they haven't earned.:wtf:

[nolabels]

107. Earned?

Just like all the millions that came before, the newest ones came for a job so they could live. They would not come if they could not get a job or a way to make income. Many come here literally just as a body. The real criminals are the ones employ them under exploitive conditions. They hire them specifically because they know they will get most bang for the buck from them. These employers can do or ask just about anything from the day-laborer and the worker has just about no recourse.

[Minnesota Libra]

117. Bottom line, it's still legal immigration versus illegal aliens and yes...

....they do EARN the immigration and citizenship status by coming here LEGALLY and following ALL our laws.:wtf: Just as I would be expected to follow ALL their laws if I went to their country.:shrug: Notice I am NOT picking out any one country either. Again, legal immigration:patriot: versus illegal aliens.:freak:

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

105. She shoots... she scores!

Love the zing, Bridget! Make me giggle early in the am.

[elehhhhna]

111. Score for Houston, Bridget! LMAO

[librechik]

113. When people forget history

They forget how important May 1, International Worker's Day, is to democracies around the world.

The immigrants simply don't want to be declared felons for rislking their lives to support their families.

They want justice.

[npincus]

114. A few teachers and staff did not show up at my kid's public pre-school

I saw a bunch of 3 year-olds standing around looking for their teachers and looking bewildered.