How can I find the moral justification to begrudge an "illegal?"

[expatriot]

I was born to a middle class family in Iowa. Parents were teachers. If I hadn't gone to college it would have been the exception. I have had so many second chances.

And then I compare my situation with that of the poor and displaced of Central America and southern Mexico, and how can I blame them for seeking out the opportunity of employment, of the great life of having a little bit of luxury a taste of liesure... how the FUCK can I begrudge them? How the FUCK can I say with a straight face that I am somehow entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizenship in the wealthiest nation in the world and that they are not. What the FUCK did I ever do to be so fricking blessed?


DOn't say "I've worked here!" God knows work is not a uniquely American concept.
DOn't say, "I served." Military service is not a uniquely American concept.
Don't tell me, "my forefathers fought and died..." Past wars are not a uniquely American concept.
Don't say, "My forefathers came here LEGALLY..." You can't take credit for something your ancestors did.
Don't say, "Well why don't you nullify your U.S. citizenship and go down there if you feel so guilty." I am too selfish to do such a thing. I know that. But I am not going to DENY my selfishness and try to MORALLY JUSTIFY my position by demonizing the desperate immigrant, by making them into a boogeyman.


People are literally fricking dying just be able to WORK in my homeland, they are not citizens... they are plebians, they are fricking a servant class. Where the FUCK do I get off on bitching about how MY tax dollars (which actually is nothing since the MONEY i earn is a result of my circumstances in the first place) go to educate their children and provide them with emergency medical care.

Where the FUCK do I get off on thinking that my children deserve public education but their's don't. What did I do to deserve my public education?

I need to get to sleep but I am pissed as hell at the xenophobes, the people who speak of "illegals" as if they were less worthy or less of a concern than "citizens."

[Solon]

1. You know what, I can think of no moral objection...

But also I'm dismayed at the idea that they can ONLY achieve livable wages here in the United States. To be honest, I don't begrudge them, I'm pissed at my government, and their governments, in many cases, that created this situation in the first place. Whether its the outright Corruption of the Mexican Government for 60 years, or the US lead NAFTA that was fosted on them that destroyed any semblance of a workable economy down there, all of this contributes to Illegal Immigration. Now, while many other Countries in Latin America are solving the first problem mentioned, and are in the process of slowly rebuilding what was torn down for many years, Mexico is hampered by NAFTA and the United States. And we want to make the VICTIMS of this atrocity be further penalized, what will that accomplish?

Look at my thread on Illegal Immigration, and but ONE way to SOLVE the problem.

[saltpoint]

2. All our bloodlines run far into the irretrievable past.

Everyone is an immigrant from the scramble of peoples over many centuries.

We all are related by the oldest of blood and bone.

This issue places us in one of way too many times when we would have been far better served by having a REAL president in office, one with a perceptive view of world history and one with a brain and a heart.

I believe some of the problem has to do with the vacuum of leadership from the Bush administration.

expatriot, your post was spot-on terrific.

[Swamp Rat]

5. Yes, we are all related.

A great leader would recognise this and then find a viable and tenable solution.

[saltpoint]

7. Hi to you, Swamp Rat. Nice to bump into you tonight.

Hope all's well your way.

:hi:

[Mythsaje]

3. It's not a moral thing...

I work with SEVERAL legal immigrants, some of whom are still fighting with the U.S. government to deal with the issues involved with legally entering this country and moving toward citizenship. It's not US, so much that the illegals harm or degrade, but these people--the ones who do it the way as described by law.

Like the guy whose wife is a Canadian citizen who can't immigrate. He has to go up to Canada to visit her when he gets the chance because they won't let her come here except as a visitor. She can't WORK here legally.

Is it fair to him, and her, to say "oh, it's okay if all THESE people don't play by the rules. Too bad for YOU."

No. It's not.

We can have sympathy and empathy for the people coming from all these places that are so downtrodden and just hungering for a better life. There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, I understand it. But we have rules for a reason, and our rules are even less stringent than many other countries, ostensibly even more "progressive" countries.

It's not about moral superiority as much is it's about what we can afford to give without losing everything ourselves. And that includes all the people who are here legally, and who have jumped through the hoops to make a better life for themselves according to the rules.

In the end it's about fairness and practicality.

IMO

[Starbucks Anarchist]

6. Well said.

[Blue Gardener]

9. I work with many legal immigrants as well

A co-worker is married to a Mexican gentleman who is in the process of trying to become legal. He is currently in Mexico for several months, away from his family, because that is part of the process to become an American citizen. She is supporitng their family without him, with the hopes of a better future for their family. They are doing everything legally, which is what all immigrants should do if they want to remain in this country. Anything else is very unfair to those that are following the law.

[Common Sense Party]

21. Doing everything legally? That's so passe. n/t

[noamnety]

13. I am summarily dismissing the "fairness" excuse

I could not look a person in the eye and tell them they and their children need to remain "downtrodden" because that's what's fair.

[Sterling]

23. on CNN the family they featured had some really fat kids.

Kids that looked pretty much like American kids that lived in poor area's. Everyone looked well fed, nothing like what you see in the sub sahara. I like the US too. So did my family who came here legally and paid their dues. Many of us still live like the people I saw in the CNN segment who are in Mexico trying to illegally get to the US.

[noamnety]

29. Well, I suppose we could make them weigh in

don't want any of those brown fat people in the US, eh?
:sarcasm:

[Triana]

28. Thank you mythsaje, well said (n/t)

[Savannah Progressive]

4. I will tell you what I think Immigration means, and it may help.

First, why do we want to take a "look" at immigrants coming into our nation?

With the plethora of disease, both biologic and viral, http://history1900s.about.com/od/1900s/a/typhoidmary.htm shows the danger of unstopped and unaware individuals spreading a disease. Typhoid Mary infected hundreds if not thousands of people. With even more rapid travel, the danger of massive public infections from an unwitting carrier is obvious.

http://www.ellisisland.org/ Millions of people passed through Ellis Island and among other things, were examined for public health issues, like Plague, TB, and many other communicable diseases. http://faq.visapro.com/Immigration-Medical-Exams-FAQ2.asp We still screen immigrants, and they are NOT barred from entry for that medical exam, they are treated as part of their entrance into the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_potato_famine The most famous agricultural reason to screen incoming visitors, and immigrants. The Potato famine resulted in millions of dead, and is now known what, why, and when. A spore, fungal spore, airborne in travel, but also carried by man, spread across Europe. Agricultural screenings help reduce or eliminate things like this. Today, our Agricultural Department folks spend time screening incoming and outgoing cargo and people in an effort to eliminate dangerous species of insects or spores are introduced to our ecology with potentially disastrous results. History is replete with examples of Man moving a species to a new area, with disastrous results.

We now have TWO good reasons to screen immigrants, health and ecological, before admitting them to society at large. I don't think that those reasons are hysteria, nor are they xenophobic. They are protection of the whole, including other immigrants, from an unknown pathogen which could have disastrous results.

The news headlines are replete with warnings of Bird Flu, and other communicable diseases that are easily passed among the population, many are airborne in transmission. The reasons for proper immigration screenings are many and manifestly wise, as experience has shown us what happens if we don't do those screenings.

Now if we must do those health screenings, and Agricultural Screenings, we have to do them. How do we do them to people who enter illegally? I say illegally because it is the law of the land, I use the word specifically. I don't comment on the morality of the issue, the legality and morality of the policy are not interchangeable. We must screen immigrants, the dangers of one carrier like Typhoid Mary, with todays diseases running loose in the population are many and manifestly disastrous. Who do we blame when something like that happens? When some disease not unlike Ebola, a Hemorrhagic Fever, with a mortality rate of 90% wipes out entire cities before we can contain and stop the spread, who do we point the finger at? Immigration never saw the individual, no doctor looked at the person, and they infected those around them, and they spread the infection within their own community. They work for us, so it spread to us from kitchens and workplaces. Whom do we blame if the Government never saw the individual who started it all?

I believe in Immigration, but I am logical enough to know the reasons behind the laws and policies. With the discussion of Amnesty, Bus loads of people are being dumped at the boarders, and running north hoping to make it across, unscreened, before we make a deadline. Who knows what public heath hazard they may be carriers of? Who knows if one of them brings the plague with them? Right now, the Mumps are spreading like Wildfire in the nation, now in Denver. It started in Iowa, and travels with us as we mobile society our way across the nation.

[monarch]

8. I see nothing in your list of horribles

that could not be carried into this country by a US citizen returning from a trip abroad.

[Savannah Progressive]

10. That is somewhat true.

The overseas traveler must meet requirements of the nation he is entering, as well as US Requirements for vaccinations before departing to speed his return entrance.

http://www.thetraveldoctor.com/immunizations.html This site can give you an idea of what kind of immunizations travel will require, as well as some overview of area specific immunizations, such as Yellow Fever.

http://www.umich.edu/~icenter/overseas/travel/passport1.html This site is Michigan Specific, addressing the University of Michigan students, however discusses Travel Visa's, the requirement for many is proper immunizations. A Passport is a handy thing, but won't guarantee you entry into any other nation, many nations require that visitors receive a Visa. To enter the US as a Visitor means you need a Visa, which among other things you would have proper immunizations prior to entry.

I am sure we don't want to see Polio running rampant among our children again, nor do we wish to ever see the plagues of our history among our population. Immunization is a major step in pubic health, but not the only step. Isolation of the infected individual until the contamination is past is another important step. We can't wish these diseases away, they are out of our daily lives only through massive Public Health initiatives which are lacking now, because Polio for example is eradicated in our nation. We don't immunize children for it anymore, because there is no threat that they will get it. We would have to launch another massive immunization program among the public if it again got a foothold in our population. Imagine millions of children wheelchair bound for life, as President Roosevelt was, for a disease that we had beaten, and allowed to return, because we wished to be lax in our protection of the public.

[noamnety]

18. You're incorrect about polio vaccines, btw

"Polio for example is eradicated in our nation. We don't immunize children for it anymore, because there is no threat that they will get it."

False. Polio is still a required vaccine. 3 doses needed. Source: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/School-rules-Feb-2002_7213_7.pdf

[Solon]

11. Not to mention climate change and animal carriers...

All the recent scares are from animals, whether its the West Nile Virus, Bird Flu, etc. actually, come to think of it, most of these scares are from bird borne diseases, holy shit, let's net the country, no more bird migration through here, no siree!!!

[noamnety]

12. The health excuses are a strawman

The last person I knew who had TB was a US soldier who caught it while serving abroad.

Even if a person immigrates here legally, there is nothing to stop them from returning home for an extended visit, then flying back here. Let's be honest - a green card doesn't magically protect people from diseases. Being a US citizen while living abroad for a year or two doesn't protect you from diseases.

[Savannah Progressive]

14. Nothing Guarantees that a health risk won't happen

Yet, aren't we foolish if we don't take whatever steps we can to minimize or reduce those risks?

Using a Condom won't prevent you from transmission of HIV in every instance, yet it's 99% effective, and don't you want that 99% protection? If it reduces the spread of the disease, and it does, aren't we wise in advocating it to the population? Why stop with one disease, or one type of disease, STD's? Why not advocate for better health for all by demanding that the health screenings take place. Even if they aren't 100% effective, let's agree for the purposes of this discussion that they only eliminate 98% of the heath risks, do we cast them aside because they're inconvenient to our political goal?

Would I like to see more immigrants streamlined, fast tracked if you will, into our nation? Certainly. However I want to minimize the risk to the total population by health screenings, and again, I only addressed two issues, health and agricultural screenings, which is basic common sense precautions in the interest of public health.

We owe it to the society at large, and the immigrants themselves, to provide basic screening to reduce, minimize, and eliminate as many health risks as possible don't we?

[Solon]

15. The point is to not go overboard with this...

Standard screenings and usually requirements for visiting certain areas are a given, but putting everyone that gets off a plane into isolation and then running blood tests on them for no good reason(no outbreaks), is going overboard. Also, we have a long assed border with Mexico, so sealing it, even for public health reasons is impossible. Its in our best interest that Mexico has a first rate Medical system, this lowers the chance of disease in both nations regardless of the legality of the immigrants in question.

[Savannah Progressive]

24. Since it is difficult, we should ignore the risk?

That is asinine. http://www.cdc.gov/travel/tropsam.htm#diseases This link shows what risks there are for South America alone.

Dengue Fever, a Hemorrhagic Fever, is potentially fatal. I presume you wouldn't mind it running rampant through El Paso Texas since there is no way to prevent it's arrival. This disease like many has signs, a vast majority of which would be seen in minutes with a Doctor, or Nurse, and the individual would be inconvenienced only slightly, probably less than an hour. The claim of massive Blood test requirements is foolish beyond any example.

Perhaps we will get lucky and only get Onchocerciasis (River Blindness) which is transmitted to humans via black fly bites.

We can't get our own public health squared away, and the Mexican Government is a mob, taking money in bribes, and doing nothing. There are hundreds of Kidnappings in Mexico City every year, and the various rings of kidnappers are never caught, because the Government is in on it. The Mexican Economy demands a peasant worker class, and they have no intention of changing that in any way shape or form.

I only pray that our Elected Officials in Washington are wiser than many here, because the threat to public health is real, and ignoring it won't make it go away.

Oh, and if you want to stop illegal Immigration today, they could, but won't. A $1 Million fine per illegal worker, per day, to the business would end illegal workers now and forever. The fact that it would also help balance the budget is a bonus, but not germain to the discussion at large. If the Illegals could get no work, then there would be no reason for them to come here illegally, and the system would work.

[Solon]

32. Every singly person on the planet should live in a plastic bubble...

all by themselves, that way, we can really prevent the transmission of diseases!!! :sarcasm: Talk about hysteria, and that is precisely what you are advocating. Its like talking to a wall, I swear.

[noamnety]

17. That's not related to citizenship or green card status

which is why I say it's a strawman.

Either advocate specific health screenings for everyone entering the country regardless of citizenship, or don't bother at all. That's why this is different than advocating condom use - we don't say "use condoms if you aren't an American citizen" or "use condoms if you are such and such a race or nationality." Advocating condoms is not used as an excuse for discrimination.

[Bridget Burke]

26. So set up checkpoints along the Border.

Check potential immigrants for disease. If they're clean--let them in! That's how my grandparents got here. No extensive background checks, no big bucks to immigration lawyers.

The only people discussing amnesty are the xenophobes. Reagan presided over the last amnesty.

And disease can arrive here on a plane as easily as by foot.

[fasttense]

16. They will profit by their illegal acts.

I have several friends from South America who came here legally and obtained their citizenship. True it was difficult but they worked hard at low paying jobs and followed the rules. Now you want to turn around and give citizenship to those who committed an illegal act. I think this is reprehensible. Our country use to be a country of laws. Now we are a country of opportunism. It is the same with large corporations and politicians. They want to profit from their illegal acts. We have become so numb to those who break the law from our pResident on down that we are actively encouraging it.

In addition, how many illegals do you think this country can pay for? Where is the breaking point where our middle class can no longer support them? Let's face it the rich and corporations don't carry the majority of the tax load. We middle class do. If we do not secure our borders, giving out free citizenship to those who illegally entered our country will only encourage millions more to break the law. How are we to support the millions more who will enter this country illegally?

I'm sorry but your premise that serving in the military is of no import is a bogus argument. You are discounting the sacrifice and heroic efforts of others (to protect you) to further your argument. If you are an illegal and served in the US military, you deserve citizenship. You willingly risked your life for the country's protection. This does mean something to me. It means you will sacrifice everything for this country and you deserve, at a minimum, acknowledgment of that sacrifice.

[noamnety]

19. legality does not equal morality

There was a time when helping slaves escape to freedom was illegal. Should the people working on the underground railroad have had their citizenship revoked? Were they "reprehensible"?

[fasttense]

33. I agree with you that legality does not equal morality

But illegals are not forced to work and held in chains. They are willing accomplices of the corporate union busting and slave wage goals.

I bet bush* uses the same logic when he authorized spying on American citizens. I bet he thought violating the Constitution was necessary because legality does not equal morality. He is after all, protecting America from terrorists.

I bet corrupt politicians use the same logic to justify their bribes from lobbyists.

The problem with that argument is that it knows no boundaries and sometimes laws and regulations are actually useful and protect people from corrupt institutions.

[noamnety]

35. willing accomplices?

They are oppressed people trying to survive. That puts them in a very different category than corporate profiteers, or Bush, or the NSA, or corrupt politicians.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. My grandmother came here to steal floor scrubbing jobs.

She crossed the border from Canada after going there to steal Canadian prostitutes' jobs. Before that, she went to England to steal English housemaids' jobs. She could have stayed in Ireland and starved patriotcally, I suppose.

She came here in 1919 with 4 of her 6 kids. 2 were left behind in Canada because feeding all 6 was impossible and the 2 boys were taken in as laborers by Canadian farmers.

I don't think she gave a rip about the "legality" of crossing the border in her search for a better life.

Shame on her for not wanting to be a hardworking prostitute in Canada and coming here to scrub floors and deprive "real" 'Murkins of that pleasure.

[Savannah Progressive]

27. Everyone has a family story of trying to find a better life.

Some go back to the Mayflower, other crossed the land bridge from Asia, and others came through Elis Island. Each traveler sought a better life, and that alone is commendable.

However, shouldn't we ask immigrants to go through a screening process? Public Health, mentioned in my other posts is one very good and Historically accurate reason, but let's take another case.

The Cuban Boat Lift, when millions of Cubans flooded the United States. We began screening those immigrants, and found to our surprise that Castro had emptied the Prisons, bringing us tens of thousands of hardened criminals, people who were literally serving life sentences for horrific crime. Pedophiles, rapists, murderers, and other assorted Criminal Darlings. While the movie Scarface is fictional, it is accurate that many in the Mariana Boat Lift were criminals who prey on society. We gave many of the opportunities to join our society, and the opportunities it presents, and they reverted to criminal ways faster than it takes you to read this. Should we be unaware of the criminal activity of the individuals coming here?

Let's say we have a Mexican Pedophile, who prayed on several children in Mexico. As the lackadaisical Authorities began to close in on the fool, even naming him as a suspect as he escaped north of the Boarder, he is now in America, a land ripe with even more children. Do we believe for a moment that this predator will change? Do we suspect that he has gotten his demon under control? No, our ignorance is a price we pay, or I should say our children will pay.

California Prisons are full of Illegal Aliens, who committed other crimes, rape, robbery, kidnapping, and drug offenses. We didn't know they were here until we caught them and still have no idea what other crimes they may have committed.

[Beausoir]

30. Oh jeeze. You really think Mexican pedophiles are coming to the U.S. to

rape children? Is that REALLY how you view undocumented workers?

That's just goofy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. There were pedophiles on the Mayflower?

Probably. But, America managed to survive anyway.

Somehow, I reckon that America can endure the chances it takes when immigrants come here.

[Igel]

22. I see no moral justification for

traffic laws, or for requiring birth certificates. I find no moral justification for granting those that seek to gain something by illegal means their wish, while those exercising patience and showing respect continue to wait. I find no moral justification for favoring illegal immigrants that have easy egress, whether because of a shared border or frequent shipping, over those immigrants with the same desire but lesser means. I find no moral justification for not setting up an airbridge to transport millions of poorly educated but hardworking immigrants to the US in the next year, reducing the average net worth of Americans to a few thousand dollars.

I find no moral justification for having spent money on a computer and software while people are starving. I find no moral justification for owning an expensive violin or guitar while there are homeless children.

On the other hand, if I looked and wanted to find them, I think I could find them rather easily. Moral justifications are cheap and finding them a trivial task; determining what the morals and values are underpinning them, ranking those values, evaluating competing and conflicting moral justifications, and then taking into account limitations on resources, *that* can be a truly hellish endeavor.

[Atman]

25. A guy on WJournal this morning said sometimes you have to break the law

He tried to say that if you are just trying to make a better life for your family, sometimes breaking the law is necessary and excusable.

So, excuse me...I'm going to rob the liquor store now. Baby need a new pair of shoes.

[Ksec]

34. Just look to the millions of American families

who are being put out of work because of cheap labor illegals undercutting the wage structure in this country.

Thats how.