Any anti-hispanic hate-filled rhetoric yet?

[AlphaCentauri]

The earth is shaking as immigrants rise up around the country with their voices singing "Sí se puede"--Yes, we can. This uprising is in the best tradition of the American Dream and the civil rights struggle for freedom. At great personal risk, immigrants are defending their dignity and energizing the whole movement for social justice.

Let's be clear right from the start: while the mainstream media seeks to put just a "Mexican face" on the issue, immigrants from Haiti and the Dominican Republic, from Ireland and Canada, from Africa are part of the equation.

Immigrants seek precisely what has made our country great: They thirst for democracy and freedom, a job and security for their families, for citizenship rights and to leave repression and poverty behind. While the White House has turned the fight for freedom and democracy into a tragic rhetorical farce in Iraq, millions of immigrants are keeping the dream alive.

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/3336/1/165/

[Ron Mexico]

1. So why is registering too much to ask?

If we've got so much more opportunity here, what's so unreasonable about expecting immigration law to be followed? Because it's inconvenient? So is filling out a tax return or getting a driver's license renewed.

Sorry, but people who think it's some sort of right to blow off immigration law and get social benefits at the expense of those here legally will never have my sympathy. If a law sucks, change it - but picking and choosing what laws are worth following is what the GOP is about, not us.

If people want to follow immigration law and come here, I welcome them. However, as far as I'm concerned, those who are marching as if illegal presence is a right that should be funded have nothing to do with social justice and deserve nothing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Tell you what.

Move to mexico. Denounce your American citizenship. Then reapply for American citizenship.

If it were as simple as filing taxes there wouldn't be an illegal immigrants.

To the OP: answering your question- yes, apparently.

[Ron Mexico]

3. Tell YOU what. "Simple" has nothing to do with it.

The law is the law. Are you saying it should be blown off because it's inconvenient (I'm sure Bush would appreciate such an attitude)? If immigrants don't have to follow laws they don't like, why should any of us - and why should we foot the bill for their social services?

I don't care how hard it is to come legally, I have no sympathy for illegals. Period.

Oh, and if I were to renounce my citizenship, per your worthless suggestion, will you pay to put my kids through school or for my health care?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. If you don't care about other people's kids...

why on Earth should I care about yours?

As for your unwavering support for the rule of the law, if find it, well, unbelievable.

[Ron Mexico]

5. Figured as much.

I don't even have kids, but it's funny that you have no problem with me paying for others' kids when I don't agree with what their parents are doing, but you wouldn't be willing to pay for mine because you don't agree with me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. I didn't think you did.

But if you did, I haven't got a problem paying for the taxes for the education. Why not? I paid for yours.

[Ron Mexico]

7. Spent a lot of time in Germany, did you?

Or did you send checks to my local school?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Oh, you're from Germany?

You can always go back, you know.

[Ron Mexico]

10. Is that the best route for

those who don't agree with you? Someone who came here with his parents and did the whole thing legally has a problem with illegals, and you tell ME that I can go back?

[Avalux]

9. A question for you -

what about US companies that recruit undocumented workers and smuggle them here, promising a good wage and room and board, then exploit them? Pay them 70 bucks a week and house them 15-20 to a trailer?

There are laws for that too - and they aren't being followed. I am sick and tired of our fucking government looking the other way while bloviating about the issue ad nauseum.

Our government does not want things to change because the powerful and well-off benefit from having undocumented workers here.

[Ron Mexico]

11. Those who hire illegals should do jail time. Lots of it.

Why would you assume I'm willing to give them a pass?

[Avalux]

14. I didn't assume anything. Thanks for your answer.

Sometimes if only one part of the problem is the focus, it's difficult to see the entire picture. Yes, those who cross our border are breaking the law and that's wrong; it needs to be addressed. I am against across-the-board amnesty. At the same time though, it's easy to cross the border and most of the time it's encouraged, by the Mexican government and US employers.

The only people who are benefiting from the entire mess are the employers, the corporations (like Tyson), the upper class....and they control our government.

That's where the bulk of our angst should be directed, IMHO.

[Ron Mexico]

24. I'd be happy to see the bulk of it directed at

Vicente Fox. He has done nothing to improve his economy except for exporing poverty to us, and then has the audacity to complain when some of us develop a problem with this after all of these years. Let's get that asshole to do something for his people instead of just sitting back and expecting us to pick up the tab. When Mexico does its annual budget, they actually figure in $20 billion in wire transfers from up here.

Of course, we have millions of illegals of other nationalities, but if we make it too much of a risk for people to hire them, that problem will eventually slow drastically.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Initial disclaimer...

as somebody who buys fruits and vegetables and other such things from the grocery store, I have to confess that I benefit from cheap illegal immigration as much as everybody else.

That said, yes, I'm for the ending of exploitation of illegal immigrants. Which is why I'm for decriminalization. So they can get documentation and work for honest wages.

[Jigarotta]

19. the law is Not the law.

good cripes haven't you been paying attention to the laws that have been broken and changed to accomodate the fatbastards and their purses, but you squeal 'justice' in an issue such as this?

There is no Justice, get it?
Why are the poor held up to such standards when Bush and Corporate citisens can break anything the hell they want - including bodies in wars-for-profit?.

I am getting Sick and Tired of the double standards. Everyone should be getting sick and god damned tired of it all.

[Beacho]

30. So tired of 'it's the law'

There's a difference between law and justice. It was once the law to jail people that aided escaped slaves. Add to the list as you see fit

[DeaconBlues]

35. Tell it like it is!

And by the way, over half million immigrants become naturalized citizens every year. That is roughly the same amount who petition to become citizens every year. The whining about it being too hard to become a citizen is just a bunch of happy horseshit. Illegal immigrants need to stand in line like everyone else.


http://www.urban.org/publications/310847.html#figure2

edited to add link

[RagingInMiami]

37. Where the fuck were you during all the pro-marijuana threads

You fucking hypocrite.

[Dr. Jones]

12. SPOT ON and WELL SAID!!

n/t

[treestar]

15. You don't know how restrictive these laws are, obviously.

Read Title 8 of the U.S. Code.

You can't just register. Most people cannot qualify to be legal, and if they can, they await quotas that say, in spite of the fact we want you, we only take so many per year, - this includes workers who are proven to be needed, we make the employer wait several years merely in the interest of limiting the number of immigrants per year.

The Act is from 1952 and is nonfunctional and outdated.

Those hung up on the illegality of these immigrants are not getting the concept that they are illegal because the laws are restrictive, yet there is still enough benefit to coming to the US to do it in the face of the disadvantages.

But changing the laws we have to make them better match the people who want to come would result in a drop in people who are illegal (for those who are obsessed with the following of every little rule there is).

And you know I can bet you big money that you would not forgo what might be your best economic opportunity with an employer that wants you just out of respect for another country's immigration laws. You're just lucky, that's all. About where you were born. Maybe you'll have to worry about India's immigration laws one day.

[Ron Mexico]

21. I wasn't born here

and don't really care what the law states when I hear people attempt to justify breaking it. You've got lots of Democrats who do it because they feel sorry for people and you've got Republicans who do it for their corporate buddies. Both sides are wrong, IMO, and amnesty every two or three administrations isn't the answer. I don't have a problem with the idea of making legla immigration easier, but I do have a big problem when I hear stuff like "it's too hard." As I said earlier, if a law sucks, change it - and if Chimpy doesn't do it, we should if we get the WH back in 2008.

[TahitiNut]

32. I agree 100%.

The exploitative corporations are trying to do just that - create a 'legal' underclass of workers. Workers who can't vote and who risk deportation for reporting illegal labor practices. In other words, these employers get EXACTLY the same opportunity to exploit human deprivations in other countries without exposing themselves to the now-nonexistent prosecutions for hiring 'illegal immigrants.' It's appalling!

Altogether too many people seem to think it's OK to ignore laws they view as unjust - laws that're proliferating in a neofascist police state. We have more people in prison than any other 'first world' nation, and more than most of the rest. How're them laws working? We have ex-felons deprived of the right to vote - a labor class without the vote. Cool for the corporations who have politicians in their pockets, huh?

As we have more laws than our police forces can possible enforce, we give those police forces an opportunity to pick-n-choose when and against whom to enforce them. That means we create a privileged class and a class that can be arrested for DWB or DWO. Us white, male, middle-class folks just buy radar detectors and lawyers - no need to bother changing the laws, right?

A democracy has the unavoidable obligation to changes the laws they cannot or will not enforce. A democracy cannot afford to have laws that fewer than 95% are willing to comply with voluntarily. That applies to immigration laws, drug laws, and traffic laws!! How many of us regularly drive faster than the speed limit??? It starts with something as seemingly trivial as that.

When 51% see the 'law' as an opportunity to control the behavior of 49% we're deeply embedded in police-state thinking. It doesn't make a fucking difference whether it's anti-smoking laws, traffic laws, abortion laws, or immigration laws!!!

[DeaconBlues]

36. as posted above, this isn't a valid excuse for being illegal

over half a million immigrants become naturalized citizens every year, almost the same number as people who petition to become citizens. The laws are far from being restrictive.

http://www.urban.org/publications/310847.html#figure2

[Triana]

18. What Ron Mexico said (I agree) (n/t)

[Dr. Jones]

16. Extremely one-sided and a bit deceptive.

You seem to idealize the issue. It's not about "immigrant rights." It's about illegal immigration and what we can do to stem the tide of illegals coming into our country. The realities cannot be passed over:

Through unAmerican companies who are hiring these people ILLEGALLY, illegals take the jobs Americans WILL do and DO do, thus lowering salaries for the middle class across the board.

Illegal immigration puts a trememdous strain on our education system, our healthcare system, and our state and local governments. We all pay the price for this!

I WISH our world was perfect enough that we could absorb EVERYBODY in need. But our economy doesn't work that way. If we don't stem the tide NOW, our economy simply will not be able to sustain itself!

[treestar]

17. They do not take jobs Americans would do and they are not

a strain on any government program.

That's all warmed over 19th century propoganda.

What are the laws we have today? Who can become legal? Do you know the first thing about it?

[VolcanoJen]

20. I can tell you this much....

... as someone who has been employed in the restaurant industry for the past ten years, I can tell you with the utmost certainty that ten years ago, dishwasher and busboy jobs were almost exclusively taken by African-American males.

In the past three years, in my area (southwestern Ohio) those jobs are now almost exclusively performed by immigrants of Hispanic descent.

Now, I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when the President insists that immigrants are taking jobs that Americans "won't do."

[treestar]

26. That is not evidence of anything; your personal experience is

not enough to go on, but for all you know those AA males have better jobs now.

Somebody always is on the bottom rung. It used to be the Irish, etc., then the Africans Americans, now the Mexicans - leaving it so they are "illegal" is just a new excuse to step on them a little more.

My Irish ancestors weren't legal in the paperwork sense. They still put up with this kind of "go away" attitude for the nativists, though. That would apply to most of us.

[VolcanoJen]

31. You're funny.

As a matter of fact, I do a pretty good job of keeping in touch with my former coworkers. Restaurant workers are a tight-knit lot and we really love getting together at bars after work.

This great friend of mine, Steve, used to be a dishwasher at a restaurant that has since moved to a new location. Steve used to be paid $8.00 an hour, and he was the greatest worker, I mean, the guy would help me stock beer and mop the place and was just generally fun and cool to work with.

Saw him at a neighborhood hangout a few months ago and asked him if he made the move to the new restaurant. He told me that the owners pulled aside the workers they wanted to stay, and told the rest that they wouldn't be needed at the new place. The back-of-the-house staff at the new place is exclusively made up of immigrants of Hispanic descent, from dishwashers to pantry chefs.

Steve's been on unemployment since. He told me he's trying to get a job as a stockboy at the mall. He asked me what I thought he should write down as his "desired wage" on the applications, because so far, nobody's calling him back.

My personal experience is enough for me to go on. And if you don't think restaurants are almost exclusively staffed by immigrants of Hispanic descent these days, maybe you should take a peek behind the swinging brown doors next time you dine out.

[AlphaCentauri]

33. well I have never seen any American selling oranges by the freeway exit

[VolcanoJen]

34. I've seen plenty of them selling flowers, though.

Oranges, flowers.

There's nothing shameful about hard work.

[Ron Mexico]

22. I've been American for most of my life, and

they took a job I was doing (construction). They take restaurant, warehouse and landscaping jobs, too, which are jobs that Americans do. They take a TON of jobs Americans used to do and still would. What Americans WON'T do is work for two or three bucks an hour.

Or do you believe John McCain when he says Americans wouldn't pick fruit for $50 an hour?

[treestar]

27. That doesn't mean there are enough Americans to fill all of them.

And the legality or illegality is still only due to the arbitrary set of laws we have. Earlier versions were not as restrictive, so people who immigrated and naturalized earlier had a much easier time of it.

Where are the demonstrations by unemployed Americans? Why aren't they in the streets demonstrating to counter the immigrant demonstrations? Can't they point to the job they would have taken? You'd think they could do it - even go to the employer's premises to complain.

[Ron Mexico]

29. Arbitrary or not,

they're still laws, even if they're more aggressively enforced. "I probably wouldn't have been busted for this in 1907" is not an excuse.

As for demonstrations by unemployed Americans, I can tell you that when I was unemployed I was too busy looking for jobs to demonstrate. I can't speak for the rest of them, but my guess is that they're afraid of being called racists. After all, these days anyone who expects the law to be obeyed in this case is merely a racist brownshirt who hates ALL immigrants, legal or otherwise.

[Dr. Jones]

23. May I suggest you crawl out from under that rock

and look at the economic data that proves you totally wrong! You simply cannot rewrite history to suit your own philosophy. Plus, I have millions of hard-working American middle class workers behind me, all saying they WILL do and DO do these jobs, only they are being shut out due to lower-paid illegals and the companies that hire them.

[treestar]

28. How are they be hard working when they don't have a job?

And how can just the people you personally know be a representation of any general condition?

Why don't they protest then? Go to the employer's premises and demand the job?

[zyberg]

38. Illegals....

Here in Tucson, AZ Hospitals have closed, neighborhoods have turned into free fire zones, and wetbackian seems to be the standard language in all convenience stores fast food places and grocery stores. I have never seen a less civilized lazy group, dirty diapers in shopping carts, trash everywhere etc. All this crap about the poor hardworking illegals is fine until you deal with them on a daily basis. If you want to live in a third world country full of little brown brother, that is what you will end up with if we don't take some drastic measures now.

[Ksec]

25. BORRRRRIIIIING