Yesterday, I posted a smackdown of a Freeper in class by me

[SammyBlue]

My huge smackdown on the Freeper in class yesterday. No holding back. I am proud of myself.

Today, just as I expected, the instructor wants to talk to me about it. In the most weakling way, he shoots me an email saying "we need to discuss some of your postings on the class website." When a professor or instructor tells me that, it's usually an "ass chewing waiting to happen."

Here is my response:

With all due respect. . .If that woman who insulted my patriotism complained about my reaction to her insult, I am not surprised. Modern Day Conservatives talk a big deal, then when confronted, they run and hide.

The woman insulted my love of country and my patriotism is most callous, snide and insulting way. My response was justified and I will not change, apologize for or explain my actions or words to no one.

I thank you for the opportunity to call, but I have run into students like this since I started my bachelor's degree in 1996. In a traditional class, I rip them to pieces in an oratorical sense that I have made some run out of the room crying. I never curse or go ad hominem, unless the ad hominem is to illustrate a point.

I won't be calling because I see no point to it. I got insulted personally by some woman who will be molding minds when she finishes this program (which is scary if she has the "America, love it or leave it" mentality. I feel I have done nothing wrong. . .I defended my love of country while ripping her weak, right wing talk show talking-points laden, unintelligent platitudes apart. If she can't handle that, that is not my fault.

I suggest the student learn to debate more effectively. Or better yet, stop listening to Rush, Sean and Michael Savage and come up with a thought of her own. It may help when she's in front of a classroom.

To finish up, that is how I would have handled a student like her in a traditional classroom as well.

Typical. . .get smacked down, run and complain to the powers to try and censor. "waaaaaah! Instructor. Do something. He insulted me! WAAAAAAHHHH!!!!"

[IndyOp]

1. You've got to be kidding...

I think you are using the anonymity of chat rooms to get away with being a bully, and I think that if you take pride in making someone else flee a room in tears you are no better than the power-greedy College Republicans that sicken me on daily basis.

Holy freak - there is a difference between good debate (providing accurate facts and logical arguments) and being a verbal bully.

I *DO NOT* disagree with the content of most of what you said.

I *DO* disagree with the way you said it and the fact that you are being immediately disrespectful to the person whose job it is to maintain some level of civility in the discourse online. :thumbsdown:

It isn't about giving in about your ideas and your freedom to express your ideas, it is about mutual respect. The current confrontational nature of most current political debates is disgusting.

We've got to reduce the histrionics and communicate our points calmly.

Flame Suit On.

[Nickster]

4. Exactly.

"We've got to reduce the histrionics and communicate our points calmly." That's the whole point in a nutshell.

[SammyBlue]

10. My name is on my posting

It's part of a class. It says: "at this time, <enter name> posted this!" My real name is on the posting!!!

[IndyOp]

48. Thanks for the clarification - you aren't posting anonymously.

IMHO you were still being pushy. Your response to the teacher, especially, was over the top.

You are bright. We need you. Your approach is backfiring with teachers and other students in your classroom and it is likely to backfire with students in your future classroom.

I teach in a red, red, red state and everyday in every class I try to communicate ideas that will change minds and change our nation/world.

I have to figure out what they think, and what underlying beliefs are causing them to stay stuck in confusion, and then work to move them a step at a time in my direction -- it takes more finesse to do this as a teacher than students' have to use to have a civil classroom debate.

I am just saying...

[seabeyond]

26. i am so with you. not even really discussing the op on this either

like the woman that just goes to with us or agaisnt us. it is just enough of having to be on a side with talking points, cause we are so divided. fight fight fight. most all of us are looking for the same thing. majority agree on most all things. but we refuse to work together and resolve problems and be respectful ot one another. jsut fight fight fight

[Nickster]

2. Honestly, I think you were a bit over the top. You should call and discuss

it a bit with the instructor. Not saying that I don't agree with your basic argument, but sometimes we need to learn how to temper what we say and how we say it to get the bigger message across. Coming across so strongly and refusing to engage in a discussion about both sides is only going to turn off your other classmates and your instructor. It's not like he's going to take away your xmas presents or anything, what do you have to lose by calling and discussing it?

You start out by saying, "Modern Day Conservatives talk a big deal, then when confronted, they run and hide." and then when you're confronted you do the exact same thing? I urge you to re-consider.

[Ioo]

3. I am not sure, but... I think you should calm down...

I think in both cases you are jumping a little off the handle... Unless you have more information on this gal then what is posted here...

I think that your response here and on the original was way way to defensive given the amount of info you had. She said ".Leave" and while I think the love it or leave it attitude does little to further America as a great nation, I also think that it is not always connected to uber right wing folks, many plain old Americans who are very apolitical would say that as a gut feeling, not with any political bias.

Calm down a little, let the conversation ripen on the vine before you chop it off, I have found that if you goat them along, they will make fools out of themselves quickly, then you swoop in and nail them to the floor... I think you come off WAY WAY over defensive.

[deaniac21]

5. I agree with the other posters. Why are you so proud of being a bully?

[jumpoffdaplanet]

6. Good for you. The instructor isn't a nanny.

The freeper should be a grownup and apologize to you.

[Robbie Michaels]

8. Concur

The other person was out of line. Nothing wrong with taking on a bully and getting the upper hand.

[Ioo]

9. Again, I am not so sure that this is a freeper...

Not all comments we do nto agre with is a freeper. She said one thing, "If you don't like it, leave"... I know many dems who feel the same way...

[Pacifist Patriot]

46. As do I.

I felt there was a fair bit of jumping to conclusions going on throughout both threads about the situation.

[The Great Escape]

7. I Agree With You...

the posting in response to you was insulting. You were defending yourself from a bully; not instigating the bullying.

[ShortnFiery]

12. "You were defending yourself from a bully"

Good for you! We must TAKE our country back ... one enlightened moderate viewing at a time ... Miss Manner's classes will just have to wait.

Rock ON! Rock ON! :hi: :applause:

[ComerPerro]

11. I read your postings, and think you were a bit out of line

You are supposed to be above that, and can't attack them on the same level they attack you because you are not on their level.

Now, granted, the freeper probably knew that and that's why they were so bold in their posting. They are well documented as cowards and whiners.

But she won, because you took it to the level you shouldn't have.

[SammyBlue]

13. And exact what level should I take, pray tell?

The high road? Most Freepers have the intellect level of a cotton swab! The high road goes over their head.

[Dora]

15. I think you should have used it as a teachable moment.

I read your first thread, and chose not to respond. After reading this thread, though, I have to chime in.

IF you're going to be a teacher, I strongly suggest that teaching become daily practice. Rather than using aggressive rhetoric and "smackdowns," perhaps patience and communication would be more effective teaching tools.

As a teacher, you're going to have students who use the same immature arguing styles. You must learn how to teach beyond them.

As an administrator, you're going to have parents, staff, faculty, other administrators, and school boards who have different political beliefs and different communication skills. Is this how you're going to approach the inevitable conflicts?

You have to grow up and learn how to dialogue with people on a level that's less focused on the "score," and more focused on the truth.

You've done yourself and the instructor of your class a disservice by taking such a defensive posture. I think an apology to the instructor is in order, and I think you should resist turning class dialogues into the duality of Me vs. The Freeper.

[SammyBlue]

17. There's a BIG difference between being the teacher and being the student

The teacher must play devil's advocate. The student can present whatever they want. Don't give me this "teachable moment" claptrap! The woman got what she begged for. A verbal smackdown!

As a student, I refuse to put up with having my love of country questioned. If a parent did it (and they have because I'm a teacher right now), I would have the parent removed from the school. I am well within my power to do so. I would end the meeting and inform the parent that I am not your personal punching bag.

Now, please re-read the entire thing. I am not arguing with the woman because I feel like it. I was told "America, love it or leave it" and "if there is so much you don't like, leave!" I do not have to put up with that from ANYONE!!! Not another student, not a professor, not a radio talk host and not even fellow liberals. I do not say that to anyone. And I get VERY aggressive when it is said to me!

As for the future, most likely not as an administrator. . .but as a private citizen and a Graduate Student, I can do and say in class as I see sit so long as I am not obscene.

But to a Freeper, a mere disagreement is obscene to them.

[Dora]

23. Claptrap is as claptrap does.

We'll see which method is more effective in the long run, 'kay?

When assaulted with "if you don't like it, leave," you chose to take the aggressive posture. Yeah, your conservative classmate's initial reply to you was out of line and small-minded, but your response was equally small-minded and you KNOW you're smarter than that. Why play by their rules? Why give them the satisfaction of engagement? Why give any such idiot the satisfaction of knowing you're willing to waste your precious time playing their stupid games of shallow and meaningless opinion?

It's a sorry state of affairs when a bright-minded liberal American like you is more willing to play "smackdown" in class rather than keep the dialogue on the level it needs to be at. You didn't stand tall - you stooped.

And if you're so willing to have a parent "removed from the school," then you're denying their rights as a parent to express their beliefs inside the halls of a public school their tax dollars paid for. It's your responsibility to the children in your class to listen to their parents if they have something to say.

After examining these two threads and your position, it's really beginning to appear as though a "mere disagreement" is pretty obscene to you too.

[SammyBlue]

27. Don't insult my patriotism. . .hot button of mine.

Just like using anti-Jewish language.

[deaniac21]

56. I think that perhaps you have some growing up to do....

[jumpoffdaplanet]

28. Look what the "high road" did for Kerry

It's so past time to fight back.

Good for Sammy

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. I'm not sure running for public office and behavior in a class are...

necessarily analogous.

[Catherine Vincent]

14. You never know.

Maybe the instructor wants to give you a hug for being a good liberal. :)

[BooScout]

16. I think you are angry....

Anger is what came out at me in your posts more than anything. If you plan on teaching for a living you are going to have to learn to control your temper better when faced with opinions and comments that you disagree with.

I think you jumped the gun on responding to your instructor's email before you actually discussed the situation with him/her. You assumed you knew what he/she would say and acted out accordingly. Frankly, you need some maturity on you before you are capable of teaching if you ask me.

Flame away.

[SammyBlue]

18. I'm not going to flame away.

I don't mince words. . .ever!

I speak my mind, whether people want to hear it or not! As for your "maturity" comment. . .hmmm, sadly, you don't know me. A friend of mine posts on here under Noahmijo. I've known the guy for three years. He posts just like me and is accused of the same thing.

Not angry, just up front without the pretense of euphemism ir tact. Kind of like a bull elephant stampede. Everything gets crushed

[progressivebydesign]

32. even your emoticon is angry. and kinda gross.. n/t

[SammyBlue]

33. My emoticon is a joke.

And it's supposed to be gross.

Conservatives make my head explode!

[BooScout]

34. It's not how you post......it's how you dealt with the situation...

Maturity can come at any age. What I am trying to say is.......you need to cool your jets and don't be so quick to fly off the handle when in a professional situation. This lady you posted about may or may not be a Freeper. The point is, you were not posting at Free Republic, you were posting at what sounds like a website for your education/degree related issues. When you flew off the handle at her (and believe me.......as an American who left the US for the UK last year....I hate the 'America, love it or leave it' saying more than most)...you showed your inability to deal with a situation in a manner expected of an Educator or Administrator.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. What nonsense

I don't want you in any classroom near any students. You behave like a 7 year old and then pretend that you are merely "not mincing words" in order to aggrandize your obnoxious behavior. Here's a clue, Sammy. Adults often "mince words." Only petulant children never mince words. The immaturity charge is demonstrated by your response.

[Chomskyite]

19. College teacher with 12 years under his belt here

My university is one of the very lower tier ones. The students have seldom read a book. They're very churchy. Think AJ Soprano with a Southern accent and you have about 70 percent of my students pegged.

The temptation is certainly to take a stand when you hear something like, "The President should be able to spy on us. If we've got nothing to hide, why would we care!" But to respond the way Paul Begala would is probably not education. Instead, when I got this comment I said, "That's a perspective that many supporters have on the question." Then I ask the class to pretend to oppose the domestic wiretapping, then tell me what they would say in response to that comment.

If I'm taking a class, it would probably be a different matter. I wouldn't care too much for score-settling, but for keeping the class going. Anyone calling me a commie would probably get a couple unsavory responses AFTER class from me. But I don't think other students would want to hear what I'd say.

[SammyBlue]

22. That's the biggest problem with academics today

These conservative students will use the classroom as a sounding board for their inane, stupid and trivial positions. They can say the most fascist, hateful, insulting things as instructors, teachers and professors have to remain silent because heaven forbid they are called on their bullshit!

They'll run to the Dean, the Provost, the Chancellor, the Uni. President. . .hell, they'll run to G-d itself if they could to get the educator admonished. It's all a power trip with these people! It's about control! If they complain and their "political enemy" is admonished or reprimanded, then the conservative wins!

This is Higher Education. . .hell, this is education today, period!!!

As Mike Malloy puts it. . ."Jesus Christ, I hate these people!"

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. My job is not to "call people on their bullshit"

My job is to teach content and critical thinking. Going off half-cocked as you do will never accomplish the second job, and the first isn't what you will be paid for, so you may want to consider a different profession. Of course, with your attitude, you are currently unfit for any profession.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Ding Ding Ding

Well said. Eight years university teaching experience here. The OP is clearly not ready for the classroom at any level.

[Sammy Pepys]

20. At least show your instructor some respect...

..and call him if that's what he wants.

[seaglass]

21. I have taken a number of online classes and despise when

the conversation takes a turn like it did in this one. It's about debating ideas not beating up on each other. The person who responded to you in that personal idiotic way never should have done it nor should you have responded back with that vicious attack. It was demeaning to both of you and it doesn't make a pleasant learning environment for anyone else.

[Dora]

24. Nicely said.

:thumbsup:

[Jigarotta]

25. you gonna have to learn that flies/honey/vinegar rule, friend.

;)
constructive advice, is all.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

30. Why would anyone want to attract flies?

I've never understood that one.

Flies are disease carriers, must like freepers and republicans.

Better to stomp them, and drive them back.

[BooScout]

37. Noooooooo....

Attract them and pull their wings off slowly. Much better to watch them squirm before they die. :evilgrin:

[kevinbgoode]

29. Conservatives believe they are the only ones entitled

to freedom of speech - after all, that's how God REALLY wanted it in America.

[progressivebydesign]

31. Both of your threads beg for comment.

So here I go (donning asbestos undies):

The first thread you posted with your answers to the questions really showed, imho, anger and resentment. You have a chip on your shoulder. Every one of your answers was a slap at someone else: teachers, students, administrators. Honestly, who would want to hire someone with such an antagonistic attitude? It's like you're looking for the bad in people right away, especially if they don't agree with you. You posted information on a class website that likened teachers to "nazis". I honestly don't understand why you truly want to be in that profession. I know you've said that you think you can somehow help kids think for themselves, but you state in several spots that you 'rip students to shreds' if they disagree with you. The profession is called teaching, not opinionating or doctrinating.

As far as your 'freeper' classmate. I think your original postings on the class webpage were just as inflamatory. Your people skills are sorely lacking. Your response to your instructor was fairly rude. If you can dish out, then you need to be able to take it. I've learned that while I don't agree with roughly half of America, I still have to allow them their opinion (even tho I may hate it!).

I think you overreacted, because your original postings to the class website were pretty offensive to some, no doubt.

Ironically, we're repeating your class experience. You post some pretty intense things, and get upset with those that disagree with you and your proclaimations. Perhaps you can consider stepping back and stop falling in love with your grand pronouncements long enough to consider that calling teachers who do not agree with you 'nazis' is not the stuff that professional educators are made of. The entire exchange comes off as though you're around 17, but that can't be the case.. as you've reached a certain level in school. Your words and thoughts read like someone who has not had to work in the world much around people who don't share your views.

[Guaranteed]

43. There is deep anger and frustration with humanity in those posts.

I can relate to it.

It frustrates me beyond...anything....that there are some things in our species that just can't be fixed, forever. Yes, it makes me yell, and it makes me want to use... very forceful rhetoric.

But, I know that it is counterproductive to run with that anger- and that's just in a social environment.

In a PROFESSIONAL environment? You've got to be kidding. Never.

Sammy, I understand what you're saying. But you can't go down that path- literally. No one will hire you. I hope you haven't already hurt your career with what you've done, here.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Oy

You are a petulant ass.

I would not tolerate your bullshit in my classroom, or any online postings linked to the classroom. You clearly are beyond civil academic debate.

[novalib]

38. I Support What You Said

and the way you said it.

YOU were NOT the Bully here.

You were absolutyely correct in what you said, and in how you said it.

[mitchtv]

41. Freepers are lower than whale shit in the marianas trench

she sunk that low, kick her in the groin(figuratively)
GOOD JOB

[YOY]

42. The idiot pulled that 'love it or leave it shit'

That mostly comes out of the mouths of people who have never lived and will never live anywhere else. Monolingual knuckledraggers who assume the American way (which is predefined for them) is best.

Good for you. If she would have been civilized with her words, I would have not agreed, but the moment they pull that shit out, you should slap their little goose stepping asses back to kindergarten.

[novalib]

49. What You Said.

My thoughts exactly!

[YOY]

51. Thanks, many here are taking the "ivory tower approach"

But once you let RWers use that kind of argument without repercussion, they begin to open the floodgates wider with more of their rhetoric and pseudo-patriotic assumptions. There is no room for that anywhere, be it in a school, workplace, or even on the street and biting it back so hard that it bleeds is what it warrants. She might as well have said something blatantly racist, sexist, or anti-semitic, that kind of thought deserves an acerbic response.

I've had that line used on me and it makes me furious with its petty assumptions.

Welcome to DU. BTW

[400Years]

52. too many here have a "spread the other cheek" attitude

let the nutjobs come in a say anything they want and then not do anything but spew a few high-minded mealy mouthed platitudes in response.

[Pacifist Patriot]

54. That's an unfair characterization.

Encouraging civility in a class environment is hardly the same thing as asking to take it up the ass again. Pardon me if I think his message was lost in the midst of his irritation and believing jumping to conclusions doesn't help anyone very much. We may disagree with his methods but that's no reason to so crudely insult those of us who would have gone about it differently.

[Pacifist Patriot]

55. We don't seem to be reading the same advice.

The "ivory tower approach" is not advocating letting the woman get away with her assinine comment. It is suggesting there are more mature and appropriate ways of handling the situation given the circumstances.

I wouldn't have blinked if this had been an exchange at a neighborhood barbecue, on a forum such as this, over the Thanksgiving table with a freeper brother-in-law or on the sidelines of a football game.

However, this individual has to face the reality that he is going to be evaluated for a teaching position based on not only course work, but his behavior throughout his academic pursuits. If I were the professor I'd have been mightily impressed with a calm, rational, supported academic exchange rather than a defensive reactionary diatribe.

The woman's comments mostly definitely deserved a response. I just think he could have framed it more professionally given the environment.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pacifist Patriot]

45. I found the entire exchange a bit disturbing quite frankly.

The "love it or leave it" attack was unwarranted to be sure. I certainly would not have let it go without a response. However, I think it is possible to respond and issue a "smackdown" without becoming belligerent. In fact, I believe such rebuttals can be far more powerful when delivered cooly and rationally. Whether you intended it or not, an atmosphere of anger and belligerence do radiate from your posts. I can see the professor wondering if this is indicative of your ability to work with colleagues.

Your own answer to the professor's initial question admits a pervasive distrust and dislike of authority figures. I can sympathize with that but I don't think it excuses jumping to conclusions or ignoring a request. If your professor asked you to contact him/her the least you can do is find out exactly what is going to be said before reacting to a presumed complaint. However unlikely it may be, if your professor was contacting you to express sympathy for your reaction to the woman's ridiculous right wing stance you'd look like a defensive fool now.

I realize we're only seeing one example of an exchange but there are two things about the postings that raise questions to me. 1) You seem as firm in your convictions as the right-wing student. Will that in turn create a situation in which you become an authority figure who insists he is right and refuses to allow freedom of thought in the classroom when a student has the "wrong" thoughts? 2) I realize this may seem trivial and petty to some (and it would be if pointed out on a casual forum like this), but when posting on-line in a classroom environment I would expect to see a higher level of grammar and spelling. I was pretty surprised by the level of writing by everyone involved. Is this typical?

I hope you don't think this criticism is reflective of how I would feel about you as a person. It is merely my perspective on the particular exchange you shared with us. I'm afraid I cannot view this as one person being completely wrong and another completely justified.

[IdaBriggs]

50. I've now read both threads -- and I think you are doing well!

College is supposed to be about THINKING, and I think ALL OF YOU -- your professor, your fellow student and you -- are having a "learning" moment.

You are learning about the importance of standing up against people who try to threaten you with "love it or leave it" rhetoric, your fellow student is learning that insulting words will get you "insulting" words back, and your professor is learning when its time to leave two real live grown ups to work things out all on their own.

You were asked to relate your personal experiences and what you learned from them, and someone chose to verbally attack you and your patriotism. This person behaved abominably, and verbally lambasting them back was completely justified in my opinion.

Those who are advocating the "honey" approach are welcome to try it; personally, I think one must learn to use different techniques with different people, as the "same" techniques don't work on everyone -- and fighting verbal fire with verbal fire can be a very "educational" method of teaching "non-rude" behavior. Yes, there are other methods, including humor, ridicule, empathy, compassion, etc., but the bottom line is that this method obviously sparked "something" for both of you because a) she got your goat, and b) you got hers right back (otherwise your instructor obviously wouldn't feel a need to say something to either one of you).

I hope you keep us posted on the follow-up to this fascinating life experience! In the meantime, I say GOOD JOB!!!

As for the inevitable non-support you will receive from your posting, I suggest you give everyones opinions (including mine!) all the consideration they are due -- and since this is an anonymous internet posting board for "liberals" (which means we are all hard headed opinionated individuals who are completely convinced we know the ONLY way to "properly" communicate -- note sarcasm!), that means you will get both positive and negative feedback. Which you choose to give the most weight to is definitely something only you can decide on.

Spelling and grammar aside, I applaud your willingness to take a moral stand against verbal abuse and bullying; I also suggest you offer to escort the little freeper woman down to her local recruiting station before she attempts to decide which citizens are "more entitled" to the protections of our constitution again. Other than that, perhaps she needs to keep her stupid, uneducated opinion to herself, lest someone with more than half a brain verbally beat her to a bloody pulp!!!

As I said, GOOD JOB!!!

:yourock:

[immoderate]

53. You should behave professionally.

You are going for a professional degree. You should emulate the highest standard at all times. First get a dictionary. As an educational supervisor, you should be literate. If you were in medical school, would you spit in your hands before examining a patient? The issues you mention are secondary. The way you handle them is primary. You should definitely see your professor. I'm sure he has some vital advice for you. If he's competent he doesn't want to "chew your ass" he wants to give you a clue.

I agree with the posters who say you are not ready or not suitable for the profession of education. As an educator, I always allow for the possibility of enlightenment, so I won't say get out. It sounds to me like you want to use the profession as a platform for revenge for past slights. You should have outgrown that by now. Your job is to turn the lights on in developing minds, not smack them down, and pin them to the canvas. You are in the tradition of Socrates, not Triple-H. You are in a collegial setting and your techniques and demeanor should be impeccable. Your role is not devil's advocate, but mentor and facilitator. You should not see yourself as competing with your students.

You may think it's petty, but I've sat on selection boards for principal candidates, and seen some disqualified for a grammatical error. How many years of college does it take to know that "alot" is not a word?

--IMM

[sendero]

57. I take the middle ground..

... I don't have any problem with anything you said, but I think you should have said it all in person.