Should illegal immigrants be arrested at today's demonstrations?

[rodeodance]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/

Question of the Day
Immigration Protests: Should illegal immigrants be arrested at today's demonstrations? * 8313 responses
Yes
67% No 33%
Thank you for voting. Click to send us an e-mail to share your thoughts. Plus, see past voting results.

[rodeodance]

1. I think this is a mean spirited question

[marmar]

2. 67 percent yes?

That's really sad to see. :cry: And I agree that it's a mean-spirited question.

[rodeodance]

23. someone obviously thinks it is a cute question!

[MercutioATC]

31. I'm surprised it's only 67%

I wouldn't advocate checking everybody's IDs, but if any illegals are arrested, it'd be a great opportunity to deport them.

[question everything]

117. What, then, should we do with illegal immigrants?

Say I am sorry, welcome over, open our homes and apartments for them, feed them and then them for breaking the law, while million others do enter this country legally?

[slide to the left]

3. If there was a drug dealer's convention

would you want them arrested?

[benburch]

9. Nope!

Because neither immigration not drugs ought to be illegal.

[slide to the left]

13. I agree nt

[JuniperLea]

111. Does that mean you side with Bush when he ignores laws?

He thinks some laws shouldn't be laws and he ignores them... just wondering:)

[Cleita]

10. There are sex industry conventions. Should you arrest them

although at the time they are not turning tricks? I think you know the answer.

[benburch]

22. I've helped organize some of those.

And that shouldn't be illegal either!

[MercutioATC]

32. Ridiculous analogy...

Unless sex workers are currently engaged in an illegal activity, there's no reason to arrest them.

Illegal immigrants are breaking immigration law just by being here...they're in a constant state of lawbreaking.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Sit-ins at lunch counters were illegal.

Should they have been arrested, or just hit with the fire hose?

[MercutioATC]

38. They should have been asked to move on.

If they refused, they should have been arrested.

What does that have to do with comparing people who aren't breaking the law with people who are?

[benburch]

44. So you want Jim Crow laws????

Or do I (I hope) totally misread what you just wrote?

[MercutioATC]

48. I'm not talking about the validity of the law, just the response

to violating it. The choices given were arrest and fire hoses. Since a LEO is bound to enforce the law, I think arrest would be better than fire hoses, but they HAVE to enforce it.

Don't like the law? Change it.

[benburch]

50. No, a LEO is NOT bound to enforce all laws.

They have considerable latitude, and always have. And always SHOULD.

Without civil disobedience, there would have been no 40 hour week.

Learn some history.

[MercutioATC]

60. Actually, they are.

Law Enforcement Oath of Honor

On my honor,
I will never betray my badge,
my integrity, my character,
or the public trust.

I will always have the courage
to hold myself and others
accountable for our actions.

I will always uphold the
Constitution,
the community,
and the agency I serve,
so help me God.


Upholding "the community and the agency" they serve entails enforcing the law.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Thanks.

That's what I thought.

[mondo joe]

64. As I recall, part of the civil disobedience of that era was

a willingness to be arrested.

And arrests were made.

That's part of of how laws were changed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Indeed.

But the people who were supporting them weren't calling for their arrests.

[mondo joe]

67. Depends. Some of it was certainly strategic.

Same can be said of a number of movements. One way to change a law is to get in a position to legally challenge it.

[benburch]

42. Breaking an inhumane and anti-American law.

I think they should all get applause.

[MercutioATC]

43. It's "inhumane" to have an immigration process?

Geez...

:eyes:

[benburch]

51. It is.

America MUST be a land of freedom for the oppressed everywhere.

[MercutioATC]

59. Let me know how many unskilled illegal immigrants you're willing

to house (and support) in your own home...

...because, by extention, this country IS your home.

It's a nice sentiment, but it's naive to believe that we have the ability to support ALL oppressed people.

[acmavm]

66. And do you ever see a time when we can't absorb more people?

Do I understand you when you say that we should never have immigration quotas?????????????????

[benburch]

71. Never.

And we should have open borders.

It is the only thing in keeping with the American Way.

[JuniperLea]

114. How can we take care of so many

When we can't take care of those we already have?

[Xithras]

138. There's a BIG difference between immigration reform and open borders

We must have a mechanism to filter out who comes to the US. Do you really want Guatamalan rapists, Mexican child molesters, or Salvadoran leftist militants just walking across the border into the US unchecked? While the vast majority of immigrants ARE hard working, honest people, there is also a criminal element which is actively exploiting our open border for its own benefit. There ARE criminals walking across the border into the US every day. Americans are killed, every single day, by people who are in this country illegally.

We must know who is entering our country, and prohibit those who might do us harm from getting in. Call it the "Build a fence, but open the gate" strategy. It should NOT take years to get into the US legally...with modern technology, the process really shouldn't take more than a few months. What we need to do is overhaul the INS and streamline the process.

Opening the border is like amputating your foot to fix an ingrown toenail. It fixes the problem, but creates far more new ones.

[JuniperLea]

112. I guess we should let Bush ignore all those 700+ laws he thinks

should not be laws.

[JuniperLea]

113. I must be missing something, Ben

I tend to agree with your posts but those in this thread confuse me. Can you explain how the laws broken by illegal immigration are inhumane and anti-American?

:shrug:

[Cleita]

135. How would you like to go through life as a non-person with

few rights because the law says so? In Nazi Germany the Jews were made illegal, even those born there and living there for generations. They couldn't hold most jobs. They couldn't live in most neighborhoods. Worse than that they couldn't shop in most stores even grocery stores. So here were people who were mostly kept from earning a living, and even if they could go shopping weren't allowed to. So what did they do? They broke the laws to survive, which ended up with them being shipped to concentration camps. This is what xenophobic unjust laws lead to and I don't think we need to obey unjust laws.

[JuniperLea]

137. Apples and oranges and a free for all with cherry picking

So you are saying it's ok to cherry pick which laws should be obeyed and which should not?

[Cleita]

140. Remember the Nuremburg trials after the war?

This is when the Nazis on trial kept saying, "I was only following orders." Apparently the tribunal felt they should have disobeyed unjust laws.

Then there was the underground railroad before the Civil War. Many law abiding citizens broke the law to help free runaway slaves.

So I'm not cherrypicking, but unjust laws that create victims should not be obeyed, IMHO.

[JuniperLea]

141. I'm just saying

If any of us are willing to cherry pick the laws we deem worthy of upholding, then we can't bitch at GW and the RW for doing the same.

And the current laws do not create victims in this country. If it were about people already here legally, like the Jews were in Germany, that would be different. It's a choice that the illegal immigrants come here... the slaves had no choice.

Apples and oranges.

[Cleita]

142. Read your history, the Jews were never full German citizens and

were tolerated as an underclass. Then Hitler's regime passed laws making them thoroughly illegal.

I'm sure Lynndie England and her boyfriend are wishing they didn't obey orders after all. So you admit after all that some laws shouldn't be obeyed because they never should have been passed.

Remember that the American southwest once belonged to Mexico before we annexed those states as territories, so it begs the question as to whom really are the illegals.

I say lets drop this and move forward for the mutual benefit of both nations.

[JuniperLea]

143. That's not how I remember it

If they were merely tolerated as an underclass, then how did they amass fortunes in money, art, silver, etc., for the Nazi's to steal?

Lynndie England obeyed orders, not laws... you keep mixing apples and oranges!


Right, everyone wants to move on when they think they've had the last word...



Not too many years ago I donated a transcript to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles... It was the account of a friend of my grandmother... a woman who was sent to Auschwitz as a teen... I remember seeing the numbers on her forearms... and I remember her recounting the "good days" before Hitler took over Germany... how she and her Jewish family and friends were respected craftsmen, doctors, musicians, artists, etc... and how the Nazis stole their family fortune...


I think perhaps it is you who needs to re-read a little history.


http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242023

[Cleita]

146. See my post #145. n/t

[JuniperLea]

144. This is how I remember it.... Not an underclass at all according to Jewish

History...


snip...

The Jews of Germany were by now an overwhelmingly urban, professional class. Many of them took part in the German revolution of 1848, and in the resulting Frankfort parliament. The "Basic Laws of the German People" advanced by the parliament reinforced that Jews were citizens in full, regardless of their religious leanings. In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, anti-Semitism became more visible, and even manifested itself in politics, but was dismissed by the urbane, assimilated Jews as merely a passing social phenomenon. The anti-Semitism became more pronounced in the aftermath of World War I in Weimar Germany. For the most part, however, the prosperity and legal equality of the Jews continued unabated until Hitler's rise to power in 1933, and the legal discrimination and violence that ensued.




http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/germany.html


Oh, but I'm sure you won't respond to this... you've moved on;)

[Cleita]

147. See my post #145 n/t

[JuniperLea]

149. So, you are going to believe a "book" over Jewish historical records? n/t

[Cleita]

152. Well, considering that this book is considered the ultimate

historical record of the Third Reich even though it was written thirty years ago, yes.

[JuniperLea]

154. Well, believe the Nazis if you want... I'll stick to the Jewish historians

"The book is based largely on the captured documents of the Third Reich, including the diaries of propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels and General Franz Halder"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich

[Cleita]

157. Whatever, I guess since the source documents are so unreliable to

you, believe what you like. I'm done with you because you just want to argue not learn.

[JuniperLea]

159. Actually, I could say the same about you n/t

[Cleita]

145. From "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".

But aside from history, where did Hitler get his ideas? Though his opponents inside and outside of Germany were too busy, or too stupid, to take much notice of it until it was too late, he had somehow absorbed, as had so many Germans, a weird mixture of the irresponsible, megalomaniacal ideas which erupted from German thinkers during the nineteenth century.

We have seen what they were as they thrashed about in Hitler's mind: the glorification of war and conquest and the absolute power of the authoritarian state; the belief in the Aryans, or Germans as the master race, and the hatred of Jews and Slavs; this contempt for democracy and humanism. They are not original with Hitler--though the means of applying them later proved to be. They emanate from that odd assortment of erudite but unbalanced philosophers, historians and teachers who captured the German mind during the century before Hitler with consequences so disastrous, as it turned out, not only for Germans but for a large portion of mankind

Now I live with this everyday. Every day when I go out and when I come to DU I know there are people who hate me just because of whom I am and no other reason. I am an underclass in this country and the Jews in Germany were no different.

Now I'm not going to print the whole book out for you but it goes into detail about how the Jews at first weren't considered to be German by common German thinking and how this escalated into making a whole demographic of people illegal under Hitler.

[JuniperLea]

148. Interesting...

The Jewish history sites I've read say the opposite... that the Jews were upper class and wealthy for the most part before Hitler took over. That is how I heard it from an Auschwitz survivor who told me the Nazis stole her family fortune...

[Cleita]

150. That's because in medieval Europe the Jews became the

bankers as Christians weren't really allowed to lend money. So this made them wealthy. Also, the Jews were always adamant about educating their children, which is why there were so many doctors and lawyers. Yet they weren't welcome socially in many venues. The wealth they acquired is what made Hitler and the German people at large resent them. It took very little prodding from the Third Reich to get the Germans take everything away from them.

[JuniperLea]

153. That's not the history I heard!

I heard from people who were there at the time, that what hurt most was being snubbed by society AFTER Hitler and the Nazis took over... I'm going to the source tonight... a friend who is a Cantor and another who teaches in a synagogue, the latter helped run the underground through Holland to get Jews out of Europe... From what she has told me in the past, her family was as upper-crusty as it got in Germany.

[Cleita]

155. I'm sure that everybody has their individual memories and

having known many Germans from post war days, I found that their memories got pretty selective. "Oh, no ve never knew vat vas happening." Oh, sure your neighbors disappear overnight never to be seen again were just everyday occurrences.

However, I'm not basing my position on ancedotes but what is considered a very reliable historical reference by an American correspondent and journalist, William L. Shirer, who lived in Germany from the time of the Weimar Republic up until WWII started when he had to leave Berlin. Not only is his history from his own astute observations but an impressive bibliography of research and documents from the Third Reich that he was allowed to access once the Nazis were out of power.

[JuniperLea]

160. So, Simon Wiesenthal's records don't count huh? n/t

[JuniperLea]

151. Sorry, I call bullshit

If you are an underclass it is merely something you brought on yourself. I've worked for two Jewish billionaires (yes, with a B) and and many more Jewish millionaires... I have far too many Jewish friends that are far better off socially and economically than I am to believe you. One of my best friends is a Cantor... and another teaches at her local synagogue... I'm sure they will laugh me off, but I'm going to ask them how they feel about themselves in this context.

Sorry... just smacks of BS to me!

[Cleita]

156. Well, if you want to call a respected journalist and

correspondent who lived in Nazi Germany through the days of the Weimar Republic, the Nazi state up until he had to leave Berlin before the war BS, I guess you wouldn't be interested in anyone's facts but your own. Yep, just fit the facts to your fantasy.

[JuniperLea]

161. Right... I'll go you one better

I'll tell my friends at the Simon Weisenthal Center they need to rethink their history... seems they have been wasting too much time trying to get things back for the Jews that the Nazis stole... and all those fancy invitations to fancy balls I gave them for their archives must be my fantasy too...

[JuniperLea]

162. This is one of the men I from whom I learned the truth...

http://www.humboldt.edu/~rescuers/book/Bochove/bcontents.html

[Bridget Burke]

12. Nobody can be arrested for association....

Drug dealers get busted because they get fooled by a narc. Or just for possession....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. There are "legalize pot" demonstrations all the time.

With people smoking pot openly and in public, and certainly dealing going on.

God bless them.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mshasta]

5. The democratic party needs the Hispanic vote?

[texasleo]

6. librul meedia

x(

[Bridget Burke]

7. Not everyone marching will be illegal.

In fact, some are native born citizens.

The question should be: "Should we just round up the people with brown skin?"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. What a disgusting question.

Should people have a right to peaceably assemble and voice their opinions?

[rodeodance]

19. after you vote-scroll down and send them your comments. I did.

[LisaM]

11. Why? So immigrants and workers can feel too threatened to demonstrate?

These rallies are, as far as I know, all being done peacefully and with legal permits, so it would be pretty un-American to throw out a dragnet.

[SidDithers]

14. How would illegals be identified?...

Unless a protester was wearing a big sign that said "I'm here illegally", how do you go about identifying illegals?

"Ve must see your paperz!"

Sid

[Telly Savalas]

124. It would be nice if someone who supports arrests would answer

your question.

[fasttense]

16. This question is just begging for an emotional, ill considered response

MSNBC seems to be into hate mongering.

[Cleita]

17. Who thought that little racist poll up?

If they are doing something illegal like throwing rocks, of course they should be arrested. However, arresting someone because they are exercising their rights to free speech shouldn't even be an issue to be polled. A guess a lot of Americans, including the guy who wrote the poll, seems to think that the right to free speech is only for an acceptable demography, not everyone in the whole damn world, which it is.

On edit: They have a commentary place on this poll, so I gave them a chunk of my mind.

[Egalitariat]

70. Something illegal like throwing rocks? Isn't being an "illegal immigrant"

illegal?

[Cleita]

82. So you want to arrest everyone who is exercising their right to

free speech? Or, are we going back to the old segregationist ways of the south where only some people had free speech and blacks didn't? Also, many of the people marching are legal immigrants many of them born Americans. Should they be arrested for exercising their right to free speech?

You can't arrest people who are not committing a crime.
There are no illegal people incidentally. There are people who crossed the border illegally. If the immigration wants to raid a work place and arrest them for working illegally that can be done, but you can't arrest people for marching peacefully and legally. As a matter-of-fact by not going to work they are perfectly legal.

You have a strange user name for someone who wants to practice selective equality.

[Egalitariat]

91. Being in the country illegally is illegal. Nobody has the right to be in

the country illegally.

I would only advocate arresting people who are breaking the law. The legal immigrants you mentioned aren't breaking the law.

Your argument that they are exercising their right to free speech, and therefore are not arrestable, is a non-starter. Exercising a right, any right, does not grant you immunity from being arrested for committing a separate crime.

According to your theory, If I've been embezzling money from my employer, and I'm about to get caught, all I have to do is exercise my freedom of religion -- and I can't be arrested, because I'm exercising a right.

[JuniperLea]

116. Where do you find in our constitution that anyone other than citizens

Have any rights at all?

I'm just asking... I haven't really made up my mind on this one yet.

[Cleita]

127. The Constitution was written for the land owners of those times

who were also slave owners. However, many intepretations by the court systems since then have solidified a lot of the concepts. In the protests of the sixties much of the ideals of free speech, demonstrations and other First Ammendment issues were written into something understandable for everyone.

[JuniperLea]

133. I understand that, but...

It still doesn't address the fact that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are all written expressly for and about citizens of the US.

We can't cherry pick which laws we want to uphold and which we want to ignore.

[Cleita]

134. No it wasn't written exclusively for the citizens of the US.

If it were, then residents, but not citizens, would have no rights or laws covering them whatsoever. They would be living in anarchy in your country. I don't think anyone wants that. Also, by your definition, our laws and Constitution wouldn't cover them and therefore they wouldn't be illegal because our laws don't apply to them. Huh?

[JuniperLea]

136. Nope... you just don't get it

It's like saying that the Pilgrims were illegal immigrants, when in fact, they broke no laws (because there were no laws to be broken) so they can't be termed illegal.

As soon as there were laws to dictate immigration and immigrants, all other laws governing "the people" were strictly for citizens.

[Cleita]

139. The law about entering this country without papers is a misdemeanor.

The reason the hispanic communities are protesting is because they are trying to make this a felony. It's wrong and immoral anyway you look at it.

[acmavm]

18. 12:47 p.m. CST

Immigration Protests: Should illegal immigrants be arrested at today's demonstrations? * 9029 responses
Yes
68% No
32%

[rodeodance]

21. send msnbc your comments (on the same page -results page).

[GRLMGC]

20. How would they know?

Plenty of resident aliens and citizens will be marching too. So, anyone who looks foreign? Will they demand to see papers?

[rodeodance]

k

[SlipperySlope]

24. They should have been arrested BEFORE these demonstrations.

Arresting them today is better than nothing, but it is a little too late.

[Solon]

29. So, all Latinos are to be arrested on sight now?

What type of RACIST BULLSHIT IS THIS????

[Bridget Burke]

30. And deport them if they don't have green cards!

Of course, that would mean that a lot of Born In The USA Citizens would be deported. But they aren't white....

[Ms. Clio]

40. What a crock of shit

I knew this thread would draw them out, like big nasty horseflies.

[eleny]

25. Only if they want bloody rioting to break out

That would be the stupidest thing the government could do today.

[Kansas Wyatt]

26. Perfect opportunity for INS to round up & deport

Thousands of ILLEGAL workers undercutting wages and destroying Working Class Citizens.

Another perfect opportunity for INS to levy fines against Corporations who shut down their business to support the protest. Since they don't have a busy day, INS could take that opportunity to check their paperwork to make sure they are not employing illegal workers.

Hmm, corporation shuts down to support illegal immigration protest or is afraid too many will be absent... Not hard to figure out who exactly is employing illegal workers. Perhaps the INS should make a note of that and investigate. Hello INS?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kansas Wyatt]

53. So you want to call me a RACIST

Don't you?

Why don't you tell me why you HATE the Working Class?

Why do you support Corporate America destroying the Working Class?

Give up your lot in life, give up your future employment opportunities, give up a trade that has been handed down to you and you have supported yourself with, give up your ability to support yourself and your family like your fathers and grandfathers did, and give up your economic future and ability to survive first, then you can call anyone who encourages rounding up ILLEGAL WORKERS and deporting them a racist. After all, you would actually have some credibility on the issue then.

[Solon]

54. Hey, I came up with a solution, you just want a scapegoat...

Its your call:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

At least I know what I'm talking about, instead of just blowing hot air like some would.

[Kansas Wyatt]

56. Too late, you already fucked yourself

With your racist accusation!

Just because I think the existing law should be enforced (better late and massive than never), that does not make me a racist. Blow your hot RACIST ACCUSING air up someone else's ass.

[Solon]

58. Your the one that called for the round up of people with brown skin just..

by association, I think that you are the one who needs to take a good hard look at what you just said. But then again, maybe introspection isn't exactly something you are good at, I just call them as I see them.

[Ms. Clio]

62. I read it pretty much like you did

The implication was that everyone who would be demonstrating today is an "illegal" -- no clue that many of those participating will be legal residents and the relatives and friends of "illegals." So what would such a "round up" entail? Forcing all the marchers into a detainment area of some kind, then checking their "papers?"

Then what? Going to tear mommy or daddy away from their screaming kids? Or maybe just lump all the kids in with mom and dad, whether they are citizens or not, and ship them off to Mexico. It has happened before, in U.S. history, and those episodes are a stain on our nation.

I mean, do people really think these things through?

[Solon]

63. No they don't they are superficial thinkers...

Over simplistic and with too much emotion tied in, so they become irrational and lash out at the most VISIBLE thing that they can blame for their troubles, yesterday it was Arabs, today Latinos, Tomorrow it will probably be the Chinese, whatever, in all cases it was WRONG and only hid the real problem, that is actually out of sight. That of the rich fat cats in their black suits, pale skin, and big fatassed cigars who REALLY run things around here and laugh at us poor working slobs who fight amongst ourselves because we never realize our own power. That power is the power of numbers, we outnumber them by at least 10 to 1, and if we got together, THEY are the ones who would hang on lamposts.

[Ms. Clio]

68. Short, sweet, and to the point -- I wish everyone would read your post

Quoting Ben Franklin: We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

[Solon]

69. People prefer scapegoating, its easier on the two brain cells they...

have left. Gods forbid they actually have to look at a problem from more than one angle, or think of comprehensive solutions. We live in a soundbite nation, and we are all sorrier because of it. Hell, I think even places like DU don't help much, simply provides different soundbites to the ones that the M$M provide.

[Ms. Clio]

80. It's discouraging sometimes, especially because it's such an old story

Divide and conquer. I am actually fascinated by some of the anti-immigrant posts because they echo with almost eerie familiarity the laments of the 19th century skilled worker, desperately trying to guard his job and his turf against the encroachments of mechanization and the unskilled, black, foreign-born, or female workers who were providing the cheap labor to the new factories.

I do think places like DU can help, if only to provide a place where different soundbites can be aired than anyone will ever hear on Faux -- but I wish there was more understanding of the the entire dimensions of this issue, and discussion of rational and humane solutions.

[Bridget Burke]

72. Well--most of the demonstrators have brown skin....

Legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, native born US citizens. Round them all up for having brown skin.

Then whine when someone says RACIST.

[Ms. Clio]

84. Honest to god, it freaks me out

I think many of these people are from the North, and just have no effin clue about the Southwest.

[Solon]

96. Hell, I'm from Missouri, not exactly the Southwest, though close enough...

I guess. Actually, my town was named after San Carlos Borromeo, of course, after the Louisiana Purchase the name was changed to Saint Charles. But anyways, funny story to tell. OK, a few years ago I was working as an Ice Cream man in my area, so I go through a neighborhood I go through everyday, mainly because of the Puerto Rican family that lives on the street, its Upper Middle class neighborhood, and no one else buys ice cream for their kids, usually. Anyways, so I stop in front of their house, they get some ice cream, I shoot the breeze for about 3 or four minutes with them like I do every other day, and then I proceed up the street. For once, a white guy and his daughter stop me, about half a block up the street, and he askes if I serve those immigrants down the street, I really didn't want to lay into him, but I was a sub-contractor and thought: "What the hell", now it was polite, no bad language, kid present after all, but I did point out to him that if he actually took the time to KNOW his own neighbors he would know that they were NATURAL BORN CITIZENS, and to not assume anything about them. I really hate ignorance from these types of people.

[Ms. Clio]

100. Well, to be sure, I'm in Dallas, and lots of Anglos in north Texas

do the exact same thing, and they really do know better, I think.

Glad you took the trouble to point that out to him -- I hope it sunk in.

[Solon]

105. I'm not Anglo myself, I'm a Mick, or a Mickey Mouse as some say...

Though I'm white, I will say that much, so I heard it all, learned to be disgusted at the attitudes of White People in general for a long time. I was "insulated" from such racist attitudes by my parents and friends, probably because, while I lived in a county that was and still is like 98% white, all my friends weren't white. This is true growing up and today, just one of those things that's a mystery to others. First Girlfriend was a Native American, Childhood to Middle School best friends were black and Philipino, we were the "hellraiser trio" of the neighborhood. In highschool, one of my buddies was an Indian exchange student, in college I hung out with a Thai Buddhist, etc. Don't ask me why this is, I really don't know, never sought people of such varied backgrounds out, just was raised that way, I guess, plus, lately, I have been turned off by white people in general, I know it sounds bad, but anytime I had to hang out with a strictly white crowd, someone says something racist that pisses me off. Guess someone raised me right, and now I avoid them to avoid fights.

[Ms. Clio]

107. Anglo is just a generic term for non-Hispanic white

Sounds like you had a very cool upbringing -- everyone should be so lucky. And anyone who doesn't believe that racism is alive and well (like new WH press secretary Tony Snow) is just completely blinkered to reality. I must say, though, that I also never was really exposed to any of it until I moved from the Midwest to Texas.

[Solon]

108. Sorry being called an Anglo can be considered a mighty insult to us Irish.

Though I know you didn't mean any offense.

[Ms. Clio]

110. Ack! I certainly did not!

You haven't heard it used in Missouri? I guess it's really a SW term.

[Solon]

115. No, Anglo-American discrimination against Irish I have heard of...

Don't get too worked up over it, of the Latinos I did know, I never was really called anything besides my name, I learned about the term Gringo in movies, oddly enough that Keanu Reeves movie at that. Forgot the name, a Romantic "Chic Flick", don't ask me why I watch those, I'm a sucker for them. Well, also the Cheech and Chong movies too, but that is another subject entirely. :)

Come to think of it, one of my other favorite movies of all time is "Born in East L.A.", that would be topical today, would it not? :)

[Ms. Clio]

118. I've never actually seen a Cheech and Chong movie, a very strange gap

in my education. ;)

And I've never seen "Born in East L.A.," either, but it sounds topical. :)

I saw some video of the Dallas rallies while DU was down -- too funny, there was ONE middle-aged white guy counter-demonstrating with a handmade sign that said something about Mexicans who "sneek" into this country.

Wow, that is series!!1!!11

[Solon]

120. Born in East L.A. is funny as all hell...

I'll give you a brief synopsis, OK, Chong plays in it, and he is a born and bred American, doesn't even know Spanish, that type of thing. Anyways, he went to Mexico to get his cousin who was visiting for a week or so. Wires got crossed in the family, and his cousin FLEW into the country and shows up at his house at about the same time he is in Mexico. Finds out his cousin is at his house, and let's just say he was stopped at the border cause the border patrol mistakes him for a previously caught illegal. Funny movie, you should watch it.

[Ms. Clio]

121. Definitely topical!

Thanks for the synopsis, I really need to watch it. And how disgusting that Tommy Chong was completely fucked over for selling paraphernalia, while doctor-shopping, prescription-fraudster Limbaugh gets off without a day in jail?

[Kansas Wyatt]

90. You are a LIAR, read the post asshole!

I never posted "round up of people with brown skin"

Now did I?

I do not give a shit if the ILLEGAL WORKERS they round up are WHITE, black, brown, yellow, or green. Any ILLEGAL WORKERS who want to organize themselves into a massive protest, should face the LAW that they chose to break a long time ago and I do not give a shit about their skin color. I called for the LAW, that illegals IGNORE, to be carried out and FORCEFULLY against those (Employers & Corps) who hire ILLEGAL WORKERS. Illegal immigrants knew they risked being deported when they came here and remained, so they have already made that call for themselves. FACT!

Why did you delete your trash you posted from a White Racist Site, when you accused me of being RACIST?

[Solon]

97. I didn't delete it...

It was alerted upon, so the mods deleted it, I still say you belong there, and your personal attacks are unbecoming, please, be reasonable for once, you know what you meant, after all, how else would the police be able to tell "true blood" Americans from those "damned Illegals"?

[Kansas Wyatt]

103. You have the nerve call me a racist

By saying illegal workers should be deported as per the law and penalties for those who employ illegal workers, and then you claim that I am attacking you. Oh, that's rich.

Simple fact, any white, yellow, brown, green, or purple person demanding his personal illegal status be rewarded, would be very obvious for anybody enforcing the law. Simple fact. Uh oh, better put blindfolds on the INS agents, so they are not accused of being racist by you. Sure that's more reasonable.

I told you at the beginning that you lost an opportunity to redeem yourself and your belittlement.

[Solon]

106. You didn't say that...

You said:

Perfect opportunity for INS to round up & deport thousands of ILLEGAL workers undercutting wages and destroying Working Class Citizens.

Now, I may be wrong, however, I would say this was a generalization either based on the color of these people's skin or their national origin, in either case, you never bothered to consider that many, perhaps even most, of these protestors are either citizens or here legally. Given this, you endorse racial profiling, which, by its very nature is racist, so there goes your objection to being called a racist.

[Kansas Wyatt]

122. HELLO? Earth to racist labeler

Thousands of - any damn color you want to insert, including European descent (white) - are proudly stating 'I am an illegal immigrant and I demand that I am staying for the work, citizenship, and/or legal status' are congregated in certain spots. People's skin color is only an issue with those who want to make this a race issue, and I do not give a damn if they are black, blue, WHITE, brown, purple, or green. By your logic, escaped convict skinheads holding a Klan rally, should be ignored and left alone. I would say that the escaped convict skinheads should be hauled back to prison ASAP and preferably before their rally, in accordance with the law. Yet allowing the rally is more important, by your superior logic.

IT WOULD BE A - Perfect opportunity for INS to round up & deport thousands of ILLEGAL workers undercutting wages and destroying Working Class Citizens.

Apparently you hate Working Class Citizens, or the Working Class, or maybe you just hate Citizens. I do not give a shit why, I only would like to see INS round up illegal workers and deport them, since the illegal workers have already agreed to this condition when they illegally entered or stayed in this country, and have violated the law ever since (document and employment fraud). Fact, they knew the consequences in the first place and the U.S. Government NEVER granted them immunity from immigration and employment laws.

I would most like to see employers and corporations, who employ illegal workers, massively fined for employing illegal workers. With a three strikes rule, where the business or corporation, and it's assets, are seized and sold by the Feds. All fines and the proceeds from the seized businesses and it's assets would be deposited into an Extended Unemployment Fund for Citizens that the illegal worker practice harms. Naturally, extra deportations would not be necessary over what the existing laws are (what should have been enforced anyway), since illegals would no longer be able to undercut and destroy employment fields for Working Class Americans. A lot of illegals would just have to return to THEIR country on their own like they illegally came in, since they would not be able to get any work anymore. Employers and corporations would no longer risk the massive fines and potentially losing all of their assets, just to screw the blue collar workers, when the blue collar workers would receive it all in the end anyway.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. How could he have fucked himself?

When the accusation is pretty apparent?

[EFerrari]

73. Why do YOU hate the working class?

Maybe those people shouldn't march but instead, protest the idiots who allowed the American government to pass NAFTA -- a policy that drove these workers out of their decimated economy and out of the homes they loved to come here to Bushworld.

The idiots who allowed NAFTA -- forcing these workers to give up their lot in life, give up their future employment opportunities, give up a trade that has been handed down to them and one they have supported themselves with, to give up their ability to support their family like their fathers and grandfathers did.

[Ms. Clio]

41. Maybe you better start whining to the IRS, too

which takes taxes from those "illegals" who pay them, and does not report them to the INS.

What an outrage, eh? The nerve of those people, paying taxes!

[Kansas Wyatt]

92. Perhaps the IRS

Can hit you with fines and penalties for failing to report the income you made on your stolen tax number with maximum dependents claimed. No, it's all good, just pay it for your cause.

[Ms. Clio]

94. "Those dependents," if claimed, are probably children and citizens

So why aren't they entitled to the same consideration under the tax laws as any other American child?

And you misunderstand -- they are not "stolen tax numbers." They are legal Taxpayer ID Nos. issued by the IRS.

But really, you don't make very much sense here -- "just pay it for your cause???" Okee.

[Kansas Wyatt]

99. So now you claim

That even though the Government does not know exactly how many illegal workers are out there, they do really know because all of those illegals have issued the proper id numbers by the IRS.

Sure, and all us poor working class folk have the ILLEGAL WORKERS to thank for such a wonderful life under this official illegal worker documentation that the government keeps track of illegal workers paying our taxes.

As for you question, they broke the law by illegally entering or staying, intead of following the law to begin with. You will never change that fact, and right a wrong with another wrong.

'just pay it for your cause' - Some illegal workers would love to have a Social Security number to use for employment, give it to them. You can handle paying the increased income taxes that will be due from you.

[Ms. Clio]

101. Look, I'm just telling you that if an "illegal immigrant"

applies for a Taxpayer ID No., the IRS will issue it to him or her, and will not share that information with the INS. While I get mightily tired of doing everyone's research for them, just see this article: "Here Illegally, but Choosing to Pay Taxes."

Note the relevant paragraphs:

Some illegal immigrants have long paid taxes through special identification numbers issued by the Internal Revenue Service for people who are not eligible for Social Security numbers — whether out of a sense of duty or hope for eventual citizenship.

(snip)

Illegal immigrants can file taxes by applying for an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN, designed for foreigners living here legally but now widely used by illegal immigrants. Last year, the Internal Revenue Service issued an estimated 1.2 million tax identification numbers — the vast majority of which ended up on tax returns, up from roughly 838,000 issued in 2004.

The IRS, which has issued more than 9.2 million tax identification numbers since 1996, does not ask whether immigrants are legal. "Our job is to make sure that everyone who earns income within our borders pays the proper amount of taxes, even if they may not be working here legally," IRS Commissioner Mark W. Everson said in an e-mail.


Oh, and did you know the Social Security Administration is holding $7 billion dollars in funds withheld from "illegals'" paychecks? Really, your last sentence continues to make no sense. If 12 million people suddenly started paying income taxes and SS taxes, how would that hurt me?

And I wonder how many laws you "break" every day, hmmmm? Jaywalk? Speed? Run through a yellow -- oops -- red light? Park in a no-parking zone?

[Kansas Wyatt]

123. Oh, I see your authority on the subject now.

The Federal Government knows that all illegal (gee, where did that term come from) workers pay all of their taxes, never steal identities, never use some unsuspecting victim's Social Security number (which is linked to income reported to the IRS), never take out loans in some unsuspecting citizen's name and ruin their credit, pay taxes for lazy ass Americans who do not, are granted immunity to work at will just to pay for some lazy ass American's payroll tax, never undercut and take work from unemployed citizens, and make the entire United States actually able to pay for everything.

And the Federal Government claims it doesn't really know how many are really here, and where they are. That tricky Federal Government lying to everyone and victims of identity fraud.

Whatever :rofl:

What? Social Security is actually holding $7 Billion dollars of illegal worker's money. By all means, let them have it. They do have proof they are the ones who actually contributed the money without any fraud involved, don't they? Well let them have it then.

If 12 million suddenly started using your Social Security number and paying the least amount possible of payroll and income taxes, you would definately end up drawing the maximum benefit (and no more) when you retire. However, the IRS would like to audit you for the rest of your life, and you had better be able to prove you did not earn those millions of dollars. Got a lawyer yet? That could be costly, and a lawyer might be able to help with all of those creditors coming after you for unpaid bills attached to your Social Security number. Good luck without the bankruptcy laws being a way out anymore, and there goes that maximum benefit from Social Security, since the IRS will be taking all but the bare minimum. But what the hell, you don't mind going through a living hell and really paying for your cause of granting all illegals legal status or illegal workers continuing to undercut and destroy Working Class Citizens.

Sorry to disappoint you, I didn't break any laws today. Nor do I advocate for millions of people to BREAK and ignore immigration and employment laws, like you do.

[Ms. Clio]

126. First you denied that it ever happened at all

Clearly facts just send you into an even greater incoherent rage. Now you are trying to conflate legal taxypayers with those who commit all manner of fraud and crimes.

Nobody said anything about 12 million people using my SS number or anyone else's, either. I mentioned the possibility of 12 million people with legal SS numbers, paying into the fund that takes care of all of us. The rest of what you are ranting about there is just wacky.

Yeah, I'm sure you never broke any law in your life, ever. What a steaming pile. Do you smoke? Ever buy cigarettes when you were underage? How about a little beer before you turned 21?

Again, why don't you start ranting to the IRS about breaking and ignoring immigration and employment laws? Instead, you just respond with spittle-flecked incomprehensible screeds about stolen SS numbers.

[Kansas Wyatt]

129. I'm not the one advocating

For ILLEGAL WORKERS violating the law, by entering illegally in the first place. I'm not the one advocating for ILLEGAL WORKERS continuing to violate the law by staying, along with committing FRAUD when bogus and stolen Social Security numbers are used for employment and credit purposes.

That is your logic.

By the way, I told you to give back what they have paid in Social Security, didn't I? You do have proof of who paid what don't you? Working Class Citizens did not make the laws and rules, they are only forced to abide by them and provide the proper proof, themselves. So what are you saying, illegal workers should not have to provide any proof because they are better than Working Class Citizens?

No, I did not illegally violate a foreign country's immigration laws, nor did I steal someone's identity, nor did I work on someone else's Social Security number and claim the maximum dependents, nor did I ever claim to be another on credit documents, nor do I claim any bogus status on any documentation, nor do I demand that I should not be penalized for breaking the law etc. etc. etc.

I am responsible for any laws that I may violate, and I expect to be penalized, as prescribed by the law. I do not cry and whine about how laws do not apply to me, and how they should never apply to my group. Nor, do I expect and demand that I should not be held accountable for breaking any law.

List all of the other options available to the illegal workers you are advocating for, besides stealing Social Security numbers and identities. Those who DO NOT have any legal status. No really, please list ALL other options besides stealing Social Security numbers, so we can discuss the merits of your argument.

Or, would you just rather I not write about stolen Social Security numbers that illegal workers may or may not be using (oops, did I give too much info)?

Okay, are they just working for cash under the table, if they are not using stolen Social Security numbers?

Does the Federal Government grant "Special Illegal Worker Social Security" numbers for them to use, and does 'Boss Man' get those applications filled out right for them?

[Ms. Clio]

131. christ, what a waste of time this is

Can you READ?

I posted excerpts from an article in the LA Times, including a comment by an IRS official, which indicates that the IRS has 9.3 million illegal immmigrants using Taxpayer ID numbers since 1996. If you are incapable of understanding 3 very simple and easy to read paragraphs, then I don't think you are capable of carrying on an informed conversation on this or any other grown-up subject.

SOME illegal immigrants GET LEGAL TAXPAYER ID NUMBERS FROM THE GOVERNMENT. I don't know what part of that is so hard to understand. And the IRS does not report them to the INS. Those are the FACTS. Deal with it.

I am not discussing fake or stolen SS numbers, so drop that ridiculous strawman.

BTW, you seem to have no figures, no links, no facts whatsoever.

[Kansas Wyatt]

132. You tell me that there are 9.3 million illegals who do pay taxes

The government knows where they are and that they are illegal, and then claim that I throw up a "ridiculous strawman."

I asked you to list the other ways they are able to get around the paperwork and taxes, yet you failed to list them. Remember, 'no really tell me.' BTW, you seem to have no figures, no links, no facts whatsoever about the questions that I asked you to provide to support your position.

Now, how many fake and stolen Social Security numbers are being used by illegal workers to defraud the U.S. and unsuspecting individuals?

Do those illegals use the fake and stolen Social Security numbers on credit applications also?

Really, how widespread is this problem, and how many honest hardworking citizens do not know their Social Security numbers are being used by illegal workers to defraud the system and their credit?

Don't you agree the Federal Government needs to do a very detailed study to find out exactly how much damage illegal workers really do to the American citizens and society?

[jeffrey_X]

76. You are going to inspect more than 300,000 people just in Chicago???

If you shipped out every single illegal, certain industries in this country would shut down.

[rodeodance]

27. * 9399 responses Yes 68%

Immigration Protests: Should illegal immigrants be arrested at today's demonstrations? * 9399 responses
Yes68% No
32%

[Xenotime]

28. Absolutely not.

They have rights just like everyone else. You would have to arrest them all.

[Casandra]

33. My take

I find this a lot like those wonderful (not) people who voted for Bush's second term. They are getting exactly what they deserve. Unfortunately those of us who are not so easily fooled, are having to suffer the consequences too!!

These immigrants, were they to leave or be shipped out of this country, would produce a huge gaping hole in our produce and hospitality 'economy'. Those who want them out, at any cost, would begin very early on to feel the pinch, especially at the supermarket.. They would get what they deserve, while the rest of us who are more 'enlightened' would also have to pay the price!

Gotta find a way to 'simply' legalize these people, and allow them to work here, and if they like, form new and better lives.

My opinion

[undeterred]

34. I just came home from the Madison rally

Not as big as the one a few weeks ago, but still a decent turnout.

I am not Hispanic, but my sign "deporte a Sensenbrenner" was appreciated by those who know who Sensenbrenner is.

There were some people dressed in cow suits who were chanting "We're from Wisconsin too!"

A few anti immigration folks in the area (maybe 4-5) who had a sign which said "arrest illegals" but they were basically ignored.

It was moving for me. People were chanting "This is what Democracy looks like" and "This is what America looks like".

[suffragette]

37. Fantastic sign, undeterred

:yourock:

[undeterred]

55. thanks!

It made the news and a ton of people took pictures!

I'm working for Sensenbrenner's opponent, of course!

[suffragette]

78. Thank you for this

The sooner Sensenbrenner is ousted, the better for all of us.

[moondust]

39. Arrest their slave-trading employers.

The illegals have no rights and their employers know that they won't question anything for fear of deportation. Who needs bullwhips?

[MercutioATC]

45. Well, maybe just fine the piss out of them.

As far as I'm concerned that's where it should start, the employers.

[benburch]

46. Anybody who answered YES hates Liberty.

The New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

[Robbie Michaels]

49. You Nailed It!

:applause:

[benburch]

52. I thought I had already posted that in this thread...

but it must have been a different one.

Thanks for your vote of confidence!

[Atman]

79. BULLSHIT.

A guy on CSPAN this morning said there should be exceptions for "these people" because they're just trying to support their families. How can you fault them, he said, for BREAKING THE LAW because they wanted to give their families a better life?

So then, where do you draw the line IN COURT? At the guy who holds up the liquor store for rent money so his family isn't tossed out onto the street? At the guy who steels huggies and Enfamil? Or maybe ME when I burn down my neighbor's house because they're fucking inconsiderate fuckwads who won't turn the music down and leave their kids' toys in my driveway, and have furniture in their front lawn, and the police won't do anything about it...maybe I just want to break the law to "provide a better life for my family."

Fuck that. Ronnie Raygun already PROVED what happens when amnesty is granted to ILLEGAL immigrants. And amnesty by any other name is still amnesty. But this time instead of 20 million immigrants, it will 50 million...and we'll all be scratching our asses, wondering why we can't get jobs that pay more than five bucks an hour. This is fucking lunacy.

[Solon]

98. Who said anything about Amnesty?

First, while the demonstrations are dominated by Latinos, that doesn't necessarily translate into all or even most of them being illegal, so the "round them up" crowd sound faintly racist. Besides which, your examples are strawmen, one is a violent felony, the other is felony arson, false comparisons to begin with. Hello, its called prportional justice, no cruel nor unusual punishment, its somewhere in the Constitution, and oddly enough, its a right not limited to just citizens. Look, I don't like the idea of illegals being here either, though I think of all sides, the Americans that lose jobs, and the Illegals that are exploited due to being completely at the mercy of their employers. But rounding them up and deporting them will be just as effective as throwing pot smokers in jail, it will last years, waste billions of dollars in the process, and we still wouldn't solve the source of the problem. Be reasonable, not irrational in this.

[ComerPerro]

47. arrested for what? Being illegal? How will they find illegals?

Are cops gonna just show up and demand to see ID?

I'd tell them to fuck off.

[El Fuego]

74. Should they be cited for driving there without a license?

Or insurance? Or a valid vehicle registration?

[Solon]

75. How about jaywalking, that's always popular with the stick up the butt...

police, isn't it?

[Ms. Clio]

93. and maybe an underage kid smoked a cigarette on the way

omg, the mighty majesty of THE LAW has been forever defiled.

[Atman]

77. The republicans keep saying "how would we round them all up?"

WELL, HERE THEY ARE! ROUND 'EM UP, MOVE 'EM OUT!

[Ms. Clio]

85. Deep

The Repubs would just as soon do that to you, too.

[Atman]

87. Yup, I agree!

I don't necessarily agree with everything I post. But I post it just the same.

But still...this discussion should not be allowed to continue (and by "allowed," I mean in an abstract sense, not here on DU) without discussing the meaning of ILLEGAL.

[Ms. Clio]

95. I think the discussion really should start with the historical

and cultural realities of the U.S. Southwest and the economic realities of globalization.

Maybe unless you've lived in a border city, like El Paso, it's almost impossible to understand how artificial "the border" truly is.

[Atman]

102. I don't care about how "artificial" the border is.

Start cracking down on the companies that profit from the illegal aliens. I actually don't have a problem with the people who are looking for better lives for their families. It's a natural thing to do. But if the CORPORATIONS were telling them "Hey, first you have to get a work visa, and/or gain your American citizenship" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But that's not the case. The corporations ignore it because they PROFIT from the law-breaking.

So do drug dealers.

So do pimps.

So do mobsters.

Take out the profit motive and you can at least begin to eliminate the criminality.

[Ms. Clio]

104. Okay, I see that point

But we also need to see the bigger picture -- insourcing in the form of H-1B visas is far more threatening to middle class workers. And those quotas quietly get upped while all the xenophobes focus on the brown hordes from beyond the border.

[ieoeja]

81. I will tell you why not.

First, you must remember that the vast majority of those demonstrating are legal. Which ones are you going to target? And on what constitutionally sound pretext?

Second, asking a few dozen INS officials to arrest an illegal alien surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating in opposition to the arrest of illegal aliens is asking a whole lot of that INS official. Any INS official with half a brain is far more likely to hand Mr. Politician his badge and say, "if you want to arrest them so God damned bad, YOU do it. I ain't that fucking stupid."

[ieoeja]

83. And for grins I'll tell you why "yes".

The only way you could do it is to bring in the military and set up a mass temporary detention camp to hold the hundreds of thousands of demonstrators (or millions, if you want to target all the marches and not just one city's). And nothing like seeing the US military descending on the citizens of US cities then the sight of these people locked up behind barbed wire for a few months to create sympathy.

[pinto]

86. Wow. What an obviously leading and inflammatory poll. Someone at MSNBC

should've thought twice.

[bigwillq]

88. Done (nt)

[mdmc]

89. no

[goodhue]

109. Arrested for what?

[Clarkie1]

119. Being in the country illegally, I presume. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

125. And what's the probable cause that would warrant such an arrest?

[shance]

128. Bring it on white rich male MSNBC!! Way to ignite that racist hatred!!

Fuel that white supremist fire, boys!!!

Keep the division, dishonesty and hatred going boys!!

Its what you do so well.

[LoneDriver]

130. Are they kidding?

These demonstrations were peaceful. Not even the authorities can deal with crowds that size if they turn nasty. Making mass arrests or even id checks would have turned them into riots.

[DisgustedTX]

158. Yes.

Yes!