My take on Illegal Immigrants

[craychek]

Being in the medical field I tend to look at things from a cause and effect kind of thing, a disease and symptoms view. The tons of illegal immigrants in this country is a SYMPTOM of the problem. Yes, having illegals here causes many other problems, but it is not the problem itself. The problem is two fold really.

First of all, the borders are NOT controlled even though they should because people a lot WORSE than illegals looking for work can get in with ease. Secondly, companies and contractors who are stretching and breaking the law by employing these people at or below minimum wage to increase their profits or save money. The way to stop illegals from coming requires first the government to gain control of our borders. That will slow or stop the flow of immigrants into the country.

Second, companys who HIRE these people need to be prosecuted and the consequences must be worse than the slap on the wrist kind of thing we have now.

Arresting illegals and deporting them right now will do nothing because more will just come in again. Treating the symptoms and NOT the disease only leads to the symptoms persisting or just getting lighter at great expense. Getting rid of the problems that result in illegal immigration will cost more now, but save money and time in the long run.

As far as handling illegal immigrants that are present now? I suggest an amesty for illegals for say a year to get proper work visas, citizenship, etc. after that, anyone who isn't registered or who hasn't started the process is gone. However, companies who hired these people should NOT be given amesty...

Anyways that's just my two cents. Comments are appricated and if you have any ideas please post them.

[ronnykmarshall]

1. To be honest ..

I haven't clue what the solution is.

I know this one thing ... if the US deported EVERY illegal, the economy would collapse.

[Solon]

2. Still only addressing the symptoms...

Look, employers only hire illegals because they can exploit them relentlessly without consequences, we all agree on that, but why do people risk so much to escape Mexico in the first place? That is where the cause, and solution lies, and to be honest, it isn't just isolated to that one country, solve that, and we solve the illegal immigration problem. The problem is that we helped destroy any semblence of Mexico ever rebuilding its economy, NAFTA not only didn't deliver on its promises, it made them worst, for all countries involved, its plain and simple, if you think about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It isn't up to the US to fix Mexico

We have a far greater responsibility to repair Iraq. We did so much worse damage there. I can't see how we can afford to spend money on both Mexico and Iraq.

[Solon]

6. US corporations destroyed Mexico, make them pay, not the Mexicans...

Their corrupt undemocratic government signed up to a bad deal to begin with, sold them a bag of shit, and said it was chocolate. Not exactly their fault, but the fault of the oligarchs in both nations, make all of them pay, keep the poor out of that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. I cam go along with that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. I think you have it figured out.

There's only one thing that might be hard. Right now it takes years in some parts of the US to even get in to see INS and get the citizenship process started. So we may want to either hire more INS workers or give the undocumented immigrants more than a year amnesty.

[Mojambo]

5. Let's start by kicking the shit out of Thomas Friedman

and all the other "free trade" pushers.

Then we can start looking at immigration.

[Richardson08]

8. They are illegal aliens...not immigrants...Lou Dobbs is the man

In my area,every other corner is stacked 10-15 illegal aliens deep waiting for anyone to pick them up for a days work.They stand in front of people's homes and businesses.If anyone says something to them,they brandish a knife and say "FU".When they leave for the day,bottles and food wrappers are left for the homeowner and business owner to pick up or they receive a $100 ticket from the New York City Sanitation Dept

They urinate in the street.In the driveways.They carry knives and guns.Most of the time they are piss drunk.Two incidents have taken place in my area.Two Mexicans standing on the corner got into a fight.One guy pulls out a knife and stabs the other guy in the chest.In the other incident,the illegal alien pulled out a gun and shot and killed another illegal alien

This is America?

Today was a beautiful day.No Mexicans loitering in front of your home.Sitting on your steps.Or pissing in your driveway

[Mojambo]

12. Well, you're quite the advocate for Richardson '08 n/t

[VirtualChicano]

9. Whachu talkin' 'bout PILGRIM?

LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL!

[Lasher]

10. I like your methodical analysis

Every solution is academic if it does not start with a real initiative in controlling our borders. Otherwise it's like trying to bail out your boat with a bucket while ignoring the big hole in the bottom of it. I believe the best, but not only, thing we can do in this respect is to build the fence. It's working south of San Diego and it would work elsewhere.

I don't like the idea of amnesty. In the past it has made things worse, and just talking about it now is encouraging more illegals to come here. Another problem with the idea is, it is not fair to the many people in China, South Korea, Nigeria, Ukraine, and everywhere else who want just as badly as people in Mexico to immigrate here. I would be willing to consider some form of amnesty, however, but only after we have control of our borders.

[Solon]

11. A fucking fence!?!?!?! Oh yeah, THAT'LL work really well...

:sarcasm:

Look, come up with solutions, not albatrosses, its over 2000 miles of border we are talking about, BILLIONS of dollars to build a fence, maintain it, and man it, let's work on WORKABLE SOLUTIONS PLEASE!!!

[Lasher]

15. I don't know what a fucking fence is

I don't think I want to know either (go away, bad vision)

I'm just in favor of a plain ol' fence. The cost is reasonable, considering alternatives. Like I said, it's working south of San Diego. Why wouldn't it be a workable solution elsewhere if it's working there?

[Solon]

17. OK, so throw money at a fence that can be circumvented...

with cheap devices, like a wire cutter, that'll work really well. BTW: the reason why the fence south of San Diego "works" is because its just marginally easier to go AROUND IT. I don't think it made a dent in stemming illegal immigration, hence, its a failure, and a waste of money.

[Lasher]

30. It's not easy to go through the San Diego fence

I don't know if you are aware that the San Diego fence is 14 miles of double or triple fencing, a no-man's land between countries for U.S. patrols, stadium spotlights, and a secret number of sensors and infrared cameras. This barrier is not easily defeated with cheap devices, as you have supposed.

It is not impossible to get past the fence, however. For example, you might remember the discovery last January of the half mile long tunnel that had been constructed between Tijuana and San Diego. Still, the fence serves its purpose of making illegal border crossings a lot more inconvenient.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0604190203apr19,1,5329064.story?page=1&coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

You are correct to say that illegals are going around the San Diego fence. But this is exactly my point: Let's extend the fence along the entire border to make it more difficult for illegals to cross at other places. I don't know how we're going to get any real control of our borders without it.

[craychek]

18. Did I mention a fence???

I don't believe I mentioned a fence, though that is one option. Others include survallience, patrols, etc.

However, to entertain your point... Yes a rather large "fence" would cost billions(probably 10s of billions), but the way things are currently, not stopping immagration costs us billions, maybe even 10s of billions ANNUALLY just to find these people, process them, and deport them, only to have them walk right back across the border. Lets not forget the fact that there is billions in lost wages to citizens and money that these illegals make that gets sent TO mexico. The last statistic I read had it somewhere in the billions... and this is annually... of course I did read on here today that 2/3s of stats are completely made up so who knows... but money does get sent back there definitely in the 100s of millions. So, cost aside, by building a rather large fence, probably 20-30 ft tall, 3-4 wide, with razor wire on top, or having a double fence like they do in some prisons, and yes it would cost 10s of billions probably to build and probably 100 mil a year to maintain with blocks of 500 mil every 5-10 years for serious repairs. Despite ALL these costs it would probably cost the same amount of money it costs annually to deal will illegal immagration the way we are now, JUST to build it. After that we save money. Lets not also forget that this will also put a dent in drug trafficing across the border as well which will decrease the amount of resources law enforment have to spend on that, or allow them to be deployed elsewhere...

Anyways that's my response. Post again if you like


On edit: yes this fence would cover the ENTIRE border in this case

[Solon]

19. You didn't mention a fence, no, I was responding to the other post...

OK, question here, are you a fan of Free Trade? Just a question, because if anything, this physical barrier will put a hamper on that.

[craychek]

25. not sure honestly

I don't know enough about it to have and educated opinion on it

[Solon]

26. Check post number 24, read and learn, Illegal Immigration and Free Trade..

are related.

[Lasher]

28. No, it was I who brought up the fence

Please note, I said that the fence is not the only solution that should be employed to secure our borders.

The fence would cost a maximum of about $8 billion.

Fencing the border, originally proposed in the debate over how to stop illegal immigration, is controversial. The Bush administration argues that a Berlin Wall-style barrier would be a huge waste of money — costing up to $8 billion.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-17-border-fence_x.htm

I cite this as a worst case scenario because the White House cited the figure in their argument against construction of the fence. I used some assumption here but I think it was reasonable. Please note that this is a projected capitol (one time) cost and there would be much more modest annual maintenance costs.

Now what is the cost of having illegal aliens in the USA?

A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty -- has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups.

***

"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.

The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html

It does not appear that the above referenced study takes into account the growth of illegal aliens that would likely occur if border controls were not enacted, or the impact on the US economy that occurs when illegals send money home to relatives living outside our country.

Still, an $8 billion capital investment to stem an annual cost of $10.4 billion seems a good investment.

[texastoast]

13. Let's see how this flies

"Second, companys who HIRE these people need to be prosecuted and the consequences must be worse than the slap on the wrist kind of thing we have now."

Now, let's put some teeth into that.

To begin with, you have to give the huge corporate employers (or a small employer) the benefit of the doubt. Let's say they want to do the right thing.

First, you would have to open up the databases to them so they could actually verify UNEQUIVOCALLY that documentation given by a prospective employee is real. Fake documentation can be readily obtained for about $200.

Second, hire the legals.

Third, send the illegals out the door.

Fourth, for any corporate employee not complying with the first or third prongs of this plan, that employee will go to jail for 2-5 years.

Fifth, for any corporation employing anyone under fourth above, every supervisor of that non-complying employee joins him for the same 2-5 years. All the way to the CEO and CFO.

[Robbie Michaels]

14. These Sound Like Good Ideas

The only thing you'd have to work around is the delay in processing visas because of the quota. I think for Mexicans they're just now getting to applications from 1992...or was it 1988?

[Ron Mexico]

16. I know of no sensible person who thinks that we should

round them all up and deport them. Who says we have to?

Impose extremely harsh penalties for hiring illegals. End all social services for illegals except for emergency care, and follow that up with deportation. Deport any who commit crimes. Heavily tax out-of-country wire transactions. In other words (and those were just a start), remove all incentives for illegals to be here. Adopt the same laws that Mexico has for people THERE illegally, and make it clear to Mexico that exporting poverty to us and actually figuring money from us into your annual budget will no longer fly.

Illegals and those who employ them are never going to get my sympathy.

[Solon]

20. Maybe if we didn't help destroy their local economy, we would have...

a valid beef as you stated. But since we helped create the mess, I say we should be at least partly responsible for cleaning it up. Just an idea.

[Ron Mexico]

21. Not a good one.

How long as this been going on? I'll bet half of our active posters weren't even alive the first time we had a blanket amnesty. Add up all of the costs of social services that we've spent on illegals, and I'd say that we've done enough. At some point, Mexico has to do something to help their economy other than print pamphlets to teach people how to sneak into here.

[Solon]

22. Past ten years ring a bell?

Damn people really can be dense. Let's see if I can explain this to you, U.S. Agriculture subsidies flooded the Mexican market with below price Maize and other crops, forcing Mexican farmers off their land, due to not being able to compete. At the same time, American Companies opened up factories in many Mexican communities, usually becoming the ONLY employer in town. Soon enough, cheaper labor markets opened up in other countries, so the American Companies then packed up and moved there instead, leaving many Mexicans without jobs and without prospects, so guess where they go now?

Is it any surprise that between 1990 and 2000 that immigration from Mexico, both illegal and legal has increased by almost 10%? Really, if we want to play the blame game alone, we don't have enough fingers for that. Instead why not work on short and LONG term solutions. Amnesty I oppose, for different reasons than you, obviously, for I don't demonize desparately poor people for my own pleasure, but then again, I'm interested in solutions, not scapegoating.

[Ron Mexico]

23. If that were true,

your post wouldn't have been full of shots at me, starting with "Damn people really can be dense" and ending with that drivel about "scapegoating." I don't "demonize desparately (sic) poor people for my own pleasure" either, but you have no problem doing it with people who don't agree with you.

Since you suggest working on solutions, do you have any, or are you armed only with these petty little shots of yours? Explain to an immigrant who came here legally and lost his job to illegals why I shouldn't have a problem with millions of people circumventing what I had to go through with something other than "you're a big stupid jerk-faced meanie with cooties," if you can. You've said you don't prefer amnesty, so what do we do?

[Solon]

24. First identify the problems...

Look at these particular links for a summary of that, they are PDF files, but rather short, about 2-3 pages:

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_ag.pdf
http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_democracy.pdf
http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_mexico.pdf
http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA_10_jobs.pdf

Look, tempers are short, including my own, people have been accusing Mexicans of everything from violent crime to playing music too loud as excuses for rounding them up and deporting them outright. Stupid, racist shit that really pisses me off, but then again, like I said, people don't want to listen to solutions anymore, just soundbites and scapegoating. Most of the "Solutions" proposed sound like trying to put a bandaid on a sucking chest wound, in other words, they can be worst than the problem was in the first place. An example is the Amnesty proposal, that would only work if the flow of illegals stops at some point, but it won't, not until US and Mexican born economic problems in Mexico are solved first. This can be done in a Multifaceted way, and have the odd side effect of strengthening AMERICAN jobs as well. If you really want to look at my proposal, its right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

Look, I'm sorry if I offended, as I said, fuses are short right now, and people are acting stupid on this board, on all sides.

[Ron Mexico]

27. I agree with most of this, but

what percentage of illegals are from Mexico? I've seen varying estimates, from 45-58%. Regardless of what's true, getting rid of NAFTA is a good first step, but it won't do it all. I will look at these .pdfs tonight, though.

I'd like to remove all incentives for illegals to be here, period. Reworking NAFTA into something sensible (and I agree with most of your bullet points) seems fine and will take care of a lot of the problems with illegals from Mexico and Canada, but as for the others - and not to sound simplistic here - we're going to have to threatenen employers with clubbings, leeches, locusts, toads, fire and brimstone for hiring people illegally. Unless all incentive to be here illegally is gone, your proposal may well be little more than a larger bandage than the proposals you've read so far.

I don't believe in amnesty and I don't believe in deportation (unless their lawbreaking goes somewhat beyond immigration status), but on the other hand I don't believe "aww, they're just trying for a better life, so let's let them get away with anything they pull to show how compassionate we are" is acceptable, either. And just as you've heard lots of racist shit today, I've heard a lot of shit that seems to indicate that my failure to simply believe that all illegals should be able to bypass the system and collect benefits I never got to collect as an immigrant makes ME a racist - and that pisses ME off. That's not what you did, but after reading so much other "illegals ueber alles, including you" crap, I wasn't ready to be yelled at like my freetard co-workers so often do - so I hope you understand why my fuse is short now as well.

At any rate, let me read these over and get back to you. I just wanted to post because while what you wrote in that other post doesn't seem unreasonable, every part of your plan (and .pdf sources) focus on NAFTA. That patches the two front tires, but the two rear ones will likely still be flat.

Ron

[Solon]

29. OK, that's cool...

I just want to make something clear, I view this as an economic issue only, not a cultural issue. This is why I concentrate on NAFTA, for now, we got other fish to fry with the WTO, in addition to the IMF. I know you probably didn't read all of my particular proposal, but here's an interesting idea for penalizing companies that not only benefitted from illegal immigrant labor, but also benefited from NAFTA at the detriment to all of us. Instead of fines, impose that they must accept Unionized labor in all their factories, plants, farms, whatever, and also that they are the ones who must pay for the rebuilding of not only Mexico's economy but also for sections of America's and Canada's economies that were damaged by their practices. It doesn't have to be extreme, half their profits should suffice, and if they decide to raise their prices to compensate, well, it wouldn't do them any good, after all, we the people have the power to set the prices through government after all, so we should do it if necessary.

Not to mention that as I said, my proposal is incomplete, so any suggestions or expansions on it would be helpful, along with constructive critism. Also, another note, I oppose outright amnesty and deportation myself. That is part of the reason for my proposal, I'm going for the "middle ground" in this, basically normalizing trade and labor relations with both Mexico and Canada. Instead of outright amnesty, which, without dealing with the economic problems in Mexico, only opens the floodgates. However, since they are hear, give them legal alternatives, if we institute a free movement of labor provision as I proposed, they wouldn't necessarily be on the road to citizenship, but would be legal workers within the nation, and therefore be subject to the same labor protections as Americans, in addition to this, the proposal would be reciprocal, if you can find a better job in Mexico or Canada, then you can work there without restriction as well.

Now this is almost identical to how the EU operates, a citizen of one EU member nation is free to seek work in any other EU nation with no added restrictions. But, given the realities of our particular situation, with the disparaties between Mexico and the United States and Canada, so that's part of the reason for the funding required to rebuild Mexico's economy and also for the Worker's Council to administer over worker's rights in all three nations. My biggest problem is trying to balance the Soveriegnty of all three nations with needed reforms to our linked economies. Nowadays, with a decade of NAFTA behind us, our economies cannot be easily separated, so instead let's simply reform them so that they actually are concerned with worker's rights and democratic accountability, instead of having this so called "free" trade imposed on us from above.