I've been on the fence about this immigration thing....

[liberaliraqvet26]

but little by little im coming down on the side of Dobbs. Nothing extreme like felony convictions or deportation, just stop the flow and penalize employers.

This is one of the reasons wages have gone down. We already have enough Americans with no healthcare we don't need to import them.

I know im gonna get flamed but im giving my opinion.

[Hekate]

1. It's tough, I know. No flames. But I marched in my town today.

Santa Barbara's not a terribly big city, but there is a big Latino presence. In the county, agribusiness extensively recruits and employs undocumented workers in the broccoli, strawberry, and grape fields -- and then dumps their medical and social welfare needs on the county government. Whose fault is that?

Everywhere you look outside the fields, you find Latinos employed in the service industries as well. They mow our lawns -- and do we ask for papers? They nanny our children and scrub our toilets. They diaper our nursing home patients. They bus the tables and wash the dishes in our restaurants.

Big employers and individual families alike take advantage of these people. And btw, they DO pay taxes. Big employers remove payroll taxes and Social Security taxes from their wages -- and undocumenteds will never ask for a tax return or try to collect Social Security. Beyond that, they are taxed for everything they buy, just like you and me -- food, gasoline, clothing.

Over 20 years ago I took a look at the situation and concluded that the US government, in service to agribusiness and the big corporations, is really NOT serious about fixing this problem. The Mexican government counts on the US to siphon off the jobless and desperate, and they count on emigrants to send money home.

Gentleman's agreement, anyone? Right hand washing the left?

As an American of Irish descent, I am inclined to sympathize with people desperate enough to risk death to get here, because some of my ancestors came here on the "coffin ships" themselves.

As an American watching our middle class erode from multiple causes, I am concerned that undocumented workers are unregulated workers -- that is, the businesses they work for are getting away with treating them like serfs with no rights, that they can't unionize and demand better wages and treatment. This really does bring us all down.

I realize I don't have anything like a coherent policy in mind, but I do know that something in this situation stinks to high heaven. ALL OF US are being jerked around by George W Bush and his corporate cronies. ALL OF US are being played like pawns on their economic chessboard.

And if I have to choose between Bush and the undocumented immigrants -- well, I went downtown today and joined almost 10,000 of them on the main drag for a completely peaceful and highly energized protest. I felt like I was at the birth of the new Civil Rights movement.

And after 5 years of Bush-caused despair, I felt like I was in the presence of people who really believe in the promise of this country.

Hekate

[silverlib]

22. I really appreciate your thoughts on this...

You expressed yourself quite well and I share all of your opinions.

My husband says we don't need to give them green cards, we just need to give them union cards and all of their problems would go away. We also need to do something (I wish I knew what) to help bring up the economy in Mexico. And we do need to protect our borders, but not from those who add so much to our own economy and enhance our lives.

[Hekate]

27. Thanks. I'm still excited from today: there were at least 15,000 people!

According to the local 11:00 news -- and you know how tv news minimizes things like this -- this was the biggest march in our county's history. The 15,000+ were in Santa Barbara; Santa Maria (strawberries and broccoli) was credited with "thousands"; Carpinteria (flower fields) had "hundreds"; and even Isla Vista (students) next to the University had "hundreds." The news anchor reported "millions" across the country came out today.

This is so wonderful I just want to dance.

Hekate

[jazzjunkysue]

33. If we outsource to mexico, we solve both problems: And create more.

So, why is it that india has so many useful workers that they can take our IT jobs and mexico can take our blue collar jobs? Indians can't walk across the border in a day. That's why we like them.

So, if we give the IT jobs to india and the manual labor to mexicans here, and all the manufacturing jobs are gone, what's left for the american middle class that works 3 jobs just to get by?

This is not an either/or, right/wrong problem, nor is it a legal/illegal problem, and Dobbs is wrong when he paints it that way.

I don't know what should be done, but I do know that this administration has emptied our bank accounts, and so even if we figure out what "we all want" done, whatever "we" means, we no longer have the $$ to make it happen.

Let's fix the government (american), stop all the bickering within the democratic party, choose a platform based in reality and sell, sell, sell it.

When we have built a functioning government called America we can then get our own laws and finances in order. Then we can tackle other countries like Iraq, Iran and Mexico.

Until then, local states where the influx of untaxed immigrants is bankrupting the economies will have to do whatever they feel is needed to stay solvent: Schools, hospitals, healthcare, police protection. if some states need to start charging local compainies who hire illegals in order to generate the revenue for their services, then let them. If others don't (like NY) then we won't. Building a wall won't generate the income. They'll find another way in, and it will become another state's problem. That's why Arizona is wrong to build the wall.

Let's think in terms of financing the basic needs of the people who are here, no matter what their native birth country, and if that means registering and taxing them, so be it. But locking them all up in jails won't generate that revenue, and it will tear up families.

Let's think revenue instead of us/them, right/wrong and legal/illegal.

[rug]

2. Best then to tear down the fence.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Flamed? nope, just an observation.

In my new england town there were 300 or so joyous celebrants demonstrating their love for America and three freepers, one holding a 'Deport Them All' sign. You choose your bedfellows, I know who the good people were, who was celebrating, who had their families with them, who were all smiles and good vibes.

[liberaliraqvet26]

9. No I woudnt be with the freepers....

but where do we draw the line?? That is what we have to figure out.

[babylonsister]

4. Dobbs doesn't do that imo. He's hardcore and has been for

awhile. He talks about illegal immigrants like they're second class citizens, and I hate that.
I do agree with doing something valid with the borders (NOT fences) and penalizing employers.

[William769]

7. Second class citizen?

Thats a plus! They are not citizens!

[babylonsister]

11. Yeah, so?

Unless you're an American Indian, your family came here from another land also, as did mine.
What do you suggest be done with over 11 million plus people, if you had your way?

[William769]

15. Well to begin with I am Cherokee, but thats neither here nor there.

I am a 2nd class citizen in the U.S., and until that changes fuck everyone else.

[babylonsister]

20. But that's not because of your ethnicity, is it? That's a whole

different kettle of fish, my friend.
Us folks on DU are at least brainstorming to try to make changes. Nothing is fair, but I don't agree with the 'fuck everyone else' mantra.
We have to keep talking, keep our issues, all issues, in the forefront. And here's a hug for you. :hug:

[serryjw]

24. Funny, I don't see anyone Marching for you.......

and this IS YOUR LAND!! If anyone had a right to bitch it's the American Indians that we have screwed for centuries.

[mondo joe]

23. How can a non citizen be second class?

Illegal immigrants aren't citizens.

[Bushy Being Born]

30. Theoretically, you're right.

But since they de facto both live and work here, that in practice makes them a citizen of sorts, albeit not in the truest sense of the word. And since it would be an affront to those citizens who obtained their status through legal means to equate the two, that in fact makes them second rate. Aliens, illegals, second rate citizens, in the end it's just word twisting.

[mondo joe]

31. Then they have made themselves second class "citizens" by illegally

entering the country.

[Bushy Being Born]

29. Anyone not in the country legally is by definition a second class citizen

Just sayin'...

[bahrbearian]

5. The Easy solution, penalize the employers ,, no fence,, raise

minimum wage

[William769]

6. We are a Country of Immigrants.

But when is enough enough? I agree we need immigration laws. But then again with the Exodus that I have heard about leaving this Country, Maybe we can handle the influx. :evilgrin:

[mike_c]

8. one of the fourteen defining characteristics of fascism...

...is scapegoating a minority group for the problems of the nation:

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/The_14_characteristics_030303.htm

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

[babylonsister]

12. mike_c, that's the 'ticket' this is running on. A perfect distraction

taken from a fascist playbook. Damn!

[mike_c]

16. I meant to add that the NON-FASCIST response...

...to the problem the OP cited is to seek means of addressing the wage problem without scapegoating a class of workers who are simply desperate enough to allow themselves to be exploited. For example, require ALL employers to pay at least a locally determined living wage to ALL employees. The wage problem would be solved, and Americans could compete for lettuce picking jobs if they wanted them, without the excuse the "immigrants drove wages down."

Second, people need to realize that even in the current climate, immigrants don't drive down wages-- they're victims too, and in no way responsible for low wages. Low wages are driven by employer greed, pure and simple. Low wages result when employers decide to pay the least they can for labor in order to maximize profits. Even arguments that begin with "but we couldn't stay in business if we had to pay prevailing wages" ultimately boil down to "and our maintaining our business is more important than the dignity and security of the people whose backs we built that business upon."

The NON-FASCIST response is to go after the real culprits, and not scapegoat one group of victims.

[William769]

17. Forgotten is sexual orientation.

[sam sarrha]

10. Mexico is exporting their poverty to the US, to make their rich richer and

and place the expense of caring for them on us..

Bu$hitCo wins with lower wages and busting the Health care system as it Exists and destroying the unions..

the UN has declared Mexico 'Morally Bankrupt and democratically irretrievable'

Mexico advertises for its poor to go to the us and send money home, Migrants sending money home is the largest growth industry in Mexico.. about $15,000,000,000 annually.

about 10% of the population of Mexico has migrated here.. because of the corruption in mexico, and NAFTA has taken about 26,000,000 jobs from us that aren't coming back. and the Mexican government pays minimum wage of about $4.60 a day.. Nafta didn't FIX mexico and didn't create one net job here.. it only created massive poverty along the boarder that is now migrating here out of desperation... when Mexico is more than capable of taking care of them and creating jobs and providing education and health care.

[sandnsea]

13. Path to Citizenship

The McCain-Kennedy bill included new employer penalties, new enforcement mechanisms, etc. That's the choice. Felonies and a fence. Or Path to Citizenship. I don't know how it got so screwed up.

It won't matter who takes jobs with low wages, they won't be able to afford health care either. If corporations can't get enough low wage workers here, they'll just ship the jobs overseas. We either stand together for workers all over the world, or we become a world of 2% uber-wealthy and 98% huts.

[mike_c]

21. absolutely spot ON....

Bravo! :applause:

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. We have Americans with no healthcare because of American CONSUMERS

For employers to provide healthcare coverage to all of their workers, a head of lettuce would cost $4, an egg McMuffin would cost $5, a movie ticket would set you back $14, and don't get me started on the price of clothing!

Don't blame the people who are willing to do the jobs for lower pay and no benefits. Blame the people who force employers to cut costs to the point that the only people they can afford to hire are people willing to do the job for lower pay and no benefits.

[Hekate]

28. Ever since I noticed the feds spend over half our taxes on war...

... I realized the US really can afford a high level of social services (including health care). We have the revenue, in the form of our taxes that go to the feds. We as individuals already pay more for health care than any other industrialized nation on the planet.

It's all a matter of priorities. Our government, and the corporations they are beholden to, have decided that war (and by that I mean everything from military hardware to weapons research to invading a country) is a higher priority than anything else.

It's like a dysfunctional family, where the kids need milk and new shoes -- but Mom and Dad are spending everything on meth. And then telling the kids they just can't afford milk and shoes, because those things are just not in the budget and it is unreasonable to ask for them.

That's Hekate's new and improved economic theory. I don't really blame our lack of national rational health care on the consumer's (i.e. the average Joe or Juan) desire for lower prices. Not since I noticed that over half of the taxes collected from me by the federal government go to the military-industrial complex -- leaving every other agency or purpose scrambling for the leftovers.

Hekate

[Lexingtonian]

18. You're not done thinking yet.

Keep on going.

[thoughtanarchist]

19. immigration control: It's not an unreasonable stance...

I agonized over the immigration issue for quite awhile... I could not get comfortable with my own stance until I heard similar sentiments echoed by Thom Hartmann, a man for whom I have infinite respect.

Dobbs and Hartmann are both right in that:

. illegal labor and cheap foreign labor DOES devalue the labor of our citizens.
. amnesty WILL do nothing to stem the inflow of illegal immigrants
. big business IS mostly unregulated in their use of illegal labor
. this IS a Rovian red herring to distract and divide and to position republicans for a win in '06
. just because the right draws a line in the sand that does not mean the left is forced to line up on the other side.


There is 1 response to this dilemma that points to relief. The populist answer will strengthen our labor force and start to diffuse the tension that has been building:

The penalty for hiring illegal labor for any business has to be so devastating as to completely snuff out the use of illegal labor.

-- what is that devastating?
-- 50% tax penalty for the first offense for a 5 year term.
-- 60% tax penalty for the next offense for an additional 5 years.
-- subsequent offenses add on an additional 10% and an additional 5 years up to 90%tax rate.

You can be sure that it would not take too many examples before the work that is attracting illegal immigrants dries up. Once the labor crime is wiped out, we will be able to take control of an amnesty program for current residents in a deliberate manner... Then work can begin to clean up the corrupt business and government environments both here and in Mexico.


Nations have immigration laws for a reason. Nations tighten and relax immigration quotas as labor requirements ebb and flow. Right now the US is in a tough spot for wage earners. It is not unreasonable for us to enact the policies that all other nations do in similar situations.

It would be sad to see if good intentions was one of main the factors that contributes to our decline into 3rd world status.

Honor the labor activists who stood before us and led us out of the unfair labor practices of the gilded age. It's not the nicest, most pleasant stance, but as any flight attendant will tell you: you cannot help the person next to you with their oxygen mask if you yourself are suffocating!

[Booster]

25. That is the most articulate thing I have read on the immigration

problem to date. Very, very well said and in a calm and sane manner. I'm not really sure where I stand on the problem, but I know just making them all citizens with benefits is not the answer - more and more will come and we will have this problem over and over. Again, very well said.

[thoughtanarchist]

26. Thank you!

My low post count is a testament that I only share when I'm sure that I can defend my position...or when I'm contributing a wise ass 1 liner.

:evilgrin:

I gotta reiterate that I'm floored by how much dust the right was able to stir up by hammering this issue around the media. We can turn this to our advantage if we can get control of the discourse and show the general populace that this is a "crisis" resulting from poor industry regulation instead of a demonic marauding horde of invading conquistadors.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

32. no. IMHO, any post that relies on "Us" and "Them" for meaning and...

"reasoning" belongs on another site. If you think of yourself as a world citizen, instead of relying on the accidental privilege of your birth in this country, then you simply can't support any policy that refuses entry to the destitute. Yes, American wages may go down if immigration is unchecked. Yes, health care will be a real problem--but I think it's reasonable to assume that standards for health and living will be higher in this country for almost all immigrants, legal or not. And, yes, of course, politically it's not a winner. And so what.