Why can't Mexicans get legal work here?

[wysiwyg]

One thing I have been wondering about is why people are coming here illegally to work particularly if they have no plans to become citizens. Is the US denying them visas that would let them work?

I'm talking about Mexican citizens and not people who entered Mexico illegially from Central and South America, China, etc. I know WHY Mexicans would want to work here but I'm wondering why they can't do it legally.

[Skink]

1. We need slaves.

[leftofthedial]

16. that is basically correct

for capitalism to survive, it needs a source of essentially free raw material, whether that is land, labor or natural resources. Now, the only resource available is cheaper labor. Capitalism is consuming itself. By far, the major resource feeding capitalism today is capital itself. While it thrashes around devouring itself, it is destroying us and our planet.

[hexola]

29. Well said...I am copying your phrasing for later use...

Thanks - I usually have to use about 10 times as many words to say that...

[madrchsod]

2. they do have plans to become citizens

although they wish to stay in mexico but cannot because there is no work...study up on what NAFTA has done to the mexican
economy and it`s citizens.

[CrispyQ]

5. The same thing it's done to our economy & our citizens,

only with a much more devastating effect.

These fucking mega-corps are destroying all human communities in their never-ending quest for profit, profit & more profit. We must put these behemoths back in their place or they will enslave the entire human race. Hell, we may be too fucking late.

[Up2Late]

3. The visa thing is one of several parts of the problem...

...and I could tell you the rest of the problems, but you probably wouldn't believe me, unless you do some of your own research.


So do you really want to know, or are you just looking to start trouble here?

[wysiwyg]

6. Actually I asked because I would literally like to know the issues

I know WHY people want to work here what I haven't seen is a discussion of why Mexicans would come here illegally. Is it because they can't get passports or visas?

I thought it would be better asking here since the google results were full of right-wing websites; i.e. Newsmax,etc.

Why would anyone think I'm trying to start trouble? Is the answer so obvious that you are offended I don't already know the answer?

[Up2Late]

20. No, it's not obvious, that's the problem. It's a very complicated...

...set of issues, and the way you phrased your question, with sweeping, prejudicial statements, is almost exactly how the trouble makers start their questions.

O.K., here's the first wake up call, just about everything you think you know about Mexico, and the Mexican people is wrong and part of a major lie the U.S. Government and U.S. Media has been telling you (and all of us) for our entire lives.

O.K., here are some of the reasons, in no particular order,

1) Mexico is NOT a 3rd world country.

2) Not all Mexicans are Poor.

3) Not all Mexican have brown skin, some of them are White (Spanish from Spain).

4) Most of the Money in Mexico is controlled by the White Mexicans, who do not want to share the Money they have with the poor, brown skin Mexicans, there by, keeping them poor.

You want me to keep going? The truth only gets worst from here.

BTW, the U.S. Visa issue is only a secondary issue that the U.S. media uses, because it's easy for us Gringos to understand.

[hfojvt]

23. I feel like objecting there

to the first point - Mexico is not a third world country?
I did some of my own research and Mexico's per capita GDP is about $9,000 US equivalent (if I am remembering correctly) that is less than minimum wage in the US even if it was equally shared (which it is not in any country in the world). US per capita GDP is upwards of $40,000, although I do not know anyone personally who is that well off, but it does mean we have income as a country. Granted there are serious flaws in GDP as a measure of well being, but it does kinda show how much wealth there is to share.

[Up2Late]

26. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'd like to see where that $9000.00...

...figure comes from. Who's providing those numbers and how old are they?

I would bet there is some creative accounting being done by whoever is providing the RAW numbers.

Plus, you need to remember that the cost of living is very different there. According to this recent Business Week article, the Mexican middle class is "...those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year..." and a good "starter home" goes for about $25,000.00 Dollars US.

Plus, I find it very hard to believe that a country that sells as much Oil to the U.S. as Mexico does (They are #2 after Canada: <http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_a.htm> could be considered a Third World Country.

MARCH 13, 2006

GLOBAL BUSINESS

Piggybanks Full Of Pesos

Mexico's middle class is exploding, and that's good for U.S. business

Lucia Jimenez and Benjamín Macias have been married for just a month, but they're already buying their first home: a newly built two-bedroom bungalow in an attractive subdivision a half-hour's drive from Mexico City. Lucia, 23, a clothing store clerk, and Benjamín, 24, an office worker at an eyeglass retailer, have a combined income of nearly $650 a month, enough to qualify for a 30-year loan to buy their $25,200 house. "Before, it was much more difficult to buy your own home," says Lucia. "Things have gotten a lot better."

American conceptions of Mexico usually focus on the country's poverty and the endless flow of illegal immigrants to the U.S. But another Mexico is starting to emerge: a middle-class nation where millions have access to mortgages, solid jobs provide security, and a class of strivers saves to put its kids through college (page 52). This has the makings of a much more stable Mexico, and a much more lucrative market for U.S. companies. "We're very interested in the Mexican middle class," says Edmundo Vallejo, chief executive of GE Latin America, a big provider of consumer finance.

The ranks of that middle class, or those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year, have swelled to record levels of around 10 million families. That's equal to nearly 40% of all Mexican households, vs. 30% just a few years ago. It helps that for almost a decade now, wages have been rising faster than inflation. In addition, women are having fewer children, and more of them are joining the workforce, giving households more money to spend and save.

Homeownership is the other key factor in Mexico's transformation, because it allows families to build equity, establish credit histories, and move up the economic ladder. The country is in the grips of a housing boom that is reminiscent of America's post-World War II expansion. A record 560,000 new mortgage-financed homes were built last year, almost double the number in 2000, and 750,000 more are expected for 2006.

(more at link)
<http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_11/b3975071.htm>

Also, one thing we very rarely hear about is the Super-rich Mexicans, who are too few in number to off set the enormous numbers of the extremely poor. And the Very Rich don't come here looking for work, the very poor do.

[hfojvt]

27. from here it says 2003 and "purchasing power equivalent"

so it should be accounting for COL.
http://worldfacts.us/Mexico.htm

[Up2Late]

31. I hate to tell you, but that info is from the CIA World "fact" book...

...probably one of the worst sources to refer to regarding Mexico and Central/South America.

But even by their numbers, in the 2006 "fact" book, Mexico is the 12th richest country in the world, just ahead of Spain and just behind Canada, with a GDP of 1.068 Trillion Dollars (US): <http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html>

Here's the 2006 CIA Factbook link for Mexico: <http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html>

I'd have to say that $ 1,068,000,000,000.00 puts Mexico solidly in the First world, they just have a VERY corrupt government that protects the extreme wealth of those at the top and keeps the bottom 30% to 40% in poverty and coming across the border "...to do the work Americans won't do."

This is a very interesting English Language, Mexican Economics website web site, I haven't yet researched who is behind this site, but the data is much more current and shows a very different picture of Mexico's economic heath:

<http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/lloyds/llydeco0306.html#j>

<http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/lloyds/llydeco9.html>


BTW, according to what I read last night, the Poverty rate in Mexico is falling at at least twice the rate that poverty is rising in the U.S.:

<http://www.latinbusinesschronicle.com/reports/reports/1205/poverty.htm>

SPECIAL REPORT
DECEMBER 2005

Latin Poverty Declines

Thanks to macro economic improvements, growing remittances and increased social spending, poverty in Latin America has been significantly reduced, a fresh report shows.

BY CHRONICLE STAFF

Thirteen million Latin Americans left the ranks of the region's poor between 2003 and 2005, according to a new report from the UN Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC).

However, there are still 213 million poor in Latin America, of which 88 million live in extreme poverty, the new report, Social Panorama of Latin America, shows.

Measured in percentage of population, the progress has been even greater. The number of poor - defined as those living on less than two dollars a day - fell from 44.3 percent of the total population in 2003 to 40.6 percent in 2005. The number of extreme poor - defined as those living on less than one dollar a day - fell from 19.2 percent in 2003 to 16.8 percent in 2005.

"Improving economic conditions, remittances from emigrants, and increased social expenditures have all helped to turn around the rising trend that prevailed in the region from 1990 on," ECLAC says in the report.

(more at link)

<http://www.latinbusinesschronicle.com/reports/reports/1205/poverty.htm>

[hfojvt]

35. they are not solidly in the first world

Although they are a powerful nation because of their size, but this is the relevant ranking of per capita income

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

I must admit that they are not third world, which I would call the "below $9000 per capita" countries. $10,000 per capita is worlds away from $1500 per capita but it is also worlds away from $30,000 per capita. They would need to double their per capita income to be first world. Not that income is everything.

[babylonsister]

4. They've had legal work for years. Where the hell have you been? nt

[wysiwyg]

8. Oh please...

I asked why people would come here illegally. I've worked with plenty that came here legally, along with Indians, Pakistanis, Lebanese, Koreans, etc. Check the attitude, it's a valid question.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylonsister]

17. I am not 'feeding my ego' despite your bullshit.

People are working and have worked, are attempting to work from other countries to 'be' Americans. Do you have a clue what it takes to become an 'American' nowadays? It's not easy; when you figure it out, get back to me, and don't you dare disparage me, you piece of fluff!

[wysiwyg]

18. Hypocrisy of Republican proportions

Let's see, you responded negatively to my original question, and in a "how dare you talk back to me" post you called me a pompous ass and a know it all. Now, you are puffing up your chest once more to say how dare I question one of your obvious stature. Why in the hell would I get back to you on anything?

I will agree with you on one thing: Asking a question here was a big mistake on my part.

[babylonsister]

21. Hypocrisy of Republican proportions?

Because I dare - gasp! - disagree with you? So, are you on the wrong forum? I have no stature, I'm just curious. And, if you're never going to 'chat' again, why the hell are you responding?
I'm all for anyone with any opinion, but don't attack, feed me some truth. That is why I'm here.

[caledesi]

7. They can do it legally, maybe, but it may take up to 10 years and

they must pay through the nose to immigrate legally. With a 40 percent unemployment rate in Mexico, it is pretty hard to do both.

Besides, Mexico is very corrupt and Vincente is basically saying "go somewhere else agmigos, if you want a better life."

Nice, huh?

[Nikia]

38. I don't know if they have to wait to get visas or not

Or if the company who sponsors them wants them that they can come in. At the company where I worked, most of them were from the same small city or realted to people from there. They have to leave and go back to Mexico every year, but they can work for company that sponsors them for fall agriculturual processing.

[SoCalDem]

9. Got to BE here legally to "work" legally.. It's HARD to get permission

to come here..visas are not issued lavishly. Go to Canada's website and look at the requirements to emigrate there.. WE have requirements too, but because it's easier to GET here, lots of people bypass the legalities and blend into the underground economy.

people who must arrive by plane or boat (think Europe/Asia/Africa) are faced with customs agents who will readily discount their documents if they do not pass muster, but if you can walk here or get past the beleaguered border agents, you are "home free".

We used to strictly enforce support requirements for people arriving , from sponsors already here, but that's become pretty much of a joke, and once here, the humanitarian aid usually is given..even if grudgingly.

America has an identity crisis.. we claim to be compassionate, but when things are financially tight for us, we roll up the welcome mat pretty quickly..

[wysiwyg]

10. I actually checked the Canada website November 2004 :-)

[SoCalDem]

11. i did too.. we're too old and too poor

:cry:

[wysiwyg]

13. Visa types...

Ok, I see where the US has several types of visas, a Nonimmigrant Visa would be appropriate for someone not planning to be a citizen. There are several types.

There is currently a big backlog so there is a big wait. Other than that, would the US consulate or embassy deny a migrant worker, for example, an H2A Temporary Agriculture Worker Visa? Is it really hard to get a passport for Mexicans without much money?

So, are the problems on our end, where a reasonable Congress might be able to do something, or is it in Mexico? What could be done on our end to make it unnecessary to enter the country illegally for anyone coming here?

[Up2Late]

22. Here's some actual info from an Immigration Lawyers website on H2As.

But I don't think Immigration Lawyers come cheap:

http://www.visasusa.com/work-visa/h2a-visa.php

WORK VISA H2A Visa for Agricultural Workers

The H-2A visa is designated for individuals who will be employed as seasonal agricultural workers. The H-2A visa may be issued for a period up to eleven months and may be extended for a three year total duration. There is no numerical limit to the number of H-2A visas issued. A single petition may be used to sponsor a large number of H2-A visas if:

* they will perform the same services;
* they will work at the same location; and
* they obtain their visa stamp through the same US Consulate.

Spouses and children of H2A visa holders may enter and remain in the U.S. in H4 status. H4 visa holders may attend school in the US but cannot accept employment.
For whom is a H-2A Visa appropriate?

Foreign agricultural workers who will work for US companies to provide labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature
What are the requirements for obtaining an H-2A Visa?

An H-2A petitioner must establish that the employment proposed in the certification is of a temporary or seasonal nature. Employment is of a seasonal nature where it is tied to a certain time of year by an event or pattern, such as a short annual growing cycle or a specific aspect of a longer cycle, and requires labor levels far above those necessary for ongoing operations. Employment is of a temporary nature where the employer's need to fill the position with a temporary worker will, except in extraordinary circumstances, last no longer than one year.

Alcala Immigration Law Firm can help you with this process. Contact us at: [e-mail]; by phone at [phone] for Utah or [phone] outside Utah.

But I'm sure if a major Corporation, who REALLY needs some non-U.S.workers and has a lot of money to "donate" to a certain Congressman, I'm sure something could be worked out.

And if you are "...a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability..." you could get a H2B Visa. :wtf:

[Nikia]

37. Some companies in my area employ Mexicans on visa

I don't know who approaches who. I know that at the company that I worked for that most of the Mexican workers on visa knew each other in Mexico, that at least one of them had practiced law in Mexico, and that a couple of them recruit others.
Companies who need immigrant temporary labor should use this program. When they could, but don't, they should be punished. It is that simple.

[riderinthestorm]

12. In my business, there are many Mexican workers

I own a horse farm and this business is one of those (like fruit picking, landscaping, food service, and factory work) which seems to be populated by a lot of Mexicans.

I ask for their SS cards and a driver's license when they fill out their W-4's. I copy both and keep them on file. But as to who is legal or not? I could guess at this point - knowing a few of them fairly well, having partied with them, and watched their children grow up and all but I don't really know for sure. I file ag taxes regularly so you'd think any wierd SS numbers would already have put INS at my door....

The thing is, I would readily be a sponsor for any of the 10 or so Mexicans who work for me regularly. They are a dream team as far as I am concerned. In fact, they already know this about me as I've stated it upfront. But none of them ever approach me about becoming legal.

I can't figure it out either. Legal ou no legal....

For whatever it's worth, everyone showed up to work today too - no walkouts for me.

[slackmaster]

19. In mine as well

Two software developers and a database administrator. Their salaries are a lot higher than mine.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

25. You can find out in about 24 hours for $20

if you really want to know.

I'm torn about the issue too. I have worked with many illegals, side by side, and they are great workers. But now I can't find a living wage job in my fields.

quite a conundrum. :(

[Robbie Michaels]

24. There's a long backlog on visas

I checked out a web site last night on this topic and IIRC the INS is processing applications from 1988 or 1992. The point is, these people don't have 20 years to wait around for things to get better. They're practically economic refugees thanks to our policies.

[Up2Late]

28. It's not just our policies, the Mexican Government should take much...

...of the blame too. Check out this article from 2003. This woman really explains the scam well:

<http://www.vdare.com/walker/mexico_the_rich.htm>

It also has some very good links embedded in it too, like this one:

<http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/lloyds/llydeco0306.html#j>

<http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/lloyds/llydeco9.html>

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Corporations don't want to pay them a FAIR wage, provide health insurance,

provide unemployment benefits, worker's safety or worker's rights. IOW....they want SLAVE LABOR. Who will the slaves report their mistreatment to? It's a very cozy arrangement.:( This is all by design....IN FAVOR OF THE COMPANIES THAT HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

EVERYTHING in this country favors the corporations.

[WillyT]

32. Too Many Assholes Live In The United States

:evilfrown:

[Cleita]

33. Because the immigration quotas are too low. The immigration

department needs to raise the quotas to meet the demands for their labor, then they could work here legally for proper wages and they could join unions. However, I think there is a large racist segment that doesn't want this because they aren't white. It used to be that the labor force came from Europe, but now with the European economies and socialist type governments, the Europeans don't need us anymore.

[Marie26]

34. They can't enter legally

In order to get a visa, you need to be an immediate family member, a highly-skilled professional, or seeking asylum from persecution. That's pretty much it. There is also a small lottery - but Mexicans can't apply for that. For most people, the choice is between working here illegally or not working at all.

[librechik]

36. Apparently only scientists, teachers and so on can legally emigrate

to the US from Mexico. Laundresses, gardners, and construction laborers have to sneak in

[Egalitariat]

39. As long as there are unemployed and underemployed US citizens, we don't

need to be importing workers or exporting jobs.