Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

How can we make mass transit pratical in the U.S....

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:24 PM
Original message
How can we make mass transit pratical in the U.S....
If I want to get to work on mass transit(a bus) in Kansas City I will have to leave at least an hour and a half earlier to ride mutiple buses. There is no other transport in KC. When I was thinking of moving to Houston, I was shcoked that such a large city had such few mass transit options. I also quickly noticed that the city was ridiculously spread out. Is there any way to make mass transit pratical in western style cities?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. probably lots of trolley/tram systems
and no pollution
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry, all extra money goes to oil companies, not to the people. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Stop the Oil/Auto Industry from sabatoging its installation/progress.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. The way most American cities are laid out makes it difficult...
The suburban sprawl and decentralization make it a less viable option. I think at some point we're going to have to re-evaluate our approach to development, period. In the post-Peak Oil era, far flung suburbs will just not be an option. I think Portland, Oregon, has been somewhat successful in fighting sprawl.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Kansas City is pretty sprawled out...
although there have been efforts to revitalize our central part of the city.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I feel your pain...
I live in Detroit, where the auto companies made sure the urban trolley and tram lines were eliminated, and where you can drive 40 miles in any direction from the city center and find nothing but continuous suburban sprawl and gridlocked traffic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. YES--electing representatives who actually CARE about mass transit
unlike the yokels running this city, who refer to people who use mass transit as "transients" and don't give a DAMN that it takes 4 buses and 2 1/2 hours to get many places. of course, none of these bastards actually rides a bus, and they demonstrably do no give a S***
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frankenforpres Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. population density
is just not there.


it already exists where it makes sense.


sad state of affairs
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Raze all of the subdivisions and move everyone back closer to the cities.
One of the reasons mass transit is impractical in most of the US is because of low population density; decades of misguided development have made it an unviable option in much of the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. You Want to Seize Everybody's Homes And Cram them Into…
…what, exactly? Public housing projects? I'm sure that will be really popular with the formerly-middle class.
I suppose most of them won't have much choice after you've seized their only significant asset and driven them into bankruptcy.
It won't be too popular with their mortgage bankers, either.
The folks who already live in the city won't like what's going to happen to their rents with even more competition for housing in the city,
and they may not get along too well with their new formerly-suburban neighbors either.

A lot of Americans simply aren't city people. It's a neurological sort of thing.

That is why many of our ancestors moved to the "new world". Europe was too crowded for them.

People who aren't city people have been coming here for over 300 years.

It's a big country. We need to figure out how to get people around it more efficiently. It can be done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Didn't say I wanted to;
it was a response to the original poster's question of how one would make mass transit a practical alternative to driving in the US. (Sarcasm tends to be hard to pick up on in a text-only medium.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kansas City is a western styled city?
I think you all have to figure out what works for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I might be using the wrong term...
spread out, sprawling, high need for a car, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. I know it works pretty well here in Portland Metro...
but it sucked big time in Phoenix.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seg4527 Donating Member (851 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. live close to downtown
serious. here in minneaoplis, if i didn't live so close to downtown, i dont' know what i'd do. i'm 3 blocks or less away from 6 major bus routes that take me nearly anywhere i need to go. and only about a 5 minute bus ride from the light rail, which is convenient and cool.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. That Would Get Expen$ive in $an Francisco or New ¥ork
Edited on Mon May-01-06 11:36 PM by AndyTiedye
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. I am forced to take public transportation because I can't drive.
Edited on Mon May-01-06 10:38 PM by DanCa
Let me tell you the easy answer we need more busses and they need to cover a larger area of operation. This has been my problem from to the get go. I do appreciate what I have and I realize that there are more people than me but I dont like waitting to be picked up by the bus for an hour or so after my doctor's appointment. I am sure that once you make public transportation more accessible the more people would use it. And lets not forget that there are some towns out their that dont have public transportation at all.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. More people have to want it...
and it has to lose the stigma of being only for "poor people."

How we get there is not easy to answer.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. First, we have to stop all development that is contrary to mass transit.
Developers usually don't have any long term concern for what they're developing. It's usually just a project to make a profit. They generally see anyone who delays or cuts into their profit as the bad guy, even if doing so would benefit everyone else in the area. Not all developers are without a conscience, but you can count on money being the primary motivator in most cases. At any rate, it is unlikely that they will be considering the area's future mass transit needs. Using regulation and better planning when zoning for further development would be a good start.

Once the problem is prevented from getting worse, we can address areas, such as the capital of the state of Florida, that were very poorly planned with regards to growth and mass transit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. Ok, 3rd time posting. Mass transportation IS our answer.
I have posted this suggestion/idea before, but it is definitely germane to the gas price situation that I believe will not get better soon and I really think we should be pursuing other means of transportation.

Anyone who has ever been to Europe and Asis has had the unique experience of riding their rail system which is great. Their trains go to every nook and cranny of almost every country. Just walk out of your house, down the street and grab the train.

I am think we should seriously explore this as a solution to paying at the pump. Why can’t we have a type of commuting system w/ high-speed (186 MPH) trains? We could have excellent transportation, inexpensive commuting and new jobs!

Because I am disabled, it is difficult for me to write a long post. But hey DUers, what do you think? I think it would be a great issue to run on in the congressionals or 2008.

Here’s what the TVG French trains look like. Nice, eh?





-----------------
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bus only lanes, light rail, employer incentives.
No point in taking the bus if you're stuck in the same traffic that everyone else is in, or so I've been told. Mass transit has to be comfortable, fast and cheap to get people out of their cars. If there aren't enough buses, and people are sardined in, they'll do anything to avoid buses. If they'll be just as late for work, then the convenience of driving will win. If a bus pass costs more than the monthly gas for the car (not wear and tear and insurance - people pay those anyway), people won't use the bus. And when transit service is bad, people won't vote for more money (in terms of bonds) to improve it because they don't see a benefit. Individuals may be smart and altruistic, but people as a group are dumb, selfish and not interested in the good of the group, so mass transit has to be appealing to the most knuckle-dragging asshat out there.

My husband's employer gives us 20% of our bus passes back, and my former employer paid for our bus passes. They got a tax break from both the state and the feds and the city for giving the benefit.

Light rail is a better choice for transit - cleaner, cheaper in the long term, safer - but it requires a much higher investment up front, so municipalities have to have a bond policy in place, and the community has to be willing to pay for it.

It really should be a municipal asset, like power and telephony used to be, and like wireless access may be in the future. Putting it in the hands of an independent, for-profit entity is a recipe for strikes, service cuts and poor service.

Regional districts are critical; we live in Boulder, outside of Denver, and the metro area has a regional transit district, even though there are several counties in the district. Denver has good transit, if only because the transit authority has been in place since before the auto manufacturers started buying out bus and trolley companies.

I'm coming to like the ideas of PRTs (Personal Rapid Transit - Seattle is looking at developing it) because the idiots are more likely to vote for things like this when they are assured they won't have to come in contact with liberals, women, people with skin colors that differ from their own, or other such "undesirables" but they really only work in urban cores.

But here's the big thing: Sprawling, western-style cities are going to have to die. We don't have the water or the energy or the materials to continue to duplicate services every 10 miles, and for everyone to have a quarter acre, a 3 car garage and a pretty green lawn. We just don't. Phoenix metro has a tenth of the water that Denver metro has, and uses more than twice what Denver metro uses (though the populations are close in size). That can't continue. We have got to stop building over our farmland and forests, and we have to stop having so many kids, and just get used to not driving to do everything.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. trains and monorails would be my suggestion
it would take a lot of effort and co-operation but it can be done.

Bullet trains for long distance-transfer to
suburbs-downtown connector or
suburbs-business park connector.
In town another connected loop system

Tokyo
http://www.jref.com/practical/transportation_tokyo.shtml
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ReaderSushi Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. May not be possible.
Most North American cities, especially those west of the Mississippi, developed in the post World War II period during the proliferation of the automobile. The result of that is a lack of sufficient density required for public transportation except in the city cores which were built up prior to the spread of vehicles.

The best they might be able to do is provide mass transit for the city cores and the adjacent neighborhoods, I don't see how more than that is really practical.

A further problem involved is the politics, many elected officials view mass transit as jobs programs so it might be built according to influence instead of need.

But I must say, as a New Yorker, I heart the subways.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. Bike to/on Train/Bus, Small electric Car/Golfcart to Train, Telecommute
We are more spread-out than Europe, where people tend to live in dense cities.

We need a transportation system that can get us from where we live to where we need to go. And home again. And not take all day to do it.

The conventional wisdom is that this is impossible with our population density,
because most of us don't have any public transport within walking distance.

Suburban densities can easily support bike-to-train or golfcart-to-train or small-electric-car-to-train.
None of these are rocket science.

The main limitation on bike-to-train is secure bicycle parking. Not hard to do, takes far less space than parking that many cars, etc.
Some trains and buses allow bikes onboard, which offers the option of using the bike at both ends, further extending the reach of transit.
If Bush** bombs Iran and the pumps here in California run dry the next week, that's how I'll be getting around.

Electric cars are only difficult if you expect the range and speed of full-blown automobiles.
Smaller, shorter-range vehicles would take less parking space than current cars, and could run of electricity, much of which might be generated by solar panels on the roof. Something like this or even smaller: http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~serl/UltraCommuter.html

Telecommuting is how I get to work most of the time. Zero energy commute.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
25. Easiest Immediate Solution: a F***load of Buses and Shuttles
we already have a massive road infrastructure in place, might as well use it before updating major rail lines.

the biggest problem with buses is that there's a fed gov't req. that all gov't agencies (state, county, city, etc) that take fed money must buy a percentage of those elephant sized big buses. for many communities such buses are impractical and regular shuttles could maintain the needs for the subdivision. in fact, it would be more efficient to get them to nexus transit sites where big buses gather more regularly. but some corporation needs its kickback.

there's several good things about buses and shuttles answer. first, it's immediate. the infrastructure is right there, right now. the shuttles are right there, right now. second, it saves gas by the sheer fact of more riders in a single vehicle. it's a multiplier of however many seated equaling removing that many individual cars, roughly. most cars are 1 person per vehicle, which is grossly inefficient. but this is applicable to all mass transit.

third, there's many alternative fuels for buses and shuttles at the moment. whole towns either run off of natural gas, methane, electric, etc. Davis, CA (my old college town) has a bus system that pretty much runs off of methane, and the methane is derived from the local landfill of the town and campus. in fact, they also drive in large pipes into the landfill and take out this methane (which is being created and aired out anyway. y'know, can't stop composting...) and using it to power a bit of the town as well, street lights and such.

fourth, it can be managed easier, and be remanaged more flexibly, than rail installations. this is a huge boon. you can find that certain routes lose popularity in time, as towns go through their natural population redistributions. this way you don't have to keep building rail to accomodate each nook and cranny, all you gotta do is to re-assign parts of the fleet accordingly -- or even redraw some routes wholesale.

fifth, if using shuttles or small cabs, can be redirected into a modest taxi service. granted some cities' cab companies should be left well enough alone, they are efficient for the needs of the community and the gov't doesn't really need to intervene. but some areas are so distant, and so meager, from the major urban hubs that cab service is all but an impossibility, unless you make a huge income. just making the cab come 3 suburban cities out of the way starts to rack up the cost fast. what could be better is county subsidized shuttle and cab services that have regular routes, but also a spare contingent of the fleet that accomodates cab-like service. i.e. you step outside of the supermarket, but you are 2 miles from the major bus stop by the library/city hall. 2 miles with a shopping cart of groceries (americans buy roughly a weeks worth at a time, unlike europe and japan. this can't be fixed, due to the low density of suburbia, part of suburbia's inherent flaw) is pretty intense and unrecommended. but imagine calling on a cell phone and getting a shuttle or sedan service, split with another shopper if available, and getting door-to-door partially subsidized (aka. reasonably priced) taxi service.

sixth, implementation of such projects would immediately assist in unemployment issues. in fact, even small and dying communities can get a boost from this. it's a working class job, and that helps the economy in terms of consumer spending. and it isn't ridiculously specialized, so even the non-higher education crowd can make a decent living (if it is payed for adequately). also, it doesn't leave the employed so divorced from their community; they can do their job locally and have a normal commute back home. no 4 hour commutes. a possibly good management system would be large buses and shuttles for whole counties, while having shuttles and sedans servicing cities, possibly even just neighborhoods.

seventh, it revitalizes those who would normally be cut off from a full and interactive civic life due to our obsessive car culture. we already have elderly and disabled shuttles in many towns, but i think it's a project worth expanding to as many towns as possible. something most people don't realize, but as poor as our mass transit facilities may be compared to japan and europe, we are excellent when it comes to accomodations for the disabled in many ways. when visiting europe and japan (and elsewhere in the world) i was stunned what i took for granted in the level of independence our disabled and elderly had in facilities that accomodated them. it was so hard to find a kneeling bus, or train platforms flush and level with the train, or consistent elevators and networks of information letting you know which are in service, ramps, wide doorways, bathrooms, sinks, paper towel/hand drier, and ramped sidewalks in europe and japan at the same level that i experience daily in northern california and much of elsewhere in america. but the big trouble seems to be getting people to the facilities. everything is so spread out. so if we could get more service times, and on-call taxi-like services, we could easily help more people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robbie Michaels Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
26. I wish I had the answer
In general, mass transit in San Diego sucks for the same reasons why yours isn't up to snuff. Residents are so spread out it's impractical to use it instead of your vehicle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
27. k, i didn't directly answer the management issue...
Edited on Tue May-02-06 02:04 AM by NuttyFluffers
a city the size of Kansas City should be managed with a 3, possibly 4, tiered transit organization.

1st level should be highest priority, travel the longest distances, and transport the largest amount of people per leg. This is a job for the phatty-ass huge big buses. depends on the city, but first i'd try to divide the city into quadrants. then place a node in the center of each quadrant. next i would draw a line from each of the 4 nodes to each of the other nodes. this should produce an 'X' in a box drawing, providing 6 major metro routes. last, i would place the large buses of the fleet on these routes and try to run them at least every 20-30 min, and more during rush hours.

the logistics for the nodes, and none for the center or other areas, is we want to bring the outskirts back into the fold. this is where the majority of commuter traffic comes from, and this should be the area we attempt to alleviate first. attack the problem's heart, ignore the sniping politics, the rest will fall into place. make the farthest corners "nearer."

2nd level would be shuttles servicing major lines within quadrants. find the main arterial boulevards and run shuttles along them, preferrably running about every 5 minutes, or less. flood the streets with shuttles. if possible, do an asterisk pattern emerging from the 1st tier nodes. every so many miles do a circle within the asterisk all the way to the edges of the asterisk. these are rough equivalents, though, so don't imagine straight lines, just generalities.

3rd level would be the smaller shuttles and sedans that would service neighborhoods. some housing tracts (on public streets, not gated communities. that's a legal thing i won't touch here) are enormous and definitely need smaller service to fill in the details. in the 2nd tier nodes you'd have a focii of shuttles and sedans that service particular communities. in fact, you can possibly organize this most intimate level to be on-call basis to pick people up from the edges of the community and return them to its designated 2nd tier node. for grocery shopping and basic errands people would mostly need 3rd level, possibly 2nd level.

4th level would be using spare fleet along with disabled modified (modified for sole disabled use -- i've seen it exist. it's not really meant for able bodied citizens. disabled accessibility is wholly expected throughout all tiers of the fleet) fleet for door-to-door service. essentially taxi-service. i don't know if KC has a taxi company (i'm sure it does), but some places really don't because the demand is so low. the problem arrives with where to center the taxi company, and where to center wait areas for taxis. utilizing 3rd level as a partial on-call basis would partially alleviate this issue; basic jurisdiction has been designated. but having spare, currently unoccupied, or disabled-ready members of the 3rd level fleet prepared for 4th level duty would ease many things. then you can have on-call neighborhood door-to-door service, and eliminate a lot of need for routine errand traffic (and its subsequent rate of higher accidents, i believe).

issues of luggage is easy to accomodate, the solution has been implemented in japan. have a service that takes your luggage from your home and drops it off at your destination. it's kinda spooky, but you can have someone take your luggage from departure hotel, station, or home, and deliver it to the destination hotel, station, or home, for a modest fee. basically, processing is handled a few days/hours in advance and then once fixed you can pretty much forget it. amazing.

issues of heavy shopping from 1 side of the city to the other can be accomodated by door-to-door service, or by using the store's shipping service. though, one could always try to carry it onto several mass transit transfers. even then, in such a case one could use their own car. who'd begrudge someone transporting 200 lbs. of special lake bed gravel from clear across town in a car?

like the body, and nature, division of labor into high, med, low, and specialized rates would be the best approach to alleviation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC