Poll: Do you support getting better control of the Southern U.S. border

[Clarkie1]

Whether you are for immediate amnesty, a path to citizenship, or another response to the the current situation, do you believe an important first step is to gain better control of our borders...and no, I am not talking right-wing minutemen here.

[gordontron]

1. just not a complete fence

I hate that idea

[Clarkie1]

3. I don't like the visual either...so fences don't make good neighbors? n/t

[JVS]

9. A ditch with a steep nothern side, so that climbing would be difficult

:shrug:

[Clarkie1]

2. I think I'm seeing a siginificant trend here...n/t

[Clarkie1]

4. O.K...this could be a winning issue for us. How do we better control our

borders? We need creative ideas, and I know there are a lot of creative people on DU.

[Broken_Hero]

5. I'm not sure...

but one of the first things I would do, is do a jobs audit, of a good portion of the largest employers, to ascertain, that they are hiring legal citizens, and work my way from there....

I am not a technology buff, but i'm sure there has to be something out there, that can be used, in order to know, when somebody crosses the border, or some gizmo like that(reaching for straws, yes)....

[Clarkie1]

8. That's a start! If Democrats come up with a less expensive, more humane,

more effective way than the Republicans to better secure our borders, I think that will help the image of the party tremendously and win a lot of votes.

I'm sure we can do it.

[JVS]

6. Release the hounds!

:sarcasm:

Actually, a fence or a ditch might be a useful method. Passive blocades are more humane than active.

[mike_c]

7. what do you mean by "better control of our borders...?"

Sealing the vast empty space across much of the southern U.S.? Building an apartheid wall, like Israel? Would you make it like the Berlin wall, with minefields, freefire policies, razor wire mazes, and so on? Do you mean make additional ports of entry to provide easier, more flexible border crossings?

For the record, I don't think any border control approach will work. People move more or less like molecules along concentration gradients, only the gradients in this case are social gradients like economic disparity, population pressure, hunger, envy, oppression, and greed. Any barrier's permeability is a function of it's length and the strength of the gradients that drive diffusion across the barrier. That long empty stretch of border is already a big permeability problem, but biology offers an important lesson-- the best way to control border permeability is to control the strengths of the gradients driving diffusion across the barrier. Keep the gradients weak, and the flux across the barrier will diminish. But it is not possible to make a barrier impermeable for any length of time-- it's impermeability inevitably strengthens the driving gradients until pressure against it becomes intolerable. That's why the Berlin wall ultimately fell, and it only lasted as long as it did because it was relatively short.

[Clarkie1]

10. I agree disparity is the driving force, much like osmosis.

Trying to address the economic disparity can be part of the overall solution, I think. But I don't think we need just throw our hands up and say there is no point in trying at least to control the flow, if indeed we do wish to control the flow.

[LaPera]

11. I favor a large moat, with spiders & crocodiles and mannequins resembling

Rush Limbaugh bending over...all along the length of the moat.

Oh yeah...I forgot the cannons!

[Clarkie1]

12. How long is the border, approximately...2,000 miles or so? n/t

[Sinti]

13. Better border control, yes, but that alone will not fix the problem

We need a multi-tiered approach. Border control, enthusiastic enforcement of labor laws, living wages, and we need to stop the disease that causes these people to come here to look for work. The economy of our southern neighbor should not be what it is. I don't suggest giving them money, but pressure to do right by their population is the least we can do. Obviously, we can't do that with this admin - the pot can call the kettle black all day, the kettle isn't listening, and if he is he's laughing.

If we were to implement strong labor law enforcement and fair/living wage laws in this country, we could really twist arms down there, particularly given that much of their industry used to be our industry, think Ford, GM, etc. They sell that stuff here, therefore we have a hell of a stick to use as leverage. JMHO

Edited to add:
NO FENCE! We're not East Germany in the Soviet era. Fences are generally built to keep people in, and rarely work at keeping them out.

[Clarkie1]

14. I agree securing the border is only part of the solution.

And I don't like fences, either.

Perhaps a 2000 mile road along the border, well lighted with sensors, with friendly mobile border patrol folks stationed every 500 feet or so? That would be about 20,000 employees, I think.

Edit: As an act of goodwill, perhaps we could hire recent immigrants for the border patrol jobs?

Edit #2: As a further act of international good will, provide the government of Mexico with funds to station Mexican border patrol agents on their side of the border as well. This would help the Mexican economy, right?

[Sinti]

17. Even sensors could be overcome with tunnels, better than a fence though

It's a large problem, more enforcement is needed to be certain. But, the immigration problem we have is IMO a symptom of a much larger disease. The disease itself to me seems to be the commoditization of labor in general. No demand for cheap labor == many fewer illegal immigrants. A strong international union movement might be one part of a cure, a non-governmental one.

[mike_c]

16. I think it's important to understand that the U.S. is a full partner...

...in the economic exploitation of mexicans in Mexico. We are directly responsible for many of the economic policies and specific problems that keep mexicans in grinding poverty and drive them to the U.S.-- where other economic exploitaton uses them like dogs. It isn't enough to simply suggest that "our neighbor to the south" must amend its economic policies. Look at the fate of virtually EVERY central and south american government that has EVER tried to improve the lot of its people instead of concentrating power and wealth in the hands of a homegrown oligarchy and the foreign corporate interests of the United States.

[Clarkie1]

18. Mexico shares responsibility as well. They need to fix the corruption

that is a big contributer to driving their economy in the tank. A lower birthrate would be helpful as well environnmentally and economically.

[Sinti]

21. Well said. We both need to change.

I didn't mean to imply that we were not a major contributor to their issue, and it's not just Mexico. We need to wrest control of our destinies from the huge, and growing Goliath of the (mostly multinational) corporations. Cut throat capitalism needs to die if we are ever to have a decent and sustainable standard of living for people in both of the Americas (as well as elsewhere in the world, but that's another story.)

[onehandle]

15. I picture a wall. 12 feet high and 4 feet thick.

Two walls actually. With 100 yards in between for clear shots. This "no man's land" would be heavily mined.

We'd have to give it an intimidating name. Maybe name it after a famous city with a sad history.

How about Berlin? Yes, Berlin would do nicely. We could call it...."The Wall of Berlin".

[JVS]

19. Hey, are you knocking the Anti-fascist Protective Wall?

[onehandle]

22. I'm quite serious. As for successful intruders. I picture camps...

I'm sure the Minutemen are Way ahead of me on that thought.

[Clarkie1]

20. No, something far more humane is in order.

No shooting or mines allowed.

To accept that we cannot gain control of our borders is to give up on our ability to be a sovereign nation. I think there has to be a better way.

[Sinti]

23. Good poll, BTW n/t

[mike_c]

24. to resort to jingoism is to stop seeking effective solutions....

:rofl: C'mon, that's a ridiculous statement in the present context. True if we can't repel invading armies intent on conquest perhaps, but it's a bit over the top to suggest that poor brown working people constitute much of a threat to american sovereignity!

[Clarkie1]

25. Well, I think to resort to calling that statement jingoistic

is a way of trying to save face instead of saying you can't think of anything useful to contribute to the discussion.

Nothing personal...

[mike_c]

26. you really liked the way it sounded, huh....

:hi:

[JVS]

27. Now we all wait to see who get's the last shot in this pissing contest!

:popcorn:

[Clarkie1]

29. We have nearly 9 out of 10 Du'ers supporting better control of the border.

I think trying to figure out the best way to achieve that is worth more than a pissing contest.

[leftofthedial]

28. we should gather up all the dog shit in America and ship it south

we could then spread it all along the border

there would be so much dogshit that no one could possibly cross without stepping in it.

that'll keep them brown-skinned, cheap working so and so's out!

[Clarkie1]

30. That kind of language is not helpful at all in reaching a consensus. n/t

[leftofthedial]

34. no solution has been proferred that will work, save such massive

social aid and reform in Latin America that the entire continent achieves socio-economic parity

that will cost more than the Iraq occupation and will require a generation

I think my proposal is much cheaper and probably more effective than any "solution" I've read here.

Blanket amnesty? The political cost of alienating all those Joe Sixpacks and Bubbas will be too high. Build a wall? Laughable.

[expatriot]

31. poor choices...

you have two choices:

getting control of the border is an important first step.

getting control of the border is not important.


Of course, who but an anarchist would be against "getting control over the border." I believe that getting control of the border is vital not a "first step." It must be done in tandem with other major steps...

1. An aggressive campaign to stabilize the economies of southern Mexico and Central America.
2. The creation of a guest worker program in which participants can build "a resume towards citizenship."

[Clarkie1]

32. Well, I thought there could be more than one "first step."

In tandem, as you say. It reads "an important first step," not "the iimportant first step."

[400Years]

33. so you want to live in a prison?

[Clarkie1]

37. No I don't, why do you ask? n/t

[Finder]

35. How about immigration offices every 50 miles or so...

where you can walk in and get temporary passes and/or apply for a working visa? Potential employers can sponsor. Similar to the way they have it set up to visit the Bahamas. Bring a birth certificate or something signed by a notary for admittance. I don't think many would even mind being fingerprinted. It will help to at least document who is coming and going.

This will not solve the problem but it will give those who are just coming to work or see their family a way to do so legally.
Will cut the undocumented worker numbers by 75 percent.

[Clarkie1]

36. Kick for those who missed it. n/t

[Clarkie1]

38. Anybody not vote in this one yet? Kick.

[Pushed To The Left]

39. Good poll! The results thus far prove that most people agree

that the borders should be secured. The "amnesty" debate has become the ultimate wedge issue! If Congress would write a law that solely tackled border security, while agreeing to handle the other parts of the immigration issue separately, it would have very strong bi-partisan support. If the borders were truly secure, I think there would be less division when it came to the other issues involving immigration.