They are demanding to become citizens...BS

[Acebass]

You come here illegally and now demand citzenship?!...
This is extortion and we'd better not pay it...
I don't agree with the current legislation but I don't agree with this either...you don't go to any country and demand citizenship, it's something your granted once you've gone through the process...
This is insane!...

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Normally they chatter, joke and play music with a driving beat but on Monday "Tweety Bird" and "The Baboon" helped fill the streets of Los Angeles with hundreds of thousands of immigrants demanding to become citizens.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060502/ts_nm/usa_immigration_radio_dc;_ylt=AuwMlKDpgnwTOjfHep7edflZ.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

[mdmc]

1. let them be citizens!

come on!

[Acebass]

3. Why?...

Illigal is illigal and that means against the law, sorry no dice!...

[mdmc]

8. the law is immoral

some laws, such as the slavery laws, are wrong, and it is right to violate them. I think that Mexicans should be treated like cubans. And that cubans should be treated as americans.

Since the GOP wants them to be felons, I want them to be free. And to vote.

[The Traveler]

18. I don't follow your logic

Is it a moral requirement that we resolve the social and economic injustice of other nations by taking in large numbers of their people in an uncontrolled fashion?

[mdmc]

22. yes

that is what jesus would do.

I actually believe that we have all the housing, medical, and nutritional resources available FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD within the state of Iowa. Poverty is the result of greed and lack of empathy.

[ClintonTyree]

43. How do you know "what jesus would do"......

that's as crazy as a fundy opining what the lord would do. NOBODY knows "what would jesus do"? :eyes: Get down off your high horse and rejoin reality. We're a nation of laws and they're being stepped on by many; Bush, Mega-Corporations and illegal immigrants to name a few.

Don't for one second claim to know "what jesus would do". :eyes:

[Squeech]

83. Matthew 25:31-46

Okay, technically that may not be what Jesus would do.

But it's certainly what he told us to do.

[ClintonTyree]

168. You're assuming........

that jesus actually said that. You offer in proof a passage from a book written decades after jesus' death (if there indeed WAS a jesus to begin with) by men who got the stories that were passed down orally from generation to generation. I don't call that proof, I call that blind faith. It wouldn't be admissible in a court of law, let's put it that way. ;)

[Squeech]

194. Of course

but then, by that standard, there is no Jesus except for the one created in the image of our own best intentions, which means that if we really hope to call ourselves a Christian people, we really ought to behave by that standard.

Or more to the point, if we're not willing to act by that standard, we have no fucking right to call ourselves a Christian nation.

I don't call myself a Christian, but I agree with Gandhi in this matter. How does FSM feel about kindness to strangers?

[mdmc]

233. turn the other cheek bro

love thy neighbor

[ldf]

257. turn the other cheek

gets you nothing but two bruised cheeks.

turn the other cheek teaches no one anything except that the owner of the cheek is a masochist, and the bully can always get away with it because the masochist LOVES it.

it's a nice sentiment, but not very realistic. makes for great propaganda, though.

[mdmc]

260. true

[mondo joe]

61. Unless Jesus is voting, he gets no say in US policy.

And to my knowledge he doesn't get a vote.

[Acebass]

68. Good point...

[Jawja]

89. Jesus is NOT VOTING??

I thought he regularly voted GOP.... :shrug:

[JVS]

179. He never registered to vote. He did say that his kingdom is not of this..

world. This appears to be a renunciation of politics on the local, state, national, and international levels

[cherokeeprogressive]

261. Half of the families in my county have a Jesus

And when they're a big enough voting bloc, Southern California becomes Northern Mexico overnight.

I work for the Registrar of Voters, and that's as plain as the nose on my ugly Native American face...

[shadowknows69]

72. Jesus would inspire them to stand up

against their own government and demand better treatment.

[Sparkman]

119. Jesus was crucified by Romans, for "ILLEGAL" activity!! At the Rabi's wish

[JVS]

184. Just like he told the people to stand up and take control here?

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Matthew 6:25-34

[shadowknows69]

198. One of the reasons I left Christianity

I sought the kingdom and never got issued my Jesus brand Star Trekish fabricator unit. So I became a pagan and went to work ;-)

[dysfunctional press]

77. what jesus would do, if he were real-

he would not have broken the law by coming here in the first place.
he would stay in his own country and try to improve it from within.

[aikoaiko]

169. Jesus kicked the crap out of people who disrespected "god's" law.

[shadowknows69]

201. I remeber him messing up the moneychangers in the temple

but I don't recall too many other examples of the Big J "kicking the crap out of people" Was this after he made the water into wine at the wedding in Cana?

[snooper2]

202. that is a very simplistic view of the World...

nt

[mdmc]

237. it is the truth

I actually believe that we have all the housing, medical, and nutritional resources available FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD within the state of Iowa. Poverty is the result of greed and lack of empathy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

229. The worldwide GDP per capita is about $4500

That means that if you take all the stuff that is made by everyone in the world (including the US) and divide it up equally, that's $4500 per person per year, from which each government will take a share.

Beliefs notwithstanding, the state of Iowa can't handle it.

[mccoyn]

105. If our country is much better off, then yes.

To deny immigration is greedy, plan and simple. We have more than them and we would have to lose some of it for them to be better off.

[shadowknows69]

125. Or....

Their own government would have to provide them a better living if they demanded it there. It's not like we've outlawed immigration but there are legal channels. Why is that such a hard concept to get behind. This country can't afford to take a perpetual supply of the "Teeming masses" anymore. It's simple economics.

[mccoyn]

130. The legal channels aren't very good.

They are designed to limit the amount of people who can come in and share our wealth. If we cared at all about immigrants we would reestablish checkpoints where people can immigrate cheaply.

[shadowknows69]

137. "... limit the amount of people who can come in and share our wealth"

Um..maybe it makes me selfish for me and my family but good. You've illustrated my point well. About 40% of the citizens of this country don't have very muchb of this country's "wealth" at all. In fact many are like me and mine on the razors edge of poor(IE one less paycheck a week and things like food, utilities and gasoline go bye bye.)Open borders is insanity. I'm all for more liberal legislation than we have now but too many people have been waiting too long and doing things the right way (legal way) to just start handing out free passes.

[LaPera]

154. 500 million others around the world want to come here...Let them ALL in

and demand citizenship...maybe a billion people want to come here to work, let them all in and demand citizenship...Fuck it that illegals are breaking unions,(lowering wages), and are a huge burdens to our social structure...So what, the corporations and republicans love it...As long as they come illegally to work and demand citizenship that's fine.

[JVS]

175. What is immoral about citizenship laws?

[goclark]

227. Funny how important the word LEGAL is to some

It just floors me that it is so important to "follow the law," and yet The RepubliCON Crooks just keep blatantly breaking the law EVERY DAY!

It was against the law for Rushboy to doctor shop for all those thousands of pills.
Yet we allow Rush to define what the LAW means that we should follow everyday.

It was/is against the law to TORTURE and LIE about WMD and to INVADE a country that did not deserve to be attack.

It was against the law for the RepubliCONS to steal election after election and even the ultimate source of Law, the SCOTUS, said it was perfectly alright to hold an election that was controlled by the computer switch of a man named KARL.

It is against the law to shoot someone and not report it for more than 24 hours, let we let CHENEY get away with it and even make jokes about him doing so.

No thank you, I'm with you, the way I base my reality is "since the GOP wants them to be felons,I want them to vote."

[Ms. Clio]

244. It becomes positively hiLARious if you read post #107 n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

228. And they should each get a puppy. Or a pony. n/t

[Jawja]

88. Yes, let them be citizens

by following the current law to become one.

[DS1]

225. No

They can apply, just like everyone else.

[SammyWinstonJack]

241. So I want to go to Canada, but I don't think they will allow me to stay

there illegally, right? How about Germany or Italy for France or any other Country? Laws are laws, right? Come on! Mexico won't allow me to stay in Country without sufficient means of income. Doesn't Mexico have a policy where one can stay for six months and then have to leave for a day, before returning? Doesn't one have to meet a recent financial requirement to remain in Mexico? How about Canada? Same deal, right? Doesn't Canada have a requirement for work status, also?

[KAT119]

267. In Mexico illegal immigrants are deported, imprisoned or shot immediately.

The border w/ Guatemala is heavily militarized, and all Mexican citizens have the right to arrest any one trying to take their jobs, use their social services who are not strictly tourists. Period.

If only the illegal marchers would march in their own country against their own gov't and demand their own citizen rights of jobs @ fair wage- and safe conditions-it would benefit the legal citizens of both countries.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. Demanding to become citizens or a plea to not be arrested on a

federal charge & be left alone like before this stupid distraction/flap?

[mike_c]

4. it's a bad law that needs to be changed....

Just like it was once illegal for women to vote, or for black children to attend white schools, and so on. African slaves were once "illegal" unless supervised by their owners in most of the U.S. unless they had emancipation papers, which were hard to get and few ever got them. Hmmm, sounds like a "visa...." There is nothing sacred about the law, and some laws simply don't deserve to be obeyed. Immigration laws really challenge the essential meaning of what it is to be an American, IMO.

I think anyone who has come to America, works to support their family and make a better life for themselves and for the communities that their labor enhances ought to be welcomed. Make them citizens? Damned right, and we should be proud that they want to join our little club.

[Acebass]

10. For one thing...

your womens sufferage is apples and oranges...women were legal citizens at the time...no that wont wash...

Blacks were forced here by white slavers they had no choice and it was the right thing to do to immancipate them, besides there was plenty of room then for everyone...

Our little club is our country, and we didn't send out invitations to join, they came here illigally, try that argument in any other country and see how much play time it gets...

Citizenship is a process, you don't reward law breakers by giving them what they wanted. We have a process like every other country and if they can't understand that then go home and work to make their country better...

Your argument is weak...

[Triana]

52. You don't reward lawbreakers by changing the law for them...

...that's so - REPUBLICAN. Think about it. Think Tom DeLay.

Citizenship is a process. Illegals need to honor and go through that process. Or, they're breaking the law of a country they claim to want to be citizens of. That's not a very damn good start.

Furthermore, if they have the canastas to come HERE and raise Hell and protest -- why don't they go do that in Mexico? They ought to be ALL OVER Vincente Fox like white on rice. They can protest in the streets of MEXICO for better wages and working conditions, just as easily as they can do that here. Vincente Fox ought to give them a country they can live in and be proud of instead of shoving them all over here. THAT does not alleviate the problem. It just MOVES it -- to the US. And WE here have our own "leader" who has failed to give us a country we can be proud of -- we have our OWN job problems and illegals are adding to them. I understand their plight, but we can't be expected to accomodate them all until we hurt ourselves doing it. But, that's what has happened and that is what is expected -- and that is what they and the shithead employers who knowingly exploit them and treat them like garbage - are demanding we allow. I've heard some of the Mexicans say that the Southwest of the US used to be theirs and therefore they're entitled to immigrate here illegally, uncontrolled.

I don't think that's a good idea. It hasn't been a good idea for decades and it certainly isn't now. And, neither the Democrats OR the Republicans have decent immigration reform policies. They're more worried about CYA and getting/keeping votes than solving the problem.

And let's talk about Vincente Fox! Mr. Fox went so far as to ask the Mayor of San Diego to take the fence down there to make it easier for them to get over. Fox told them to 'be careful' not to piss people off too much here or they would lose their ability to be here illegally anymore and get work.

QUITE a problem-solving "leader" isn't he? Yea. Just SHOVE your people into another country rather than fixing the damn problems in your own and giving them a decent place to live. Vincente Fox - WHAT an ass. So the problems there existed before him? So did many of the problems here before The Decider took over. It's STILL Mr. Decider's responsibility to fix them - not that the brain-dead twit is capable of it. If he WAS he'd do away with NAFTA and CAFTA as a first step in fixing the immigration problem. But there isn't a single brain cell in that vacuum-packed idiot that could begin to understand that.

Imagine if every American who couldn't make enough money, was poor and exploited on the job or couldn't get a job (and there are a LOT of them) snuck into Canada to get better-paying jobs and then DEMANDED citizenship, even though they were there illegally.

What if all the poor, unemployed, underemployed here in the US went into Canada with that attitude. Would it fly? Nooooooooooooooo. I don't think so. It wouldn't fly in most countries. But we should put up with it here?

[Sparkman]

120. In the land of murders, thieves and liars,LAW MUST RULE! makes me laugh

The US is not a law abiding society, friend, it's based on killing innocents from it's inception to today,for their land, their treasure and for sport.

[shadowknows69]

128. Back to the "sins of the father" defense.

It's my fault that my European ancestors conquered the known universe. As soon as one sends me a boat ticket and gets me a job I'll go back to live in europe. No problem with that at all.

[Nadienne]

5. Can you be absolutely sure

that the media isn't spinning this a little?

Were all those immigrants gathered demanding to be citizens? Or were they protesting immigration laws? I'm sure some of those gathered are already citizens; they don't need to demand it again.

[Acebass]

6. Say someone sneaks in your back door...

All of a sudden they are eating out of you refrigerator and now they have taken up residence in your guest room, not only that they are demanding to be a permanent resident in your house...
I don't think so...

[sandnsea]

9. Say you wink wink invited them in

And let them live in the garage for 20 years in exchange for taking care of your lawn and household maintenance. At what point do they say, excuse me, when can I used the toilet and take a hot shower, like everybody else in this household.

[Acebass]

13. That is not my fault or my problem...

You are speaking to a root of this problem but it by no means entitles anyone to be rewarded with citizenship for evading the law, sorry wont work...
Unscrupulous businesses that do what you've suggested should be shut down and the owner thrown in jail, but grant citizenship no!...

[sandnsea]

21. It's YOUR game

You can't say it's not your problem when your game gets turned around on you. Nobody snuck in, they were invited in by a bunch of hypocrites who use them when it's convenient and then want to toss them aside like leftover meat loaf. It's your country, therefore it's your problem. Quit allowing the corporate powers manipulate you to turn worker against worker. I know Bush voters who aren't for throwing them out, now isn't that a hoot.

[Acebass]

48. It's you who are turning this into something it isn't...N/t

[otohara]

23. WWJLD

what would John Lennon do?

I noticed your avatar is Lennon. Why is that?

[Acebass]

49. He's dead I have no Idea what he would do...

I'm sure he'd see the logic in what I'm saying...

[otohara]

90. Channeling The Dead Are U?

maybe his Japanese widow might know.

She seems to admire dissenters and strives for peace and less human suffering.
http://nyartsmagazine.com/pages/nyam_document.php?nid=40&did=63

[Acebass]

101. If that were the case...

Then I could have given you the answer...do you just react or do you actually read whats written?

[otohara]

106. I'm sure he'd see the logic in what I'm saying...

sure about that?

[Acebass]

109. Now who's channeling?..

[otohara]

113. You Wrote It

so what's your point

[Acebass]

115. I wrote what?...what are you talking about?...n/t

[otohara]

203. Short Term Memory - Such A Problem For Us Aging Boomers

Your post #49
He's dead I have no Idea what he would do...
I'm sure he'd see the logic in what I'm saying...

[Name removed]

236. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[neoteric lefty]

11. or lets say that same person is

picking the vegetables in your garden, or cleaning your house that you live in, or fixing your car that you drive. What then? I think most of these people are not demanding to become citizens like you and many in the media portray. They are demanding not to be treated like felons for living and working in this country, and they want to become documented immigrants and ultimately have a path to citizenship down the road.

[Acebass]

14. you didn't read my post did you...

I don't agree with the proposed legislation either and have writen my congressman about it, but it doesn't changed the fact that illigals are...ILLIGAL!...and in this country when your doing something illigal you get punished not rewarded!

There is a process to go through, if you can't do that then I'm sorry..

By the way I do all those things for myself. Wealthy lazy bastards don't but then I feel they are a big part of the problem too...

[neoteric lefty]

93. Ok, I think the term you are looking for is illegals, not illigals

In a purely conceptual world, you have a point. There is a process to get into this country legally and everyone should go through that process. There is much up for debate about that process and whether or not it is a fair or expedient, but that is not the issue. The issue is that we live in the real world. Snapping your fingers and praying that the "brown" people will just go away isn't an answer. People love to bitch about the problem and not give any solutions.

There are 12-20 million people who are undocumented immigrants living in this country right now. There are many problems associated with having that many undocumented individuals in our country both for federal, state, and local governments as well as the individuals themselves. You can either try to deport them all (good luck with that) or allow them some documented status (not citizenship) and let them integrate further into our society and allow them a path to citizenship down the road. Let them pay taxes (they are already paying most of them), earn a decent wage, and try to provide a better life for their children than they had. These "illigals" are not so different from you or me. Most of them want to earn their little slice of the American dream.

[Acebass]

111. I didn't know this was a spelling bee...

I have a son-in-law who is one of your "Brown People", I have 2 beautiful Grandchildren who are, as you call them, "Brown People"...

My problem is with people doing something 'illegal' and expecting to be rewarded for it. It has nothing to do with skin color, it is you who are playing the race card...

[neoteric lefty]

122. ok, I'm sorry for using the term 'Brown' people

without a Southern twang. It was supposed to be a critique of many of the so-called "Minutemen" and other nativists that I have heard and read. Obviously it didn't pass muster. I didn't mean to offend you or your family, and I apologize if I did.

If you want to punish them, then go on right ahead. You stick to your crusade. The problem is that they are already here and we need to find the best solution for everybody in the situation. Almost nobody expects to be rewarded with citizenship, they are fighting and protesting for a chance to become a documented part of this country. They are already here and they are already a part of this land, why not let them come out of the shadows and be recognized? Most of the ones that want to become citizens of this country don't want it handed to them, they want to earn it. I know many people born in this country who have done little to "earn" the freedoms that they have.

Let me ask, what is your solution to the situation? Deport them? Keep them as a permanent lower-class? Give them documented status? What?

[Acebass]

132. I will fight for a persons rights I have and will in the future...

but as I said if your here illegally you have no rights, here that is.
I wish no one ill will but when I see Mexican flags and placards in Spainish thats where I draw the line...

[neoteric lefty]

138. what does that mean?

I'm trying to understand. Is it o.k. for them to stay here, as long as they only wave the Red, White, & Blue? Should they be allowed to stay with no rights or be kicked out? I am trying to grasp your stance because the only thing I know is that you don't like to see these people wave Mexican flags along side American ones.

What should be done with those individuals already here?

[Acebass]

149. That isn't even worth an answer...

[neoteric lefty]

162. ok, well I'll be here if you decide to change your mind. take care n/t

[ComerPerro]

76. That's about as idiotic as the whole "bully in the neighborhood" thing

that right wingers used to defend going to war with Iraq.

"Sure, hes just beating his wife and son now, but guess what? HE HAS A GUN AND HE IS GOING TO KILL YOU (maybe, possibly, sometime)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Acebass]

112. Do you understand analogy's...n/t

[ComerPerro]

206. obviously I do

and, as someone said downthread, its not YOUR house. Its OUR house.

Your just one of the millions of roommates.


So, maybe I should ask you, do you understand analogies?

[sandnsea]

7. They want a chance to go through the process

That's all. They aren't demanding instant citizenship, just a chance to earn it which they don't have now.

Honestly, I'm shocked at your attitude.

[neoteric lefty]

12. give him (or her) some more time on DU

and other progressive media sources. Maybe the other side of the argument will become a bit more "clear".

[Acebass]

16. Give who a little more time where?...

I have my opinion friend and it's based on logic not emotion. You have no idea who I am and I'll leave it at that...

[sandnsea]

24. I know this person

from another progressive board. That's why I'm shocked.

[Acebass]

65. I don't walk in lock step with anyone...

if you know me then you know I'm a rational person...this argument is not rational...lets stay on message here...Illigal!...thats the message...

[ClintonTyree]

44. I've been here at DU almost since it's inception........

and I totally agree with AceBass. There are certain channels you go through to become a citizen of this country. Making up your own rules then "demanding" citizenship is NOT one of those channels. We can't pick or choose which laws we'll obey (unless you're george bush ;) )Immigrants from other countries go through the proper process and there is little or no trouble in doing it. To illegally invade our country and then start demanding anything is ludicrous.

[kurth]

191. Permanent residency and naturalization rules have been around for DECADES

And they've served our country well, by letting countless people in and making them citizens. There are countless others who are waiting for their turn by obeying these same rules.

Now, just because a bunch of Mexican-flag waving FOREIGNERS demonstrated in the streets - FOREIGNERS who came here ILLEGALLY and who are staying here ILLEGALLY - we should change the rules for them?

[Acebass]

15. well honestly I'm shocked at yours too...

no one is denying them the same chance my son in law had when he came here from El Salvador, but he did it the right way...he didn't sneak in then demand to be a citizen...

[girl gone mad]

17. An attorney friend of mine works with..

a group that sponsors African refugees and works to get them legal status here. These people are true political refugees who face cerain imprisonment, even death, if they are deported. Unfortunately, many of them are deported because of the quotas. What kind of a message are we sending if we allow amnesty for Mexican immigrants who came here illegally?

[Acebass]

19. My point exactly...thank you...n/t

[mdmc]

25. the point being that those quotas are deadly

:shrug:

Let the Africans stay.

[Acebass]

47. you are not dealing in reality here...n/t

[mdmc]

234. the Africans shouldn't stay

why?

[IndyJones]

27. This is exactly true and I know of a couple this happened to.

It is very sad and very unfair. Mexicans don't get preferential treatment just because they want to demand it.

[sandnsea]

30. Unrealistic quotas

And often fueling the tensions in foreign countries that cause political refugees in the first place. We can't create the economic and political problems and then express shock when the consequences show up on our doorstep.

[sandnsea]

26. He married to get in?

He was a political refugee? What?

Most non-skilled immigrants don't have any channel available to them, but they know there's jobs here if they can get there. It's not their fault we've stacked the deck.

[Acebass]

53. If it's any of your business...

He came here on a work visa and became a citizen before he married my daughter...don't try and grab at straws he came here legally...
The people your taking about didn't, you can't justify it...

Illegal is illegal, we don't reward people for doing illegal things here...

[sandnsea]

97. You didn't answer the second

Political refugee?? Wealthy El Salvadoran, came to go to school? Had to be something because unskilled workers can't get it in.

And oh yes we do reward people for doing illegal thing here. Illegal businesses are rewarded every day. Should we revoke their citizenship when they're caught?

Don't blame the worker who is just a victim of this lop-sided corporate structure we've got going on.

[Nicole]

110. He is here illegally according to Acebass

See my post right below. It has a link to an Acebass quote concerning his illegal son in law.

[Acebass]

114. Thats really none of your business...

You claim to know me from somewhere, why is it I don't recongnize you? I don't pretend to be someone I'm not and if someone doesn't like who I am they can move on...

[sandnsea]

129. I know you

I donated $150 to Political Switchboard last year. Check into it. And maybe I need to do some follow-up checking of my own, considering I've heard some rumors about problems over there and ignored them.

[Acebass]

147. Well friend you didn't give it to me...

Come on over...

[sandnsea]

153. I have

I have posted there on occasion. Ask Brendan.

[Acebass]

157. I am no richer for you being there...

and whom should I say is asking?...

[sandnsea]

180. I didn't say you were

Tell him Sandy sent you. When I posted that I knew you, I was vouching for you, that I didn't think you were a freeper. Not threatening you. So I really don't get the "two can play that game" PM. And am beginning to wonder if I ever knew you at all.

[Acebass]

189. Evidently you didn't...but I sure know you..now

come slimming over there again... you wont get the reception you did last time...

[sandnsea]

193. So you've changed your mind?

Since you sent me this:

"I don't think we have much to worry from you so I've upgraded your membership so you are free to post anywhwere in the forum..."

[Acebass]

204. I sent that to Sandy...

I don't know who the fuck you are!

[sandnsea]

212. lol

Hellooo?? I said, tell Brendan Sandy sent you. :crazy:

No, not Sandra... Sandy. Me.

So what scary thing are you going to do that I'm supposed to be waiting for again??? I'm really shakin' here. :scared:

:rofl:

[Acebass]

215. You can't read either can you...

Who is Sandra...

btw what did you leave for I had a nice place for us to continue this discussion, but \you left

http://politicalswitchboard.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=9637&st=0&#entry52808

Your invited one and all come on over... lets play...

[sandnsea]

216. We're not having a discussion

Why would I want to go over there and waste more time.

Who is Sandra.. lol. That's a good one.

I'm done.

[Acebass]

221. Good!...

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

226. No but I bet you do

It is your forum after all.

:eyes:

[Acebass]

235. So if I don't agree with you on everything...

I'm a bad person. No it's not my forum it's our members forum. Maybe if you would have stopped by sometime you would know why I'm not Mr. NiceGuy anymore. You get stabbed in the back enough it makes you that way...
I'm used up now it's my turn...

[sandnsea]

238. #107 says it all

Seriously, fool me once and all of that.

[Acebass]

247. Fool you?...

[AbsoluteArmorer]

264. Hey Sandy....

.... nice to meet you here. I heard this is how Acebass treats some of his 'co workers' too. I also looked his site over. I also saw where he had deleted good posts and threads as he stalked and bashed his forum 'friends'. Those friends sent me proof via email of some of that stuff he does in his forum. I have a feeling you also know about this too. I'm fairly new in here but sure am learning quick how some of these guys like Acebass operates and thinks. Hypocrite comes to mind first, then manic control freak. I'm staying clear of this one much as I can. Nice work on your part though. Great responses.
:bounce:

[Nicole]

107. Your son in law is not here legally

You posted elsewhere that he was here illegally.

The father of my Grandchildren is here illigally, so I am not speaking without personal ramification, but my Grandchildren deserve for their father to be a legal resident not one that lives in fear of being nabbed and sent back to El Salvador. He has been here long enough to be granted citizenship without going back to El Salvador, but I still believe he should have a proceedure to go through to obtain that citizenship....

Look familiar to you? I found it at your forum

http://politicalswitchboard.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=9257

Your son in law is not a citizen, unless he has become one since April 10, 2006 when you posted that.

[sandnsea]

127. Well isn't that interesting n/t

[Acebass]

135. Yes it is at least you know where to find me...

[Nicole]

158. Why did you edit your post at the link I posted

Don't want people to see that you are lying here?

[Acebass]

171. Because I could...

The issue isn't me, my son in law or you for that matter unless your here illegally. Twist words all you want it still doesn't change the issue...


Least you know who I am no matter where I go. Can't say the same about you can I?

[Nicole]

177. Isn't that nice

I didn't twist any words. I posted your exact quote.

The father of my Grandchildren is here illigally, so I am not speaking without personal ramification, but my Grandchildren deserve for their father to be a legal resident not one that lives in fear of being nabbed and sent back to El Salvador. He has been here long enough to be granted citizenship without going back to El Salvador, but I still believe he should have a proceedure to go through to obtain that citizenship....

Here's the screen shot of your quote, before your edit.





Where exactly are the twisted words?

[Ms. Clio]

243. "illegal is illegal" or did some alter ego write those words???

so busted.

[Acebass]

134. Well excuse me for misspelling...

[Left Is Write]

136. She didn't mention any misspelling. She pointed out the contradiction.

In this thread, you state that your son-in-law is here legally and became a citizen even before he married your daughter.

In the quote above, you state that your "grandchildren's father" is here illegally.

So. Which is it?

[Acebass]

155. Excuse me he is a citizen..that should make him legal...

and this isn't about my son in law...

[Nicole]

159. Did he become a citizen since April 10?

This is about your son in law, since it's about illegals.

[Acebass]

167. this is about the gun thing isn't it?...

[Nicole]

173. No , it's about the lying thing

Next question?

[Splatter Phoenix]

190. Hmm.

Find out if Acebass has ever had intercourse with a woman in a blue dress, too.

[Ms. Clio]

240. hey, the law is the law

perjury is perjury, isn't it???

[Left Is Write]

205. No, it's not about him, but it IS about your credibility.

If he's a citizen, he's legal. So why did you say on the other website that he's illegal?

[Acebass]

213. What has my credibility got to do with anything?...

Lets talk about the persons credibility who brought that up. You see we have history her and I . you want to know what I'm about come and see. I don't answer to that person because she was part of a conspiracy. She was a mod at my web site she isn't anymore and she knows why.

While were at it who are you and are you to be trusted? See how ridiculous going down that road is.
I don't have to prove myself to you or anyone else. I've said it before I know who I am and I'm here to make a difference not friends.

Right now I'm wondering if political forums are a total waste of time..

[Left Is Write]

218. You don't have to prove anything to me...

but you ask what your credibility has to do with anything? When in the course of debate, most people prefer to deal with people who aren't going to bullshit them.

You were discussing illegal immigration in this country using your own family to illustrate your point of view. You put two conflicting stories out there. Who is going to take your point of view seriously when you appear to change your family's story at will?

I'm not interested in "conspiracies" against you.

[Acebass]

248. No I put one out there...

Others with motives other than debating this issue put the other one there. You can ask the members at political switchboard about me or even Common Ground Common Sense if thats not good enough then I don't know what I can do.
My son in law came here legally he has his citizenship now and if you want their address you can PM me and I'll be happy to give it to you and you can write to them.
Then of course this thread wasn't about my son-in-law was it?

[Nicole]

220. What a load of crap!

We don't have a history except for a few posts here at DU. I was never a mod at your website or involved in some conspiracy you may or may not have dreamed up. I visited your website by clicking on the link in your sig line.


My credibility isn't an issue here as I have only quoted your own words, backed up with a screen shot of those words AFTER you deleted them at your website.. Your credibility on the other hand is very much an issue since you are stating two very different things as fact. It's clear to see that you are misleading us for some reason. Why is that?

[Acebass]

249. Prove it!...

[AbsoluteArmorer]

251. You're onto something here

If I may, I also have been alerted to similar actions by others about the person you just addressed your responses to here. In fact, I have been shown, via email, several examples of that person's actions at 'his' forum in deleting threads and posts that were not offensive, but was done to protect their own acts. From what I was also told be those others who knows about him, in fact some threads were very well done and it appears that due to his own jealousy or plotting agendas, they were removed. It appears that you have correctly found this one out and there's seems to be some signs of mental disorder on occasions.

He has also (at least partly) caused a very good thread of mine in the military section here in DU to be locked. I was not given explanation as to why my thread was punished because of his and possibly another's actions in that thread.

I do agree with your questioning his merits as you have.

[Nicole]

146. I didn't mention any spelling errors

I mentioned a truth error. :rofl:

[Acebass]

160. I have nothing to prove to you...

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Acebass]

172. Do I can...NO

you were always good at those screen shots wheren't you...

[Nicole]

183. Screen shots are your friend when you tell the truth

I love them.

[Ms. Clio]

242. they sure are

Game.Set.Match.

[Acebass]

250. your alousy score keeper...

The fat lady hasn't sung yet

[Ms. Clio]

252. This exercise does not require mathematical abilities

Just reading comprehension skills, and a strong distaste for hypocrisy.

[Name removed]

253. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

256. tsk, tsk, tsk

mind you, I will not alert on this, because I am ROTFLMAOPIMP.

Muchas gracias.

[Ms. Clio]

239. but I thought "Illegal is illegal" !!!!!

:rofl:

[ClintonTyree]

45. They had that chance before the entered illegally.....

they didn't want to wait, they didn't want to follow the rules set forth by the country they so desperately wanted to come to. They still don't want to follow the rules, they want immediate citizenship. I'm sorry, I know the conditions that they lived in were atrocious but there are proper channels to obtain citizenship and they chose to ignore them. If I robbed a bank and got caught should I say, "too bad, I choose not to recognize that law and want an immediate pardon". :eyes: Come on people, I know we're all progressives and we want change but there are two ways to obtain change. To work from within the system or anarchy. We CAN change the system from within but encouraging anarchy is, in my opinion, NOT the way to change things.

[Bobbie47]

20. I'm beginning

to wonder if we have a lot of One World Order/Government people on the board.

[mdmc]

28. i think that i might fit that group - world citizenship

[IndyJones]

29. I've noticed that a lot here lately, too.

[Ms. Clio]

32. ooooooo scary!!!

I haven't, but then, I've only been reading here on a virtual daily basis for 5 years, so what do I know?

[Ms. Clio]

31. booga booga

I thought the John Birch Society was dead.

[Bobbie47]

36. I'll take your word for that....

don't know anything about John Birch Society.

[Ms. Clio]

37. Oh, but you really should, I feel you have a certain affinity for them

google is your friend.

[Bobbie47]

38. Why would I have a certain affinity for them

if they would of been any kind of interest to me, I believe I would know who they are?

[sandnsea]

33. International Community

Which isn't anything like a One World Government. It's accepting the reality that we live on one planet. The corporations currently get that and are exploiting it to their benefit. We either catch up and demand our share or end up in huts. It's reality. We can't wall ourselves in and I wouldn't want to.

[Acebass]

54. You want to explain that...n/t

[wiley]

34. One Flaw to your argument is that not only businesses hire people

without working status, whether they are citizens or not. It's conmsidered okay to pay all kinds of workers in this country "off the books". Many of those most enraged by the free citizenship debate would not think twice about hiring someone off the street, without checking papers or paying taxes, to do a job they could get done for a "steal". I didn't hear any of those big anti-illegal workers people make a sound about hiring illegal workers to do rebuilding and construction on the Gulf Coast after Katrina. Americans just want to get a cheap deal and complain about the implications of their actions as if someone else were responsible. You can't just put the blame on "big business" and say jail the criminals.

As far as going to other countries and demanding citizenship, you may be right, except if you have money. Just as in the US if you can demonstrate you own a business that makes more than a million a year in revenue, you're automatically eligible to become a US citizen if you ask. There are millions of legal immigrants in this country who have been waiting over a decade for our process to turn them from temporary residents to permanent residents, so it's very difficult to say that the current legal immigration process is anything less than worse than FEMA's response to national disasters.

It is very important, however, for people at DU who have opinions such as yours to share them. This is such a big mess there really is no easy answer. But very, very few people are aware of the facts.

[Acebass]

58. Americans?...

No it is not considered okay and I have done everything I know of to change that...
I am me, an individual, don't lump me into a group to make your point. Yes we have a lot of problems with the immigration issue, least of which are unscrupulous people who espouse what you refer to. Not all Americans condone that behavior just the right wing who have been trying to undermine the AMERICAN worker for years. This situation just helps them out.
You don't come into someone else's country wave your flag and write posters in your native language and expect people to understand. I am not the only Progressive Democrat to think this way.

[meowfire]

35. I am ambivalent on this issue as well

It is messy, and in my opinion, the best solution is probably going to be some compromise of ideals on all sides, that isn't going to be leaving anyone feeling particularly good. But that's what happens when issues like this are ignored for years.

The fix that would best suit me would be to build a proper wall along the southern border and actually enforce it as opposed to the situation we have now. It is simply not acceptable to be able to have anyone that wishes to enter and leave this country whenever they feel like it, stay or go as they please. But the fact is there are 12 million people already living here, many of which have lived here for many years and contributed to this country and its economy.

The idea of classifying these people as felons because they sought a better life for themselves and their family is absolutely ridiculous. And the idea that we are somehow going to uproot all these people and ship them back to their homelands is just stupid. To speak nothing of the pain and suffering it would cause, the cost to remove millions of people that would not willingly leave the country would surely reach into the hundreds of billions of dollars, and the process would drive people already living in the shadows into even greater fear and hardship. And all for what? To remove people that want to live here? One should not forget their own immigrant past... my family is from Germany.

Besides... them being here is as much our fault as their's. These people have been welcomed with jobs from employers, the borders have not been adequately guarded, and for a great deal of time there has been little interest in removing those that are already here. It is very unfair to place all the blame upon the illegal immigrants.

I think for illegals that have already been living here for at least 3 to 5 years or some such, there should be some sort of system they could enroll in such that they could live and work here without actually being given citizenship. Enrolling would put them on the way to earning citizenship over say 5 years... but of course the right would remain to deport such individuals given any serious criminal involvement or other serious problems.

This would be applicable only to illegals already present living in the country. One time deal. Everyone else needs to line up like normal, and any future illegal immigrants should be deported, just like they always should have been. There is a process of law and it must be respected. While turning 12 million illegal immigrants into felons and attempting to deport them might ideologically feel good to some, it will not happen, and the debate would be better served attempting to find a pragmatic solution.

Just my humble solution.

[w4rma]

39. I agree. Illegal means illegal.

The laws against buisnesses who are offering them jobs at substandard wages, which are also lower the wages of all similar jobs, which force all buisnesses in the same industry to hire illegals or not be able to compete, should be enforced strictly.

[Sparkman]

123. In the land of murderers, thieves & liars, demands for obedience is a joke

THe U.S. president makes up his law as he goes along, raping, plundering killing around the globe, yet the Mexican laborer class must tow the line or else. makes me laugh at the irony.

[chookie]

40. The dream of a permanent underclass

I find this notion creepy. There are American citizens, and businesses, who are offended by the prospect of paying decent wages to those who serve them. They demand nannies, maids, landscapers, construction workers, farm workers etc at just slightly more than slave wages because their work is disrespected and undervalued. The reason Americans "won't take these jobs" is because they pay so ridiculously poorly -- no one can live in America on these wages. It is pure exploitation of fellow humans out of petty avarice. And the dream of destroying the unions, labor laws and fair wages that previous generations of immigrants suffered and died for.

IMHO -- high time to value workers and their produce more than they are getting. Exploitation of humans and other valuable resources to keep things cheap and undervalued so they can be freely wasted is a ridiculously shortsighted policy. The impact of production --human and environmental -- ought to be factored into the price of goods.

11 million humans barely making it becuase their willingness to work for low wages, without health care, without affordable housing, without educational opportunities sucks. Immigration into America is welcomed, but on this vast scale illegally is troubling. Our government can't seem to cope with Americans who have been here for many generations (i.e. the disaster and diaspora of New Orleans) -- but supposes it can absorb many more millions of vulnerable humans?

If you do not speak English -- how can you comprehend the Constitution? Are these new immigrants commited to the ideal of America -- or are they simply fleeing poverty without intention to assimilate into American values? (I do not claim to know the answer.) Again, some illegals are more tolerated than others. Easier to be a Mexican or a Cuban than a Haitian, for example.

Hypocrites on both sides of the aisle are looking for a bargain to wipe their asses and serve them.

Black Americans have, happily, turned their backs on this kind of exploitation. Hispanic immigrants seem to embrace and celebrate it. I object to their economic exploitation, not their presence.

Today's slaves are not brought in ships held by chains, but enter willingly across our border.

[sandnsea]

42. Citizenship requires English

and knowledge of the Constitution and other US history. That's why they want a legitimate path towards citizenship, so they can become full participants in this country so as not to be exploited anymore.

That's what is on the table, not blanket amnesty or any other special treatment. Even DUers are distorting the immigration issue. I can't for the life of me figure out why.

[mccoyn]

117. There is not a hard limit on the population.

In the 30s the country ran out of money and resources. We had a depression. This wasn't caused be hitting the limit on what our country could sustain. It was caused because all of the wealth had been concentrated into a few people. Most people had debts. This artificial demand for money lead to increased competition for jobs, which lowered wages. On and on it spiraled.

Jump ahead 80 years and we are arguing about how many people our country can sustain? The lesson we should have learned from the depression and the recovery was that the economy isn't limited, but its health depends on the distribution of money. In this case any illegal employment is damaging to the economy because it works to concentrate wealth away from some people. Giving a blanket amnesty will help the economy because these people can demand better wages and the wealth will spread out more. Having more money, these people will spend more and the economy will grow.

[bowens43]

41. and what the fuck gives you the right to be here ?

Just cause your momma got knocked up and squirted you out in the right place? An accident of birth.


I am so sick of this xenophobic, hateful, selfish , 'me first' rhetoric......

[ClintonTyree]

46. It has nothing to do with xenophobia......

or being hateful, selfish etc. It's a matter of LAW! You can't pick and choose which laws you want to obey and which ones you don't. There are laws governing the process of immigration. NONE of those laws says it's OK to sneak under a fence then claim citizenship.
Your trying to connect this with xenophobia or bigotry is ridiculous and a prime example of how low some people will stoop to make a point that is invalid in the first place. This isn't about bigotry, it's about THE LAW! :eyes: My ancestors entered this country legally hundreds of years ago, it isn't as if my Mom ran across the border and "squirted me out" on a whim.

[Acebass]

50. They were here legally what don't you understand about that!...n/t

[mondo joe]

70. Your rhetoric is of the "why do you hate America?" variety.

Rather than a dialogue on the issues, you seek to marginalize others by saying they are hateful, xenophobic, etc.

Recognizing a need to manage our resources is not hateful or xenophobic.

[Joe Fields]

51. What process did you go through, to become a citizen?

[Deja Q]

55. They are out for themselves or simply insane.

If I left my home country because it wasn't doing its job... then in the new country I start waving the flag of the country I left as means of protest, I'm a real sleazy fuckedupsonofabitch who has no concept of loyalty.

The illegals want it both ways.


And I wonder where the cops are? Employers will have known who vanished. Of course, as they had no qualms hiring the people, they were either being deliberately lawbreaking or unwittingly had and would be embarrassed to admit they had hired illegals. Now in any good fascist society, neither would be tolerated. So I am not surprised there were no arrests...

Except the cops didn't notice all those locations where the illegals came out to wave the wrong flags!!

[Acebass]

59. Amen!...I think Jesus would send em home...

and tell them to do the right thing...

[dysfunctional press]

78. Luis Gutierrez(D- mexico?) kinda irks me too-

who elected him anyway, American citizens or illegal immigrants...?

he should remember what country he was elected to represent.

and you're dead-on about the flag thing...i live in chicago, and every mexican holiday is celebrated by people driving around with HUGE mexican flags on, and waving from their cars- not in a parade, but just general driving around...BUT- come the 4th of july, NONE of them are out waving/celebrating the American Flag in similar fashion

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

91. Luis Gutierrez was elected by the constituents of the 4th

Illinois Congressional District and he's of Puerto Rican heritage. BTW, Puerto Ricans are considered American citizens...

I live in the Chicago area as well and yes, you're right on Cinco de Mayo and Mexican Independence Day I see cars with Mexican flags being displayed, but I also saw an awful lot of Irish flags this year on March 11 and March 12th and last year after Pope John Paul died, there were many, many Polish and Vatican flags on the streets of Chicago..

What exactly is your point????

[zanne]

56. How about Haitian immigrants? Or Iranian immigrants?

If the "guestworker" program is implemented, I really doubt that all immigrants will be welcomed with open arms. Those who will work for practically nothing will be admitted, while those who have the nerve to want a decent job will be denied. It should also apply to people ALL OVER the world, not just South America.

[Acebass]

62. My people were Irish immigrants...

don't tell me about welcomed with open arms...and they came here legally...
Tell your story to the rest of the world, see if they buy it...

[zanne]

64. I know what you mean.

My people were from Quebec, didn't speak English and were treated like shit. But, here I am, a second-generation French-Canadian American with a perfectly good life. The fact is, my ancestors WERE able to get decent jobs here. My grandfather worked in a shoe shop and made enough to buy a house and provide for his wife and ten children. He was in a union. A UNION! Can you imagine Mexican immigrants being allowed to unionize? I don't think so. The guest-worker program will only create a class of people who can be LEGALLY discriminated against. No thanks.

[Acebass]

67. They came here legally though!...thats the argument...

You won't find a lot of union workers who will supoport your argument...

[zanne]

73. Yes. The operative word here is "legal".

Our immigration laws need to be relaxed, so people CAN come here legally, get decent jobs and not lower the standard of living for the rest of us. I know plenty of people who make a good living working construction. If the Guest Worker program is implemented those jobs will become second-rate with very low wages. Other fields will be affected, too. Since when do employers miss the chance to increase their profits by paying illegals decent wages?

[Acebass]

84. You have a lot of illigals in Maine?...n/t

[Nikia]

200. The temporary workers which worked at a company I worked for

Were part of the union that the permanent workers and temporary American workers belonged to. I think that some of the illegal and temporary agriculture workers also belong to a union.
Guest workers should only be employed by American companies that can prove that they don't have enough applicants to fill temporary positions. Those workers should get the same protections as the companies permanent and temporary American workers.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

74. Acebass, give yourself a great big pat on the back

because your Irish ancestors got here before there were any real restrictions in the numbers of Irish that were allowed to immigrate to the US.

Do a little research and find out for yourself how the numbers have changed since the time "your people" came over. I think you'll be rather surprised.

BTW, my Irish-born husband was "illegal" until we got married 25 years ago. All we had to do after we got married was fill out the forms, pay the fees and he got his "green card". There were no laws back then penalizing him for working "illegally" in the US for two years. Hell even his boss filled out an "affidavit of support" for him as did my parents..

IMHO, the so-called "immigration issue" isn't immigration at all, it's all about cheap labor and racism.

[Acebass]

79. We're all entitled to our opinions...

I've done the research. It doesn't change the issue. Your husband broke the law!...

I filled out the same affidavit for my son-in-law, only he was here legally, they married after he became a citizen...

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

87. Well, since he broke the law in 1978, why wasn't he forced to

return to Ireland to wait for his green card after our marriage? You know why, there wasn't a law on the books for it at the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the waiting list for an immigrant visa to the US from Ireland in 1978 was something like 24 years....

Also can you explain to me why, according to your opinion he broke the law in 1978, he applied for and became an American citizen in 1999?

After all, your argument implies that if he had "done the right thing" in 1978, he wouldn't have gotten an "immigrant" visa until 2002..

Sorry, Acebass your arguments don't hold water. As I said earlier this is all about cheap labor and racism....

[Bridget Burke]

85. When my Irish ancestors came here....

They presented themselves at Ellis Island & got physicals. Not having any obvious diseases, they were processed in & got to work. Of course, they did face some of the familiar xenophobia. "They talk funny, they look different, they're all Catholics & have too many kids."

But it was far easier for them to gain "legal" entry to the USA. Why don't we set up checkpoints at the Border & let in folks who pass the physicals? Give them legal status so they WON'T fear deportation if they stand up for their rights. Then allow them to go through the process to become citizens--just as my ancestors did. (Immigration lawyers get rich obtaining the various residency permits for their clients. Citizenship can be more easily obtained.)

[Bridget Burke]

57. Saying "they" are demanding citizenship is BS.

Of course, that's what the news story said. The media never lie! Most of the protesters were out for respect. And for the "illegals" among them not to be made felons.

The "process" of establishing legal residency needs to be reformed. It's too expensive even for those you would probably accept as citizens.

All my people had to do was show up at Ellis Island & pass the physical. If things were that simple nowadays, we'd have lots more legal residents--many of whom would gladly go through the "process" of becoming citizens.

[foreverdem]

71. Why do you discount their hardship?

Do you think the people who came here through Ellis Island had it easy? That they came here in the lap of luxury in cruise liners? No, they suffered. And many families were broken apart at Ellis Island because family members were sick and some had to return to their native countries while others stayed here. You're making it sound like it was a piece of cake for them and today's illegals have it harder than the immigrants back then could ever have imagined. But they came here legally, and were documented.

I'm not flaming you, but it was far from simple back in those days.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

96. The participants in yesterday's protests are not demanding

immediate citizenship. What they want is a chance to change their status to legal resident aliens, which will as far as I can see according to McCain/Kennedy might lead to eventual citizenship in about 11 years..

When my husband got his green card in January of 1981, he only had to wait for 5 years to apply for citizenship. Not 11 years, even though he had entered the US illegally in 1978.

I guess the OP hasn't really gotten what McCain/Kennedy is all about along with the people that wanted all the protestors at the various marches yesterday arrested and deported...

[Acebass]

108. like I said I support Kennedy...

but there has to be a price paid and not to the guy bringing them across the border...

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

148. Well in that case, I guess Aer Lingus is responsible

for my husband's illegal deeds. :sarcasm:

[Acebass]

152. Your husband can't take the responsibility of his own actions?...

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

For the last time Acebass,

We were married 25 years ago, he received legal resident alien status on January 15, 1981. He applied in 1998 for and was granted American citizenship on June 2, 1999.

My point to you is simply this: When we got married in 1980 there were no laws penalizing him for being an illegal resident for two years. Nothing, nada, zilch...

Now fast forward to 1986 and the last "amnesty" for illegals..There were laws put in place to make "illegal immigration" harder, but were they enforced in anyway shape or form? IMHO no...

Stop accusing people of any color or creed of demanding "citizenship" when the vast majority of them left their countries of origin for a better life for themselves or their children. After all didn't your Irish ancestors do the same????

I would suggest you read McCain/Kennedy, no one is getting a "free ride". All they want is a chance to become legal resident aliens and then go from there..

BTW, have you decided yet if your son-in-law is legal or illegal yet??? :sarcasm:

[Acebass]

211. I will try to explain this very slowly...

It is not about your husband, it is not about me, or any of my relatives...

It's about people illigally coming to this country today, in droves, millions. It's about employers luring them here for cheap labor, it's about people marching in Amereica carrying Mexican flags and banners in a foreign language, demanding we give them something they have no right to...

IF YOU ARE HERE ILLIGALLY YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, the same as if I were to go to Mexico and try to demand my rights, or any other country for that matter...

So I guess If Saddam made it over here we'd have to give him citizenship too?... It makes as much sense as your argument...

[alarimer]

60. blame the damn companies that hire them

Some actually recruit in Mexico. Do not blame people trying to put bread on the table.

[Acebass]

63. I do...

Read my original post...not many here have...

Like most people I don't like what our government is doing to eliminate the problem however everyone here wants to gloss over the ILLEGAL part of this argument...

I want this issue to resolve for the betterment of all concerned but like I said you don't come to this country illegally and demand anything...

Anyone doing what you suggest should be charged as a felon!...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. You really should change your avatar. He disagrees.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
Nowhere below us
Above only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

[mondo joe]

69. I'm sure John Lennon had locks on his doors and kept his money

in a bank.

[Acebass]

82. Unfortunately he didn't have body armor...

but thats another thread...

[Acebass]

80. Illigal aliens is not what the song was about...

nice try...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. Your perception about the song is as faulty as your perception

of immigrants.

[Acebass]

95. Well thats your opinion...n/t

[Ariana Celeste]

116. heh. exactly.

Lennon would have been out on the streets yesterday, too. Or doing something to show support at the very least.

[Acebass]

165. How would you know?...

[Ariana Celeste]

185. Hmm. Maybe because he was

for peace, racial harmony, and equality for everyone.

[Acebass]

222. Whatever...

[Sparkman]

121. John Lennon taught, and teaches many of us TOLERANCE. LIBERAL politics

and righteous indignation. THis a nation of killers, thieves and liars DEMANDING that some Mexicans obey our laws. makes me laugh at the irony.

[shadowknows69]

131. I have news for the Mexicans.

We're all just tenants here. They're going to have to table these proposals for the new landlords. The Chinese.

[Acebass]

141. some Mexicans is 12,000,000

abnd now we're all killers and thieves. Then what do you want to live here for?

[redqueen]

142. Errrrr... really? I thought there were 12M illegals, but not all from Mex.

Source?

[Acebass]

174. Oh lets get picky now...

[redqueen]

176. Accuracy is good.

You lay all the blame on Mexico, but many of those 12M are not brown.

[Acebass]

deleted by me double post

[Acebass]

186. I said illegal...

and my problem is with the flags, the signs, and people say they want rights atht aren't entitled to them...

[redqueen]

192. Yes, illegal.

You are aware that there are people from other countries here illgally, right?

Is your only problem that they're speaking up? If they just kept quiet and let the problem continue quietly, as it has for decades, you'd be okay with it?

Um, yeah.

Enjoy your stay. :hi:

[Sparkman]

151. You don't deny our history? Native Americans, land wars, invasions 4 oil$$

It's a reality that can lead to better more ethical citizens, or to denial and repeat offenders.
I stay because I have freedom, including to tell "love it or leave it" types it's nobel to work for change rather than cut and run.

[LoZoccolo]

166. You should change yours.

This is not Anarcho-Syndicalist Underground.

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

75. Ok, you started it. So obviously you have some sort of idea

of what to do instead...

[Acebass]

81. I support Sen. Ted Kennedy!...n/t

[Squeech]

86. Disagree

The law you say they're breaking is a really bad body of law.

And the proof of that is right in your avatar. The law sets the conditions whereby citizens of other countries can come in and/or stay, but it deliberately made those conditions so vague that anybody can be challenged by the INS for whatever reason. The Nixon administration tried real hard to keep John Lennon out-- somebody any real democracy would have been delighted to have within their borders.

Here's another example of what's wrong with the law. In the interest (it is said) of saving our jobs for our own citizens, we require immigrants to demonstrate that they have enough money to support themselves. So we had these 20-odd guys come in with real big bankrolls, obviously enough that they weren't coming here to bus tables, and we didn't look terribly closely at what they were doing here, and where that money ultimately came from. And of course what they were doing here was learning how to fly airplanes, except for the part about landing them. It was perfectly legal. Was is good for us?

[DanCa]

94. Isn't that what we did when we left England?

:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

98. Yeah, but there was no immigration policy in effect here at the time

In fact, the indians welcomed us in some areas. Their mistake.

[DanCa]

99. What that ? :D

Native American's where here first? :D :sarcasm:

[Acebass]

100. No!...

but then none of us were here first...define first...

[DanCa]

103. Before the May Flower (nt)

[shadowknows69]

133. What about the dinosaur's rights

When is God going to start paying reparations to their descendants. Us. Sorry, just being a smart ass-teroid.

[HereSince1628]

124. Sort of depends on the lenses thru which you see that.

Not to invoke post-modernism but really it is a matter of where you are situated when you look at it.

My 11th great grandfather was part of the group that "bought" the southeast end of Long Island from the Native Americans and set up Southampton.

Was that a legitimate sale?

Can you honestly buy something from someone who has no idea of what a transfer of title to land means? I dunno.

More than 350 years later can that sale be challenged? Even if it was unfair, does the principle of adverse possession have no bearing on how we should view it?

[Cleita]

102. Well, I guess if you feel that way we should start with the

Governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who came here illegally, became a citizen and now wants a special ammendment to the Constitution, so he can be President and the neo-cons are ready to oblige him. Oh, but I forgot, he's a white guy, so no one is objecting.

So now that people who have been working here for years, contributing to the economy and who want to become citizens of the most racist nation in the world are being crapped on because they speak Spanish and aren't as white as Arnold. We have a very strange double standard here.

[redqueen]

145. Only brown illegals are bad. n/t

[Cleita]

178. Yes, you get it. Unfortunately many of our "liberals" here don't. n/t

[Acebass]

104. Why does the term illegal...

seem to go everyones head...If I did something illegal I would expect punishment not a reward...

[Ariana Celeste]

118. Not all of us see in black and white?

Some of us don't think wanting a better life should be such a crime?

I don't think every "illegal" should automatically be made "legal" but I do think it should be much easier to become a citizen of our country and have the same basic human rights as the rest of us.

I don't think "illegals" should be treated as second class. Just because they are "illegal" doesn't mean they aren't people.

[Acebass]

163. This is really laughable...

[shadowknows69]

182. At my family's current financial/class level

I would have to become a criminal to have a "better life". It's ok with you then if I knock over a couple convenient stores so maybe we can eat healthy food and not have to work so much that we see each other maybe an hour a day?

[Ariana Celeste]

188. Hey I hear you

I'm not exactly well-to-do either. I'm not saying they should automatically be given citizenship, however, I don't think we should treat them as second class citizens. I don't think we need to make them felons. I don't think we need to build a wall on our border.
I do think that we need to hold businesses accountable for hiring "illegals", we should raise minimum wage, we should make it easier for people to become citizens.

This isn't a black or white issue.

[shadowknows69]

196. Absolutely agree with you there

I think this whole issue is empowering the corporations who are using the immigrants. It's a supply and demand issue. It has to become unprofitable for big business to mistreat their workers right across the board and just as hard to outsource those jobs overseas.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maestro]

143. Did you happen to see that the MMM is building

a fence in Arizona or California I believe? It's just a matter of time before they murder someone? Also, here in Dallas a protest group, anti-immigrant, is getting ready to pay for a bunch of racist billboards to be put up detailing on the reichwing memes about immigration. It's disgusting really. People don't want to use their brain cells on this issue.

[Maestro]

139. Oh please

They come here undocumented because cheap labor conservatives will hire them illegally. Get a clue and stop bashing people because they want to work. This country is yelling at the wrong people! It's not the immigrants. They come because there is work. They come because there is opportunity. Stop reading reichwing memes and attack the one who are really responsible. The law is fubared, period. Any reform needs to hit cheap labor conservatives hard. That will stop the immigration because the jobs will dry up.

[slybacon9]

140. Love Thy Neighbor

[slybacon9]

144. Don't kick the dog when IT'S THE CEOs FAULT

This is all distraction, once again....

pitting middle class against lower class against haven't even got a class.

THESE CEOS MAKE MORE MONEY THAN GOD.

[redqueen]

150. Amen!

Nice to see some common sense!

:)

[Sparkman]

156. They had to make the laws before they got the $$. Divide & conquer

has been the MILITARISTS modus operandum from the apes to the hominids modern.
Slight of hand, with the media and the slow learners still wondering why Vietnam failed, and the continents mistrust of the U.S. business class perseveres.

[Acebass]

161. I agree but when the dog bites you you don't reward it...

[slybacon9]

197. the dog never bit you. the CEOs do. don't you see?

don't you get it?

the immigrants are not here to steal your job or your money. It's not like they were sitting at home, plotting on a way to come over and take over your economy. Most live in poverty, and they saw an opportunity to change that... an opportunity they were willing to risk their lives for in some cases. you can't blame them for the situation that creates this. Scratch that, you can, but WHY WOULD YOU?

There are so many things to fight here, but the migrant workers are not one.

Start with Loving Thy Neighbor.

Then go after the CEOs that are perpetuating this cycle.

ALSO: Keep in mind that NONE of us would be talking about this if the immigrants themselves didn't bring it up. This should serve as a clue. When the fatcat CEO is watching the money roll in not saying a thing...

COME ON PEOPLE....... how can we honestly fall for this sleight of hand again and again?

[Acebass]

230. Look!...

I know what you are saying about the CEOs, how many times do I have to say it? I agree they should be the ones charged with the felony. I'm not arguing that...

Migrant workers are not the discussion... we are talking about illegals... I don't like the way they are treated but when you come to someone elses country you do what is required of you...illegals in Arizona, I'm told, are voting due to the motor voter laws...Our country is being used abused and trashed...

Why do you refer to my job aren't you a citizen here too?

[Nicole]

170. Acebass has an illegal in the family

Wonder how he wants him to be punished?

[Ksec]

181. immaterial

Illegal means illegal.

Its unfair to those who obeyed the laws and came here legally.

[Nicole]

187. It is material

given the info Acebass posted in his #7 & #53 replies here.

It is material that proves Acebass isn't being upfront with us here.

[LaPera]

195. America welcomes ALL legal immigrants...It's complete bullshit of illegals

DEMANDING work and services from Americans...

Why do you think every country in the world has borders, there's a reason, Skippy...

Hundreds of millions others around the world want to come here...Let them ALL in and demand citizenship...maybe a billion people want to come here to work, let them all in and demand citizenship...Fuck it that illegals are breaking unions,(lowering wages), and are a huge burdens to our social structure and environment...So what, that's what the corporations and republicans love about it...As long as they come illegally to work and demand citizenship that's fine. Bullshit!!

Even the great Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration…when Chavez was trying to form a union among legal immigrant farm workers here…the corporations were encouraging & hiring illegals for less money to break the union…illegals do not help the legal immigrants or the American workers and it is indeed a slap in the face to all those who worked so hard to become legal American immigrants.

The ONLY real solution is to slap huge fines & penalties on companies and business that hire illegal aliens and ENFORCE it!

This is not the 1800’s when America needed massive immigration…when is enough, enough? A billion more people, how about two billion?

Most immigrants in the past came and went through the system LEGALLY!

Reward people for going about it illegally?

The word here is ILLEGAL!!!!

[yebrent]

210. Well said.

My girlfriend of many years just got back from visiting family. She is of Philippine decent, but born in America. Her parents came over legally as did her aunts and uncles, many by serving in the US military. However, she has relatives in the Philippines that have been waiting for OVER 10 YEARS to get into the US. Some elderly relatives have died waiting to get into the US legally.

This is a very complex issue. I'm still very much torn over it. I don't want to see felonies for people who assist illegal aliens for health and human services, but felonies for Companies that hire illegals would be fine with me.

[Acebass]

232. Thats what I'm saying...

It does a disservice to those who've gone through the process. Our jails are full enough we don't need to criminalize these people we just need to fix the problem and they need to act like they want to be citizens of this country!...

[Acebass]

223. At last, someone gets it...n/t

[LoZoccolo]

207. Stalking is freaky.

Sick.

[Acebass]

214. Thank You!...

[Acebass]

231. Please explain what this has to do with illegal aliens?...

My son in law was from El Salvador...the post I made on my forum was in error, my daughter brought that up to me later on, but thats not what this is about is it?
It's about trust isn't it I trusted you when you were a mod and you back stabbed me, this person even went so far as to give me advice on putting my dog to sleep, real tear jerking stuff, this person really has no business butting into our politics anyway do you Canuck?...

[Nicole]

259. You made it about your son in law

when you brought him into the debate here. You said he was an illegal alien elsewhere yet here you said he was a citizen. Now you say you were in error & your daughter corrected you. O.K.

I have never been a mod at your forum so I never stabbed you in the back there, I wasn't even a member there. I'm no "Canuck" so I have no idea where you got that idea. I'm in Oklahoma. Anyone can do a search here & see that while I've posted numerous times about being in OK I've never posted about being in or from Canada.

DU is a community with international members. I would never dream of telling "Canucks", or others, to butt out.

[AbsoluteArmorer]

266. Acebass slammin' Canadians now

I also saw that comment as well by Acebass calling you a Canuck. Is this what he stands for when discussing immigration laws in this country and supposedly representing progressive Democratic views? Makes one wonder what has Canada done to upset Acebass? Probably allowing their citizens more free speech would be my guess. I see you're not even from Canada, but I for one apologize for his idiotic behavior toward you just because somebody should apologize on his behalf. Not that I would ever wish to represent his behalf as a rule.

[Guaranteed]

199. WHY NOT make them citizens? That way, everything is on the up and up.

No unlicensed drivers. No tax-dodgers.

What the hell is wrong with having more citizens, per se?

[Acebass]

219. If it were only that easy...n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

208. The power of numbers.

NOW do you understand why controlled immigration is vital? They come in numbers, organize and you have a powerful political organization.

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

245. The only reason I haven't gotten involved in these utterly stupid

immigration threads is because I know people like you will be laughingstocks in 20 years. Under.

The whole debate is over a corpse. The issue is settled long time passed, with the general imbecility only catching up to it now, after its already decided. Your opinion is not so much worthless as utterly irrelevant.

[autorank]

246. More immigrant bashing. I find this upsetting for a Democratic forum.

That's right, immigrant bashing. Why in the world are we running the dialog here based on MSM stories?

Who is writing the articles?

Story from a day or two ago, Americans of Mexican descent believe that SW USA is their country.

Oh, shocking until you think of your answer to this question:

"Is this your country?" Damn right I'd say yes and so would you. Does this mean we want to return
whatever part of the USA to wherever we think we came from?

"THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND, THIS LAND IS MY LAND"

This is immigrant bashing period. But we're just bashing ourselves. Who here is not an immigrant? (and btw, anyone who is not claiming Native American as their title must respond with "immigrant")

[El Fuego]

262. When did Democrats become the party of illegal immigrants???

They take away jobs and drain government resources from the Americans we are SUPPOSED to be fighting for. They are only benefiting corporations at the expense of the people.

And may I said it yet again, no one is bashing "immigrants." We are only talking about ILLEGAL immigrants. You are only trying to confuse the issue.

[enigmacat]

254. The problem...

... is not black or white. That is obvious. Speaking from first hand, personal experience, I can tell you our immigration system is broken. It is expensive, and you wait for years and years for them to deign to finalize your case. And, you have to hope that they don't lose your documentation, yet again, take a personal dislike to you, or retaliate for your asking your senators/reps for help. And, so on.
But, since we live in a world of governments, borders, and rules, we have to keep in mind that we can't pick and choose the laws we abide. We can only work to change those rules. I realize that emotionally, and ethically, everyone should be allowed the right to work and live and provide for their families. Hey, no one has to preach to this choir! My husband and I are living proof of DHS ineptitude. But, if we don't like the system, we have to fix it from the ground up. Forcing a country to accept something, in direct violation of rules and laws that are already set in place, is not productive.
We should be going after business that are the main culprits of this problem. Keep in mind, people coming here undocumented and working these jobs as illegal aliens, have NO protection against exploitation and abuse. They can't complain, or file a lawsuit; they would be terrified of exposure.
Like I said, the system needs to be fixed from the ground up. We need to concentrate on that primarily. Anyone here illegally at present, let's be realistic, is going to stay because we can't deport everyone. But, from this point on, we do need to tighten the laws we have, and begin a complete overhaul of DHS.
For what it's worth, my father is from El Salvador; so I am speaking from experience with his life, as well as my own situation involving my spouse's five year residency struggle.
One more thing: It is hypocritical of anyone to insult another person's opinion simply because they differ from one's own. Every one has their own feelings and viewpoints. This topic would not get so heated and sometimes nasty if we remembered that we were democrats! LOL Okay? We are the great debators!

Peace.

[DisgustedTX]

255. I agree Acebass.

Thank you.

[Rex]

258. America - land of milk and honey.

Well it WAS before the oil barons got a hold of it. A place to come to and make your fortunes (ha).

[El Fuego]

263. With their tactics, it is not immigration, but invasion.

[earth mom]

265. I agree-TOTAL insanity.

Granting citizenship to those here legally will only lead to an endless cycle of new immigrants ready and willing to work for nothing while being totally exploited by businesses-both large and small.

Those millions of new citizens will then be out of work or underpaid just like way too many current citizens are.

I heard Lew Dobbs-think it was him-on one of the morning shows today and while I usually don't watch those shows, the t.v. happened to be on and I stopped to listen to what he was ranting about and he was saying that 20 years ago construction jobs paid $19 an hour and now those same jobs pay $9.

Which means:
$19 bucks an hour in 1986 = $35.10 in 2006!!!!
AND
$9 bucks an hour in 2006 = $4.87 in 1986!!!!

http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm

C'mon people. Let's get real here. Most of us are or will soon be screwed by this.

[pinto]

268. Locking

Much of this thread has become more about personal sniping than a discussion of an issue.