The Colbert Report

[question everything]

of earlier this evening.

He had an interesting guest who wrote a book called (I think) American Gospel. I am not a gospel person myself, but it was interesting that the author claimed that while the Founding Fathers did believe in influence of religion on the new nation, that it was certainly not a WWJD kind of thing, that it was more the spirit of religion rather than the dogma.

At least, I think that this is what he meant.

Any comments?

[LittleClarkie]

1. I thought they were Daoists

But I'm not sure what that means exactly. Sort of a "we believe in everything" religion, I think.

[Journeyman]

2. The word is "Deist". . .

and it means something quite different from what you suspect. Google the term, or look it up in Wikipedia.

[LittleClarkie]

4. That's it

I knew it started with a D.

I'll go and google now.

On edit:

Ah, gotcha.

Here is the definition for the uninitated:

"Historical and modern deism is defined by the view that reason, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God. Deists reject both organized and revealed religion and maintain that reason is the essential element in all knowledge. For a "rational basis for religion" they refer to the cosmological argument (first cause argument), the teleological argument (argument from design), and other aspects of what was called natural religion. Deism has become identified with the classical belief that God created but does not intervene in the world, though this is not a necessary component of deism."

[ClintonTyree]

11. And you'd be surprised how many of our founding fathers....

were deists, not rabid, flame throwing christians. Washington and Jefferson come to mind.

[question everything]

12. Yes, this is exactly what went through my mind

as I was listening (and therefore posted here).

But try to run something like that by the Rove brigade, not to mention Bush and Robertson and Dodson and you will meet with an comprehensive stare and with a mumble about the "elitist" liberal.

For those of us who want to "reach" the faith based voters, I'd rather them follow this approach than reduce themselves to the personal god stuff that, personally, should be anathema to capitalism and entrepreneurship and the "American can do" concepts that the Republicans have considered theirs.

[Mr_Spock]

13. It's true - they were very level headed & questioned everything

...including religion in the most harsh fashion. The founding fathers were cool...

[American Tragedy]

3. Not Daoists - that's indigenous Chinese religion/philosophy.

You're thinking of Deists.

[Mythsaje]

6. Deists...

Which suggests belief in a "clockmaker" god who set everything in motion and stepped back without intervention.

Taoists (Daoists) are a different breed entirely. To a Taoist, "God," if you want to use that phrase, is not only all that is, but all action and reaction in the universe. This is a very simplified explanation, of course, since the very foundation of Taoism is that it cannot be put into words--it has to be experienced.

[aquart]

5. They were deists.

Which can be found in pretty much any history book or just staying awake in class.

[mdmc]

7. I found the idea of a "public religion" very interesting

ten commandments, "in God we trust" - good feelings without the dogma.

[davepc]

8. Theirs a reason rights are endowed by "our creator" and not "Jesus Christ"

They held that truth to be self evident.

[w4rma]

9. Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. (nt)

[Hissyspit]

10. "American Gospel" by John Meacham

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400065550/sr=8-1/qid=1146555963/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8828462-0028833?%5Fencoding=UTF8



American Gospel : God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation (Hardcover)
by Jon Meacham

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
List Price: $23.95
Price: $14.37 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. Details
You Save: $9.58 (40%)


There are many other, probably more precise, books on religion and the "Founding Fathers." I'll see if I can scare some of the links up.

[Goblinmonger]

15. The Godless Constitution

is a GREAT read and shows how Bush is going against all of it in the last chapters.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039331524X/102-2435853-1098525?v=glance&n=283155

[redqueen]

14. Some of the things the founding fathers said about religion...

would make Pat Robertson's head spin.

In fact, in the Treaty of Tripoli, we were legally declared to be a secular nation. That Treaty is no longer in effect, but it makes the views of the founders quite clear.

[Goblinmonger]

16. The Deists

of that time are probably most like the Unitarian Universalists of today. Or atheists/agnostics. The "first cause" part of Deism has been abandoned.

[Jara sang]

17. Kind of like the Freemasons.

[deutsey]

18. If you read Tom Paine's "Common Sense"

you'll see he uses the Bible to support overthrowing monarchies. "Common Sense" was hugely popular when it first published in 1776 and is credited with igniting the Revolutionary War by persuading the working and middle-classes to join the rebellion.

Paine wasn't an atheist (he was a Deist), but like the other Founders, he didn't see religion as the larger population did either.

[question everything]

19. Thanks. It would be nice if we could rise above the "personal god"

theme that the Republicans have been running with and come with our own approach to religion. To recognize that it is an important factor in many people's lives but to bring forward the idea from the founding fathers (and adjust it to 6th grade level, unfortunately). Thus showing that Democrats are not "godless" people but that, as others have said it, recognize that "the creator" has enabled us to think for ourselves and to make informed decisions.

I am not a spiritual person myself and am grateful for all the insight in this thread but surely someone can put something like that on the Democratic platform without offending anyone. Except Robertson and Ralph Reed and the rest of the simpleton who cannot think beyond "this is from the Bible because my preacher says."