Aren't working illegal immigrants essentially scab labor?

[pnwmom]

Is that why Democrats are so split on the issue? Our instinct is to want to welcome people, and yet we are also pro-union.

The union name: The United States of America
The picket line: the guarded border
The strikers: U.S. citizens
The issues: pay and working conditions
The scabs: illegal immigrants hired by companies who don't want to address the issues.

[bryant69]

1. That is one of the problems with the Democratic Party

It's a strength and a weakness - but at times Democratic Groups really disagree with each other. Another example is the Unions and the Environmentalists.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Dorian Gray]

43. I agree...

I also think that there is a way to solve this problem to appease both sides, but it will be a difficult road. Particularly if neither side is willing to compromise.

I do think that making it easier for foreign workers to get temporary work visas while upholding stricter border security might be a step in the right direction.

[hanginthere]

2. Good analogy

Bottom line, as long as as we have illegal immigration, we can't regulate big business.
The workers have no negotiation status, and Big Business has shown that laws and regulations don't apply to them.

Which means things like a living wage, or decent working environments just won't happen.

Yeah, these are good people who need help. But the answer is not going to come by letting big business define the playing field.

[Minnesota Libra]

3. Very good analogy!!! Yes, I think that pretty much sums up how many .....

......Americans feel about illegal aliens.:toast:

[LynneSin]

4. Some illegal immigrants are just slightly better than slavery

The only difference are at least the illegal immigrants are making some money but many are still living in shitty conditions and being worked long hours in harsh conditions.

:cry:

[bowens43]

5. No, they are NOT scab labor.

[pnwmom]

6. Maybe not literally, but why not figuratively? By analogy?

The union name: The United States of America
Union membership requirement: U.S. citizenship
The picket line: the guarded border
The strikers: U.S. citizens
The issues: pay and working conditions
The scabs: illegal immigrants hired by companies who don't want to address the issues.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. The same was said of the previous waves of immigrants.

Hell, even the pilgrims were "stealing work" from the Indians when they went deer hunting.

[radio4progressives]

12. language, culture, indeginous to this land by pilgrims with no papers

absolutely no legal right to be here, yet have advanced the nationalist racist agenda vis a vis rhetorical and "legal" machinations for over a hundred years.. when the Irish, the Swedes, the Italians and others migrated here without the proper "papers" or "legal channels" couldn't speak the language, but came here because of severe economic conditions in their own country - the same rhetoric being used, i.e. "stealing our jobs" corrupting our culture etc etc etc..

the willingness to be ignorant on our own history is deplorable and inexcusable, and it further advances racism and fear as well as continued ignorance.

[pnwmom]

15. Are you saying the Irish, Swedish, and Italians came here illegally?

How did they do that? Didn't getting processed through Ellis Island make them legal?

We have a much larger country now and have to have some legal way of managing immigration. How do you think we should do it? It isn't racist to be concerned about the issue -- there are fair-skinned Europeans among illegal immigrants as well. The question is, how do we manage the numbers?

[sandnsea]

18. Irish are here illegally right now

Funny we never talk about that.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2001/09/27/story13527.asp

[radio4progressives]

30. In the 90's, a huge influx of Irish people came for a visit & stayed

i came to know scores of people from Ireland because of music in San Francisco, Boston, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, New York mainly. I jammed with many many people from Ireland and Scotland in pubs and festivals and music camps etc...

[pnwmom]

34. Yes, Irish are here illegally right now. And that's part of what I

acknowledged in post 15. White Europeans are among illegal immigrants. So why is the assumption that anyone who is concerned about the sheer numbers a racist?

[Dorian Gray]

44. Yes

in New York City, alone, there are TONS of Illegal Irish workers. They are hired in many restaurants, pubs and bars, as well as many construction crews.

The issue of illegal immigration doesn't apply only to Latinos. There are people of many different cultures coming here illegally, and we need to address the issue fairly.

[radio4progressives]

47. but do you see the Minute Men Militia in New York? They're White and

they are the ethnically "related" to us whities.

Lou Dobbs hasn't spent one minute of his program all these years talking about the illegal Irish immigrants.

it's not even on the radar screen because this isn't really about "illegal" immigrants per se - it's about "those people" with Brown Skin who speak a different language. It's about "those people" whose population will likely be the majority of citizens in my state of California 10 years from now which will change the local politics here tremendously (YES!!!) ..

and it's about the fact that the Latina/o workers are also Union Members, and are contributing to a renewed strengthening of Unions which is ALWAYS A HUGE THREAT TO CORPORATIONS and the RULING CLASS.

That's the REAL ISSUE.

And that's why we working class people need to walk in solidarity with the Latina/o community because we have MORE IN COMMON than we have that separate us - but the Powers that Be are intent in dividing us by using the bogus argument that "those people" is hurting the "middle class".

what blows me away, is how many people here are buying into it.

[Dorian Gray]

50. The only thing that I want

is for our government to make immigration rules more streamlined and easy, THEN enforce the rules. "I" don't care about the color of the people. Currently, I understand why people are trying to circumvent the mess that is our immigration system, and it doens't matter to me whether they are Irish, Mexican, Chinese, or Sweedish. If those problems with the immigration system are fixed, then I would like to see our immigration rules to be enforced.

That's all that matters to me. I want it to be fair for all. I don't begrudge anybody wanting to move here to work (as I moved overseas for five years to work myself). I want to make sure that they can do so and that it is fair.

[radio4progressives]

29. it's an "issue" that can be and should be discussed and dealt with

rationally, logically, and fairly.

but that discussion isn't what's going on right now.. and what's going on right now (generically speaking) is manufactured "outrage" provoked by white supremacists reactionarism vis a vis the corporate media.

it's like the terri schiavo, the missing white girl in aruba (et al) and countless other "issues" that suddenly come on the radar screen, when these events have been going for years and decades - there is nothing new here people. Why weren't people "outraged" over "illegal immigration" during Clinton's administration?? the only "outrage" ever heard then was from the likes of David Duke --

NAFTA's impact wasn't fully in effect then. But now it is. So let's blame that on the "illegals" and scapegoat that group ("those people" )instead of dealing with the real issue.

people are blaming on "illegals" for suppressed wages. But is it fair to blame undocumented workers? Why not hold Congress accountable on their pandering (both dems and repukes) Corporatist who are writing our laws, and our econonmic policies ? is it the fault of "illegals" for low wages and union busting? no it isn't.. and by the way, do you have any idea how pro-union people in the Latina/o communities are? how well organzied they are? why not join with them in solidarity, so that we can have a stronger labor force to DRIVE UP wages in this country and strengthen UNIONS???

Don't we, the working class (union members and non-union members)owe to ourselves and working class sisters and brothers in struggle everywhere for a decent life too?

Yeah, people from Europe came through Ellis Island and processed there on the spot. Where else were they going to go? Tijuana?

Maybe we should set up an "Ellis Island" style processing center there..

but as far as numbers go - limits and all that, as soon as the government and economic system of the "old country" gets it together - there is often a "return to the homeland"-- which has happened with recent illegal Irish immigrants who flocked here again in the 90's in huge numbers (illegally) and because their skin is white it was easy to become invisiable or once discovered "accepted" as relatives tend to be, no matter how distant or non-existant the relation. There is an economic boom in Ireland now, hi-tech industries and businesses have been flocking there and people i know who were here illegally have gone back home to take advantage of the promising new economic conditions.

we as a country need to deal with the ptb in Mexico with the same level of pressures on their economic policies.. there are real issues to be contended with - and we have our problems but "illegal aliens" aren't really at the core of them.

it's easy to point the finger at them, but it isn't fair, it isn't just, and it's completely missing the target. So let's attempt to discuss the matter in terms of economic policies such as NAFTA, fair trade vs "free trade" (read monopolies and anti-trust) and so on..

and let's not allow the Corporate Media frame the issue - in fact, everyone should question the honesty, the accuracy and the true scope and parameter of the issue as presented by the Corporate Media, i.e. Lou Dobbs, Ed Schwartz et al. Question the time of day they say it is. Question them if they say it's raining outside. question their ability to identify the color blue or distinguish blue from red.

they are not giving you the full scope of the issue, and they are pandering to right wing reactionarism.

don't fall into that trap.

[pnwmom]

35. I don't know why you're assuming that to be concerned about the

numbers of illegal immigrants is racist. If white Canadians were flocking through the borders, willing to take jobs with pay and conditions unacceptable to U.S. citizens, that would be just as much of a problem.

My sister back east lives in a suburban school district where her children have had no illegal immigrants in their classes. Actually, they have had no legal immigrants either. Not a single ESL kid.

In my district, last I heard there were something like 60 languages, and the fair-skinned freckle faced kid may well turn out to be ESL, too.

Having said all that, I think that something most everyone here could agree on, and so maybe where we should start, is that any law that says illegals, and the people who try to help them, should be turned into felons, is wrong.

[radio4progressives]

41. the only reason this is an "issue" at all is because of racist media

the issue of white skinned "illegals" isn't even mentioned in this debate (in the media) - the entire issue of "illegal aliens" is soley focused on migrant workers from Mexico, and thus the "issue" was manufactured by the media and spurred on by white supremacists, i.e. David Duke's Minute Men vigilantes.

the "problem" should be deconstructed on the real issues and separated regarding policy not reactionary piling on. that's what has happened here, though it is so typical and unfortunately frequent.

but we'll never get to the real issues until we shed the nationalistic attitudes in this national discussion - wrapping everything up in the american flag, "english only" language whether we're talking about voting ballots or the national "anthem" doesn't advance the discussion to finding reasonalbe or logical solutions, which is where we (the nation) are right now unfortunately.

[pnwmom]

42. Here's the thing about English, though I couldn't care less about

the national anthem, translated ballots, etc. And I encouraged all three of my children to choose Spanish in school, rather than another foreign language, because it simply makes sense, given immigration patterns, that this will be useful.

But in my part of the country, and I'm sure in others, we are very aware of all the different ethnic groups that are here. There are over 60 first languages spoken by the children in our school district. It is hard enough for anybody to have to learn English as a second language -- but should a Romanian, a Hmong, a Cambodian, etc., have to learn Spanish, too? I see the French separatist movement in Canada and I don't think that would be something we'd want to import.

[pnwmom]

45. It's not just the media. There's the issue of simple fairness.

Some of the legal immigrants I know here have siblings, etc., who are waiting for years on long waiting lists to come here legally. How do you think they feel about other people who arrive here illegally and then demand their "rights" to be given amnesty? The legal immigrants played by the rules, their relatives on the waiting lists are playing by the rules -- many in situations even more desperate than Mexicans who come here. Why shouldn't everybody?

Also, the impact of immigration is experienced very differently in different parts of the country. My sister's children had no immigrants in their classes, as far as my sister knows. But over the fifteen years that my three attended elementary school here, the changes have been profound, and the schools have really had to scramble to keep up. Just walking through the shopping mall is a whole different experience. If you live in my area, you certainly don't need to media to tell you that we have a large and growing immigrant population, and somehow we have to plan for it.

[radio4progressives]

48. I agree we have to plan for the impact of growing populations in general

i dont' intend to make light of the several angles of impact. these are matters that have to be addressed appropriately and should not/cannot be ignored.

But frankly, we are about to set off a nuclear bomb on Iran and i'm more concerned of the impact that will have on all of us the world over - when that happens, this issue will no longer matter to anyone.

again.. this is an important issue when we are living in times of peace.. let's deal with it intelligently and fairly. Right now, we have taken our collective eyes off the ball - of the most devastating issue before the entire human race and population, and that is nuclear war.

why not let's stop that first, and then deal with this?

[radio4progressives]

46. Should a Hmong know Spanish too? Some Hmong who live in San Joaquin

Valley learned to speak Spanish as well as English. If they want to do business with Spanish speaking people, their American Dollars are just as good as the cash from english speaking people - people in Europe learn to speak more than one language because of bordering countries. My soon to be daughter in law speaks five languages fluently, and they don't come more white than she is except for my own daughter. She was born in Holland to an American Father who was a CEO for Chevron since the late forties retired in the 90's.. Mother was Dutch but they lived in India, Holland, France, Italy, Spain and the United States. Speaks Dutch, Spanish, Italian, French, and of course English. All fluently.

We are sooooo freaking miopic it astounds me sometimes - this English Only mentality we hold on to, when we have French Canadians to the north of us and Spanish speaking people to the south of us. It's only our arrogant sense of supremacy that is dictating this thinking, and it's going to lead to our own destruction..

If Spanish and French were mandated subjects begining in kindergarten, we would see just how rediculous this whole thing is. but then again, our nation isn't about educating our people, except those who can afford to pay for the best..

[radio4progressives]

8. Basta! No! they are not "scab" workers...

racism in the democratic party is not only sickening, it is disheartening.

[pnwmom]

9. Did you read more than the subject line? Why is my analogy incorrect?

[Fierce]

10. Because you're assuming everyone here

makes "union" wages. You're falling into the trap.

ETA: It's a really weak analogy, and scab is a pretty strong word to some people. You don't want to throw it around just to make a weak point.

[pnwmom]

13. I'm not saying we're literally a labor union, but the analogy is

still true, as far as I can see. We have laws and minimum pay standards that corporations are able to flout because of illegal immigrants who are willing to work for less money and under poor working conditions. How can we maintain our laws if people keep crossing the picket lines (i.e., borders).

My argument doesn't assume that DU'ers make union wages, but I did assume that most DUers were pro-union.

[Fierce]

21. I realize you're not saying we're in a labor union, literally.

I know what an analogy is. Minimum pay standards are flouted because of people born in this country, too. Your analogy breaks down. It illustrates nothing.

[neoteric lefty]

19. Great point

'scab' is a serious word. To me, it has a connotation of blaming the workers as well as the company. I feel that's completely wrong.

[mitchtv]

25. Outrageous! I don't want to be deleted so

I will just say" Yeah look at those unionized Americans trying to help the UFW. In the scorching desert heat" . Unions were one of the things that protected us from illegals undercutting. The good unioners (too cheap to pay union dues) broke our unions and support cheap produce,then whine when everyone knows goddamned well that the pinche gringos will head right over to Walmart and buy the cheapest they can. ( from Chinese workers(the real outsourced scabs) These "Dems" deserve to lose the Latino vote and I say" lose muthfucka you richly deserve it"

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

51. What is sickening, disheartening in the Democractic Party

is when people throw the racist word out every chance they can get whenever anyone believes illegal immmigration is wrong. You don't have to explain anything to me, but how the hell is the topic of this thread racist?

[sandnsea]

11. Oddly, unions support them

Because they know they don't want to be scab labor, but our archaic immigration laws force them to be, aided and abetted by corporate power.

I really didn't know DUers could be manipulated to turn against workers so easily.

[pnwmom]

14. How do you recommend that our immigration laws be changed?

[sandnsea]

17. McCain-Kennedy is a good start

Type in s.2010

http://thomas.loc.gov/

[eugene5debs]

16. What is scab labor?

Is it people who take the jobs no one else will do? (a favorite Rove talking point)

Or is it someone who undercuts the prevailing wage by working for less than local labor to do the same job?

It is instructive to see how employers view this labor supply:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/12/08/news/top_stories/21_40_5012_7_05.txt

[Fierce]

22. What is a scab?

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left which he made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water-logged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs, and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out. No man has a right to scab as long as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab for betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab hasn't!!

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold his Country for a promise of a commission in the British army. The modern strikebreaker sells his birthright, his Country, his wife, his children, and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation.
Esau was a traitor to himself, Judas Iscariot was a traitor to his God, Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his Country.

A strikebreaker is a traitor to his God, his Country, his family, and his class!!

-- Jack London

----------------------

[Xithras]

24. According to my Teamster uncle, Scabs are speedbumps :)

Less than human, not worth the skin they wear. Scabs are the willing agents of the corporatists as they try to break union power. They are the lowest of the low. When union workers strike to improve their lives and working conditions, scabs willingly walk through the strikers, take their jobs, and help the employer minimize financial harm coming from the strike. This undermines the union position and prolongs the strike, and directly hurts the families of the strikers.

Scabs deserve all ill treatment they get. BUT...while I oppose illegal immigration, I DO NOT equate illegals with scabs. What makes a scab so slimy is the fact that they're willing to look you in the eye as they steal your job and hurt your family. While illegals may undermine union labor, they generally are going into positions that have already been cleared of union influence.

[displacedtexan]

20. My cousin (used to head the plumbers' union in Connecticut)...

and he says the unions would love to hire every single illegal
immigrant they can because they're hard working, and they
show up every day.

My cousin is now the head of Conn.'s consumer protection
agency.

[Bridget Burke]

28. The "illegals" are not whimpering slaves, even if some consider them so.

They took a hard trip North. And they work hard. They would prefer to earn more & have better (safer) conditions at work--but are often afraid of deportation if they complain.

Mexico & other Latin countries have strong histories of Labor activism. If US workers could stand together with workers from the South, everyone would benefit. Except for some corporate pigs.

[Ksec]

23. I cant believe the Unions are supporting illegals

I think Ill write some angry letters to these people.

[mitchtv]

26. Go right ahead

and ask them what happens when you don't unionize newcomers. Oh that's right, we're seeing the results of that now

[radio4progressives]

31. latina/o's are a significant percent of Unions now..

it's time to recognize that they have largely saved what's left of the Unions and it's time to join in solidarity with them - to make Unions stronger, and drive wages UP.

[Bridget Burke]

27. NO.

The United States is NOT a Union. It includes Union labor, management, the idle rich & many workers who are above belonging to a Union. (Too "blue collar".)

A picket line is a picket line. It is not a border--guarded or not. Unless you consider the Minutemen Your Union Brothers?

Strikers? Those are Union members who refuse to work to gain better pay or better working conditions. Who has quit work to protest "illegals"? Besides--many non-Citizens are legally allowed to work here. Unless you want to kick them out, too.

Issues? When did you last protest at your job--especially through your Union? When did US workers take to the streets to demand better conditions? Well--we know who took to the street.

Scab is an ugly word but it is NOT relevant.

[radio4progressives]

32. well said bridget!

:applause:

[ComerPerro]

33. I don't think so, but I've never been totally opposed to scabs. however

I think that you are right that a lot of people see them as scabs

[dogman]

36. Times have changed and so have unions.

In general unions do not consider non-union workers scabs. The more recent terminology is calling non-union contractors RATS. It serves no real purpose denigrating a person who is trying to earn a living and a person you would like to unionize. Instead the attention needs to be focused on the employer who would take advantage of these workers. On the other hand a worker who crosses a picket line, whether that person is non-union or union, is still pretty much considered a scab. The problem with your set-up as I see it is the border is not a picket line to keep workers out. It is primarily a security measure. That brings up the more problematic question, are they criminals? Technically that is a more appropriate term so that presents the even bigger problem, what should the penalty be for their crime? Is basic survival a criminal act? What do the original treaties call for? Is ignoring treaties a criminal act?

[pnwmom]

39. I do NOT support making illegal status a felony.

Nor should it be a felony to try to help anyone, whether legal or illegal.

[Neil Lisst]

37. That's exactly what they are: with no disrespect to them or scabs

In the Depression, it was the desperation of other Americans that gave big business the ability to use scabs. Here, it allows big business to use the same thing to undercut Americans in the job market.

This used to not be a confusing issue for Democrats. Another reason the far, far left has hurt the party.

[ulysses]

49. mind if I ask about you take on NAFTA

and whether or not it was a "far, far left" initiative?

[Mountainman]

38. What a way to demonize a whole group of people.

Are they taking the place of workers out on strike? No. The same scapegoating is happening to the immigrants that happened to the "Okies" in the dust bowl days.

Do you know the story behind "The Grapes of Wrath"? Migrants from the midwest moved to the San Joaquin valley to find work to survive. The were hated and treated like they had a plague in Bakersfield. You could not eve find Steinbeck's book in the library nor was it allowed in the public schools.

The only difference it that todays migrants come from Mexico. Some day we will look back on this like we do the dust bowl days.

[pnwmom]

40. Workers are on strike figuratively, if not literally, when they are not

willing to work certain jobs under certain conditions and pay.

The important difference between the dust bowl migrants and migrants from Mexico is that the former are U.S. citizens and the latter are not. To say this means nothing is to say it means nothing to be a citizen of the United States.