A local company is shocked by its undocumented workers

[Erika]

A vendor, a cabinet shop, had half of its employees not show up Monday, and found they were undocumented.

The employer didn't care. Some of the workers had been there over a decade and gave 100% of themselves to the job.

When the employer was told by the foreman, that these guys were undocumented, the employer said "You never told me that". They agreed it was never said.

These hard workers should have every right to be a citizen as someone born here. All his garbage about illegals not paying taxes is just that, garbage. These people are hard working and family oriented and deserve the chance to be here and contribute.

I urge everyone here who hears illegals don't pay taxes to say "bull" . I urge everyone who hears that illegals are here only to bilk our system to say "bull".

What we need to do is tear down the border. What is the difference to shipping our jobs to Mexico or letting in hard workers? Workers need to unite. We need to demand a fair pay for our labor. It doesn't matter as to our color or country.

W wants a one world government where the elitists rule and all others live in third world conditions. Fight against it through your voice, donations, and votes.

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. They have the same right as anyone else...

to go through the proper channels and immmigrate legally. If I were to move to another country without going through proper immigration channels, without obtaining a work permit or visa, without a passport or any authorisation, and I were to live and work there for some years and only THEN be found out, I would fully expect to be deported.

The idea that anyone who wants to come to this country and manages to get a job and avoid the INS should be given citizenship is ridiculous, stupid, and makes a mockery of our laws on immigration and foreign workers. Would you just repeal all of those?

[Capn Sunshine]

4. Ever deal with that INS "legal " system?

It's a circle of hell, it's DMV on steroids. No one can afford the time or childcare demanded to do the hearings and file the paperwork. Even my well read college grad non citizen friends find it arcane and cryptic.

THAT system is broken. If it were efficient, do you think so many would not participate?

An overwhelming majority of undocumented workers are hard working family driven people, who are just trying to better their family situation, often at sacrifice of their own dreams.

Certainly we owe all emigres a slim efficient system devoid of petty bureaucrats and arcane procedures than can only be solved with legal representation.

[Igel]

13. Unfortunately, yes.

I'm a college educated, native born American, and was calling for a white European male who was trying to get a student visa outside of the usual channels. Rather far outside, actually.

The level of disrespect and incompetence from the civil service is astounding. Treating them as people frequently helped, but sometimes not. Most didn't care about me or the other person; most didn't much care for anything but getting to the end of the day, hassle free. Some were on a power trip, since they could type a few characters into a computer terminal and create a nightmare for the person on the phone.

I navigated the system for his first few steps, read his paperwork and told him what it meant. It just took a few (hellish) calls to clarify a couple of points, to find out where a problem was, and ascertain what needed to be done to rectify it immediately before it corrupted his entire file. I made damned sure he followed every single direction perfectly, and that he did absolutely nothing that could get him into any trouble with that bureaucracy. He quickly fell into a recognized kind of 'track', he made sure he understood how to advance in that 'track' and not get derailed, and he has been a naturalized citizen for the last 15 years or so.

Respect the system, and it disrespects you, and sometimes screws you over. Disrespect the system, and you're guaranteed a thorough screwing.

[FreakinDJ]

23. Not an excuse

Yes there are millions of legal hard working immigrants that CHOOSE to come here legally.

and yes I am an expert on legal immigration procedures

[Xipe Totec]

69. Finally an expert. Excellent!

Maybe you can help with this question. How does a farm worker gain legal entry into the USA?

If there is a legal way, I am sure most of these undocumented workers would take that route. After all, they can get better wages and legal protection if they can work here legally.

I posted this question before, but so far no takers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1087228&mesg_id=1087228

As an expert, perhaps you know a good path through the laws.

[Nikia]

104. I'm not an expert

At a food processing company where I worked, the employer sponsored many Mexicans for temporary visas for the "busy season". Most of them knew each other in Mexico and appear to have been recruited by a few of those who worked for the company from Mexico, who may have been permanent residents.
I do not know who usually recruits temporary workers or if most Mexicans wanting to be hired for a temproary visa could find such a recruiter.
Some companies might choose not to go the legal route and hire illegal workers since they are available and don't require extra money and work, espcially in areas with large populations of illegal immigrants.

[Xipe Totec]

108. Half a loaf is better than none, I guess

Yes, there is the H-2A classification which applies to an alien coming temporarily to engage in temporary or seasonal agricultural employment. There is no cap on this number of visas, but the work MUST be seasonal. This means migrant workers who must travel to and from the US each season and return to their native country. It does not offer a path to permanent residence and eventual citizenship.

The H-2B classification applies to an alien coming temporarily to engage in non-agricultural employment which is seasonal, intermittent, a peak load need, or a one-time occurrence. There is an annual cap of 66,000 for this classification, and does not offer a path to permanent residence or citizenship either.

Nevertheless, let's assume there are workers willing to take these jobs under these conditions, and certainly there are many willing to do so. It is up to the employer to obtain the visas to cover this work.

An individual worker has no say in this matter. If the employer follows the law, then the worker is automatically legal and covered. If the employer does not follow the law, then the worker is deemed "illegal".

What is interesting is that it is the employer that breaks the law, and the worker who gets labeled as an "illegal". According to the law, it is not even necessary for the employer to identify the requested H-2A beneficiaries by name. In other words, it is a blanket certificate tied to the employer and not to the employee.

Isn't that interesting?

[BooScout]

77. BS....and yes I have dealt with the INS more than you will ever know

I oppose illegal immigration.

For 5 fucking years I dealt with the INS so my husband could immigrate to the States legally. Yes, it's not cheap, yes the waiting to get into the US is hard....even harder when families are separated. Part of the whole fucking reason the INS is so inefficient with legal immigration is that most of their resources are tied up dealing with illegal immigration. Quotas letting only a certain amount of people immigrate legally each year are kept artifically low because of the flood of illegal immigrants.

For five years I amassed a file of paperwork over a foot thick. I laid my life bare to the US government....financial records, tax records, swore an oath I would support my husband financially and shelled out dollars we could ill afford because we wanted to do it the 'legal' way. We submitted to interrogations, fingerprinting, physcial exams.........every fucking thing imaginable. We sacrifcied and we sacrificed a lot to get him legally in to the US.

I managed to navigate the system and eventually get my husband into the States in a legal manner. Why the hell should anyone else think they can bypass all the rules because they don't want to wait or do it the right way???I'm a hard working, family oriented individual. I don't owe an illegal immigrant jack shit.

I don't support building walls to keep people out. I support enforcing laws that are already on the books to prosecute and fine those that hire illegal aliens and I support deporting them.

This whole current bruhaha of illegal immigration is NOTHING but a Bush/Rove diversion to again divide the country and keep us chasing our own damn tails while they get away with their continued pillaging of America.

[noamnety]

6. They don't have the same rights as I have.

I didn't have to do squat to become an American citizen.

I reject the idea that people should be condemned to poverty or starvation because they weren't able to marry into a better citizenship. I reject the idea that I am more entitled to natural resources than any other person, simply by virtue of my great-grandparents deciding to move here.

I reject the idea that America can misuse its military to wreak havoc on the economic and political systems in countries around the world, particularly in Latin America, and then deny any responsibility when the people there try to escape from the oppression we created.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. The same rights as anyone else who ISN'T AN AMERICAN CITIZEN.

Which should be blatantly obvious.

[noamnety]

58. missing the point

Because of my birthright, I inherently have more human rights and opportunities than them. nHow is that just?

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. Flawed argument.

Because of THEIR birthright, citizens of most countries in Europe inherently have more social protections than Americans (nationalised healthcare, a functional social safety net, labour laws that respect the rights of workers and not those of management, etc). Does that mean that those of us unfortunate enough to have been born in the United States should have the inherent right to move to France, or the Netherlands, or Sweden, if we conclude we'd be better off there than here? Justice doesn't enter into it.

[noamnety]

62. So you determine ethics

at least in some degree, by adherence to administrative red tape requirements.

I do not. Nor can I bring myself to say that justice doesn't, or shouldn't, enter into a discussion about immigration.

Yes, I do believe that those born in one country should have the right to move to another country. That doesn't mean each country's legislation allows it legally, but that is a seperate question than what I feel is right or wrong, just or unjust.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. You have the same rights in your native country...

... as illegal aliens do IN THEIR NATIVE COUNTRY.

Furthermore, you have as little right to extralegally set up shop in their country as they do in ours.

You know what? Bullshit. All this 'basic human rights' nonsense is getting on my nerves. No one has a basic human right to come to my country and take my job. It is my basic human right to determine, through the democratic and legal process who, if anyone, gets the opportunity to come here.

People come to this country at the suffrage of those to whom it belongs, US citizens. I also care not one bit about anyone's appraisal of whether we deserve that birthright, and frankly, the viewpoint you express causes me great distress that perhaps you have a point - we may no longer deserve it because we don't have the willingness to defend it.

I don't care if it's fair. Those who have jobs which are vulnerable to outsourcing, insourcing or scab-sourcing get it, and they're the ones we need to reach to take back this country from the republicans.

[noamnety]

75. "All this 'basic human rights' nonsense"

Hmmm. That's exactly why I stopped attending church a couple years ago - one big long sermon on the inherent evilness of "human rights" as a concept. The pastor said human rights were a concept invented by Satan.

I could not get past that then, nor can I now.

We acquired Florida through forging documents. We acquired half of Mexico through manufacturing an excuse for a war we were already determined to take part in.

I have a hard time getting past that as well, so that I can properly buy into the belief that it is my "human right" to determine who gets to come into MY country.

You don't care if it's fair. I don't know what to say in response to that. I care.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Sorry for the rant

:hi:

It is now our role, regardless of the long sad history of human events that brought us here, to protect the interests of us, our families, our neighbors, our fellow citizens, and people worldwide - in that order.

I do care about human rights. It is my job to elect people who will encourage the leaders of other countries to improve the conditions for their citizens. This moral obligation stops when I begin giving away my livelihood and that of my fellow citizens.

[noamnety]

94. the moral obligation never stops

"I was involved in the smuggling of people from Central America into Mexico and the United States. That was the only way to save many lives. We would learn, for example, of a Salvadoran widow in Guatemala. Her husband had been assassinated by death squads. She was a terrified refugee with three children. We would then learn that a group in New York was willing to provide sanctuary. We would meet the family in Tapachula and smuggle them to the United States border — that’s almost three thousand kilometers — and deliver them to people like Jim Corbett in Tucson, Arizona. This was a clandestine international humanitarian movement, not unlike the underground railroad that once helped runaway slaves get to the North or to Canada. That kind of activity was frequently resented by members of the security apparatus; I was threatened in Chiapas, which even then was rife with gross human rights violations. Certain Mexican officials, however, were very supportive."

http://www.indiana.edu/~jah/mexico/saguayo.html

What's the moral obligation there? Bringing the Salvadoran widow to the US illegally? Or leaving her in Guatemala? If the US was involved in training or supporting the death squads that killed her husband, does that in any way change the answer?

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. Political asylum is not what we're talking about here.

There are humanitarian reasons to accept refugees. None of those reasons apply to someone for whom applying for citizenship was inconvenient.

[noamnety]

107. define "humanitarian reason"

Excluding criminals fleeing their country because of a crime, aren't they all here for humanitarian reasons?

You make it sound like they come here and decide to live for the next 50 years as undocumented immigrants under the threat of deportation because that's more convenient than just getting the paperwork done.

[Little Star]

72. Just a thought

I own my home and my children have an inherent right to be raised in my home. Neighbors children do not, unless of course, I decide to adopt them.

Just as an aside, try doing this crap in Mexico "Gringo" (as they call us.) If our system to legal immigration is so broken how do so many get naturalized?

Sorry for the rant. This whole issue is a paradox IMHO.

[noamnety]

78. I haven't had a problem with illegal immigrants

actually trying to move into my house. Have you?

I have, however, toyed with the idea of making my house a safe house of one type or another, either for undocumented immigrants, or returning vets with PTSD, or deserters. It won't happen because my spouse isn't up for it, he doesn't do chaos, but ideally that is exactly what I'd do. Throw open the doors, fill the spare rooms, step over sleeping bags in the living room each morning, and do community meals.

[Little Star]

81. Takes all kinds. Thats what makes the world go round.

I personally would help in other ways. My first priority would be to the safe keeping of my own. Maybe your house guests would be 100% good people but maybe one percent would not. Is it wrong to make caring for yourself and family first? There are plenty of ways to help people and as for Mexico why don't we encourage and help them to change their own country? How are we helping by letting them be used like slaves by our corporations and rich, lazy, americans who allow them to dust their house? What the heck kind of help is that? I just don't get it.

[noamnety]

86. We already did help them change their own country.

Just as we're helping the Iraqis change their own country now.

[Bridget Burke]

89. Poor Mexico....

So far from God, so near to the USA.

[Xipe Totec]

82. Even this is not true.

Cubans and others born in countries we despise get a free pass.

Not all non-citizens are treated equally.

Far, far from it.

[FreakinDJ]

25. Try going into a foreign country illegally and see what happens.

I guarantee it won’t be an amnesty program

[noamnety]

61. That doesn't address my point at all

I'm talking about something far more fundamental than who has or hasn't done paperwork.

I'm talking about a privilege most of us take for granted - the privilege of not being born into a war ravaged country decimated by draught or aids or the far-reaching policies of our own government. Why should a person be condemned to live their entire life in those circumstances, just because they happened to be born there?

I don't want to argue the merits of human rights based on such artificial social ethics as "another country wouldn't grant you that right either." Put aside administration red tape, put aside what some other country's procedural bullshit is. I'm just talking about basic right or wrong here, and whether one person has more right to survival than another, based on where they happen to have been born. Do I deserve more human rights than a person, say, from Haiti?

[Erika]

8. The INS is not looking for these people

The American government since Reagan in 1986, has given these people the silent nod of approval to come to this country. It has also given silent approval to the employers who engage them.

There is little funding requested or given for enforcement of rules. The government gives a wink to employers using these people.

The big issue is what is the difference between our our outsourcing good paying jobs to Mexico vs.them coming here for jobs? That is the question which needs to be answered.

W is making this one world. Our borders need to disappear. They are only a joke with the outsourcing.

[FreakinDJ]

27. Not only that

Local law enforcement can not detain them or force INS to deport them

[juajen]

52. OK, what jobs are being outsourced to Mexico?

I am not aware of any. Please educate me.

Also, I would be welcome in Mexico as long as I have money to live. I would not be welcome if I took one of their jobs and had no money.

It's fine to be altruistic, but realistic is more sensible.

I believe I have heard of some American companies relocating to Mexico, and that is too bad, and the company should be penalized. That does not mean we should welcome all comers to this country. If our immigration laws and procedures need to be modernized, they should be; but, allowing companies to hire illegals reduces our own wages and benefits. The end result will be another Mexico where our country used to be.

We need to rescind NAFTA; do away with CAFTA withdraw from the WTO and start all over again.

We also need to help our neighbors to the South as much as possible to lift their own people out of poverty and slavery. We can't do that if we are enslaved ourselves, or if we permit our corporations to buy up impoverished nations' natural resources and abuse their people.

In short, Mexico needs to emulate the US, instead of the US becoming more like Mexico; which is what will happen if we open our borders or give blanket amnesty.

[FlaGranny]

70. You would NOT be welcome in Mexico

if you slipped over their border in the middle of the night, took up residence, and got a job. PERIOD.

[kestrel91316]

19. Thank you. A breath of fresh air and COMMON SENSE.

[hyphenate]

63. I would worry less about undocumented

workers and those who come to our country, albeit not on a legal basis, who will work their asses off in order to prove their work ethic, and worry more about those who are already in to our country legally who try to take as much advantage of the system as it currently exists.

I'm not talking about those who need to get a hand up and who are genuinely trying to better themselves. I'm talking about second generation welfare recipients who have never worked a day in their lives, who have fabricated some wonderful stories in order to stay on the dole and who have managed to fool the system into giving them a cash layout every month without a day in their lives of working for it.

I'm talking about LEGAL residents, whether they are from someplace such as Puerto Rico or other territory, whose principle language is something other than English, and who demand that they be given as many rights as the other Americans in our country. I'm talking about those who refuse to work, who come into the states to collect their piece of the pie, who have as many children as they can simply because each child is worth more in welfare money. I'm talking about people who are physically able to work, who lie that their spouses are with them, and who manage to drive Cadillacs and wear tons of jewelry while living off the system.

People show such disdain for those who come across the border without papers, but fail to see the welfare fraud, the complete and utter lack of regard for a work ethic by some who are already living here, and who need to be told enough is enough. I'm talking about neighborhoods where crime and drugs are taken up because it's easier to make money being a dealer or a pimp than an upright citizen. I'm talking about the grit, the dirt and the lack of morals and ethics that are here already, that will never be cleaned up and will always present a blot on our country.

Fuck the illegal immigrants. They WORK. They WANT to work. They need to bring their families out of the pit of poverty and they do it by risking their lives by sneaking into the United States to secure some job that will be better than what they have in their own country.

PAY attention to those who are already HERE. There are so many who are sleazy, lazy and who commit fraud every day by stealing from the government, alleging their status as necessary for collecting welfare.

Welfare is a good system if it isn't abused. But damn it, there is so much fraud, so much lying, so much downright lack of ethics that it scares me. People who have never worked; people who are willing to do just about anything--and everything--in order to skate along.

Some of these people--LEGAL residents--are here without ever learning to speak English AT ALL. They can speak whatever language they want in their own homes, but in dealing with business, education and other aspects of American living, they NEED to speak English. If a LEGAL immigrant can't learn to speak English within a given amount of time in this country in order to function, they need to be denied benefits until they do. They need to be denied legal residence if they come from a territory of our country, or from a foreign country and came here on a legal basis, they need to be able to follow some rules of the country as a whole, not remain isolated in a small version of their own country here in ours.

When I lived in Southern California, there were many Asians living in the Alhambra-Montebello-Monterey Park area of the San Gabriel Valley. They kept to themselves and all their signage was in their native language. The city council told them to get signs up in English, because if there were ever an emergency or a fire, it would be impossible to find a location if there were no signs in English. How can these people function without a transition to English? If they are to be here, there needs to be some rules to distinguish OUR country from theirs and that means becoming at least cognizant that we don't speak their language here on a general basis?

A friend's mother came from Germany after WWII after marrying her American soldier husband. She damned well learned English. She could not survive here if she didn't. What is wrong with making those who are here now conversant in English?

Illegal residents are one thing, but let us not forget that despite this being a melting pot, and with our efforts to include all others in an equal chance to become Americans, that anyone who comes here merely to abuse the system, who refuse to learn our major language, who insist on remaining isolated in their own small world and who would remain without a work ethic are those who we really need to discuss. Until we are all able to come together and see ourselves as equal in one fashion or another, we are not a united country and we are not ever going to be. But we can not be so liberal as to allow such things to continue without limits. Sometimes I can see why Republicans are so against handing out welfare, as I have seen so much abuse in the system with my own eyes that I am often appalled at what gets accepted here.

Let's try and tackle THESE issues without balking. I would trade 100 welfare queens for 100 illegal immigrants because I know the illegal WORKERS are doing exactly that: WORKING.

[Spider Jerusalem]

64. Oh, please.

That nonsense about 'welfare queens' driving Cadillacs and deliberately having more children to get more benefits was a lie when Reagan used it in his 1984 campaign, and it hasn't gotten any more true since.

Some facts (article on the subject, cites official data which disporve these absurd myths you're talking about): http://www.makezine.org/queens.html

[hyphenate]

67. Regardless of the article

I've seen it and lived it. You don't have to tell me its fake, because I've experienced it.

I worked for a temp nursing agency where I was sent out on assignments. Once I was sent to a family living in the projects where the father lived and was ablebodied as I was. His wife had a cast on her arm and the two of them were waiting for her welfare check to go shopping. There wasn't a fucking thing wrong with the man.

My sister had several friends who were welfare frauds. One has a husband who was working and living with her. She was collecting welfare for years and her husband was living there. Her father owned the house they lived in and they never had to pay rent. Eventually, someone reported her and she had to repay back welfare for years.

Another of her friends was single and collecting welfare. She was a drug dealer. She was eventually murdered by her FATHER in the bathtub. (He held her down until she drowned)

Another friend has a son in law paying child support to his exwife. She is collecting welfare for two kids, is bi-polar and who sells all her drugs to make more money. She's a whacko because she doesn't take her pills. And yet, every other week, whether he's on unemployment or not, they take $231 out of his check.

My friend used to work at a retail store AFTER she was a teacher all day. Many would come in with jewelry on befitting someone with a lot more money than they could have had, and paying mucho money for more jewelry and high end items. They left in expensive cars as well. They were on welfare as well.

You can spout statistics all you want, but from experience alone, I can testify to fraud. Many was the time I wanted to report my own sister--who would spend the check she got on drugs and alcohol as well. Several times through the years she robbed our mother for liquor. She is and always will be an alcoholic, and what they will do to drink is often incomprehensible to me as someone who hasn't drunk in over 20 years.

I walked into the welfare office in 1999 after my insurance ran out because I was unable to walk across the room without angina pain. I had already had two angioplasties and a heart attack, and another one was coming soon. I asked for medi-cal, the health coverage in the state of California. That's all I wanted--no money, no food stamps, nothing--just enough medical coverage to keep me alive. I was denied. I screamed at the social worker that if I were a teenager who was pregnant I would get accepted, but I could barely make it anywhere without massive pain. I told her that if I were in Massachusetts I would get coverage. She told me--YES, she SAID THIS--that if I wanted a one way ticket back to Massachusetts the state would pay for it. I was appalled and still am. If I had had the ability to think clearly, I would have taken her name and lodged a formal complaint. But when you're in crisis, it's difficult to think as clearly as I needed to.

So don't give me any fucking "evidence" that there are none who don't abuse the system, because they do. And they always have. I lived in the armpit of Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts for a great part of my life and could see the abuse daily. My mother was knocked over and mugged in a robbery because they had seen her take money out of the bank; I personally was almost SHOT for having 8¢ in my purse--I ran like hell when I reached the corner of my street, but turned around to see one of them draw a gun. I managed to stay alive because the two robbers were interrupted by a couple getting out of a car. I had run to the porch of a friend and was quaking at the door before the couple checked to see if I were all right. Later, when I called the police, they told me that the same two guys had robbed someone else on the same street with a gun in their hands.

If you've lived an uneventful life, you can sure as hell go on blithely without ever understanding this aspect of life. In my own life, however, poverty was always a knock on the door, and not a faraway presence. So despite statistics that someone might have compiled, the facts--to me--remain very, crystal clear.

[mike_c]

2. illegal immigrants make a positive contibution to the U.S. economy...

...and the only sector of the workforce they have any negative impact on is native born high school dropouts.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_29/b3943001_mz001.htm

(snip)

But Inez and Antonio aren't your typical American consumers. They're undocumented immigrants who live and work in the U.S. illegally. When the couple, along with Esmeralda, crossed the Mexican border five years ago, they had little money, no jobs, and lacked basic documents such as Social Security numbers. Guided by friends and family, the couple soon discovered how to navigate the increasingly above-ground world of illegal residency. At the local Mexican consulate, the Valenzuelas each signed up for an identification card known as a matrícula consular, for which more than half the applicants are undocumented immigrants, according to the Pew Hispanic center, a Washington think tank. Scores of financial institutions now accept it for bank accounts, credit cards, and car loans. Next, they applied to the Internal Revenue Service for individual tax identification numbers (ITINS), allowing them to pay taxes like any U.S. citizen -- and thereby to eventually get a home mortgage.

Today, companies large and small eagerly cater to the Valenzuelas -- regardless of their status. In 2003 they paid $11,000 for a used Ford Motor Co. van plus $70,000 more for a gleaming new 30-foot trailer that now serves as headquarters and kitchen for their restaurant. A local car dealer gave them a loan for the van based only on Antonio's matrícula card and his Mexican driver's license. Verizon Communications Inc. also accepted his matrícula when he signed up for cell-phone service. So did a Wells Fargo & Co. (WFC ) branch in the predominantly Hispanic neighborhood in northeast Los Angeles where they live. Having a bank account allows them to pay bills by check and build up their savings. Their goal: to trade up from a one-bedroom rental to their own home. Eventually, they also hope to expand their business by buying several more trailers. Matrícula holders like the Valenzuelas are "bringing us all the money that has been under the mattress," says Wells Fargo branch manager Steven Contreraz.

(snip)

At the same time, though, the fast-growing undocumented population is coming to be seen as an untapped engine of growth. In the past several years, big U.S. consumer companies -- banks, insurers, mortgage lenders, credit-card outfits, phone carriers, and others -- have decided that a market of 11 million or so potential customers is simply too big to ignore. It may be against the law for the Valenzuelas to be in the U.S. or for an employer to hire them, but there's nothing illegal about selling to them.

So with a wary eye on the heated political debate, business is targeting the Valenzuelas and millions of others who have entered the country illegally. Many companies do so more or less openly. Wells Fargo has half a million matrícula accounts, a majority of them, they acknowledge, opened by unauthorized aliens who lack regular residency or citizenship papers. At the Valenzuelas' branch, fully 80% of accounts are opened by matrícula holders. Blue Cross of California, whose parent, WellPoint Inc. (WLP ), is the nation's largest health insurer, sells health insurance to matrícula holders from company-staffed desks set up inside Mexican and Guatemalan consular offices in the U.S. Sprint Corp. (FON ) accepts such an I.D. for cell-phone contracts.

more@link

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/yourmoney/16view.html?ex=1302840000&en=2314f86f5f3affb4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Cost of Illegal Immigration May Be Less Than Meets the Eye
By EDUARDO PORTER
Published: April 16, 2006

CALIFORNIA may seem the best place to study the impact of illegal immigration on the prospects of American workers. Hordes of immigrants rushed into the state in the last 25 years, competing for jobs with the least educated among the native population. The wages of high school dropouts in California fell 17 percent from 1980 to 2004.

But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent.

(snip)

For instance, the availability of foreign workers at low wages in the Nebraska poultry industry made companies realize that they had the personnel to expand. So they invested in new equipment, generating jobs that would not otherwise be there. In California's strawberry patches, illegal immigrants are not competing against native workers; they are competing against pickers in Michoacán, Mexico. If the immigrant pickers did not come north across the border, the strawberries would.

"Immigrants come in and the industries that use this type of labor grow," said David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley.

more@link

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_04/008634.php

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND THE ECONOMY....Remember that study suggesting that illegal immigration had modestly reduced the wages of native-born high school dropouts? Well, it turns out there's even less to that than meets the eye:

George J. Borjas and Lawrence F. Katz....estimated that the wave of illegal Mexican immigrants who arrived from 1980 to 2000 had reduced the wages of high school dropouts in the United States by 8.2 percent.

....When Mr. Borjas and Mr. Katz assumed that businesses reacted to the extra workers with a corresponding increase in investment...their estimate of the decline in wages of high school dropouts attributed to illegal immigrants was shaved to 4.8 percent. And they have since downgraded that number, acknowledging that the original analysis used some statistically flimsy data.

(snip)

So we went from 8.2% to 4.8% to 3.6% — and probably even less if trade flows are taken into account.

Bottom line: illegal immigration has had a (small) positive economic impact on the American economy as a whole; its sole negative impact has been tiny and limited to one segment of the workforce (high school dropouts); and if we're really worried about high school dropouts, everyone agrees they have way bigger problems than competition from illegal immigration anyway.

If this is the best we can come up with after 20 years and 8 million illegal immigrants, there really isn't a serious economic argument to make against immigration from Mexico. Cultural backlash is pretty much all that's left.

on edit: for the record, I live in a state with a very high illegal immigrant population (California) and I'm a high school dropout. And I support full amnesty and citizenship for everyone working in America!

[Maru Kitteh]

10. By the time you factor in negative impact on wages, the drain on services

It affects all citizens and legal immigrants in a very negative way. Those who have children born here should go through a RIGOROUS process, pay their back taxes, do some community service and be allowed to stay. Companies EXPLOITING illegal labor should pay enormous fines and be forced to hire legal workers for fair wages.

ILLEGAL immigration must stop for a huge list of reasons. Legal immigration must be expanded and the federal minimum wage must be raised to about $9.50 or better.

[Erika]

14. How about the good jobs being outsourced?

By the way, the company I mentioned pays $15.00 an hour with insurance benefits to those who have earned the grade of skilled workers. Why should it matter if they are documented or not? Especially when so many skilled jobs are shipped out of the country by larger employers?

Anyone want to address the issue of outsourcing our good paying jobs?

[FreakinDJ]

30. I am sure prevailing rate is much higher

They have been used by many corporations to drive wages down for years.

For allowing Federal gov. and companies to use them in this way I agree we do own many of them some thing. But not all.

A VERY LARGE PRECENTAGE has no intention of staying here. Hence they are sending money home to Mexico. I have worked with many who own nice property back home and they are here, working, sending payments home.

Others come here, set down roots, contribute to our society and deserve to stay. But blanket amnesty should not be granted solely on you are here on a certain date. Citizenship should be earned as it has by the many generations of immigrants in America

[alarimer]

66. They send money home to support the relatives there

It may be the only source of income for the poverty-stricken. Mexico is incredibly corrupt and there is a vast gulf between rich and poor. For many, there is no way out but to try to find some kind of job in the US. Even the maquiladoras are closing- to move to China where wages are even cheaper.

Blame the fucking companies that hire them.

[mike_c]

32. this is a myth-- the data do not support it....

Read the attached articles, especially the NYT piece. This is a vicious, xenophobic myth.

[slaveplanet]

53. This is old

But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent.

There are large numbers of new immigrant workers in Ohio as witnessed by the recent raids. There are many Russians and eastern bloc, Irish and yes Mexicans. They are not all legal. Indians/w/work visas have huge numbers in health care(which seems like the largest employer industry now). When combined with the near complete dismantling of all manufacturing in Ohio and the republican scourge, the effects have been devastating. Unemployment in the inner cities is north of 30% and largely affects the black and Puerto Rican population, but there are many whites without HS diplomas as well. Some neighborhoods have gone through big changes over the last decade.

Without a HS diploma the only option is through the temp agencies or if you know someone. If you go the temp route, you will usually be let go on the day before they're required to hire you for keeps, if you're lucky to get even that far without an infraction. There is still lots of whites and blacks in lawn service, food service, construction, housecleaning and childcare. I doubt they want to lose those jobs or have foreigners tell them they won't do those jobs, but the pressure is definetly on and their wages are falling especially once you take into account currency devaluation, fuel and insurance costs.

[mike_c]

54. the conclusions were drawn from the data during that interval...

...and do not mix "old" data and "new" economic effects. The actual article that published this analysis is less than a month old, so it is the most current available as far as I'm aware. If you know of more recent ANALYSES, as opposed to opinions, I'd greatly appreciate a link.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Yeah, those damn "native high school dropouts"

The difference between native high school dropouts and illegal non-native high school dropouts, are cleverly hidden in the terms "illegal" and "non-native".

Illegal immigration has reduced the wages of 23% of the native population by 12%. This isn't just dropouts. Don't volunteer to give away people's livelihood and be surprised when anyone objects.

http://cis.org/articles/1998/wagestudy/wages.pdf

[Xeric]

3. exactly right

I'm so tired of reading hypocritical diatribes about "illegals" by people who have bought into the divide and conquer mentality. The "english only" idiots and the wall builders can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. This hysteria has been carefully created to distract fro the real problems like the global corporations' attempts to destroy organized labor and gut environmental protections. I've been most surprised by the nonsense I've read here at DU. I expect this kind of garbage from the freepers but not from people that make the pretense of being progressive.

[crispini]

5. if I could nominate an individual post

i'd nominate yours....

[shanti]

50. HELLO!!!

this is a wedge issue like all the rest we've been bombarded with. they are hiding something big for sure.

[Warpy]

7. Business owners can sponsor key workers

who would do the dance of returning to Mexico and then coming back in as soon as all the paperwork cleared. There is no reason Mr. Employer can't do that if he loves his employees unless he likes the power over people who don't have the protection of labor laws (not that any of us do now) and he likes paying them shit.

If he does that one worker at a time, everybody wins.

And yes, I have a friend who is a small business owner who has sponsored people.

[Erika]

11. If you tear down the border, sponsors are not necessary

Let it be free. We are now living and working in a global economy. W is preaching that all the time.

He says it's good for us. So why do we have provincial borders? Especially when outsourcing of our jobs are taking place every day?

You think it's acceptable to protect our minimum wage jobs while our higher paying jobs are shipped out of country without question? What kind of sense does that make? Please ask yourself that.

Labor needs to unite. And now.

[AndyTiedye]

17. My Position Has Always Been To Bust Employers Who Violate LABOR LAWS

The employer who hires "illegals" unknowingly, and follows all the labor laws is not the real criminal here.
Nor are the "illegals" themselves.
The real criminals are the employers who hire illegals and make them work under dangerous conditions and pay them sub-minimum wages.
Those employers use the threat of deportation to keep their workers from asserting their rights.

Those employers are the only ones being served by the current system.

This is no time to be building walls.
The walls you build to keep others out will eventually be used to keep us in.

[FreakinDJ]

35. GOOD idea

Your right

The employers are the real ones exploiting these workers. I know because i have witnessed it for myself. The employers are also the persons cheating on taxes, benifits, workers comp.

You ever wonder what happens to an illegal when he gets injured at work.

He gets maybe $2000 and a ticket home for a permenent injury

[DoYouEverWonder]

59. There is no way you can 'unknowingly' hire an illegal

for 10 years. I can see 6 months, maybe a year because by then a bogus SS # would be noticed by the IRS. That is if you've been paying payroll taxes for these 'unknown illegals'. Oh you mean, the employers didn't bother to pay their payroll taxes for 10 years? That's the only way he could not have noticed that they weren't 'in the system'.

[Finder]

83. Not true...

the money goes into a SS suspense account. 7 billion a year is the latest estimate I read. The IRS does not research them but depends on the employee or employer to give the corrected info.

[FreakinDJ]

33. NOT a good idea

[Warpy]

88. Yeah, and wages won't be necessary either, will they?

Heck, we'll all work for a baloney sandwich at noon if that happens. All the brain work that went to China and India will come back here if they can get us to work for crumbs and sleep in a field somewhere.

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. The employer is now a criminal too.

Now that he "knows" that he's employing illegals, he is obligated to fire them.

Granted, this will jeopardize the unfair advantage in the marketplace that allowed him to be your vendor, but it will provide an opportunity for a legitimate business, which also employs hard workers - american workers and those who went to the effort to come here legally - to prosper.

Those hard workers did have an opportunity to become citizens. Instead, they chose a shortcut. They chose wrong.

We do not need to tear down our border for the same reason that we don't leave our houses unlocked.

[Erika]

15. These workers are hard workers working 100%

They did not choose a short cut. They had green cards which they "forgot to renew". They became, in every way, American citizens, building their lives, family, and home. They are valued by the employer.

How many Americans walking down the street did anything to earn their citizenship? They did nothing. Zilch. Nada. Their hypocrisy in saying others born elsewhere should do more than they were required to do is stupid to say the least. It also borders on total GOP elitism.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. Nonsense

if they are NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS, then they ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS. They obviously chose not to renew their green cards, not to continue the process of registering as resident aliens and obtaining citizenship. If you moved to another country and forgot to renew your work permit or temporary work visa with the immigration bureau of said nation, you would be, quite rightly, in danger of deportation. This is extremely fucking simple.

And native-born citizens of any country on earth don't have to do anything to 'earn' their citizenship; it's theirs by right of birth. That doesn't mean that any other country on the planet is going to just allow you to move there if you wish, nor does it mean you have the right to.

Ignorant and idiotic nonsense.

[Erika]

18. They were too busy with the American dream

for their family. Just like those born here.

[Erika]

20. They have also had children who are 100% American

citizens because they are born here. You want to split up the family?

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Kids are not a get out of jail free card

Parents who chose to commit crimes go to jail and the children go into foster care.

The children born in this country are entitled to their rights as citizens. The parents are not. If the parents think the kids are better off with them, then they should return with them to the parents native country. If not, then they should go into foster care in the US.

[Xeric]

21. provincial bull

What is ignorant and idiotic is thinking that the world stops at the border of this country. I don't give one god damn about citizenship or "right of birth". That's for pseudo-patriotic flag wavers and tribalists. It's the past.
I am tired of this type of neanderthal mentality. These are real people you have pompously dismissed as "illegal". They have hopes, dreams, children and family. They are my neighbors. And guess what? I'd rather have a million of them than one of you. I'm sick of your type of shallow moralizing and legalistic jingoism.
Anyone that can't see the bigger picture here needs to stop pretending they are some kind of progressive deep thinker. They aren't. They are part of the problem.
If you think we need to round up people, break up families, jail them and put them in cattle cars and ship them out of our sacred "homeland" then you are no progressive.

[FreakinDJ]

36. Give your job to an illegal alien your so progressive

Yes it does stop at the boarder. Because no other country in the world would put up with this

[Erika]

41. No bitches about us shipping our jobs to Mexico? n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

55. No one ever said the world stops at the border of this country.

I most certainly don't think that. You quite obviously know nothing about me, and you're reading things into my post that I didn't actually say (which makes me wonder whether you have some sort of reading comprehension problem).

I also happen to KNOW for a fact that if I were to move to Mexico without going through the proper channels, I would most likely eventually be arrested and deported as an illegal immigrant. The same thing goes for any OTHER country in the world. You seem to be convinced otherwise; I invite you to go live in another country without a passport, visa, work permit or resident alien certificate, get a job that pays cash off the books and from which you pay no tax revenue, and see what happens when you assert what you ignorantly seem to think is a human right to live wherever the hell you want with no regard to law or procedure.

It's not 'jingoism'; I'm not one of those idiots who thinks 'America is only for Americans'. I have no problem whatever with ANYONE from any country on Earth moving here if they want, IF they go through the proper legal channels. This should NOT be so hard to understand.

[Xipe Totec]

99. Expiring Green Cards? Nonsense Indeed

A Green Card is a Legal Permanent Resident Card and although the document itself may expire and INS recommends that you keep your card up to date, there is no penalty for having an expired green card. You do not lose your permanent resident status, you do not go to jail, and you are not deported.

"Q. What should I do if my Green Card has already expired? Will the INS penalize me for renewing my card after it expired?

A. If your Green Card has already expired, you should apply to renew your card as soon as possible. Those renewing expired cards will not be penalized."

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/publicaffairs/questsans/00.12GREENCARD_QA.htm

Also, you do not have to be a US Citizen to work in the US, you just have to be a Permanent Resident or have a legal work Visa.

For someone who believes so deeply in enforcing laws to the letter, you show a profound ignorance of the details of such laws.

[FreakinDJ]

22. What about Asians, Russians, Africans.

Why does any one demographic deserve to be in America more then another? By mere geographic ability to sneak into the USA.

There are lots of hard working people from all over the world that would love nothing more then the CHANCE to LEGALLY immigrate. We need guest workers – I can readily think of several million that would love the chance to come here legally and work legally

[Erika]

24. It might have something to do with the Spanish & Indians

(Mexicans) being here before we were.

No, we don't need guest slaves. We did that once, remember?

[FreakinDJ]

37. What makes one Race of people more deserving then another

Because they had access to break the law

That doesn’t work for me

[Erika]

39. You might ask the white Europeans who took over

the North American continent that question.

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. Why does it mater that the Spanish were here before 'we' were?

What in the name of all that's unholy does that have to do with, well, anything at all? So WHAT if Spain, as a colonial power, settled parts of the North American continent before Britain, France, and the Netherlands? Why does that matter at all? It doesn't confer any intrinsic RIGHT upon the descendants of those Spanish colonists to live wherever they wish in the modern United States with no regard to law or international borders. And the Spanish colonial empire included Florida, what is now the American Southwest, Mexico and Central America. It didn't extend to lands claimed by France (the territory comprising the Louisiana purchase, Quebec, Maine, and also modern-day Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama and Mississippi, ceded to Britain by France following the French and Indian War), Britain (most of the original colonies save New York, formerly New Amsterdam and originally a Dutch possession, and also Newfoundland and Nova Scotia)...in all of these places, Spain had no territorial claims, and no Spanish ever settled in these parts of the continent. So saying the Spanish were 'here first' is completely wrong. Nor were the indigenous native populations of these parts of the continent related, save VERY distantly, to those in what is now Mexico, or to those in the American Southwest (and THOSE populations were only very distantly related to one another, so any claim of some inherited 'right' is tenuous at best, and absurd in any case).

Also, the lands lost by Mexico due to Texas gaining its independence, ceded by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and sold in the Gadsden Purchase have all been part of the United States for a century and a half. There has not existed any valid Mexican claim to those lands since that time. It doesn't matter WHO was where first; that's totally irrelevant.

[SoCalDem]

26. Cabinet shops compete in bids ..with MY husband's company

which happens to be UNION..with full bennies.. dental, vision, 401-k, profit sharing, 3 wks paid vacation, tuition assistance, scholarship program for kids, annual Disneyland trip for employees and families, Christmas party, paid time off from Christmas Eve to the day after News Years day...

When a "cheap labor" shop prepares a bid with 1/4 the labor costs, what do you think happens?

my.02

[Erika]

28. $15.00 bucks an hour with benefits

isn't considered cheap around here.

[SoCalDem]

34. Union labor is way more than that..

My husband's management, not union, but our son was union when he worked there and even at his "beginner rate", when he had lots of overtime, sometimes his check was bigger than his Dad's:(

[FreakinDJ]

38. Illegal Workers are used to drive wages down

That is the sole reason the blind eye has been turned to them. Those Union wages are drying up all across America ever since.

Which means an equally blind eye has been turned to the many business tax cheats

[Erika]

40. Why no bitches about U.S. businesses going to Mexico? n/t

[SoCalDem]

42. Here at DU we HAVE been bitching at and about it FOR AGES

That's how so many here have become Lou Dobbs "fans".. When he was touting his book a year or so ago, some here thought he was manna from heaven because it was about outsourcing..

If you do a search on outsourcing, I'm sure you will find HUNDREDS of threads all about outsourcing, and how awful it is, and how much we all hate it.

[Erika]

44. Then why are you focused against the undocumented?

They have to fight for the remaining sludge just like we do. I would think it would be more important to unite the workers, regardless of the country. My .02 cents.

[SoCalDem]

46. not focusing "against" anyone,..merely stating the facts

regarding MY husband's company vs some NON-union cabinet shops in Southern California..

Unions DO need to include everyone, but I fear that lots of undocumented people are afraid to even consider joining unions because there's paperwork involved, and the bosses might even turn them in or threaten to if they even mention unions.. Walmart's tactics..

[Erika]

48. You have a point n/t

[FreakinDJ]

49. No one is against them Erika

In fact many times I have told them the actual value of their work. Most are grossly underpaid, living in fear, and often exploited by the companies that employ them.

The worst is when they get hurt on the job. Often they get a check for $2000 and a ticket home when they have permenent injuries.

All this and they drive down wages too.

It is a lose - lose situation

[Bridget Burke]

90. Has the Union your husband's employees belong to....

Tried to recruit the undocumented?

[SoCalDem]

97. Well.. there are no undocumented at his place, but

as far as their efforts within the industry, I don't know. I have read in the papers occasionally about how unions out here are trying to recruit , so my guess would be..yes.

[FreakinDJ]

45. Brought to you by the same folks that ship jobs to China

Thanks for reminding us all corporations will employ illegal aliens AS WELL AS ship jobs to foriegn countries to further exploit us.

[neverforget]

106. We are getting squeezed from both ends

[Erika]

47. The good jobs have exited the country.

Why have you shown no outrage at that rather than concentrating on people who wish to work hard and succeed, just like we do?

I'm not buying into your agenda. They want decent wages to support their family just like us.

[SoCalDem]

51. Unfortunately, "good jobs" are only as good as the bosses who

own or operate the companies..

Since the industrial "engines" used to be in the North east US, the "pull" has been to find cheaper locations and labor..The south (yes our very own south) wooed these plants/mills/factories to "great climate, year-round sunshine, available/eager workforce (translation: poor people, desperate to work for less than "northern" wages), "friendly" municipal regulators, cheap land..."...you name it..

The companies re-locating down south never looked back at the northern cities they decimated, or to the now-devastated former employees..they were chasing the "cheap labor..cheap operation costs"..

It's not surprising that those same jobs were eventually sent to Mexico, and then to India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Myanmar, VietNam, Samoa, you name it..

Greedy owners/bosses are always looking for cheaper.. They would prefer FREE, but real slavery is a no-no these days..

Unions in the north started collapsing when the right-to-work(cheap) states wooed jobs away..they never recovered.

[Erika]

43. This state is not union. n/t

We are also the 44th lowest wage state in the nation.

[Erika]

29. How come no reaction to Americans moving jobs to Mexico?

Out of curiousity.

[SoCalDem]

31. Been there done that..many times

I was responding to a particular.. cabinet shops hiring undocumented workers..

[B Calm]

57. and cheap labor cons have the damn balls to say they are

doing the work that American citizens don't want to do!

[ecstatic]

65. Whether or not "illegals" pay taxes is dependent on employer's method of

pay. Is the pay under the table? If so, neither the employer nor the worker pays taxes. If an employer pays taxes on a fake SS number then I'm sure they'd realize really quickly that the numbers were false.

[FlaGranny]

73. I never could understand how ANY

employer could afford to pay "under the table." They lose their largest business tax deduction that way. The only way to make it work is to grossly cheat on your income taxes, either by illegally reporting the "under the table" pay as pay to subcontractors, or grossly under-reporting income OR inflating other expenses. All three are completely illegal. Either way you cut it, these business owners are breaking the IRS's laws big time - in addition to employing illegals.

[Finder]

85. No way to know the SS is false.

As I stated above, unmatched funds are put in a suspense acct that currently holds 7 billion annually.

Deadbeat dads and others do this to avoid having their wages garnished as well.

[SmokingJacket]

74. I don't know how an employer could not know...

unless they purposefully don't want to know. You need a SS number to hire people, right?

[Dr. Jones]

80. YOU ARE CITING BUSH FTAA POLICY!

Look it up. Free Trade Area of the Americas or FTAA. Borderless Canada/U.S./Mexico trading bloc being implemented by Fox/Bush.

Good luck in your findings.

Be careful what you wish for.

[savemefromdumbya]

84. Workers rule

not greedy multimillion $ salaried bosses

[sendero]

87. There is nothing quite so annoying..

... as folks, in their determination to be "more liberal than thou" who are willing to sell fellow Americans into joblessness to satisfy their personal idea of how everything should work.

Fallacy one: illegal immigrants only take jobs Americans won't do. fucking BULLSHIT. They take jobs Americans won't do for $5 per hour. Farm work, you'd have a point. A cabinet shop, I rest my case.

Fallacy two: illegal immigrants pay taxes. Sure, the ones who are actually on a payroll do, but very large numbers of them are not on a payroll, they are paid in cash and they send half of that cash to Mexico every weekend - ever heard of Orlandi Valuta?

Fallacy three: there has to be an either-or solution to the problem. Bullshit. The immigrant workers we actually need should be allowed to enter under some legal rubric. Those that we don't should go home. I'd love to buy a hacienda in Mexico. I cannot. Their government won't allow foreigners to own property and becoming a citizen would be very difficult. As is their right.

Consider this: Mexicans have had 100 years to build an economy in their own country, how is coming up here going to help with that?

Allowing illegal immigration to go unchecked is functionally equivalent to outsourcing of jobs. Please explain to us all how great that is for Americans.

[Bridget Burke]

92. Finding a way to regularize the "illegals"....

Will allow them to ask more from their employers. Thus our wages will not be driven down--especially if the workers band together.

The USA has done a lot to "help" Mexico's economy for more than a century--what a shame we've usually helped the bosses.

In Texas, everybody pays sales tax. And property tax is passed on to renters.

Foreigners CAN buy land in interior Mexico. Buying land near a coastline or the Border is more complex; not that the Border is that attractive. If you have money to become an hacendado, the lawyer fees should be no problem.

www.mexonline.com/propmex.htm

[sendero]

93. Sorry....

.. if I was wrong about owning property in Mexico. Thanks for the link, I will read more.

The situation we have now with illegal immigration is untenable. We let anyone who wants to come here and take any job they want to. Despite what so many armchair analysts here think, a LOT of them are paid in cash, under the table, off the books. They are doing jobs Americans could use, not farm labor or mowing grass. I've worked in a business where this is done routinely, I know what I am talking about here.

This is bad on several levels. First off, if you want to own a business where this is a common practice, you have a big decision to make. Either you do what everyone else is doing and risk your net worth or even jail time should some @#$%# decide to start actually enforcing the law, or you hire only legals and do everything by the book and then you are at a serious competitive disadvantage. This was one factor in my decision to get out of the business.

We need some immigrant labor, that is true. We should accommodate this labor with dignity, not have people being smuggled in an 18-wheeler trailer. And then we should enforce our laws with everyone else. Trust me, there is absolutely NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER to stop illegals from working here in Dallas. None. Why, because businessmen like the arrangement, so long as they don't feel like they have to worry about getting busted. And also trust me, most of them are not worried.

[Little Star]

96. .

[Scout1071]

91. Many undocumented workers are paid cash. So no. They are not

paying the same taxes we are paying. How about they start kicking in for roads and schools that they utilize?

I'm all for legal immigration, but it's bullshit to say they pay the same taxes. They don't. And yes, they are a strain on our already weak system.

[Finder]

95. They pay sales tax, do they not?

When they pay rent they are paying a portion of the property tax, right? Other than day laborors who prob get paid under the table, many do pay into the system.

[Scout1071]

100. Great. I'll just stop paying Uncle Sam 30% of my check

and encourage my friends and families to do the same. That way we can all stop paying for schools, roads, etc. I'll just tell them that I pay sales tax and that is good enough.

The 30% Uncle Sam takes out of my check every week is far more than sales tax.

Don't get me wrong. I want people to come here and have a better life for generations to come. I just want them to do it legally and contribute. Right now there is an unfair strain on our schools and social services. There is no debating that.

[Little Star]

101. What you said Scout1071 n/t

[Finder]

102. Well part of that you get back..

in social security, medicare...some day. Also, unless you are one of the smart ones who doesn't use Fed withholding as a way to let the gov borrow from you without interest, you get deductions at the end of the year and most likely a refund.

[Scout1071]

103. Finder.....they need to be legal.

Period. Even Cesar Chavez was strongly against illegal immigration.

I'm equally against it because of the strain it causes our society and because of the harm it does to the workers themselves. It causes all of our wages to be driven down and forces them to work for nearly slave wages. In the long run, nobody benefits but big business.

I'm not trying to be harsh on any particular group of people. But the system is broke and it needs fixing.

AND we need to truly address the economic crisis in Central America that is making them flee to the US.

[Finder]

105. Read Economic Hitman then...

if you want to know why Latin Americans are struggling.

I think the whole issue has too much stereotyping involved. Most undocumented workers I am familiar with make fair wages. I am sure there are businesses that exploit some of these workers too, and I do not condone that by any means. I do think the guest worker program will deter that exploitation.

I agree the system needs reform but not by making hardworking people or the ones that help them felons.

If big biz is the one profiting then they are the ones we should be tossing out, not the people who come here to make life better for themselves and their families.