Those of you who are upset by Illegal Migrant Workers...

[benburch]

Those of us with Native American bloodlines would like to ask you to get your asses right back to Europe now. We didn't ask you here, and though sometimes we allowed you places to stay, you broke the deal and took everything. YOU are illegal.

Seriously folks, an immigrant NEVER took an American's job. NOT EVER.

The problem is with the Employing Class. They cut wages over and over and over until Americans cannot afford to hold those jobs, and the only people who WILL take them are illegal immigrants who are so desperate for work that they will take ANYTHING.

So, we don't need to felonize and jail these workers!

REPEAL the Taft-Hartley Labor Act of 1947.

Place a TARIFF on the fruits of foreign cheap labor and the expatriation of American companies.

SUBSIDIZE American made goods.

TAX the rich at the rates JFK set.

REPEAL "right to work" laws.

ENACT living wage laws.

And, finally, offer CITIZENSHIP to all who want to join the American Dream.

How can you help? JOIN the IWW. - ONE - BIG - UNION - http://www.iww.org/



"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life."

[FloridaPat]

1. Actually, lots of immigrants have taken American jobs. There are

lots of stores - and I know people this has happened to - where the Americans had to teach the immigrant their job so the American could be laid off. This has happened big time in the computer programmer industry. Most places with programmers have an immigrant staff of 25-75%. Meanwhile, we American programmers have trouble finding jobs.

I will check out your web site though.

[benburch]

2. Again, that was not the workers doing that.

That was the EMPLOYERS.

We cannot blame the workers for this as they only want the same things we do; To support their families.

[Thtwudbeme]

4. Yep, the workers didn't walk into an office and demand a job at a lower

wage. They answered an advertisement for the position.

People on DU keep forgetting that somehow.

[Duppers]

122. think unions...

and union busting scabs then.

[mitchum]

156. Yes, they ARE scabs

[0007]

137. ...and then those greedy filthy employers lobby for laws against

protesting and invent protest zones.

[benburch]

173. And that is why we must drive them out.

And TAKE back what is ours.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

190. Hang on, hang on...

If there had not been the immigrant workers available, the employers would not have employed them, and would have employed other people instead.

Does "I only wanted to support my family" excuse burglary?

[AlamoDemoc]

3. competition has no citizenship....workers here don't export jobs,

corporations do....think about it!

[alfredo]

68. Supply and demand. The Corporatist demand slave wage workers

and illegals supply the low wage complaint work force.

Cut the demand and the supply will dry up.

Fines for hiring illegals mean nothing if the government will not even attempt to collect (as we see in the mining industry.)

Add seizure of property to the law and see if business changes its tune.


Anyway, US farm subsidies could be undercutting Mexican farmers forcing the Mexican farmer to head north to survive.

[mitchtv]

115. the programmmers are generally legal, no?

what do they call the H 1B visas? or something.Too bad the programmers felt they didn't need unions.

[petgoat]

143. I read about a scheme to lease cruise ships, fill them up with

foreign programmers, and anchor them just outside the territorial waters of the USA.
That way the US company could keep in good communication with them. Don't know if
it's gonna happen or not.

[Igel]

5. A bit heavy on the sloganeering.

I presume that no European immigrant took any Native American person's 'job'? Interesting, the implications of the slogans, no?

But the problem is that slow, long-term invasions seldom follow the rules of legal/illegal immigration.

Local tribes when 'whitey' landed on the shores had a few recourses: they could fight them, they could retreat, they could use them. Many used them for short-term political gain; a very few folded; some fought. Had they organized and all fought at once, it's highly unlikely Europeans would have succeeded in getting a toe-hold on the mainland for many a year. But they didn't all fight, because there was no "Native American" or "Indian" or "indigenous" consciousness or "ethnicity"--that's something that came later. The Tlaxcala hated the Mexica more than the Spanish; N. England tribes found that with their numbers decimated by incidental contacts a few years later, they could spare the land, but use the Europeans against their neighbors, or against each other for their own petty political ends; tribes in Texas found that using the Spanish/Mexican colonialists against other tribes could be advantageous at times, at other times they played the French and the Spanish off each other.

Moreover, while the Spanish and English were certainly all for converting the natives, the English at least recorded a fair amount of respect. But since the Indians were culturally insensitive to English behavioral norms, and the English were culturally insensitive to Indian behavioral norms, this respect was lost over the next hundred to a hundred and fifty years. This is a lesson that is under-taught, because thinking that the English landed as racists is the going thing, but it's an important lesson.

[benburch]

7. Nobody had "JOBS" then.

You European White Devils invented those. And you EMPLOYERS (and slave holders) took everything from the people.

[EFerrari]

32. That's right. The division between "work" and "play"

is largely a European invention.

[JuniperLea]

125. How can you claim to be against racism and call names?

European White Devils?

If you are going to chastise others I think it would behoove you to take the higher ground here.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

191. Tell me.

what would your response be to DUers with European ancestors referring to you and your ancestors as "Red Devils"?

While I appreciate your strength of feeling, may I suggest that grossly intemperate and offensive language does your case no service at all.

[Bridget Burke]

15. If the English were so "sensitive"....

Why do countries colonized by Spain still have so many citizens descended from the pre-Columbian inhabitants? The English & Anglo-Americans were more efficient in killing them off or moving them to "reservations." The Spanish & French conversions were culturally insensitive, but left more people alive.

European diseases wiped out many indigenes, but an English officer was the first to actually give them blankets used by smallpox victims.

[Jim Warren]

22. Why do countries colonized by Spain still have so many citizens descended

Good question and asked by me to a group of academics from Spain I worked with a number of years ago.
Their answer: "We (the Spanish) never thought we were staying here (the New World)."

[JuniperLea]

126. The American Indians did not own land

It was against their ways.

My people literally met my people at Plymouth Rock. Apparently I have nowhere to go... I certainly can't send just a portion back to Europe... and although there are Knights in the family blood-line, I doubt England would take me.

Nope, you can't take sloganeering literally at all.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

192. Take up residence Midatlantic on an ocean liner?

[JuniperLea]

195. Ah! Sure and I'd be a scurvy lass then!

Adrift in the sea, my ancestry and me
Alone on the waves, though we started in caves
Ahoy ye! Avast! The homeland at last!
Adrift in the sea, my ancestry and me



Pardon me whilst I wax poetic...

[converted_democrat]

6. I think our party would be wise to push for a higher minimum wage..

I think it was Oregon (Somebody correct me if I have the state wrong, but I think I have it right.) that did it, and it worked out really well for the state's economy.. The pukes tried to claim that it would be bad for small business and that it would be a job killer, but it had the opposite effect. It would just solve so many problems, if we could get it done.. It would make for something like an extra 200- 300 a month for every minimum wage worker, and that would really help so many.. If corporations had to pay 8.00 an hour to anyone and everyone, it would really level the playing field for everyone, and improve America's overall quality of life..

on edit- It would also help our party's reputation as the party of the people. I think we would be wise to hit on the point that pukes support corporations, and Dems support the people..

[benburch]

8. A Living Wage is mandatory. nt

[Little Star]

11. A Living Wage is mandatory, I agree!

But if there was such a thing AS A Living Wage here Americans would do all the jobs including shoveling crap and we would not need to import workers!
This corporate welfare bunch just wants SLAVES and Mexico is supplying them.
We need to focus on corporations that hire illegals. Anyone who wants to become a legal citizen of the USA has a process to do so and many do. Does anyone want to go on up to Canada illegally and start demanding the same rights as Canadian citizens? Yeah, that would work!

[bryant69]

9. I agree with much of your prescription for fixing the problem

Certianly the problem isn't that illegals want to come to America, but that American industry is exploiting that desire to create a criminal exploitive economy.

That said, we do need to take appropriate steps as a nation to ensure that people come into this country legally. Having an influx of illegals is dangerous to us and dangerous to them (probably more dangerous to them, in all fairness).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[benburch]

10. Exactly.

Open the borders significantly. Make immigration a matter of proving who you are and not having conviction for a violent crime on your record or the plague. Then all will be LEGAL immigrants.

[TahitiNut]

13. What does it say about a country ...

... that nearly 20% of its citizens reside (and work) in another country? :eyes:

[benburch]

27. That it is impovrished. nt

[TahitiNut]

37. An oil exporter, huh?

:eyes: Vincente Fox sure doesn't look impoverished to me.

Hint: Mexico has a Gini Index over 0.50.

[benburch]

42. The ruling classes are never impovrished.

There or here.

That is why America exists; To give the poor a place to be Free;

“The New Colossus”

by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

[TahitiNut]

90. Nice postcard.

It's convenient as long as they have strong backs and healthy legs. How about offering that to the people of Darfur or Bangladesh? If we want to talk about "impoverished," then let's not talk about people who're wealthy in comparison. Let's talk about Haiti. I didn't see anyone marching and protesting our interference in Haiti's politics, us helping keep/return an oppressive ruling elite in power there ... or protesting our horrible treatment of Haitian refugees.

:shrug: :eyes:

[Spider Jerusalem]

188. Actually...

America exists because a bunch of wealthy landowners got pissed off at George III and were able to exploit pre-existing antagonism towards British colonial policies to their advantage. Saying 'America exists to give the poor a place to be free' sounds nice, but it's extremely ahistorical. You shouldn't confuse myth with reality.

[Arkansas Granny]

12. Along with all of the debate on illegal immigrants, I have a question.

These workers send a lot of money out of the country to support their families. I have found several articles that show the effect of this money on the economies in the countries where it received, but what is the overall effect on the American economy when this money is sent outside our country?

The Economic Effects of the Money Immigrants Send Home
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/03/the_economic_ef.html

Report: Latino immigrants send $30 billion to home countries.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/05/22/news/top_stories/20_45_075_21_04.txt

Sending The Money Home
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:20724935~pagePK:64257043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html

[Bridget Burke]

17. Immigrants have always sent money home....

And some Americans have always complained. If you're going to research the "problem"--don't start with the 21st century.



http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-133.html

[Arkansas Granny]

29. I'm not complaining and I don't know if it's a "problem". I'm just

curious by nature and didn't know the answer. If I was going to research it, I would start with this century since this is the one that affects us now.

[Bridget Burke]

33. You should definitely start with this century....

Otherwise, you might discover that some of your ancestors also sent money home.

[Gormy Cuss]

84. The question is a good one.

Since there are so many estimations thrown around about whether undocumented workers have a net positive or negative effect on the economy. The estimation should attempt to quantify the dollars sent abroad accurately. If the amount is grossly overestimated thatwould provide more fuel for the "illegal immigrants as drain" argument. If the amount is underestimated, the positive contribution would be overstated.

I tend to think that the total effect of dollars sent abroad by illegal immigrants is negligible because it is not a statistic highlighted in the anti-immigrant arguments.

[Arkansas Granny]

109. Actually, the amount of money being sent abroad by legal or

illegal immigrants is not the whole story. One of the articles notes that on average, there is a 10 to 15 percent fee charged on these remittances. Is this another reason why corporate America seems to favor allowing undocumented workers to remain in the country?

[Gormy Cuss]

112. That would suggest a reason to favor immigration period, not

just undocumented workers. As I said, I think there's not much focus on this segment of $$$ so I tend to think in the big economic picture it doesn't matter. To the companies who process those remittances it does, naturally. ;-)

[adwon]

14. Holy shit

I finally saw somebody mention Taft-Hartley! Granted, I haven't been hunting for it, but it's nice to see someone else agrees. By the way, don't forget Landrum-Griffin. It had some bad aspects as well.

Thanks for making me smile.

[benburch]

25. From your mouth...

to Dog's ear! :D

[mitchtv]

116. How about repealing the Cuban Readjustment act?

and stop giving them a free pass, with wet foot dry foot, while other Latinos have to apply at the embassy in their Capital?. Why do they get a preferntial deal?

[benburch]

163. I'd repeal it...

And open immigration to all who are not violent criminals and who don't have the plague.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. Um. There was a war, and you lost.

This isn't an ethnic thing. You can tell that to the Confederates too.

And, I'm sorry, but illegal immigrants do take jobs. We have legal immigrants who have been picking crops for generations. Real American citizens who will never see a pay raise because more illegals come in every day.

You should have the courage to fully understand what the consequences of your decisions are before you tell others, because, even if you don't know the facts, they do.

[benburch]

18. You seem to be totally immune from facts.

I bet some of your best friends are "ethnic".

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. I'm willing to look at any information you have that can prove that

the American Indian beat the US Military and won the West. Outside of a major battle, here or there, it wasn't enough. I just don't see any point in trying to rewrite history and ask for the country back because people are going to think you're a little weird. People will fight you again, if necessary. Is that what you're suggesting? Open revolution? Another war?

I think you need to start with a solid reality base and from where I'm looking, you're on shaky ground.

As for the ethnic remark, I assumed your were going to play the race card, so I trumped you before you got there. You see, if you want to turn back the clock now and call the shots, what's to stop the Confederates from doing the same thing and calling back their plantations and their slaves?

[grottieyottie]

44. Funny that...

I just don't see any point in trying to rewrite history and ask for the country back because people are going to think you're a little weird.

What are your feelings on Israel?

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. Israel is a soveriegn country which needs to learn to depend less

on the US. Or if it needs US assistance, it needs to take that into account before it does hostile things like spy on us, or sell sensitive information to our enemies.

[grottieyottie]

70. No, Israel/Palestine in context

I just don't see any point in trying to rewrite history and ask for the country back because people are going to think you're a little weird.

No, Israel/Palestine in context to this statement.

Do you think Palestinians are 'weird' they are asking for their country back? Or do you think the Jews were 'weird' when they asked for their country back (which they lost millenia ago) after WW2?

I am just curious where you set your dates as to what is considered viable conquest and what isn't.

[The Backlash Cometh]

95. I think the fighting needs to stop.

But you're asking for something that in context is 50 years old versus something that is 200 years old. Obviously, if the Indians want to begin a counter-revolution to take back this country, then it's for this country to set up a counter-fight. There will be war.

Frankly, there was a time when Israel had a chance to end this peacefully, but they went after more land and extended the war. There are options, always options and opportunities. But, because Sharon and Netanyahu had a big Uncle Sam to look over their shoulder, they didn't compromise when maybe they should have.

There are always options. I'm just saying that open borders doesn't solve problems. In fact, it hides the problems that are occuring in other nations, and it expands on our own. If you really want to be brilliant, find the reason why they're fleeing their countries, and if it's due to our own policies, then we may have the power to do something about it.

[benburch]

46. You are the one who brought up "race".

Which you should know is not a concept that has any real validity in human genetics, and which MUST have been on the forefront of YOUR mind to bring it up here.

My argument applies equally to people coming into this country from England.

Let me tell you a story;

I know a woman, a sexworker, who was born in England one day before her parents moved here.

She has never been to England.

Never wants to be to England.

Does not consider herself to be anything except American.

But she is undocumented. Part of the reason she is a sexworker is that she can avoid having to provide proof of right to work that way.

She also cannot apply for residency because she is already here illegally, and so would be deported and would have to live for ten years in a country that is not hers.

And they still wouldn't let her back here because they will not let sexworkers or ex-sexworkers come here.

Nice huh?

I can only assume you support oppressing my friend? Even though she never came here of her own free will?

You are such a nice person.

:sarcasm:

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. One sex worker versus 12 million undocumented aliens from Mexico.

Yeah, talk about non sequiturs.

There are lots of illegal aliens in this country from various parts of the world. Most of them come in quietly, keep their heads down and become citizens through normal channels where they can. Nobody says anything about it, because they aren't here in large numbers, organizing and rioting in the streets. And that is the issue. Are you trying to overthrow the United States of America in order to have your way? I don't think you're going to succeed.

The bottom line is, that this problem seems to be primarily targeted to Mexicans for a reason. Because they have slipped over in large numbers in a short period of time and now, with their numbers, they're demanding citizenship.

I don't think you have a right to use the plight of every immigrant in this country to appeal your case, because quite frankly, I think most people were happy to look the other way as long as A) there was enough work for everyone who wanted a job and B) there weren't people here demanding citizenship without even proving that they wanted to obey our laws and become good Americans.

You just want to wave your pink feel good wand and make it all go away. Fugghetabout it. Outline a plan. Show me how we're going to absorb all these people for decades to come without having to deal with the problems that comes with over-population. In fact, show me you're versed on this and write ten of the top problems we have due to over-population.

[benburch]

65. Again you bring up the Mexicans?

Why do they bother you so?

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. You brought up the sex worker.

This topic is not about 12 million illegal sex workers demanding to be American citizens. This topic is about 12 million illegal Mexicans who demand to be Americans. I think I made it very clear that I had no problem with the way things had been handled before. It's the sheer numbers that are creating complications for everyone.

[benburch]

73. That's just her profession.

Had I said she was a massage therapist, it would have been OK with you?

You are digging your hole deeper with each posting, and I feel the need to remind you of the first rule of holes;

When you find yourself in one, stop digging.

[The Backlash Cometh]

87. This issue is not about one massage therapist, it's about

12 million illegal Mexicans protesting in the streets, demanding to be citizens.

When are you going to face reality?

[mitchtv]

174. there are many, many Mexican teens/adults in the same

situation, many don't speak Spanish. they were brought here as kids. I feel for your friend.I call them Mexican mericans, cause they know nowhere else but here.

[philosophie_en_rose]

110. And you brought up the Mexican part.

Your focus on undocumented workers from Mexico completely ignores the points in this thread, and indicates a suspicious focus on the "reverse race" card. :eyes:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

77. OK. The white English sex worker didn't count

Don't know why.

How about this? A young woman, 18, brought to this country when she was a year old. She's an "illegal," even though she'll graduate high school with honors. And even though she'll graduate with honors, she can't go to college in the U.S. And she can't go to school in some hispanic country b/c she doesn't speak a lick of Spanish. But she *can* scrub toilets for some pasty-faced white dude who won't pay a living wage to a "citizen" to do the same thing. That means that the young woman is more likely to make poor lifestyle choices, and breed more kids who will be smart-but-doomed.

Those of us who believe that in North America there is no such thing as an immigrant don't have to put forward a plan.

It's the people who want to punish a young woman for the accident of her birth who need to show a plan, and prove that it isn't every bit as hateful as every other "solution" put forward by racially motivated societies to protect the "haves" from the "have-nots."

Several generations ago, the English had a "plan" for my multi-great grandfather. The plan, in England, was death for "treason." My g-g-g-g-great grandfather came here illegally to keep from being killed and hid out in the wilds of Appalachia, a fugitive Jacobite Scot.

This nation will absorb immigrants until such time as the employers are reigned in from their avarice to pay a living wage.

[Scout]

104. I'd blame her PARENTS who brought her here

and didn't get her citizenship. Did her parents come here illegally? Too bad for her, what they did, but not our fault or responsibility.

edit: fixed grammar

[GrpCaptMandrake]

120. Somewhere further down

there's a remark about not embracing the ancient, filthy concept of "blood taint," and yet there it is. The sins of the parents must be visited on the child. They came here illegally, bringing her illegally as well. So their sins are visited upon her.

Shall I take it then, that there should be no citizenship for her, either, that we will condemn her to a lifetime of drudgery because of the accident of her birth?

The Wrong-wing is out there openly espousing an end to the right of citizenship by birth. What's next, when so-called "liberals" on these boards are only a stone's throw away from the same idea?

[zapp]

52. And I bet you like the fact that the Native Americans were slaughtered too

let's see... he mentions:
A: US Military
B: Revolution
C: Race Card
D: Confederates

I think you have some latent tendencies toward hate.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. I see myself as a realist.

Frankly, I'm on the side of the Indians whenever I see a reenactment of the Little Big Horn.

But, the real truth is that bleeding heart liberals frustrate me. Outside of this forum, no one is going to listen to you. And that frustrates me because when you go out there, people are going to assume that you represent Democrats or lefties or Liberals. They will tune you out because what you want does not consider the consequences of your actions, just like Republicans are so far to the right that they don't consider the consequences of their actions. And the worst thing of all, is that people will eventually think that YOU represent the left and that means that they will assume that you represent ME.

I see you like little fairies dancing above the sugar plums, just like some people see the right like men in pink tutus.

[stepnw1f]

166. "Bleeding Heart Liberals"

no shit Rove

[JuniperLea]

129. American Indians were immigrants too

Making the entire argument moot.

[petgoat]

130. Not if they were first. nt

[JuniperLea]

141. That makes no sense

Do you know for a fact they were the first?

It was not "their" land. They came here. When the Europeans came here there were no laws to break. The American Indians did not consider land to be something people could own... that was an idea introduced by the Europeans and the Spaniards.

[petgoat]

144. "It was not "their" land. They came here. "

Well 10,000 years ago when the glaciers retreated, the Swedes and the Norwegians and the Scots
moved into empty lands up north. I don't see how you could argue that Scotland, Sweden, and
Norway aren't "theirs".

[JuniperLea]

145. At that point in history

The American Indians did not consider land to be something a person could own. It is wrapped up in their belief system, a very Animistic belief system, that the Earth was a Spirit like themselves and could not be owned. Land ownership was an idea introduced by the Spaniards and the Europeans.

And beyond that, anthropologists are still arguing what group of people were here in North America first.

I'm just saying the argument is silly and has no basis in fact.

I'm part American Indian and I'm also a Mayflower decendant... I'm not sure where I belong anymore.

[petgoat]

147. "did not consider land to be something a person could own."

Did not consider it something an individual could own. But they fought wars over tribal
territories, particularly after encroaching whites drove eastern tribes west.

[JuniperLea]

152. DUH! Read the whole post!

This was an idea that was introduced! It is NOT part of their original culture. Yet one more way my people screwed my people over.

You have resorted to splitting hairs. Fighting my peoples' wars all over again will in no way help the current situation.

[Thtwudbeme]

45. I have never seen you post anything like this

Good lord, you can't believe what you wrote.

If you do, then might I suggest reading "1491."

I was pretty stunned to see your name on this ignorant post.

[YankeyMCC]

50. I've disagreed with many things

I've seen posted here in my 1.5 years or so here at DU. But really for the first time I'm shocked at some of what I've seen people posting in regards to this subject.

(I've found other things aimed at atheists and a few things aimed at xians offensive but not surprising, because I've seen it before, so it's the surprise that makes what I've seen in regards to illegal immigration shocking)

[AllieB]

59. It seems that the immigrant issue has brought out latent racism

here on DU. These threads and the Duke threads have made me question just how 'progressive' some of these posters claim to be.

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. Check my journal and then dare call me racist.

I believe in making decisions in a holistic manner. I have been adamant that open borders are not an answer. People here say they're not in favor of open borders, yet their conclusions will results in just that.

[benburch]

76. Many people who do not think of themselves as racist...

...still espouse racist ideas and act like racists.

We all justify ourselves. Alphonse Capone saw himself as a humanitarian; Not only did he invent the idea that dairy products should have a freshness date so children would not have to drink bad milk (and used "muscle" to make the dairies do that) but he invented the concept of the soup kitchen, and fed much of Chicago through the Great Depression. Of course, he was still a cold-blooded killer.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

79. Don't forget:

Mussolini made the trains run on time! :rofl:

[The Backlash Cometh]

89. There are limits to everything.

In the early 70s and the 80s, if you knew back then, what we know today, would you have made any effort to shut down gay bathhouses? Would you have faced your liberal demons, in order to save lives? I know what Randy Shilts would have done.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

100. Now there's an avoidance of the topic at hand!

I assume you're referring to the early ravages of HIV/AIDS. Newsflash: ignorance brought that on. Institutional, governmental ignorance fostered by the Raygun Administration and founded on the bigotry of fundamentalist "christianity." It was well into the Second Raygun term before he ever even mentioned the disease. And by then, gay folk were dying in their thousands. But it didn't matter. Remember when Falwell called HIV a "Gay Plague" sent by God to wipe out the Sodomites? That was the official policy of the Raygun Administration.

Shutting down the bathouses to stop HIV/AIDS is the intellectual equivalent of banning blankets to cure smallpox.

Sorry. I don't have any liberal "demons." What kind of demons do you have? One certainly wonders.

[The Backlash Cometh]

103. You are avoiding taking responsibility for your own behavior.

You MUST read, "And the Band Played on." You only are expressing the Liberal point of view, and the truth is, there was a lot the Liberals did during the 80s which only made the situation worse for themselves. Fighting to keep those bathhouse open was the main thing. Secondly, as you pointed out in your post, blaming the Reagan Administration for everything is the other.

I bring this up because this was the turning point for the Liberal Party. It was the mishandling of the AIDs crisis, and not taking any personal responsibility for your own personal decisions that made moderates stop siding with you. You simply refused to think holistically and you lost the opportunity to represent others.

You're doing the same thing with this immigrant issue. You just want to make quick calls to determine what is right or wrong, without looking at the long-term consequences. I'm appealing to you to think about the problems you will bring into this country with over-population. It's like you people don't know how to think long-term. I would really hate to see the Democrats lose the middle again because you're stuck on one issue.

If you really want to help alleviate the illegal alien immigration problem, then go to their countries and find out why they're leaving. Improve their economic situations. Admit NAFTA was a disaster. Start there.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

108. As the saying goes in Court,

You're "assuming facts not in evidence."

The only point of view I'm espousing is my own, not the "liberal," "conservative" or "anarcho-syndicalist."

You also assume I haven't read "And the Band Played On." I have. It didn't change the fact that ignorance was the real killer at the front-end of the HIV/AIDS crisis and that the ignorance was fostered by that old, hateful fool of a "morning in America" Raygun.

You reference "the Liberal Party." I have no idea what you're talking about, apart from betraying yourself as a part of the problem and not the solution. There is a Liberal Party in England. Probably in Ireland and Germany, as well. There is no such thing as "the Liberal Party" in the United States. There's a Democratic Party and a Republican Party and a whole host of circle-jerk wannabes (Greens, etc.)

I sincerely doubt your ability to speak for "the middle," because you clearly aren't part of it. You apparently want a Democratic Party that looks a little more like the Republicans, and that means a Democratic Party as invested in hate and divisive rhetoric as the Republicans are and have been and way the heck over toward the political right.

Your cries of "over-population" ring hollow with me. This country still has room to expand. It doesn't have it in NY or SoCal, perhaps, but it does have room.

Your willingness to blame the desperate and the hopeless for a problem that is economically based and promulgated by the people/companies who pay the low wages and drive the wages down to the point that American citizens can't take the jobs and survive betrays a pro-business mindset that will only make the problem worse.

As the OP noted, ending "right-to-work" laws and enacting living wage legislation will make it much less palatable for the coyotl who bring the "illegals" here, as well as making it economically less likely that an individual employer will hire them. When the jobs aren't available, they won't come. When they stay home, they can attempt to effect the change there that you advocate. Add to that a real criminal statute that provides for no less than five years in Club Fed for anyone caught employing an illegal, and you will see the "problem" solved. But none of the anti-poor movement will ever move in that direction because, after all, this "debate" is a fraud, a phoney, a sham ginned up in an election year when "conservatives" have completely run out of gas (almost literally) and out of ideas and, once again, are compelled to run on their same, tired old race-baiting tactics. It's pathetic, really, that our country has come to this.

And where the heck do you come off accusing me of supporting NAFTA? You really do paint with a broad brush, don't you?

It's even more sad that someone who considers him/herself a Democrat would actually buy into the simple bigotry that it's the fault of the poor. The poor can't do a damned thing that the money in this country doesn't either mandate or encourage. You're trying to take a pyramid down from the base up. It never works.

[benburch]

113. Facts don't matter to him Bob.

You might as well argue with Archie Bunker.

[The Backlash Cometh]

133. Over-population, global warming.

Do you really think you can afford this little side-road called denial?

[The Backlash Cometh]

131. Where's the blame on liberals for the way the AIDS crisis was handled?

It wasn't just a failure from Reagan. A problem of that magnitude had lots of people to blame, and I think you are being a little self-serving by omitting the fact that it could have been handled better by Liberals as well. If we're suppose to be so darn smart, why didn't we face that our behavior was only making things worse?

As far as claiming there is enough land in the USA to take on the ills of the earth, what are you proposing? 40 acres and a mule for everyone? Sign me up. I could use a good 40 acres. If you feel so hell bent on it, then start buying up land and start building houses with your own money. You aren't going to get any help from people who are still wondering if they can put their own kids through college, or if they even have enough money to pay for their daughter's wedding.

[benburch]

111. Why do you hate gays?

I have nothing but contempt for that statement.

Bathhouses are not and never were the issue.

That was all Heterosexual Panic.

Here in Chicago, the bathhouses stayed and most of the people who go there now use rubbers.

Education was the key to fighting this disease, not repression, and the bathhouses were key to providing that education.

And bathhouses or no, people still connect and have anonymous sex, they just use the Internet now to do it.

I note in particular that nobody went to go shut down the Heterosexual Swinger's Clubs. ( http://www.nasca.com )

So, you not only are a xenophobe, but a homophobe too?

Is that the impression you want to leave?

Because you have.

[The Backlash Cometh]

135. Race card, Gay card. Was Randy Shilts a gay hater?

I believe that there is a difference between being good and being great. A person is good when they do the right thing, even though it doesn't really ask too much self-sacrifice. A great person does the right thing, even if it impinges on his own life. A good example of a good person, but not great, is an environmentalist who does the circuits claiming that over-population will be one of the greatest challenges of our times, then you look at the back cover of his book and you read that he has five children. That's the difference between good and great.

There aren't that many great people in this country. Randy Shilts was a great person.

[The Backlash Cometh]

88. Well, you do know that from my perspective, being called a racist

by you, is as extremist as being called a liberal by a conservative.

You are far, far left. And I can see you easily playing the racist card whenever it suits you.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

101. Been wanting a definition of this for awhile

This looks like as good a time as any to get one.

What is "far, far left?" You used it. Please define it. I might be "far, far left," too. After all, I want all kinds of commie things; things like healthcare for everyone, a living wage, decent housing and a rational transportation system. I want a technological research system that doesn't give a fig for "intelligent design" or any of the other stupid fundamentalist hooey that passes for 21st century "conservatism." I want professors who are free to challenge their students' thinking, without having to fear someone telling them their ideas are "far, far left." I want a nation motivated by its compassions and not its horrors. I want a country that sees war as a last alternative and not a first. Yep. Far, far left.

WTF is "far, far left?" That's a meme that's been ginned-up by the Repiglcians. Now I see people using it on DU? Oh, they're *good" those Repiglicans! What's next? "You're one of those Michael Moore Democrats?"

Oh, my daughters! Oh, my ducats!

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. I think open borders is far, far left.

I care for most of what you believe in, but I also believe in balancing the needs with long-term consequences. How does wanting issue "A" affect issue "B,C and D."

Because I'm a social pragmatist, I might tend to do some hand-wringing over long-term consequences. So I consider things that you apparently don't. And the fact that you can't see them makes you uncomfortable, so you resolve it by dismissing me by throwing down the race card.

[benburch]

106. That is why it has been a plank in the Libertarian Party Platform

Right?

[The Backlash Cometh]

127. Neo Liberalism and Libertarianism have quite a few cross-overs.

Open borders is one of them. I'm really surprised that you don't see those similarites, which they've reached quite through different paths. Where a Liberal may reach the idea of open borders based on his humanitarian beliefs, a Libertarian would reach it based on his free market beliefs, and of course, the belief that governments should not regulate much of anything.

That said, I think quite a few Libertarians are having second thoughts about supporting open borders, particularly in lieu of the fading number of jobs in the USA.

[JuniperLea]

146. Cram us all together... oh, that's humanitarian all right

Make everyone miserable... stretch our resources to the breaking point... an open border would not help the immigrants or the citizens.

We need to hold corporations accountable and find a way to get trade going to create jobs for people in their own countries. Many of these people don't want to be citizens. They are using their money to buy homes in their native lands so they can go back!

[The Backlash Cometh]

150. Good catch.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

118. Then you're "far, far left?" Is that what you're admitting?

Apart from that, you're elitism and snobbery are genuinely irritating.

You're right because I don't look far enough into the future? And you do? You can predict the future? Really?

I'm dismissive of you because you can't see the obvious: that the poor of the earth live in constant response to the whims of the wealthy. One need not have a crystal ball for future-gazing to see that, only an appreciation for reality as presented by history.

I can project centuries, millenia into the future. For the most part, it isn't good. Inside of two hundred years, your offspring are far more likely to be speaking Mandarin than any other language. But you're not worried about China, you're worried about Latino peasants. Inside of a hundred years, your offspring are likely to be more geographically isolated than you or your parents, but you're not worried about Peak Oil, you're worried about Latino peasants. Inside of fifty years, a substantial number of earth's population could be wiped out by hunger and disease in Africa, Asia and perhaps even here. But you're not worried about that. You're worried about Latino peasants. That's not pragmatism in my book. That's myopia.

[The Backlash Cometh]

128. I have different beliefs than yours. Does the fact that I have a

different perspective make you feel inferior? I can't possibly be all those nasty things, unless you think so little of yourself.

I think you're trying to solve the problems of the poor without having to leave the USA and that is impossible. Don't be lazy. Get out, go see what other countries are doing and why they are sending their poor over here. Because, this country will never raise taxes to solve the ills of the world as you see it. People much smarter than you and me will demand that we go to the source to put a stop to it.

[JuniperLea]

140. Not everyone against open borders is racist

Blanket statements automatically render themselves null.

There is a valid economic side to this that you are not addressing.

We do not have the resources for the people we have now and you are asking that we spread those resources even thinner. We would be created a horrible life for everyone concerned.

I think the best thing we can do for all concerned is to take a serious look at making US corporations obey the current laws and working out some trade deals with Mexico that would create jobs there.

But you cannot ignore the fact that we are talking about illegal immigrants here. They have broken the law.

The Pilgrims broke no laws; there were no laws to be broken.

The American Indians were immigrants too.

Lynnde English broke laws and was punished for breaking laws. She was obeying orders, but she broke the law in doing so. Ignoring "orders" is quite different from "breaking laws".

Just trying to get some of the non-arguments noted here...

[AllieB]

107. I never called you a racist

I have, however, seen racism rearing its ugly head on DU regarding this issue.

[The Backlash Cometh]

63. Either you believe in the Declaration of Independence, or you don't.

The United States of America is a sovereign nation. That means you have to accept what came before. If you don't, maybe you don't believe this country is a sovereign nation? And as a sovereign nation, there are proper grievance channels to address wrongs. I am all for the American Indians going through litigation to get as many of the billions that were stolen from them through the corruption and ineptitude of our government. But some of the bleeding heart wishy-washy comments made on this subject just doesn't seem to be productive to me, because no one outside of this forum, will take you seriously.

[JuniperLea]

153. I too think the argument is lunacy

And I belong to both groups... I am a Native American because I was born here. I'm an American Indian because my some of my ancestors were.

You are right. These are the kinds of arguments that those outside the fold on the left laugh at and use as fodder for arguments against us.

[sojourner]

102. dude...how many Americans do you know who grow up hoping to work in the

fields of American farmers?

[petgoat]

132. I've worked in the fields side by side with illegal aliens. And

been glad to have the work. The worst thing about farm labor is the chemicals.
If it paid halfway decent and if not for the chemicals it wouldn't be bad at all.

[sojourner]

183. i've done it too...(not just sayin' it). back-breaking. no respect. NONE.

and the chemicals are just the half of it. How about the "camps"? sanitation zilch. and the pay?

today's americans (youngsters) aren't about to put out the effort it takes to make a day's wage in the fields. (they don't want to do a full day's work even in a 'cushy' job).

and it may not be so bad when you're in your 20s. Different thing altogether when you're in your fifties.

[sojourner]

184. so, pay's not so good. working conditions not so good. your point

would be............ if only the pay was good and the conditions better THEN Americans would flock to the jobs in droves? I don't think so. Not trying to be harsh. But look at your own reasoning. What I said is still true. MOST Americans would not want to do the work as it exists. And none of the agribusinessmen want to improve pay or conditions at their own expense. So who will do the work?

[hexola]

19. "Migrant" workers...???

Gimmie a break - the Mexicans in my area are hear to stay...

They are not MIGRANT workers...

The orchards are all closed...the migrants are gone.

[benburch]

21. They Migrated here, didn't they?

And they have as much right to stay as you do, IMNSHO.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Liberty is at stake here. If you cannot choose what country you want to live in, you have NO Liberty.

[hexola]

24. Migrant Worker has traditionally meant....

Apple pickers, peach pickers...they move as the crops ripen...

i.e. - they MIGRATE from place to place as work becomes available...

Not sure what the heck you are getting at in your reply...but, whatever.

[savemefromdumbya]

20. Everyone is an immigrant

if people want to work in US then they need work permit and a chance to naturalize. Once here on a visa/permit they can adjust their status and get a green card.

[benburch]

23. But we will not grant them that.

You don't seriously think they pay every cent they have to a "coyote" and get packed into a load of lettuce to suffocate to death because they are just determined to get here illegally do you?

We don't let them come here legally.

We Americans see Mexicans as a hundred million brown cockroaches that want to get into our kitchens and who need to be exterminated when they do.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. We allow Mexicans in on a work permit.

My grandfather came in on a work permit. If they don't do it for Mexicans anymore, maybe it's because we have over 12million illegal Mexicans and they have exceeded the quota?

[benburch]

48. There is a quota for FREEDOM now?

What good Germans Americans we are!

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. Why don't we do an experiment?

Why don't we send an illegal alien a day to your house. You feed him, you find them work, you keep building on your premise to house them. Let me know at what point you begin to need social services. I'll even let you use as much social services as they will give you. Let me know at what point you realize, that you can't do it on your own, and your neighbors begin to complain.

And here I thought all the bleeding heart liberals had learned their lessons. We've gone no where in 25 years.

[benburch]

56. Actually, I've done that.

Had a whole family here at one time who were illegal and were fleeing repression at home.

My house was never kept so well, and the cooking here was never so good, because they refused to be freeloaders.

I recommend you try it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. Just love that free illegal alien work, don't ya?

I know all about live-ins who work for next to nothing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[benburch]

62. They wouldn't take money for it.

Though I offered.

They saw us all as Family.

I eventually got them jobs and and an apartment (and I paid the deposit and first and last month's rent.)

It is YOU who should be ashamed at your disgusting un-American xenophobia.

[The Backlash Cometh]

66. If you've found an answer to this problem, then why don't you continue

doing what you're doing? Begin organizations that might help them out as you have. An underground railroad sort of thing. You will have far more success in this manner, than by coming out in the open and demanding what certainly appears to be open borders.

[Kolesar]

83. Benburch's house of hyperbole

Americans want to exterminate Mexicans??? Give me a f-cking break.

Your whole thread is a sewer of unsupportable flamebait, including your unsupportable "Employing Class" thesis in the third paragraph of your too-long original post.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. If only that's what they were asking for. If only.

[Johonny]

75. I'm pretty sure there not

A vast majority of human being are born, live and die within a 30 miles radius. People in general don't move around much.

[Jim Warren]

26. A dream within a dream

REPEAL
Place a TARIFF
SUBSIDIZE
TAX
REPEAL
ENACT

[Minnesota Libra]

28. Yes, I'm upset about present illegal aliens and I'm also................

.....Native American (Apache) and German. So now what? :sarcasm:

[zapp]

53. Maybe some self-examination?

[The Backlash Cometh]

72. I'm Mexican-American and Central American.

I'm looking at this issue from every angle. Maybe if you lived abroad for a good part of your life, you can see other perspectives. Yes, they have taken a hit from NAFTA, but mostly, these people would love to retain their culture if they could. If you want to give them what they really want, then force their countries to address their economic problems.

[Little Star]

194. Your perspective is really the kindest thing I've

read on this thread. They need help addressing their own countries economic problems. We all lost with NAFTA as far as I can tell. We also need to help ourselves with our own economic problems. Can we walk and chew gum at the same time? I sure hope so.

[Minnesota Libra]

86. zapp, Some of my ancestors were Native American, some came here as........

....immigrants - LEGAL immigrants - that is my point the LEGAL LAWFUL way of doing it.

I have no problem with immigration at all - it's what made this country what it is today - but my problem is with illegal aliens - no matter what country they come from.

[aikoaiko]

30. Respectfully, isn't wiping out neighboring tribes part of the some

native american tradition, too.

Very few peoples can claim the higher road.

[benburch]

47. Not for my tribe.

Though we should have wiped out the Europeans. That was clearly a real error.

[Minnesota Libra]

74. Isn't that the truth!!! Of course to hear everyone tell it that whole....

......idea of wiping out other tribes applies to everyone else. I know my tribe (Apache) weren't above wiping out their enemies but to hear others tell it their tribe never did something that despicable. :sarcasm:

[coffeenap]

31. k & r

:hi:

[radio4progressives]

34. k&r Bravo Ben! Hear! Hear! eom

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[goclark]

181. Me too BEN

The Lone Ranger must have been a RepubliCON cause he and his buddies came in,took everything and made the Indian show him where to ride his horse.

Repeat story today.

Los Angeles was founded by the Spanish People.....
So guess who is really illegal!

http://www.laavenue.com/LAHistory.htm

[HereSince1628]

36. This "heritable blame" argument sent the former Yugoslavia

into ethnic bloodshed.

I realize it is a minor part of your post, and I personally support the concept of an excise tax on the sale of US factories to off-shore entities.

But I think it should be stated that it is utterly anti-thetical to progressiveism to promote heritable blame. I understand your use was for rhetorical effect, sort of. But half-truths that have a habit of being perpetuated and this one confounds human advancement.

This old testimont-style concept of the sins of the fathers being on their children is an archaic concept from a period of tribal life. Please, we need not perpetuate the notion of acceptability of ethnic grudges into the future.

We've got a signicicant stake in finding a progressive solution to this problem.
There are millions of people's welfare in the balance of this problem that was allowed, if not encouraged, to grow to it's present magnitude. Let's try to promote a context for argument that advances human dignity and physical well being.

[benburch]

43. That was just to show how ridiculous the argument is against migrants. nt

[GrpCaptMandrake]

94. Your point is well-taken

Any solution must be labor-based, and the OP is correct: it starts with eliminating Taft-Hartley and right-to-work laws.

While one may easily explain the influx of immigrants into the American southwest (Texas, NM, AZ, Cal) as a function of simple geography and population dynamics, the same may not be said for the American Deep South, where there is no sort of contiguous border.

As a kid growing up thirty years ago in Alabama, there were very few hispanics. What changed that? Why the relatively sudden influx into Mississippi, Alabama, the Carolinas, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc? What do all those states have in common?

Answer: they are *all* "right-to-work" states. Voters in those states bought into the hateful, anti-labor ideas propounded mostly by Repiglicans about how unions were not necessary, were communist, didn't love Jesus, etc. Bought into "Free Market Economics." And now their Free Market Economics have reached their logical end.

Here in Northwest Alabama, for instance, the "Mexicans" (i.e. Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans) work at chicken plants. Nasty, nasty, nasty, nasty work. Pitiful wages. Filthy conditions. Were unions involved, it would not be nearly as nasty.

So, in a nutshell, the "alien problem" exists in places where the economy was primed to create it. This is the end that the corporations and the bosses sought. What work couldn't be sent offshore for cheap labor would be reduced to cheap labor here by tilting the playing field away from the workers.

Thus, any solution must begin at the source. Wage reform and workplace rights. When an employer has no choice in the wages he can pay between a citizen, a resident alien and an "illegal," the tide of "illegals" will stem, because there will be no call for them. When workplaces are made safe and hygenic for workers, with benefits and full community involvement, residents and citizens will do those jobs.

It's not nearly as complicated as creepy little pasty-faced thugs like Lou Dobbs would have you believe. The only thing necessary is for the money to sacrifice a little in the name of this once-great nation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. AMEN!!

This is not about illegal employees, it's about employers who break the law.

[EFerrari]

41. Kick

[YankeyMCC]

49. Damn busted!

I've been reading some histories of Native People here in N. America during US colonial and early times and I've been thinking exactly the same thing.

K&R

[petgoat]

55. Illegals killed the UFW. They didn't care about a living wage

or education for the kids. All they cared about was a fast buck.

They are highly motivated to accept unsafe working conditions, low pay,
and lack of overtime pay.

I've got nothing against anyone personally, but millions of union-busting
scabs are not helping us, only the employers.

[benburch]

60. Bullshit Rightwing Spin

You drank the Kool-Aide.

United Farm Workers are ALIVE and WELL and support Immigrant's Rights.

My friend Jay Marvin had them on his show last month JUST to refute that lie.

You have been

[petgoat]

80. That they exist doesn't make them alive politically. nt

[benburch]

91. Do you get dizzy when you spin like that? nt

[petgoat]

97. How many UFW members are there? How many non-union

farmworkers? The UFW is dead. And the illegal scabs did it. They're continuing to
do it every day.

The UFW supports the immigrants' rights issue because they hope that more secure-feeling
people will agitate for workers' rights, and because they have to deal with the fact of
the millions of illegals politically, so aiming to recruit them rather than alienate them
is the only course possible.

It doesn't change the basic fact that the presence of millions of desperate and vulnerable
people is acting to reverse the gains that unions fought 70 years to win.

[benburch]

81. UFW web site here...

http://www.ufw.org/

"Please join the United Farm Workers in supporting reasonable immigration reform and opposing harmful amendments such as the Chambliss amendments.

I ask you to please honor the people who feed America by supporting the Senate Judiciary Committee's bipartisan compromise bill. A harsh, anti-immigrant enforcement-only bill will not fix our broken immigration system. We need a real solution that offers the chance for hardworking undocumented immigrants--performing work crucial for the U.S. economy--to earn the right to stay in this country.

Please support the Senate Judiciary Committee's bipartisan compromise bill--which includes the AgJobs amendment, oppose the Chambliss amendments, and oppose any amendments not supported by AgJobs primary sponsors (Senators Craig, Kennedy and Feinstein)."

[Imagevision]

69. Companies should be finrd $30,000 per illegal alien knowingly employed

[Johonny]

71. Funny enough

I have it on good authority the buffalo want the Native Americans to go back to Asia.

[benburch]

78. Exactly my point.

Shows how ridiculous the arguments against migrants are.

[petgoat]

82. The argument that they're union busters is not ridiculous. nt

[benburch]

92. Yes it is.

Like almost everything you say.

[petgoat]

99. Oh they're NOT union busters? Got evidence for that? nt

[countryjake]

138. UFW Contract with Global Horizons - April 11, 2006 Seattle, Wash

http://www.ufw.org/_page.php?menu=organizing&inc=keycampaign/globalhorizons/GH_ASRstatement.htm

~snip~

Today’s announcement of the first national contract protecting agricultural guest workers offers the only genuine solution to the dilemma of worker abuse and lax enforcement of legal protections: unionization.

This agreement between Global Horizons and the United Farm Workers of America represents an historic breakthrough for farm workers that would not have happened without Washington Gov. Christine Gregoire and her administration aggressively ensured farm worker rights were protected and state laws enforced over the past two years. We are deeply grateful to the governor. As a result, this contract between the UFW and Global Horizons is a model of hope in making the guest worker program fair and just.

As we do with all our agreements covering domestic farm workers, for the first time imported agricultural guest workers will be protected by a national union contract guaranteeing compliance with all relevant state and federal laws—in this case through a three-step grievance procedure ending in binding mediation.

For the first time, a national union contract will protect agricultural guest workers from retaliation for complaining about conditions or treatment.

For the first time, a union contract will require that agricultural guest workers receive a 2 percent pay increase above the Adverse Effect Wage Rate mandated under federal law, which is always higher than the state or federal minimum wage. Currently, the wage rate for agricultural guest workers in Washington state is $9.01 an hour.

For the first time a union contract will require an employer to pay the costs of medical care agricultural guest workers need while in this country.

For the first time in many states where paid work break rules don’t cover any farm workers, a union contract will guarantee work breaks for agricultural guest workers.

For the first time a national union contract will protect agricultural guest workers through seniority: They will be hired or laid off according to how long they have worked for the company.

For the first time, a nationwide union contract will protect agricultural guest workers from being fired without just cause, again through the grievance and binding mediation process.

For the first time, a union contract will provide agricultural guest workers with paid bereavement leave when a family member dies, paid round-trip transportation to their country of origin and further leave time if necessary.

Currently, Global Horizons recruits workers mostly from Thailand and Vietnam. Under the union contract, the UFW will work with Global Horizons to also recruit workers from Mexico.

The union contract also covers all domestic workers who decide to work for Global Horizons, thus ensuring no local domestic workers will be displaced.

Still think that the UFW is ineffective?

[petgoat]

142. UFW

According to the press release: "Currently, Global Horizons recruits workers mostly from
Thailand and Vietnam. Under the union contract, the UFW will work with Global Horizons to
also recruit workers from Mexico."

I am not aware that Thailand and Vietnam are major sources for US farm labor business.
Therefore I must assume that Global Horizons is a negligible player in the farm labor
business.

[countryjake]

185. You didn't know agri-business uses the guest-worker visas to break unions?

You didn't know that the way the current immigration system is set up, independent labor "contractors" go out and recruit and hire workers to come here on these agricultural visas, after claiming "labor shortages", bringing in people who sign agreements that they will "obey", even to the point of setting up pay-schedules in the countries from which these workers come, so that they must go home in order to collect??

Pay attention much?

Why do you think so many of those demonstrators were carrying signs that said NO to the guest worker program that our prez originally was backing? Any guest-visa that does NOT give those workers protection from corrupt employers and a voice on their jobs will continue to allow the huge corporations and agri-businesses to rip off ALL workers in this country...citizens, undocumented, migrants, and farmers, alike.

And that is the way it is currently set up, with loopholes that make it "legal" for any employer to see his workers uniting and organizing under a union, so he then will claim "shortage", enlist a company such as Global to do his dirty work and bring in a completely new crew and voila, his problem is solved, the wages and working conditions remain under his control, and he is able to offer his produce at cut-rates, under-cutting prices from the fair farmers who don't engage in such shady practices! Farms are going under all over the nation, surely you've noticed that. It's the agri-businesses who are getting most of the "subsidies" nowadays...our government rewards them for keeping out any organizing.

If all of the folks, who complain so loudly about "those people" stealing their jobs, would simply spend a few hours examining the real problem, they might find that one of the reasons so many migrants have moved into the construction business and factory work and other trades is because they are being shoved out of farming...once they get ahead and become successful in their own right, (and I mean as skilled farmers and farmworkers, not some god-awful, poverty-stricken, vision of lettuce-pickers...people with a respectful business, earning a living from the land and providing decent work for other migrants) well then along comes the huge farming corporations, shoving them out in the same exact way they were pushed out of their home country. And buying out their land, to set up even bigger agri-farms.

Those labor contractors, like Global, are one of the main problems that prevented the laws that came with the amnesty of 1986 from being effective and the UFW has been fighting those guest-worker visas for a long time, to force our government to not use them to break union-drives. Until those visas come guaranteed with certain rights, as workers in this country, the right-wing bastards will continue to profit and spread their agri-businesses, completely changing the face of farming in this country.

You are assuming wrong, if you think this isn't a method used by our government to pit worker against worker. It's common practice in this state and South Asians have been brought into many other agricultural states, also. Until the UFW is successful at getting contracts signed with all of the hiring companies that implement those agricultural guest-worker visas, the status of farmworkers will never improve. And legislating a guarantee of certain rights would be even better, but, obviously, the Republicans are fighting that, tooth and nail.

In the Orchards, Questions about Immigration Reform
by Tony Barboza - High Country News - September 19, 2005
Washington state offers a cautionary tale for would-be reformers in Washington, D.C.

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=15783

[Kolesar]

85. So what would such a thing as "arguments against migrants" be?

A metaphysical, philosophical discussion of whether "migrants" exist?
How many angels can be on the head of a pin?

[benburch]

93. Whatever you are smoking...

I don't want any. Man, a trip like that and I'd probably hang myself.

[Kolesar]

98. your words

[pat_k]

96. Enacting and Enforcing Laws that Reflect Our Values

http://january6th.org/borders.html

[Cleita]

114. Especially, get rid of the Taft-Hartley act and get labor back

as a force to be contended with.

[countryjake]

139. And dumping all of those "Right to Work" anti-union laws

that so many scab states have adopted will go far in giving labor back its former power.

[Mythsaje]

160. Like "employment at will" is SO much better for the average worker...n/t

[benburch]

186. I don't think you understand what a Right To Work law really is.

Please go look it up. Has nothing to do with at will employment.

[Mythsaje]

203. Well, granted it's been over ten years

since my business classes in college, but I remember 'right to work' and 'employment at will' as being considered polar opposites.

Then again, upon further reading...I find it ironic that someone who espouses liberty so loudly would so vehemently believe in forcing people to join a union just to work at at a specific location or for a specific employer.

Nothing against unions, so much, but ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

I don't like being forced to do anything. What you're espousing here is deliberately and consciously taking away the choice of the worker to join or not join, and I don't like the sound of that at all.

If you ask me, the right to work laws should give the unions more motivation to work for the benefit of the workers, and not for the benefit of the unions themselves. If THIS was the case, the only ones who wouldn't join voluntarily would be the rabid RWers. Few people wouldn't want to participate if the benefits were clear.

In some cases, unions just add another level of bureaucracy between the workers and management, another set of 'bosses' to appease and feed. Not with labor, but with money. Hard-earned money. It should be up to the individual whether or not to join. Anything else stinks of coersion.

[girl gone mad]

117. I have "Native American bloodlines".

I know that some of my ancestors fought against invading Europeans. The Natives lost the battle.

I agree that employers are the problem, but not every illegal immigrant comes here for legitimate work. I used to live in a neighborhood heavily populated by illegal immigrants. Many of them were involved with the Mexican Mafia, running drugs and guns. Now, scores of illegal immigrants cross the border as part of shoplifting rings.

[Mythsaje]

119. And what about the LEGAL immigrants who are already here?

The ones who jumped through every hoop set before them and are still doing so? The Philippino I work with who married a Canadian citizen and now has to go visit his wife in Canada when he can because she can't legally immigrate because of the red tape? Should she just come over the border to "visit" and find some under-the-table job and try to scrape by?

Or the Polish immigrant who has to choose between giving up her Polish citizenship and becoming a REAL American?

Coming in the back door as opposed to doing things the right way doesn't give you an automatic pass. Nor should it. Many countries, even some more progressive than ours, have stringent immigration requirements. They are far less tolerant of illegals than we are.

I don't think this is a matter of racism. It's about respect for our country and at least SOME of our rules.

[NervousRex]

121. They don't count...

because they would throw a monkey wrench into the OP's over-simplified, black-and-white worldview.

[Mythsaje]

123. I've thrown that wrench at every one of these threads...

And so far I haven't received a single telling argument. One poster said "I can't look the downtrodden in the eyes and talk about 'fairness.'" Or something to that effect. That was the CLOSEST thing to a real response I've gotten about it.

[petgoat]

134. I've looked into the eyes of citizens who were down and out

and needed the work. Many of them are capable, intelligent, and articulate
(most of the time). When they told me they couldn't get work because the
illegals were taking it all I thought they were rationalizing away their
laziness.

Then I drove past the lumberyard at 6:30 and saw 600 men there looking for
day labor.

[Mythsaje]

136. Apparently there's a Home Depot or something

in Seattle where they hang out for the same purpose. I didn't even know about this sort of thing until someone pointed it out to me.

[JuniperLea]

151. It's SOP in So Cal

It's so hard. Sometimes I see them standing around with sullen eyes, looking hungry in more ways than one. I sometimes think I could hire a few good men to do some painting in my home, or some repair work... feed them, give them a lot more than the below-minimum wage they are expecting. Very hard. This is one situation where you can't save the world one person at a time.

I feel the emotion. I feel the tug of humanitarianism. This is one situation where we really need to lead with our heads and not our hearts.

It's time to teach men to fish instead of giving them fish, if you get my drift.

[Mythsaje]

154. I get it...

They shouldn't even be in this situation.

Edited because I was distracted...

[JuniperLea]

149. Sounds like a Babs beautiful mind statement to me... n/t

[JuniperLea]

148. Very well said!

Racism is just another card to throw on the table when people run out of legitimate arguments, imho.

I'm part American Indian and also a Mayflower decendant... I'm sick of the rhetoric on this issue. Too many cannot get past the emotion to see logic.

Thanks for stating this so clearly and logically.

[benburch]

155. America isn't about rules. It is about LIBERTY.

I very much respect ALL immigrants to this country, no matter how they got here. And I think that nobody who is not a violent criminal should be denied entry papers or work papers or any of these bureaucratic papers. (Insert sound here of Gestapo officer saying "Are your papers in order?")

I'm very sorry that people from Poland have had to jump through so many hoops to come here. I know several from Latvia who were put through hell for five years before they were allowed to come here and join their families. They shouldn't have had to sit on waiting lists to come here. That was wrong. And we need to change it.

America ought to be the Golden Door through which ALL the downtrodden may pass.

And when all persons here are legal, nobody will be paid a sub-legal wage.

Then we work on re-Unionizing labor in this country, on raising the minimum wage to approach a living wage more closely, on repealing restrictive union organizing laws, and forbidding states from passing right-to-work laws.

Nobody in America ought to work for a substandard wage.

Nobody in America ought to so fear deportation that they will work in unsafe conditions and not report them.

Nobody in America ought to feel like an outlaw just for living and working here.

That is the standard I am setting here.

When we are all legal, and when we have labor solidarity, the "employing class" can no longer turn us against each other like this!

I mean, just look at this thread! They have done a wonderful job of making the issues in American Labor issues of one laboring group versus another laboring group, but the real evil is in the boardroom and the management suite. The real issue is CEOs who make 100 million a year while claiming the company is too poor to pay a living wage to its employees. And you are all being WORKED by the managers. You are all having your chains jerked and you don't seem to understand by whom!

[JuniperLea]

157. Glad to see you are willing to set up a tent city in your backyard

And you are willing to lower the standard of living for all parties concerned...

And since you believe this is a country without rules, you won't mind being forced to give up your cushy life. Not just a little bit of it... all of it. Life as you know it would cease to be and would be unrecognizable. We would ALL end up worse off than the current illegal immigrants are right now.

I think your flower and rainbows ideals in this matter are heartwarming and sincere. I also think they are against all logic, economic reason and would lead to more harm than good for citizens and immigrants alike. It is emotional situations like this that separate the heads from the hearts. My heart breaks for these people, but my head says what you are proposing is chaos. Pure chaos.

[benburch]

161. LEGALIZED Immigration will only strengthen us.

And will only raise the standard of living for the worker, and LOWER it for the Employer, and all will be right with the country again.

Tent Cities are what you get when you have Republican Values. Hoovervilles were ended by FDR's New Deal.

And I studied economics at The University of Chicago. Where did you study it?

[JuniperLea]

169. On the job for more years than I care to admit

At two major financial institutions working in bankruptcy, high yield investments, structured annuities, retirement planning, M & A ... NASD licensed stock broker... now in PR doing mostly mergers and acquisitions... I've gone swimming with the sharks, lived in the belly of the beast and know it well.

There is only so much to go around under current circumstances and you won't change current circumstances to the extent that you can support what you are talking about. Not in this decade, or the next. If you think corporate upper crusties are going to willingly let go of their six to ten digit incomes and their stock options and golden parachutes, you are dreaming.

The recent protest did nothing except lighten the next pay check for a mass quantity of Latinos, which in turn will hurt the businesses where they trade. They were used as a tool to divide and conquer and we all got sucked into that mess.

We need to divorce ourselves from the emotional humanitarian thoughts long enough to work on the real issue... enforcing the current laws and keeping the US Gov from making any changes to the laws. That's what they want to do! And guess who it is going to benefit! Fat cat corporations! This is just another BushCo kick back and we've fallen right into their trap!

All this talk of American Indians and European immigration is just palaver. Meaningless palaver. Apples and oranges.

Make corporate America responsible... hold them accountable for the laws they are breaking... Use NAFTA as it was intended... we have everything in place, it just needs to be used properly.

We are doomed without rules and laws... and when our rules and laws are not being adhered to, they may as well not exist... and we are doomed.

[Sparkman]

158. DUers are going to have to do their home work, AND admit guilt in areas

that their parents and peers REFUSE to consider.
You are going on the "ignore" catagory of dozens of DUer's for your frankness.
Ignorance and arrogance were the bane to every imperial power to date, and the only hope for liberty and justice for all, is work OUTSIDE the established political powers that be. The smart and survivour party will FOLLOW the people, not try in vane to lead them down the short road to dominance over all of us. imo

[benburch]

162. Let them ignore me then.

I don't do this for their approval.

And I have lost more than one "friend" for my bluntness.

[Mythsaje]

179. I think ignoring people

just because I disagree with them is stupid and chickenshit.

[JuniperLea]

196. AMEN!

Sign not only of a closed mind, but willful ignorance, a refusal to learn and an inability to attempt seeing from another's perspective... refusal to walk in another's moccasins as it were.

[Mythsaje]

159. It IS about the Corporations and cheap labor...

But the fact remains that you can't just throw the doors wide open. No one ELSE does that. Why in the hell should we?

And as much as we'd like to do so, we can't ignore the rules entirely. Fight to make legal immigration easier, fine. But we can't just say it doesn't matter if the rules aren't followed at all, because it DOES matter.

[benburch]

164. Because we are BETTER than everybody else.

That is why we need to open the doors.

We MUST be an example of FREEDOM and LIBERTY to the whole damned planet.

[Mythsaje]

167. No we're not...

We'd like to THINK so, but we're better in some ways, worse in others. We need to improve our own labor standards, then work to help the other countries do the same. The one thing we cannot do is allow this debate to destroy what little unity we have left. And it is.

[benburch]

172. You can aim that low if you like.

But I insist that we MUST BE better than that.

Not only should America be an example to the world, but open immigration will ensure an America that is on the Left forever.

The GOP Crime Syndicate knows this.

Why do you think their agents here on DU are trying to divide us?

[Mythsaje]

178. I happen to believe some people

are being tremendously unfair about this whole issue. The arguments against open borders are valid ones and it's rather disingenuous to suggest that "open the doors and hope for the best" is a reasonable plan and anyone who says otherwise is automatically racist.

[benburch]

187. You see, Liberty has no plan.

And doesn't need one.

Planned Liberty is like Conditional Freedom.

And I don't say "Hope For The Best"!

I say "MAKE IT THE BEST."

And I know we can.

[Mythsaje]

202. If it was just US,

you know, people with brains and sensitivity, I'd agree with you.

But you know as well as I do, that's not what we're dealing with.

[JuniperLea]

198. Not just here... the whole issue was the intended purpose

We can't expect to save the world until we save ourselves first. If we weaken ourselves, all will be lost.

If we open our borders, do you think Mexicans and South Americans will be the only people at our door? What about the rest of the world? Aren't there millions of other people in the world desperately trying to escape their miserable fate if they remain where they are? Floodgate would be an understatement.

We need to strengthen our health care and education systems before we over-burden them to the breaking point... and the last straw is already hovering.

[Mythsaje]

177. Self delete--wrong place

[JuniperLea]

197. And that was the intended purpose!

"We" fell for it. Played like a fiddle.

[JuniperLea]

124. Ok, if you want to take it that far

Maybe I should lead my people back over the land bridge to Asia...

[Ksec]

165. Well youre half right

It takes two to tango Kemosabe. The company didnt force anyone to walk in there and apply for those jobs. You seem to think responsibilty is only for one side.

[benburch]

171. A starving man has no choices.

An employer is by definition not a starving man.

QED

[stepnw1f]

168. Boy Ben, Did You Scare Out the Roaches

I love it!

[benburch]

170. I did, didn't I?

Some were no surprise to me, as I already knew them for what they are.

A couple really shocked me as I thought better of them.

Well, you live and learn. (Or you don't live long.)

[JuniperLea]

201. Yeah, you couldn't possibly be wrong about any of this... n/t

[KoKo]

175. It's an interesting thought. WHY SHOULD WE BE HERE?

And...shouldn't we ask for "forgiveness" for what we've done. :shrug:

[benburch]

176. My friend... YES.

And WORKING for Atonement by making opportunity for others.

[JuniperLea]

199. I did nothing n/t

[kineneb]

180. agree!

"Germans and Irish need not apply"
Seems Americans don't know much about history (am I surprised-no). A thought experiment is to replace the word "Mexican/Hispanic" with the words "Jew/German/Irish/Polish" to see the underlying racism and small-minded fear. My family had to quit speaking German when WWI began; the same small minds were afraid they were in league with the "Hun" (never got that, they were Germans, not Huns).

Until Mexico and So. American countries have stable economies,
until American employers are really punished for hiring undocumented workers,
until the corporations are no longer allowed to engage in a "race to the bottom,

then, and only then, will the US be able to slow the flow of undocumented workers coming over the boarder.

[benburch]

182. They don't really TEACH history any more.

I had to go out of my way to learn it, in spite of going to University of Chicago.

[kineneb]

193. I learned it from my family

I was raised by my grandparents, and they talked about their life and what they knew from their parents and relatives. Also, I was encouraged to read and study history at home. The stuff that was taught at school was soooo boring. Families really need to share more about their experiences, rather than watching the tube.

Had I not studied music history, I might have gone into archeology; however, I figured my allergies would get me if I spent my life nose-down in the dust.

edited to add:

Oh, and about us European types here, I will happily accept a ticket back to Germany. I probably am more employable there than here. And Hubby could get better medical care.

[Mythsaje]

204. This is true...

but, on the other hand, roughly 50 to 70 percent of accepted "history" is probably bullshit anyway. Or at least presented in such a shallow manner that the deeper truths are hidden rather than revealed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

189. I strongly disagree with some of those.

Specifically, the ones about placing tariffs on imports and subsidising American goods.

Workers in other countries find it hard enough to compete with over-subsidised and better funded American production as it is. You should me reducing your subsidies and tariffs, not increasing them.

I appreciate your desire to protect the American poor at the cost of all others, but I don't think it's justifiable, particularly not because if you do it then so will others and everybody will end off worse up than before.

[benburch]

205. So...

You'd rather have American labor drop to the rates that pertain elsewhere?

Because that is what you are advocating.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

206. No, of course it isn't.

What I'm advocating would quite possibly result in American wages being lower *compared with what they would be if your policy was followed*, but there are lots of other things which can and should be done to raise them, and, crucially, *it would result in better wages in other places rising*.

American tarrifs and subsidies do more harm to the very poor than they do good to the poor.

I regard American (and European) wages falling and first-world farmers finding it still harder to make a living as an acceptable price to pay for wages and profits in the third world rising, especially because the gain to the latter from removing tarrifs and subsidies would probably be more than the loss to the former.

[benburch]

208. Sorry, I don't.

We are not helping them one iota by beggaring ourselves here. In fact, we are destroying them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

209. That's simply not true.

America is not beggaring itself, it's beggaring other people by combining a system of tarrifs and subsidies, several of them I believe illegal (although I may be out of date on that one) with demands that other countries remove such things.

This (well, this and similar behaviour from Europe etc) is a major contributary factor to the unprofitability of e.g. farming in Africa, steelmaking in IIRC (which I may well not do) South America - they have to compete with subsidised and untarriffed, and hence cheaper, products from the first world, and so they can't charge as much.

Even at present your tarrifs and subsidies are disgracefully high; you should be making them lower, not higher.

[goodhue]

200. you bet

:thumbsup:

[B Calm]

207. The democratic party needs to start a campaign to drop NAFTA

and write a new free trade agreement that favors workers rights over corporations.

[KitchenWitch]

210. BRAVO!

:applause: