"Duke Lacrosse Defendants Acquitted By FOX News"

[bloom]

Duke Lacrosse Defendants Acquitted By FOX News
Reported by Ellen - May 03, 2006

Once again, FOX News, the network that president and CEO Roger Ailes claims “likes America,” was doing its best last night to undermine one of the bedrocks of our country – the legal system. Without benefit of trial, judge or jury, FOX News has supplanted the courtroom for its television studio and rendered its own prime time verdict on the Duke rape defendants: Not guilty.
As usual, Sean Hannity and FOX News reporter Megyn Kendall seemed to be jockeying for Best Acquittal Argument Disguised As News.

Hannity said that the time-stamped photos of Seligman at an ATM machine “seem to confirm Seligman’s alibi.” Later, he demanded that testimony from her ex-husband that she may have lied about accusations against her husband (despite the fact that was not proven) "should be admissible." Hannity has not only adjudged the Duke defendants not guilty, he has decided that the accuser is the guilty party.

Kendall, already in the doghouse for her biased reporting, seemed to think she satified FOX News’ “fairness” requirement by acknowledging that the defense team was “playing politics” and “trying to poison the jury pool.” From there on, she was squarely in their corner...

During this segment, I kept thinking, “Why bother with a trial?” and I was already planning my headline along that line when I was startled to hear Colmes say, “I have a great idea... Let’s not have a trial. Let’s do it right here on Hannity & Colmes.” I think that’s exactly what has happened.

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/05/03/duke_lacrosse_defendants_acquitted_by_fox_news.php

[LostinVA]

1. Some posters on here would be a great sidekick

for Hannity's discussions about the case.

Fire away, those of whom I speak. I have most of you on Ignore now...

[bloom]

3. I don't watch FOX

but I was looking at Newhounds and saw this up today. It seems to fit so perfectly with some of the discussions going on.


There is the concept of innocent until proven guilty and there is also, unfortunately the reality - sometimes - of acquittal before there is even a trial.

(And not necessarily on the basis of evidence, either).



(I've been getting pretty liberal with my ignore feature, also).

[ShortnFiery]

5. Why are you so mean spirited? We merely disagree ...

Please reconsider that some of us really have had DIFFERENT life experiences, ergo, different opinions and perspectives?

[madrchsod]

31. i agree with you on this

..jesus christ i got sucked into this bull shit again

[LostinVA]

37. Me too! I promised my SO I would stop reading and posting

on the Duke rape threads!

[redqueen]

39. I avoided it for a long time.

No more...

[LostinVA]

45. I've been in it since the first day... my Ignore list is huge now

[redqueen]

50. I feel for you...

:hug:

[LostinVA]

54. Thanks! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

146. You seemingly FEEL nothing :P

[redqueen]

150. You responded to my post to LostinVA...

just WHO IS IT who is wanting to make this a flamefest, again?

[LostinVA]

167. Now you're seeing why I have

this person on Ignore... it quits being somewhat amusing pretty quick...

[rinsd]

2. Aquitted by Fox News, Convicted by DU

News at 11....

[redqueen]

4. Can't believe you just compared DU to FAUX news...

:puke:

[ShortnFiery]

6. Oh gosh, I think we're just trying, albeit hopelessly, to keep it light.

:hi:

[redqueen]

7. Have fun with making light of an alleged rape. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

16. You folks are vicious in your name calling and labeling

I think the PROBLEM is on your side here. I believe that SOME of us may just "playing a role" in their head from past life experiences.

Many of us who believe that responsibility rests on both sexes for consensual sex are really getting sick of being labeled and brow beaten.

You really do have to LIGHTEN UP - not drag in all the vicious accusations at others who happen to not agree with your "whenever a woman SAYS that it's rape, it's rape" MENTALITY. It's not widely held by most of society and you won't force people here to bend to your proclamations.

[redqueen]

20. "You folks"? Who are you talking about?

When did I name call? Whom did I label? :rofl:

Melodramatic much?

And sorry... I can't lighten up about alleged rape. No matter if it happened or not, it's a serious issue. Serious if she was rape... serious if she's falsely accused someone.

Go ahead, have a blast! Run and skip and jump through the flowers! I'm not stopping you!

Here, I'll even shout a bit if it'll make you feel better.

I WILL NOT CONFORM TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS! GET OVER IT!

[bloom]

22. I think if anyone is "playing a role"

it's the rape apologists.


And I don't know where you get your idea that most of society sides with the rapists. And even if it were true - it would be just as stupid.\

Maybe you just listen to sports commentators :shrug:

[redqueen]

24. Sports commentators... hmmmm...

I can think of some others who'd agree with them... that we should all just "lighten up" about this whole issue.

Don't wanna say who, though.

[ShortnFiery]

42. I regret that many of you ...

"Any time any woman says, it's rape, it's rape" people are nurturing a great amount of HATE not all that unlike one each, Nancy Grace.

It is unhealthy for your wellbeing. Yes, I claim the above out of genuine concern.
Let go of your anger because no matter how many times you SCREAM your beliefs it will not make them either law or legal in today's society.

If you keep nurturing all this vitriol, it will eat you up and spit you out into a very bitter person who's less than fun to hang out with.

Take the above any way you wish.

May your higher power give you peace and you will be in my prayers tonight.

Peace be with you. OUT here! :hi:

[redqueen]

49. Nice strawman!

Not bothering with the rest... the first sentence proved you're either deliberately mischaracterizing people's positions, or too upset to think clearly.

[ShortnFiery]

57. You're the one who's all "hot and bothered"

Oh damn, I know now I'm gonna hate myself because you have NO DAMN SENSE OF HUMOR when it relates to anything regarding this pseudo-crusade of yours.

Still, whatever turns ya on! :puke:

[redqueen]

59. I'm able to remember who said what...

calmer than you are, dude.

:hi:

[ShortnFiery]

65. Thank you for PROVING my case ...

You pay such little attention to detail in your fervor, you failed to note that I'm a woman, a wife of 25 years, and a mother of a young daughter.

So that's "Ms. Dudette" to you. ;)

Again, thanks for making my case for me, you really do need to "lighten up."

Really! :-)

[redqueen]

69. ROFL!

That's a common saying... google it. :rofl:

Sorry to disappoint you... but I did not assume you were a man. :)

[ShortnFiery]

71. Sure - now that is a real sign of desperation.

I honestly feel sorry for you and yours.

Really, lighten up! :hi:

[redqueen]

74. Oh, please... don't feel sorry for me!

It's easy!

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-29,GGLG:en&q=calmer+than+you+are%2C+dude

:rofl:

Sorry... it's not un-hip to be un-hip... don't feel attacked by me!

Actually... saying "i feel sorry for you and yours" is a very ugly, confrontational, and needlessly inflammatory statement.

SO not surprised you used it. :) True to form!

[ShortnFiery]

76. I do, I really do like you so much THAT you may have the last post!

:hug:

[redqueen]

82. It's not about the last word,

it's about ensuring that you realize that you were so mistaken. You know what they say about assuming!

Glad I could straighten that out.

Peace!

[hiaasenrocks]

62. That first sentence is exactly the type of

argument that I was responding to last weekend.

It's absurd. It shows that the person making that argument is using emotion in lieu of logic. And, of course, that's when you know it's useless to discuss anything with that person.

Like one in this very thread who put me on ignore because I don't subscribe to their emotional approach to this case.

It's just not worth it...

[ShortnFiery]

68. No more absurd than your Crusade. :-)

[hiaasenrocks]

70. I think you may have misread my post.

Or I did a poor job of stating my position.

I was referring to the crowd who believes (like you said) "Any time any woman says, it's rape, it's rape."

That's who I was arguing against in previous posts, and that's the group I was referring to in my post above.

They base their argument on emotion. There's no sense in discussing anything with people who prefer that method over using logic and facts.

[redqueen]

83. Didn't her kneejerk reaction prove

that it's also people on YOUR side, just as much as any other, that are reacting out of emotion?

:rofl:

This is fucking PRICELESS!

:rofl:

[hiaasenrocks]

89. What emotion would that be?

"My side" is the side that says we don't know the facts of the case yet, and so the accused enjoy the benefit of the doubt.

I am arguing against the side that would prefer to accept the accuser's version of the story because "she said it happened."

Not sure where you got lost here.

[ShortnFiery]

98. delete

[hiaasenrocks]

102. LOL. Who are you talking to?

You either mistakenly responded to me, or you're arguing both sides of this debate.

Odd.

If you figure it out, let me know.

[ShortnFiery]

108. Sorry, I figured it out.

This is so useless. No, I misread. redqueen is quite gifted at character assassination. Again, I regret that I did "see red" and misread your post.

:blush: Yeah, I admit my mistakes because I'm such a damn pussy! You may quote me on that my new bud - redqueen. :P

[Name removed]

111. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

110. Sorry... when a person defends a characterization like "stripper",

that conveys that they are not actually unbiased at all.

Yes, it is her profession... does it have anything to do with her allegation? Um, no.

And regarding the emotional reaction... you AGREED with someone, and they were so worked up that they responded to you as if you were someone else... that, my friend, is using emotion, and not logic. And it is not solely a characteristic of those on the "if she claimed she was raped she was raped" crowd. We'll see if you stop using that as a way to portray those you disagree with in a negative light in the future.

:hi:

Thanks for playing!

[ShortnFiery]

112. You need help. Really! n/t

[redqueen]

117. You really cannot help being nasty, can you?

It seemed in an earlier post you were portraying yourself as a Christian.

Interesting.

[ShortnFiery]

120. I'm sorry, you are the character assassin. Read the thread genius?

Yes, I'm a Christian alright, but did you not note above? = I fully own up to being less than perfect.

But you? What are YOU? How are you behaving in this thread?

You attack the person, not the argument.

You are behaving like a bully and referring to all of us that are WRONG as "guys".

[redqueen]

123. I'm a bully?

WHERE?

And you still won't admit I didn't assume you were a guy.

Stuck record.

[ShortnFiery]

126. "You are behaving like a bully"

But if you want to confess that is fine by me and KNOWN to all who reads this thread.

You get off at this sick sick behavior.

You trash anyone who doesn't play into your arguments.

Again, read the thread again genius?

[redqueen]

132. How so?

Confess what?

What "sick behavior"?

Whom did I trash?

:rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

130. A profession of being a stripper WILL AFFECT how society views her

Sorry if THE TRUTH hurts.

[redqueen]

134. So you admit that characterizing her in that way...

is intended to cause the reader to come to a conclusion not based on actual evidence.

Thank you!

[ShortnFiery]

142. I admit to how Society views her ... I own up to reality of social norms.

[redqueen]

149. The characterization was not made in a bubble.

The characterization was used in a thread about how she MUST be a liar, and has falsely accused the alleged rapists.

So your admission, in this context, means more than just admitting what evils society harbors in terms of its unfair treatment of women.

[Marie26]

156. That was a rather emotional reaction,

wouldn't you say?

[Marie26]

163. See, that I don't buy

My least favorite argument is this contention that everyone who believes the dancer was raped is reacting out of an emotional, hysterical, approach - and anyone who's defending the players is acting totally cooly, logically, & focusing on the facts. That just isn't true. Reading over these threads, some who believe the players are innocent will resort to wild speculation about the woman, hysterical posts about how men are being persecuted, & made up facts. This is an emotional issue & people will have emotional reactions (and over-reactions) on any side.

[NaturalHigh]

55. Believing that the accuser in this case is lying...

is not being a "rape apologist."

[bloom]

79. I think it is

and esp. people who are so wrapped up in apologizing/excusing/defending the rapists (posting in every thread that comes up - to defend the accused) yet they can't be bothered to inform themselves of the case against the rapists and believe whatever story the defense puts out.

They are rape apologists and rape defenders.

And if that includes you - it includes you.

[NaturalHigh]

88. You seriously believe...

that if I do not believe the accuser in this case I am a rape apologist? Wow! I'm so sorry - I must be a misogynist defender of the patriarchy as well. :sarcasm:

[bloom]

100. You might be.

I have no reason to think that you aren't.

About the only time I see you posting - you are defending some accused rapist or another - or something to that effect.

There's nothing that says that "misogynist defender(s) of the patriarchy" are kept off of DU. I've seen quite a few of them. Some of them even think that they are "progressive" - or that libertarianism is progressive - or something like that.

[NaturalHigh]

106. Well, you're welcome to believe what you want about me.

I am also free to believe that the accuser in this case is lying and that her most adamant defenders on this board are angry with men about one thing or another.

By the way, about the only time I see you post on this board is when you are accusing someone of rape or bashing men in some other way.

[redqueen]

114. So you're decidedly NOT in the 'we should wait and see' group?

Just trying to get all the battle lines straight in my head.

:P

[NaturalHigh]

133. I know how I would vote if I were picked for the jury today.

Of course, some new piece of evidence could come out to change my mind, bit at this point, I don't believe the lacrosse players are guilty of rape. Guilty of bad judgment and being assholes at a party, yes, but not rape.

[redqueen]

136. That's very good of you to admit that.

I would hope you'd tell the lawyers that ahead of time so that you could be disqualified.

[NaturalHigh]

137. Since I don't live in North Carolina...

I don't think I have to worry about being in the prospective jury pool.

[redqueen]

139. I meant that rhetorically...

the same way I assume you meant your statement about which way you'd vote.

Jesus Tapdancing Christ.


Perhaps, in the spirit of the thread, I should have just responded... "well do you even live there? because if not then you don't need to worry about it."

:rofl:

[NaturalHigh]

145. Fair enough.

[LostinVA]

94. You got it n/t

[Kingshakabobo]

103. What IS the case against the defendants?

I think she was raped/assaulted. I also think she was drugged.

That being said, I think she picked, at least, one wrong guy. I don't see how Seligmann could have done it when he was at an ATM when the crime was being committed.

Does that make me a rape apologist and women hater?

[bloom]

115. From what I've read

the Seligmann stuff sounds like bullshit.

That doesn't mean that I think it's not possible that they accused the wrong guy and that Seligmann doesn't have any possible defense.

I just think the photo timeline is bullshit. (There have been news accounts of why this is so).


I don't know if you are rape apologist or not. You probably know better than I do.

I think anyone who is serious about considering the case should consult http://justice4twosisters.blogspot.com/ read the news articles and not just spout off the FOX talking points.

[LostinVA]

119. That's a good site =-- thanks for posting it!

[Kingshakabobo]

171. Even if you discount the camera-phone photo time-stamps,.....

...the prosecution has a huge problem with this particular accusation. The neighbor's eyewitness, the phone records, the cabbies log, the ATM and the dorm magnetic-swipe all show Seligmann either being picked up or in-transit when the crime was allegedly committed.

Here is a pretty comprehensive time-line:



http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-lacrosse-rape-timeline.html

[gkhouston]

118. I wouldn't say so

I don't know what the deal is with Seligmann. If she was drugged (which seems likely as she appears to have gotten very wasted very fast), she could have made a bad ID. Or it could be that the ATM alibi isn't as airtight as the defense lawyer would have us believe. I guess we'll see who really has what when the trial happens.

[Kingshakabobo]

131. How do you figure?

There is a photo of him in front of the ATM at 12:24. The crime is reported to have been committed @ 12:30.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/duke.rape/index.html

>>>Defense attorneys said they have records showing that Seligmann called the On Time Taxi company at 12:14 a.m. from his cell phone that night. (A cabbie may be key to the defense)

On Time Taxi owner Moez Mostafa showed CNN his computer phone log, showing a call coming in at that time.

Mostafa said he picked up Seligmann and a friend at 610 North Buchanan Blvd. at 12:19 a.m. He said he could tell that Seligmann had been drinking, but that he didn't appear drunk.<<<<

[LittleClarkie]

148. I don't believe it is. But I'd like to see her get her day in court too

Both sides are innocent til proven guilty.

[bloom]

8. He must have grandiose visions of DU's power

if he thinks we could convict someone before a trial - or that we could even influence a jury (which FOX could do).

[redqueen]

9. I suspect something else... n/t

[LostinVA]

13. Me too n/t

[rinsd]

15. Oh lighten up.....

It was an illustration that if Fox News says black, DU says white. Fox News says guilty, DU says innocent man. And of course vice versa, DU thinks the Duke boys are guilty, you know Fox News is going to portray them as innocent. Hence the line film at 11.

[redqueen]

23. So "lighten up" is your new talking point?

You guys sure stay on point!

[rinsd]

29. You again?

Weren't you on the dance card yesterday? Do I really rate that much animosity?

:hi:

[redqueen]

35. Dance card?

Whatever are you on about?

Animosity, no... befuddlement, yes.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

11. The huge majority are defending the victim from smears

Rather than convicting the lacrosse players. And, I haven't seen one post saying for due process to be ignored. I, for one, welcome the trial -- it can't come fast enough.

[NaturalHigh]

14. When the trial comes...

I have a feeling you will be very disappointed.

[rinsd]

19. I stopped wading in that pool a long time ago.

Because most of the threads were scream fest over the trickles of info coming out initially.

Add to that it was more of a joke(Fox News and DU polar opposites, film at 11).

I do share your desire for a speedy trial.

[redqueen]

28. Please consider why others might not share your enjoyment of the 'joke'.

One can hope.

[rinsd]

34. Or one can reframe from being perpetually hysterical?

You seem to be the only one who lost it on this thread.

[redqueen]

36. Lost it?

Your characterizations are amusing!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

116. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

25. You'd think we were throwing stones at these poor, innocent guys.

:puke:

[LostinVA]

41. I know n/t

[ShortnFiery]

93. Yes! You did think I was a guy! And covered "It's a Saying!" BS!

You are BUSTED redqueen!

Bow to the ShortnFiery Goddess of the Universe!?! :P :woohoo:

[redqueen]

122. OMFG... I was talking about the ALLEGED RAPISTS!

Your act is tired...

Calm down already.

[bloom]

141. It is sad to see women get so caught up

in being hostile to people who defend rape victims.


I don't get it. And I don't get why you think you have some reason to "woohoo".

Because you were an asshole equal to some of the men on the subject?

Well - congratulations!!!!! :party: :eyes: :crazy:

[redqueen]

144. It's really something...

I can see why so many have sworn off these threads...

Un-befrickinly-believable!

[LostinVA]

168. Literally half this thread says

"Ignored" to me -- it's the only way I can read them now! The total rape apologists/misogynists of all gender/fruitcakes/etc I refuse to read anymore...

If you alert, at least some of the posts will be deleted.

[ComerPerro]

12. I admit, I believe they raped her. And they will get away with it

[NaturalHigh]

18. I believe they are innocent...

and she will get away with making false rape accusations. In a few years, she will do it again.

[ComerPerro]

27. Based on what? Their fine, upstanding moral character?

[redqueen]

30. The virgin vs. whore mentality? n/t

[NaturalHigh]

40. Based on everything that I have read so far...

I believe they are innocent and that the stripper is lying.

[redqueen]

44. "The stripper"... not "the woman".

Hmmmmmmm...

[LostinVA]

46. Or the "single mom college student"... double hmmmmm

[NaturalHigh]

52. Or the "convicted criminal"...

Hmmm.

[redqueen]

58. She has a record?

What crime did she commit?

Are all the frat boys' records spotless?

[NaturalHigh]

67. She stole a car from a cab driver after...

giving him a lap dance. She plead guilty. Yes, she has a criminal record. Where have you been?

[redqueen]

72. Avoiding this three-ring circus, quite wisely!

And former criminals *can* be victims of crime in the future, you know... I'm not sure what kind of liberal you are, but this one does not assume that all persons guilty of past crimes are therefore completly untrustworthy forevermore.

[NaturalHigh]

77. Neither do I...

I was merely pointing out that this woman could be labeled many different ways - not all of them are so heroic as the labels that you and LostinVA choose,

[redqueen]

86. Heroic labels?

Is "woman" a heroic label?

:rofl:

You guys can't keep your arguments straight!

If you're arguing with LostinVA, please kindly address your posts to her. :)

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

121. That would be NaturalHigh nt

[LostinVA]

127. Ah! Another interesting poster

giggle

[redqueen]

124. It's someone who misdirects their outrage.

:hi:

[ShortnFiery]

135. Like you ... redirecting it into a flame fest because IMO

You do not have the capacity to "break cleanly" ... you could NOT allow someone to agree to disagree.

You have to WIN? Isn't that what it's really about redqueen?

[redqueen]

138. No... it's about understanding.

Considering that some people are accusing those who are biased in favor of the accuser are the only ones reacting emotionally is unfair and wrong. I would like it to stop, and am responding to posts not in order to start or continue flamefests, but to foster an understanding that neither side in these discussions (those biased in favor of the accuser, and those biased in favor of the accused) are actually very similar.

I also wanted for you to understand that "calmer than you are, dude!" is a humorous comment, that's all over the place these days... as well as a fact, in our conversation. You have attacked me, directly, repeatedly throughout this thread, and I have no idea why.

If you would please post what it was I said about you that made you so defensive, I would greatly appreciate it... but all I have received in response to requests of the same from you are more sarcastic comments.

It's a shame, really.

[ShortnFiery]

159. No it's about proving yourself smarter than everyone else and

never ceasing to get in the last post. On that, I bow to the master. :-)

[redqueen]

162. Clearly you do not...

as you said earlier, in rather dramatic fashion, that you were allowing me to have the last post.

:)

But please do go on! I never tire of trying to build bridges of understanding.

I have to leave this conversation very soon, but I look forward to talking tomorrow.

:hi:

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

97. Why gosh, no... they aren't!

One is even up for a trial for gay bashing in DC!

And, wtf -- so women who have been arrested can't be raped? Hmmm....

[redqueen]

125. So the alleged rapists have criminal records too?

Why I'm so shocked that that person didn't mention that!

:rofl:

:puke:

[LostinVA]

128. Why yes, at least one of them does!

And, 15 members of the lacrosse team have records.

[redqueen]

152. It's really amazing...

that some would defend characterizing the accuser in such a negative way... yet leave out those characterizations about the accused.

REALLY interesting.

[LostinVA]

172. Especially when one of the accused assaulted a gay man,

said derogatory gay stuff to him, GOT A SLAP ON THE WRIST (a handful of community service hours). Oh -- and the gay man was just picked at random. Just a fag, you know.

Hmmm... a pattern of violent behavior against those he feels better than, paired with liking to yell derogatory comments whilst assaulting them... hmmm....... why, he must be an alcohol-raddled skank who's just in this for a book deal... oh wait... sorry! He was set up by that lying faggot!

[NaturalHigh]

48. Is she or is she not a stripper?

If she is, what's wrong with that description?

[redqueen]

53. You really don't know?

:rofl:

How quaint!

[NaturalHigh]

64. Well, if someone played golf for a living...

I would call him or her a golfer. I have no problem describing someone who strips for a living a stripper. Is there something wrong with that?

[redqueen]

80. It casts a negative light on the person.

Anyone living in this country ... well you'd think it'd be common knowledge. It's akin to calling the alleged attackers in this case "frat boy punks" or "drunken misogynists"

Are you familar with the whore vs. virgin mentality?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-29,GGLG:en&q=virgin%2Fwhore+mentality

I feel so blessed that I'm able to share this knowlege with you. :)

[NaturalHigh]

84. So even though she strips for a living...

we shouldn't call her a stripper. Is that the point you're getting at?

[redqueen]

87. Not if you want to appear unbiased.

But then, I gather from this thread that even those who claim to have no bias are quite biased!

This thread has really become quite amusing... not the subject, but the ANTICS!

:rofl:

[hiaasenrocks]

90. Now "bias" = "stating a fact." Great.

[redqueen]

105. LOL... yes... did you miss the virgin/whore thing?

Did it not make sense to you, how that characterization would be used to convey a bias to the reader?

[NaturalHigh]

92. Well, we must all appear to be "unbiased", mustn't we?

I will freely admit my bias. I am biased against people who make false rape allegations, which I truly believe this woman did.

[redqueen]

129. You believe something you do not know...

therefore you are biased.

I will admit that I lean towards thinking that they probably did rape her. But I do not *believe* it to be a fact.

I will also not call them "drunken misogynists" or "frat boy punks"... I will also not characterize them as criminals for their gay bashing.

See? That's the difference between me and some of the more reactionary people in this thread.

Peace. :hi:

[NaturalHigh]

143. As I said, I freely admit my bias in this case.

I wasn't at that party, so I can't claim to "know" what happened. However, I strongly believe that the stripper is lying, either to get revenge for the way she was treated or as a way to make a few bucks to settle a civil suit (which is sure to be coming soon). I also think it's quite possible that there is some dispute over payment (which is what some of the players have claimed).

[redqueen]

154. I got the impression...

that you were bashing those who are opposite you on the *belief* thing as reacting solely based on emotion. As we've clearly seen in this thread, that is completely untrue. Clearly there are those who side with the accused who are doing exactly the same thing. So I hope that unfair, unproductive bashing stops.

[northzax]

104. actually, for those who know Lacrosse Players

it's equvalent to calling them 'lacrosse players" and yet, I don't see you insisting that they be called 'the college students' or by their actual names, since we actually know them. the students were there because they are lax players, and the single mother college student was there because she is a stripper. so if you use 'lacrosse players' or 'players' to describe the accused, it is perfectly fair to 'stripper' to describe the victim.

[redqueen]

155. So you're saying that "lacrosse players" has the same societal

negative connotation for lacrosse players of any sex as "stripper" does for women?

Seriously?

And who called them "lacrosse players" in this thread? I'd like to know if they're familiar with that societal bias that I was unaware of until just now.

[northzax]

160. do you know any lacrosse players?

individually, they may be very nice people (in general) but in a pack? troglodytes. it's why I think something happened, what, I have no idea, but as a group, male lacrosse players are assholes. Everyone I have talked to, who also went to north-east colleges or prep schools (as I did) about this case has said, basically, 'well of course they did it, they're lax players.'

oh, and I was one, for a time, so I understand the groupthink.

and you may have noticed that the headline of this thread refers to "Duke Lacrosse Players"

[redqueen]

165. No, I do not.

Furthermore, I do not recognize that society at large views them this way, the way they view strippers (as we all well know).

Therefore, I do not agree with your theory that the use of "lacrosse players" as a label has the same negative characteristic as characterizing the accuser as a "stripper".

[LostinVA]

174. I may have, although sometimes I call them "the players"

or "the accused." Hmm... never knew calling athletes by the sport they play is some kind of BAD thing... guess I';m out of the Defense meme du jour...

[hiaasenrocks]

85. She chose that profession.

But that fact (and description) doesn't fit the hysterical emotional arguments offered by the side that believes she is telling the truth "because she said so."

[redqueen]

91. I don't know about you...

but I am trying to stay unbiased. We just don't know enough to say who is right and who is wrong.

Your accusation of hysterical (!) and emotional arguments is misplaced... VERY... :rofl:

[hiaasenrocks]

96. Riiiight.

You're trying to stay "unbiased" by arguing that people who accurately describe her profession are biased.

LOL.

[redqueen]

157. You appear to be deliberately ignoring the negative connotation...

that society holds for that word, and the resulting spin that puts on the issue...

You have also not weighed in on the characterization of her as a convicted criminal, while at least one of the accused also reportedly has a criminal record...

I am done arguing with you.

Good day.

Peace. :hi:

[Marie26]

178. Not really her "profession"

She'd only been working at "that profession" for three months before this incident, and that was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively in front of a group (according to Herald interview). She is also a mother, a wife, a student, and a soldier - and she was those things for a lot longer than 3 months. Why would we only define her based on this 3-month, part-time job?

[ismnotwasm]

173. Oh you would?

A women golfers get raped. There is a high profile trial. And you'd refer to her as "a golfer?"
Doubt it.

[NaturalHigh]

180. You doubt what?

That I'd refer to a woman as a golfer after she claimed she had been raped? Would she suddenly not be a golfer any more? Is the stripper not a stripper any more because she claimed to have been raped?

Get a grip. It seems that the same people who like to talk about how there is nothing wrong with being a stripper are pissed off when this woman is identified as being a stripper. Stop the presses - the accuser in this case is indeed a stripper, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. That's why she was at the house, after all, to strip and make money.

[etherealtruth]

164. My understanding is that she is a single mother ...

... a student and an exotic dancer.

What is wrong with the description is that "stripper" is not the sum total of her being.

[NaturalHigh]

169. You left out "convicted criminal."

That's part of the sum as well. By all means, let's be complete.

[LostinVA]

176. Right -- and that is being plucked out on purpose to try to

degrade her in some way to a certain segment of society. Stripper=skank, lying, drug addict (which is news to our own resident DU dancers). Why not call her a single mom? Or a college student? What visuals do they bring up?

Why are the lacrosse players being called lacrosse players or students, and not "whore mongers," or "drunks," or "gay bashers"?

Interesting, huh?

[ComerPerro]

56. fair enough

after all, shes just a stripper.

And, besides, rich people don't lie, do they?

[NaturalHigh]

73. Rich people sometimes lie.

Women sometimes make false allegations of rape.

[ComerPerro]

78. Especially strippers, eh?

[NaturalHigh]

81. Please locate a thread where I said that.

I don't believe this woman, simple as that. Yes, she is a stripper, and I have no problem calling her a stripper. It's not a slur as far as I know.

[ComerPerro]

95. Post 18, this thread

40. Based on everything that I have read so far...
I believe they are innocent and that the stripper is lying.



You may not have intended it, but your choice to use "the stripper" seems to reveal a bit of judgement on your part.


Imagine a sentence constructed in this manner:


"I belive that the rich, white, fratboy-wannabes raped that girl"

Yes, I am, in that sentence, casting judgement on the defendants...

[NaturalHigh]

101. Sorry, but using the label "stripper"...

is not the same thing as saying that strippers "especially" lie.

[ComerPerro]

107. Hey, I'm just picking up on your context

You said "I belive the stripper is lying" for a deliberate reason.

[NaturalHigh]

109. Probably because I believe...

that the stripper is lying.

[ComerPerro]

113. Whatever, man, forget it

[redqueen]

158. ComerPerro...

I'd like to thank you for your efforts in this thread.

:hi:

[marions ghost]

140. with regard to her part-time profession

it seems to me that she would not refer to herself as a stripper as it is a derogatory term in our culture. "Just a stripper," y'know. She would be acutely aware of that meaning and probably wouldn't like the connotation. I may be wrong, but more likely she would call herself a dancer or performer or even perhaps artist if she thought herself good enough at it. Euphemistic maybe, but a reasonable protective device.

It's a semantic thing, but calling her something other than 'stripper' indicates respect. Not everyone gets this. It seems like a subtle point. But labels carry meanings.

[NaturalHigh]

153. So even though she's a stripper...

we shouldn't refer to her as such. Now I get it. This must be one of those "politically correct" things.

[marions ghost]

175. yeah...

so if you didn't mean anything by it don't beat up on yourself. But if you agree that PC terms generally come about as a correction to some legitimate grievance you have to give it respect.

[NaturalHigh]

179. LOL...

I don't plan on beating up on myself for not measuring up to some arbitrary PC standard.

[ismnotwasm]

177. Very rarely

Do women make false accusations. Look up your stats. While you're at it look at up rape statistics for women AND men. And if you're really, really interested, look up how sexual assault has invaded elementery to middle school aged children.
We have a problem here. And it's not "false accusations"

[NaturalHigh]

181. I agree that it is rare.

Does that mean it is okay when it happens? Do we pretend that it never happens, and that even in cases like this, where the accuser's story is suspect, it is not a possibility? Does that mean that the accused are no longer entitled to a presumption of innocence?

[LittleClarkie]

151. And I believe that neither of you are in a position to know which is true

I will convict neither until their day in court, or til the charges are dropped.

[rinsd]

170. Calm rational and as usual spot on....

..can't say that I'm not surprised.

:hi:

[rinsd]

51. To each his own...

...I'd like to see what evidence is actually entered on record once this trial by media stops and the real trial starts.

[ComerPerro]

61. Trouble is, there won't ever be enough evidence

[NaturalHigh]

10. That's very clever.

Of course, it could just as easily say "Burden of Proof Be Damned: Duke Lacrosse Players Convicted by DU."

Regardless of all the snarky comments, if everything that has come out in the media so far proves to be true, the players will undoubtedly be acquitted. When that happens, I just hope the players and their families file civil suits against the accuser for slander and the DA for malicious prosecution. It goes without saying that there is no way the stripper in this case will ever have to face charges for lying to the police and the DA, since the DA has slurped up every word she has said and asked for more.

[bloom]

17. I've read quite a few of the news stories

and I don't get where anyone thinks there is ANY reason to think about acquittals.


You can see this blog if you missed something.

http://justice4twosisters.blogspot.com/

[NaturalHigh]

21. Surely you're not using that blog as your main source...

of information? I've read a lot of the news stories too, and I can't imagine a conviction at this point.

[bloom]

26. you must be just listening to the defense side, then

and not to anything that refutes it.


The defense has most of the stories out.

[redqueen]

33. We have no reason not to trust the mainstream media! n/t

[NaturalHigh]

43. I've been reading the news on the internet.

I rarely read blogs or watch television news.

[bloom]

63. If you went to the link I posted

you would see that it is linked to nearly every News article that has been written on the subject.


Not necessarily to every stupid commentary by every stupid sports fan, however. Who needs that? I don't.

[sendero]

32. The only thing worse than these media pieces...

... are the drooling morons who put any stock whatsoever in anything they say.

[redqueen]

38. Drooling morons?

Which media pieces would you be referring to here?

[sendero]

60. Pieces..

... that come out on a side of a case yet to be tried in a court of law. My epithet applies to DUers who take the same approach.

[redqueen]

66. Aha...

That's understandable...

I myself have not come to any conclusion... still it baffles me that so many seem so willing to assume innocence, when we all know how common rape is in this country... especially on college campuses.

So... the scales are nowhere near balanced between these two warring factions, not even close.

[sendero]

75. Exactly..

... all I want to see is the real truth come out and justice for everyone involved. We are not getting anything but bs spin from the defense and probably from the DA as well.

Let's all accept that until the trial everything that is said is not said under oath, and has an agenda.

[onenote]

47. acquitting or convicting, Fox News is full of crap

Usually Fox News and other media clowns that comment on legal proceedings don't wait for a trial to convict someone. Sometimes, like this case, they apparently aren't waiting for a trial to conclude that the accused will be found innocent. Either way they're full of crap.
onenote

[liberaliraqvet26]

147. How many times did they have the new black panther party on...

the other night?? I thought i saw them like 4 times. they love to show "the left" as radical extremists and scare the hell out of "middle america"

[bloom]

161. I didn't know FOX was doing that

but it's not surprising.

[pinto]

182. Locking.

Sorry. Thread's gotten to be an ugly mess.