Thought experiment: How would you lower the price of gas?

[BurtWorm]

Here's a radical idea that I toss out for your criticism: Raise a consumption tax of 50 cents a gallon on petroleum-based gasoline to pay for alternative energy research and public transportation, thereby making it less in demand and bringing the cost down.

Main problems: It probably wouldn't return gas to its original price range, even if the tax were to be repealed. It would probably also be extremely difficult to sell and would cause tremendous pain and anger in the electorate in the short range. But in the long-term, I think it really would prevent oil prices from rising too much higher, probably even lowering the cost pre-tax per gallon (if it did actually wean Americans from using their cars and trucks unnecessarily).

The tax could be counterbalanced with credits for purchases of hybrid vehicles or other alternative modes of transportation.

[BOSSHOG]

1. Reduce consumption

- more incentives for car pooling
- four day workweeks
- public transportation
- review school bus routes

If we were sincere in those endeavors, and others, we'd still get fucked by some other cosmic energy industry machination.

[corporate_mike]

38. buy hybrid cars

[loveable liberal]

2. I would not lower the price of gas.

High gas prices are the best thing for alternative fuels. Already the Germans are marketing a turbo diesel that gets 157 mpg. Its about time. Those who have invested in gas guzzling suv's; tough sh&%. I would encourage the increase in gas prices to break the back of the oil industry.

[BurtWorm]

7. That's why I'd raise a consumption tax on it.

Might as well collect money from the commons for alternatives.

[Warpy]

10. I'm with you there

but I would raise the minimum wage--a LOT--to help marginal workers cope with those higher prices.

[Atman]

13. Gas guzzling ANYTHINGS. Get OFF this damn SUV crap!

There is really no need for big V8's in passenger cars. Even V6's for that matter. We like the power, the vroom, but engine technology has come a long way. A well designed 4cyl in a car of appropriate size/weight is all the power most people need. If you want to tax, don't tax the fuel or the "SUVs", tax the engine sizes relative the the vehicle classification. THAT is where the fuel usage comes in. You can buy a small "SUV" that has a four cylinder engine that uses far less fuel than a Dodge Magnum Penis-Mobile.

[Initech]

3. Make it so oil barons cant run for government positions?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Arrest the former CEO.

seize his assets.

Return them to the public. Repeat with other crooks.

[Speck Tater]

5. Anything done to lower the price of gasoline...

... will only hasten the inevitable collapse of the petroleum-powered economy.

In the long run it doesn't matter one bit, because in the long run the oil will be gone whether at a high price or a low price. But the law of supply and demand says the price will only go up from here.

[Atman]

6. That would be a regressive tax that only hurts lower income levels

That is the WORST way to do it. The poor and low income households are getting HAMMERED because of the gas prices, and not just on the gas itself. These are the people who can least afford the increases in costs on everything else which is coming as a result of the increased fuel costs for farmers, truckers, manufacturers, etc. I know that doesn't answer your question, but I don't know how to lower the price of gas. But I do know that you don't help anyone by hurting those already being hurt.

[Atman]

8. Caps on CEO salaries, or special tax on thier incomes.

That fat bastard Jabba The Hut at Exxon/Mobil could ease the burden on tens of thousands of Americans all on his own, just by cutting back on the goddam PIE and SAUSAGES!

[Initech]

12. I have a different idea: tax overseas bank accounts

Hey, if a guy like Jabba The Hut at Exxon wants to hold a bank account in Dubai in order to avoid paying taxes, fuck him. They should have to pay an insane amount of taxes in order to hold a bank account overseas (something like 40 - 45%).

[Atman]

15. Good idea.

A "tarriff" on overseas holdings. It would not impact one single member of "the middle class." It would only hit the Fat Bastards.

[onenote]

25. a drop in the bucket

I think the oil exec salaries are obscene, particularly the $400 million parachute given Lee Raymond by Exxon. However, don't fool yourselves into thinking that amounts to more than a drop in the bucket when compared to the amount spent on gasoline. My math skills are mediocre, so I apologize in advance is I've screwed this up, but basically the US consumes (according to some reports) around 400 million gallons of gas a day. Which means that the $400 million given Raymond is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the over $400 billion spent annually on gas (figuring 400 million gallons a day @ $3.00 gallon x 365 days).

I'd love to see a windfall profits tax and a cap on salaries, but not because it will make a difference in what we pay for gas. For that, we need, among other things, more conservation, and better fuel efficiency in order to reduce demand.

onenote

[Atman]

27. Of course it is a drop in the bucket...but the symbolism alone is worth $$

It would give a least a small amount of HOPE to Americans that they're still a part of this country.

I wasn't actually serious...although Lee Raymond COULD give back his entire salary except for a couple million dollars and still be able to afford all his caviar, hookers and whiskey.

The other options, such as high taxes on overseas bank accounts, would, however, go a long way.

[BurtWorm]

17. You make an excellent criticism.

Is there a way to offset that negative effect on working families who can't afford the tax and who need more gas than, say, a city dweller to get to and from work? Something like gas stamps, that would entitle working people to a percentage of their purchases of gas to be free?

Just an idea.

[bluestateguy]

9. Military takeover of the oil companies

I'd send in the Marines to do it all in one night, which would forever be known as O-day.

[jayfish]

14. Yup, Nationalization.

Shouldn't be limited to just gas though. They could keep the existing tax structure reduce price and direct all remaining profits to alternative energy R&D.

Jay

[B Calm]

37. Price gouging in a time of war is un-american! It is time to nationalize

the oil companies!

[Jim Warren]

52. That's damn good

They use that rhetoric with 'war president", support the war effort, etc. etc.

I like it: Price gouging in time of war is un-American

PRICE GOUGING IN TIME OF WAR IS UN-AMERICAN

[Radio_Guy]

53. It is time to nationalize

Oil production will then be run much more efficiently with little or no pollution. Then we can lower prices here.

[happyslug]

11. Shut down the Military, they goes at least 5% of the world oil consumption

Yes, the US Military is one (if not the single main) user of Oil world wide. If you were to cut back on its oil usage (i.e. GROUNDING the Planes, mothballing all conventional powered ships, and forcing the Army to MARCH instead of being driven everywhere) you will have a tremendous drop in oil usage world wide and with it a huge drop in price.

[Atman]

16. How about getting rid of half the president's fleet of trucks and planes.

Does he really need to fly a fucking 747 everywhere he goes? Can't he take a business jet? And when he lands, does he need thirty-seven Escalades following him around? Get a goddam tour bus. Start thinking like real people instead of like a KING!

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

21. Increase milage per unit

The oil corperations dictate the distance a car can go per unit of fule. So a car can be made to get 1000 mile per unit of measure and greater. A 30 gal. tank which would be unnecessary would yield thirty thousand miles.The conversion is done threw the carburetor or the fule injection system.Than the feds tell the oil corperations how much they can charge per unit.Whatever is a thousand miles of fule in a flask not a tank or more to cost.Fule consumption is drasticly reduced, fule exhaust ,waste is also reduced.Eventually Oil is phased out and the oil corperations become something other than oil corperations.Could have been done over eighty years ago. Fifty or sixty miles to the unite of measure is the biggest lie those oil corperations ever told.Or they say the economy would collapse.The myth of oil holding up the parade.Does Ford really have a better idea?

[FSogol]

18. Simple, a high tax on 50% of oil company profits.

They could avoid the tax by investments in alternate energy research or increasing oil production infrastructure. They would never pay the tax, but it would have the effect of pumping billions into research.

[Atman]

32. Right now they're doing nothing with the profits

And still they want the government (read: the taxpayers) to underwrite their new refineries. They could build a dozen new refineries with the profits from last quarter alone, and still have money left over to have massive Bachanal with swimming pools full of caviar and champagne. And Fat Bastard Lee Raymond would still be able to eat dinner.

[FSogol]

47. They don't want new refineries. They said early this week

that the existing refineries are sufficient for the demand in the US. They are admitting that its nothing but rampant profiteering.

[mccoyn]

19. Well, this is not thought experiment...

I walk to work everyday. I walk to the grocery store every two or three days. I can usually go two or three weeks on just 10 gallons of gas.

Heres why. The gas rising problem is caused by inelastic demand. When gas prices went up 60 cents in the last two months that didn't cause people to use less of it. So, why would someone who sales gas ever lower prices? Even if there was a minor conservations effort it would be offset by a growing population and growing economy. The only thing that will fix the supply and demand curve is if we actually adjust our demand (consumption) based on the supply (cost). Gas prices go up so I stopped using the stuff.

Of course, I don't much care if prices go up or down. My life has been arranged and I won't be as affected by it as the rest of you.

[BurtWorm]

26. I live in NYC and use public transportation almost exculsively.

So I'm also not much affected by the price of gas.

I used to think gas had inelastic demand, but that's really an illusion. Food--cereals, vegetables, protein sources--have real inelastic demand. Everybody has to eat several times a day every day if possible. Nothing can change that demand curve. But the demand for gas can be affected by increases. It can make people change their behavior to keep themselves from having to buy gas as often as they would if the price were lower.

[Opusnone]

20. Simple - remove all the profits

Just like drugs. Take the profits for the druglords out of it and prices fall. Nationalize the industry. While we're at it, let's nationalize the banks, credit card companies and insurers, also.
There are better ways to make money than extortion, usury and "Insurance".

[0007]

22. I'd bring the troops home and apologize to the world for our

asshole oil president. Then I'd start on the oil companies and the auto makers to begin a mass transportation system on the dime they sucked out of the American people. I'd shut down every goddamn Wal-Mart store.

[Sanity Claws]

23. Break 'em up!

They're an oligopoly. How the hell could the government approve Exxon taking over Mobil. It's essentially a recreation of the old Standard Oil Company that the feds broke up in the early part of the 20th Century.

[longship]

24. Lower consumption is the *only* way.

nt

[KansDem]

28. Charge 50 cents a cylinder...

Motorcycles (2 cyl) = $1 a gallon
Small economic cars (4 cyl) = $2 a gallon
Midsize cars (6 cyl) = $3 a gallon
Big luxury cars, trucks, and SUVs (8 cyl) = $4 a gallon

Reward fuel efficiency with less-costly gasoline.

[BurtWorm]

29. Nice idea.

[puerco-bellies]

30. Easily done.

Stringent Anti-Monopoly Laws. No entity or individual, that explorers and or extract fossil fuels may engage, or hold any part of any corporation that transports, refines, or distributes fossil fuels.

The same for any corporations or individuals, public or private can be involved in any other stage of production, transportation, refinement, distribution, wholesale, and retail of any fossil fuel product refined or unrefined, may have any holdings in any company that is involved in the same or any other sector of the fossil fuel industry. You will immediately have true competition in all stages of the energy sector and this would be reflected in the end user price.

[slackmaster]

31. Incentives to get people to cut back on commuting JUST A LITTLE

Some kind of tax break or credit for employers who:

- Encourage telecommuting, or

- Reduce the number of employee miles driven by rewarding car poolers, or

- Offer employees the option of working 9-hour days and getting every other Friday or Monday off, or a 4-day work week of 10-hour days.

Even a 5% reduction in gasoline consumption would have a significant impact on the supply chain and therefore prices.

And then there's always the "Invade Canada" option.

http://www.pirate969.org - May be unavailable for a while.

[B Calm]

33. In the long run all cars sold in the United States should be able

to run on pure ethanol. Congress should force oil companies to help pay for pure ethanol conversions for every car already on the road. Huge tax incentives should be given to anyone who wants to purchase an ethanol still.

[Atman]

39. With global warming a reality, would we then be at the mercy of weather?

Can you imagine what would happen if we had a serious two or three year drought and the corn crops dried up?

[B Calm]

40. There would be a much lower need for oil, thus dropping gas prices.

During times of drought we would have a nice oil reserve because of the lower demand.

[Atman]

43. But can cars switch back and forth between pure ethanol and gasoline?

I know we're not talking about tomorrow, but is it possible? I'm no gear head, so I really just don't know anything about it.

[B Calm]

45. From what I've heard, yes! But, without being converted they

can't run on pure ethanol.

[NickB79]

55. Good luck growing enough corn for all that ethanol

Unless cellulosic ethanol production is perfected and rushed into production in the next few years, there is simply not enough land to grow the 140 BILLION gallons of vehicle fuel the US consumes each year using conventional ethanol-from-corn production methods. Currently, the US uses 14% of it's annual corn production to produce only 3 billion gallons of ethanol, or less than 3% of our vehicle fuel demands. If 100% of all the corn produced in this country were converted to ethanol (no Corn Flakes for breakfast, no corn for the pigs, cows and chickens) we would only be able to produce 20% of our fuel demands. Like I said, without cellulosic ethanol production (still in the experimental phase) we can't grow enough corn for fuel production.

Here is a link on the DU Environmental forum showing the current US drought map: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x52226

You'll note that HALF of the breadbasket of the US is currently in drought phase.

BTW, it is actually illegal to have an ethanol still that produces more than one gallon at a time of ethanol, per the BATF. I belive it is a hold-over from the days of Prohibition, but nonetheless it is still on the books as law.

[MadHound]

34. Here's what I would do

I would mandate that all vehicles be able to run on biodiesel within ten years. I would also start offering incentives to both city governements, farmers, and businesses to start developing ponds and infrastructure to grow the algae needed to make the biodiesel. Wastewater treatment plants would be great for this purpose, and their already in place. I would also offer tax incentives for people to start turning in their gas powered vehicles and buying diesel powered vehicles. I would also start offering R&D incentives to further the progress of diesel engines, including making them even less polluting than they are now.

I'm willing to bet that over eighty percent of our fuel consumption would be biodiesel, if this is worked right.

[LSK]

35. ok -Shut the fuck up about Iran

1. Shut the fuck up about Iran

2. Shut the fuck up about Iran

3. Shut the fuck up about Iran

2. Investigate Oil Refinaries getting shut down in the 90s

3. Raise CAFE standards

4. Winfall profits taxes combined with tax breaks to alternative energy efforts.

[BurtWorm]

36. How about shutting the fuck up about Iran?

:patriot:

[LSK]

46. gee thats a great idea too!!!

Shut the fuck up about Iran!!!

[TheFriedPiper]

41. Simple: Legalize HEMP

Run all diesel engines on Hemp-based ethanol.

Problem solved.

[B Calm]

42. You are right!

[newyawker99]

54. Hi TheFriedPiper!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[demosincebirth]

44. Pass a law that one grade of gasoline be sold.

[aden_nak]

48. You can't do it with just one law. But you can solve the problem.

1) Offer better tax incentives for purchasing Hybrid cars. Currently, the incentive system is confusing and under-reaching. My father, a well educated man, placed three separate calls to the IRS, and none of them were able to explain how the tax incentive for purchasing a Hybrid car worked, or how/when he would be elligible. Additionally, most of the car dealers don't have a clear answer, either. It doesn't work an an incentive if people don't even know how to qualify for it. The current tax credit requires people to purchase a Hybrid within a certain period of time. But that period of time is not a set calendar date. Rather, the tax credit's cutoff point changes based on how many Hybrid cars have already been sold. It's confusing, wasteful, and it doesn't do its job because it will probably only go to those Americans who were going to buy a Hybrid anyway.

2) Stop offering auto manufacturers loopholes for emissions and fuel economy. No vehicle class with optional leather interiors and built-in DVD players is a light truck. Period. Start rating SUVs and other larger personal vehicles in the same category as normal four-door cars in terms of their emissions and fuel economy requirements. The era of <30 mpg automobiles needs to end.

3) Institute a gasoline tax on a sliding scale based on fuel economy. Which is to say that if you own a four cylinder car, or a hybrid car, you pay less at the pump per gallon than someone who's tooling around with a V8. Owners of larger cars would call that unfair, but people who are actually being responsible about their fuel consumption would argue that it's equally unfair for them to have to pay more in the marketplace because of someone else's luxury. Obviously, this plan would need to be phased in in order to give automobile owners time to re-evaluate their current vehicle choices.

[BurtWorm]

49. Excellent post, aden_nak.

:toast:

#3 is an idea whose time has come.

[sweetheart]

50. Are we actually empowered to implement the experiment?

Gas gets cheaper when expectations of scarcity change.

This happens when persons come from the heart, stepping up from
the anamistic survival scarcity mentality to the heart where
there is always enough love for each other. Its a very old
thought experiment, that's been misunderstood. When people
live centered from their higher awareness, they discover that
it is easy to be generous, it is nature's way.

So to implement "generous", the president cuts the military
budget by 50%, ends the drugs war, and declares a worldwide
peace and goodwill negotiated expedited-return of iraqi sovereignty
through the UN. The new president needs only say,

A great man once said: "There is nothing to fear but fear itself."
We are, as of today, a nation at peace. The american people have the
knowhow and the ingenuity to develop clean sustainable power and
economic systems that give our people a good standard of living, while
not cheating any people out of a living wage, anywhere in the world.
We are a global people, facing a global warming problem, it is no
time for selfish interests. Please lord, bless us with
inspiration to overcome the selfishness.

[B Calm]

51. Strictly enforce a 55 mph national speed limit. Pay truck drivers

by the hour instead of the mile!

[geniph]

56. Nationalize the industry

and while we're at it, take back the electric, gas, and WATER companies!