Ray McGovern PUBLICLY Accuses Rummy Of Lying About WMDs

[kpete]

UPDATE: CNN reports that the questioner was 27-year CIA veteran Ray McGovern.

From: Think Progress
Rumsfeld Called Out On Lies About WMD
VIDEO: http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/rum.320.240.mov
Speaking in Atlanta today, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was sharply questioned about his pre-war claims about WMD in Iraq. An audience member confronted Rumsfeld with his 2003 claim about WMD, “We know where they are.” Rumsfeld falsely claimed he never said it. The audience member then read Rumsfeld’s quote back to him, leaving the defense secretary speechless. Watch it:



Of course, Rumsfeld did say he knew where the WMD were. From ABC’s This Week, 5/4/03:

STEPHANOPOULOS: And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: …We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Read the full transcript HERE.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/04/rumsfeld-called-out/

[skooooo]

1. He's a LIAR LIAR LIAR!

[Harper_is_Bush]

105. You inspired me to change my sig. thx! n/t

[MikeNY]

129. Insane level of mismanagement

Whose the bigger threat to the US? Al Queda or these absolutely demented and corrupt ideologues running the White House and Congress.. looks like the USA is in a big catch 22 until 2008 when hopefully, some possible common sense can be returned to the US government. Emphasis on hopefully.. I guess I'm a pessimist.

[Jack from Charlotte]

146. Recall Kerry during debate quoting AWOL about not caring about Bin Laden..

The AWOL/moron said, "I never said that." 30 minutes later when the debate ended every network was showing footage of The moron saying exactly as Kerry said he did.

I'd have run an ad with The AWOL/moron denying saying that followed by footage showing him with the quote until everyone in the country could quote it by heart.

[caledesi]

2. This is a MUST-SEE. Rumsfeld called on the carpet and the

guy from the audience doesn't back down. It's good!

[KansDem]

72. "guy from the audience doesn't back down"

And this was definitely a Bush-friendly crowd! When the accusation of lying first came up, the audience softly booed the questioner. Then when Rumsfeld said he didn't lie, the audience clapped.

But the man stood his ground and made Rumsfeld look like the liar he is.

[jamesinca]

97. The segment was introduced on ABC news as...

A guy who claims to be from the CIA, Ray McGovern. Translation - some blow hard, BS'er who gets out of line and is seeking attention only for himself, a man who hates America.

[foreverdem]

136. CBS News Radio described McGovern as..

.. a heckler. I didn't realize that calling an ass like Rummy on his lies was heckling.

[Dr Fate]

3. Now that we have proof on camera- which Democrat will call him a "Liar?"

And I mean ON TV- not on a blog or in a "release."

We have proof, on camera- is that enough to not be too frightened to go on TV and make a truthful, blunt statement about Rumsfeld w/o being frightened?

Lying is an impeachable offense, according to 1990's era media and Republicans- so where is the Democrat with the Colberts to look Wolf Blitzer in the eye and say so?

Hey- I know- maybe we can get a comedian or TV star to say it.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

33. "The 'colberts' to... " LOL!

[rodeodance]

34. I do not think they will use the L. word as it tends to shut down conversa

tions.

[Dr Fate]

43. Wrong. CNN is repeating the Rummy clip, not shutting it down.

I disagree- if they use the "L word"- then it will force them to split hairs as to how they are not lying- thus digging themsleves deeper- just like now.

It will force them all to come out and say "HOW DARE THEY!"- (see Colbert)

Since when is there to be a "conversation" with these liars & criminals? I want blunt ACCUSATIONS- the time for "conversations" with these crooks is WAY past.

DEMS are frightened of using blunt, truthful language for some other reason. Perhaps they simply just dont want to talk about it- the whole "telling the truth about Bush makes us look weak on defense" thing.

It's too bad Republicans (the winners) dont agree with you (see Gore lied about inventing the internet and Kerry lied about his medals)

[DoYouEverWonder]

83. We need to stop the bs-ing

and start calling a spade, a spade.

McGovern was awesome. Such incredible bravery in the face of a hostile crowd. This is what a true patriot looks like.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

88. Kind of the way that "treasonous" does, huh? A lie is a lie. Disagreeing

with the actions of the American Government is patriotic. MKJ

[clydefrand]

57. Wolf did show the clip from today's speech/question

and he also read his exact words from March 2003. So it is on CNN. Don't know about other networks.

[ShortnFiery]

64. But the latest lap dog media rep on Lou Dobbs just pointed out

"Well you have to give Rumsfeld credit because they were ready to carry him out and he let him stay and said "This is America." Bullshit! That's partially a LIE. Rumsfeld DID let him stay but it was Ray McGovern who said as Rumsfeld was waiving off his thugs, "This IS America!" to which Rumsfeld retorted, "You're getting plenty of play Sir."

Listen to the Video before you Report, Pentagon Media Whore on Lou Dobbs tonight. And no, I don't give Rumsfeld credit because he help LIE us into an illegal and immoral war! We are not supposed to have our jack booted thugs carry-out those who ask questions ... that should be "a given" in a Democratic Republic. Give Rumsfeld Credit? My ass! He's a war criminal and he was proven on this video tape to be A LIAR! :grr: :thumbsdown:

Who was that guy (Pentagon Assignment I believe) Reporting this to Lou Dobbs tonight anyway?


We're lucky to have brave Americans like Ray McGovern :patriot: :applause:

[spanone]

65. Yea, but Dobbs wasn't buying any of that crap.

Jamie McIntyre tried to shill for Rumsfeld, explaining that if you didn't know you were lying or some shit. Rumsfeld Lied. Lou was pissed. Especially about Rummy saying he wasn't in the intelligence business. Dobbs was incredulous.

[ShortnFiery]

71. I hate when Lou does that anti-immigrant stuff ...

But this is one area where credit is due. He rocked tonight! :-)

[Martin Eden]

159. Don't forget the Office of Special Plans

Rumsfeld had Doug Feith run a neocon unit in the Pentagon to manipulate and spin intelligence when the CIA wasn't licking the administration's policy boots with enough saliva.

[WinkyDink]

82. YES! A PERFECT neologism!

Mr. Dink has been directed to popularize this term amongst his pals!

"Wow! That ex-CIA guy going after Rummy has big colberts!"

[LiviaOlivia]

4. Audio link:

http://audio.wegoted.com/dailyaudio/5306Rumsfeld.mp3

[Dudley_DUright]

5. Speaking truth to power seems to have become fashionable lately

I have admired Ray McGovern for sometime, and now I admire him even more.

[Dr Fate]

9. Yes comedians and the CIA- now we need some Democrats to do it.

ON TV- like this & the Colbert thing- not in a "press release" or on a website.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

14. Ray McGovern has been one of my heros since before the war.

He had been one of the few outspoken critics of it. I love that he reemed Rumsfeld face to face! How beautiful is that! :)

[freefall]

142. Ray McGovern, Mohamed ElBaradei, Scott Ritter and a few others

are the reason I knew there were no WMD long before the invasion and occupation (it is not a war) began. It is great to see Ray McGovern finally getting the attention of national media.

:woohoo: :woohoo:

Go Ray!!!

Peace,

freefall

[chaumont58]

6. Richard Cohen will accuse McGovern of bullying Rummy

and, of course, not being funny.

[AndrewJacksonFaction]

39. I Bet.

He probably won't even mention the fact that Rumsfeld was lying.

[Strawman]

119. Yes because speaking truth to power is such a "tired phrase"

[LSK]

7. Thom Hartmann just played it on Randi's show

[LSK]

17. and again

wow wow wow

[Beaverhausen]

20. WOW!! This is great.

Rummy has to go.

[drdtroit]

8. Another lying pos in the party of corruption! n/t

[marmar]

10. Ray McGovern has always been outspoken on this...

He was one of the witnesses, along with Joe Wilson, Cindy Sheehan and John Bonifaz, at John Conyers' initial hearing.

[rodeodance]

36. He was there at the Wooley/Lee Dem Hearing also last week.

[marmar]

78. Lynn Woolsey and Barbara Lee? What was the hearing about?

:hi:

[Terran1212]

80. This maybe?

http://woolsey.house.gov/latestnews.asp?ARTICLE5110=61313

[SlavesandBulldozers]

53. yep. i remember seeing that hearing.

in many ways it was the beginning.

[joeunderdog]

99. Here's his prophetic pre-war Memo to the pResident.

Today we write with an increased sense of urgency and responsibility. Responsibility, because you appear to be genuinely puzzled at the widespread opposition to your policy on Iraq and because we have become convinced that those of your advisers who do understand what is happening are reluctant to be up front with you about it. As veterans of the CIA and other intelligence agencies, the posture we find ourselves in is as familiar as it is challenging. We feel a continuing responsibility to "tell it like it is"- or at least as we see it-without fear or favor. Better to hear it from extended family than not at all; we hope you will take what follows in that vein.

We cannot escape the conclusion that you have been badly misinformed. It was reported yesterday that your generals in the Persian Gulf area have become increasingly concerned over sandstorms. To us this is a metaphor for the shifting sand-type "intelligence" upon which your policy has been built.

Snip

In your state-of-the-union address you spoke of Iraq's pre-1991 focus on how to "enrich uranium for a bomb" and added, "the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." No doubt you have now been told that this information was based on bogus correspondence between Iraq and Niger. Answering a question on this last week, Secretary Powell conceded-with neither apology nor apparent embarrassment-that the documents in question, which the US and UK had provided to the UN to show that Iraq is still pursuing nuclear weapons, were forgeries. Powell was short: "If that information is inaccurate, fine."

But it is anything but fine. This kind of episode inflicts serious damage on US credibility abroad-the more so, as it appears neither you nor your advisers and political supporters are in hot pursuit of those responsible. Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts has shown little enthusiasm for finding out what went awry. Committee Vice-Chairman, Jay Rockefeller, suggested that the FBI be enlisted to find the perpetrators of the forgeries, which US officials say contain "laughable and child-like errors," and to determine why the CIA did not recognize them as forgeries. But Roberts indicated through a committee spokeswoman that he believes it is " inappropriate for the FBI to investigate at this point." Foreign observers do not have to be paranoid to suspect some kind of cover-up.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0319-08.htm

This guy had balls and foresight and he was way ahead of the curve. Any time he says something, I listen.


Ray... :yourock:

[Sequoia]

11. Excellent!

[BlueEyedSon]

12. Who are those idiots cheering FOR rummy???

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. Answered yer own question. *lol*

[Mr_Spock]

41. Hand-selected RW morons who are there to root for their liar

Republicans are every bad word ever invented!

[Imagine My Surprise]

50. Just a people once hired "professional mourners" to attend funerals...

and wale and carry on over people they didn't even know, RumAss probably travels with professional cheerers.

[Ammonium]

58. Welcome to Georgia

Now you see what I face on a daily basis. They dumb, souther, and racist as hell. They'd still have the stars and bars on the state flag if they could get away with it not being overtly racist.

[Southsideirish]

102. Knuckle draggers they "drug" in for the meeting to offset "truthseekers"

[Pacifist Patriot]

140. Backwash

[helderheid]

13. McGovern, eh? Fantastic!

[Coexist]

15. Blitzer just proved the questioner CORRECT and Rummy Wrong!

from past quotes.

Ha ha.

ha ha ha ha ha!!!

[Fridays Child]

16. It wasn't me! It was Colin Powell, George Bush, and the troops.

Have you ever heard anything so pathetic in your life?

[cliss]

76. He does this!

I've read plenty of speeches by Rumsfailed. ALWAYS, without fail, he blames others. In 1 speech, I counted 7 individuals & countries that he shamelessly blamed. Here they are in order: The generals, the troops, the Turks (for not letting us go in), the generals again, generals again, Pentagon staff, troops and finally generals.

He's a worthless creep.

[One_of_8]

18. Excellent!

As frequently as is possible, whenever one of these lying killers appears to speak, they should have their own words thrown in their face. Obviously the room was full of sympathetic Bushites, and there may be no getting through to them, but there should be no public forum where these criminals can continue to spew their lies without being called on them.

[lakeguy]

19. who the hell let THAT question past the screeners? nt

[warrens]

21. "Have George McGovern killed."

Donald "Mr. Burns" Rumsfeld

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. Guess he doesn't care much for people named McGovern.

[Trouser Trout]

25. Mr McGovern

Why do you hate our troops? You think they're wearing those special suits for nothing?So what if we lied, so what if they died.Where is your patriotism, sir?

[CrazyOrangeCat]

46. Heh-heh. Hey Beavis, his name is Trouser Trout. Heh-heh.

:D

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

90. LOL, welcome to DU, nice one.

MKJ

:toast:

[Disturbed]

26. "Rumsfeld Shouldn't be Fired, He Should be Indicted."

Rumsfeld Shouldn't be Fired, He Should be Indicted
by Matthew Rothschild

“Secretary Rumsfeld has publicly admitted that . . . he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison’s rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross,” the report noted. The Geneva Conventions require countries to grant the Red Cross access to all detainees. “

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0418-24.htm

Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfeld has not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfeld.

The US, Govt., Congress, and the Justice Dept no longer abide by the Geneva Convention or the Constitution of the USA.

[Chimichurri]

42. Congress! wake the fuck up!!! and get this man his orange suit.

People are dying!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. That is one for the history books. When the ** junta finally collapses

that one will make it into the media montage for sure.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. K & R.

[central scrutinizer]

28. first he hides behind Colin Powell, then the troops

He knows he has no credibility, falsely believes that Colin Powell still has some, so he trots him out first as an attempt to defuse the accusation. Subtly playing the race card, then when that doesn't work, he hides behind the troops with that ridiculous story about putting on the bio-weapons suits. Maybe, dumbass, they put on the suits, because the suits in the Pentagon needed those photo-ops to help them hide. What a fucking scumbag

[Skip Intro]

38. he crawls behind the troops for cover, just like coward bush

this gang really turns my stomach, the LIARS should be awaiting tial for war crimes

they want everyone to just move on, but I don't think that's how it will all end

evil will not have the final say

maybe justice will be served, eventually

[Karenina]

66. Does anyone else recall

an inflamed Colon calling BULLSHIT on that crap he presented at the U.N.? He knew he was lying, everyone else knew he was lying, he knew everyone else knew he was lying, he knew everyone else knew he knew he was lying... and he did it anyway?

[pauliedangerously]

125. I'm glad to hear someone else remembers that!

Hey Karenina! It's been a long time.


:toast:

[Karenina]

138. Na, Du!!!

:toast:

[rodeodance]

29. Wolf actually did a fair segment of this story just now. (link below)

.....http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1102888

[rodeodance]

31. He showed Rummys ealier clip (saying he knew where they were)--te he

[katty]

30. Great clip-want to see more of this happening!

[babylonsister]

32. Thanks for that; he was great, and knew his stuff!

:toast:

[pnorman]

35. Think Progress

For the past few weeks, I have been UNABLE to call up thinkprogress.org. The response has always been: "The connection has timed out ... etc". Does anyone else here have the same problem?

pnorman

[Dudley_DUright]

44. No problem here

Try this link, it works for me.

http://thinkprogress.org/

[pnorman]

54. Thanks but still the same problem.

I'm using the most recent version of Firefox. It must be something in my system that's blockinhg it, but I can't imagine what. My Anti-virus is AVG (German) and includes a firewall. I also have a Stingray firewall device between my router and my computer. But heretofore, I've been notified beforehand if I wanted a certain page to be blocked or go through.

But now that I know that the problem is in my own machine, I can start probing around.

pnorman

[henslee]

79. I have the same problem.

[eppur_se_muova]

85. I vaguely remember something about cache settings in Firefox...

posted by another DUer in the last few days, if you can search.

[vickitulsa]

89. I use Firefox and AVG also, and it opened right up for me.

I don't have the Stingray, however.

Good luck!

[pnorman]

95. Thanks. I'm getting closer.

That Stingray is a neat device and gets good reviews: http://techabsorbed.com/Reviews/Security/Stingray-Intelligent-Hardware-Firewall.html

No setup involved, and glued to the tower where my right eye peripheral vision monitors it, it glows red-orange quite prominently whenever it detects (and blocks) a firewall attack. I can disable it by just pushing a large button (it blinks to remind me that it's disabled). I did so, and still NFG. I just fired up IE, and still NFG with that browser!

Am I, a Chomsky socialist, on their "No Fly List"??? Someone please give me their email contact address. If more than one person has this problem, perhaps they may already be aware of it and may have a suggestion.

pnorman

[vickitulsa]

133. Email contact addy here:

[e-mail]

Thanks for info on Stingray, will check it out.

[Opusnone]

37. On AAR right now with Thom Hartman!

[Mr_Spock]

40. That was very cool of McGovern

:D

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. Just saw the clip on CNN....McGovern is very courageous! K & R.

[Disturbed]

47. Cheney did the same.

These criminals bring a new meaning to arrogant. They lie about everything even when there is Video proving their lies. I shake my head and curse them everyday.

[onehandle]

48. CNN made him look like some off-camera hippie.

Would have been better if other people hadn't been heckling Rummy at the same time.

Still better than nothing. Bush and his lackeys always have this "how dare you" look on their face when they get called out. The royalist fascists.

[Dora]

49. Excellent! !!!! !!!! !!!!

more more more

[brentspeak]

51. How soon until Ray McGovern is labled a "man with psychiatric problems"?

Or "a disgruntled ex-CIA employee who had many run-ins with superiors"?

[ShortnFiery]

73. No, his only crime is that he was not one of Porter Goss's RW boys

Damn our Democratic Senators who voted to approve the appointment of Porter Goss as the CIA Director. They should find their spine, each and every one of them and call Rumsfeld a liar as well as demand the dismissal of Porter Goss. :grr:

[bdamomma]

98. oh yes, I can hear it now

they always use that disgruntled employee shit, but it was great. But what is with those people who were booing when those women got up, boy, these people are addicted to that kool aid. And clapping, geez, it's really a cult.

[kpete]

52. Rumsfeld "Colbert-ed" by CIA man

[Bok_Tukalo]

55. While there are many comical things about that absurd quote

I think the most ironic is that the only thing that would have made it demonstrably false was if they didn't exist.

"They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

[Dudley_DUright]

56. Yeah, Rummy thought he was covering all the bases

when he really didn't know jack.

[Jacobin]

61. north, south east and west

And the media ate this gibberish up

[vanboggie]

59. McGovern is awesome

This was an extremely cool move. Kudos to our patriotic ex-CIA.

[cloud75]

60. the person asking the question is doing the job the media should be doing.

[YankeyMCC]

62. An important piece of video

It's going right into my archives for my son.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

63. K&R. What a great confrontation! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

67. We have a new, "Now he's got BIG brass balls!" candidate :-)

:patriot:

[wookie294]

68. Fox News did a report on this

Brit Hume said questions were asked by "a man who said he worked for the CIA for 27 years." LMFAO!!!

Brit Hume knows Ray McGovern worked for the CIA, but couldn't quite get himself to tell his viewers that McGovern did work for the CIA for 27 years. It's not a national secret. But reporting the truth would give Ray more credibility than Hume wanted to give.

[passy]

69. He forgot to mention who gave Saddam those chemical weapons

Now why isn't that picture used more often?

[pacalo]

70. It's still hard to believe this cabal can still find defenders.

Up is down in this crazy Twilight Zone.

Ray McGovern is a hero.

[Terran1212]

74. GO ATLANTA!

I got an email about going to this (I live about 40 minutes away); didn't go but am proud of the people who did go and protest.

[spanone]

75. Like Napoleon Dynamite said, it was sweeet.

[malaise]

77. Watching on CNN now

what a heckling. Watching McGovern now.

[symbolman]

81. Here's Ray McGovern in another clip

from the Downing Street Minutes that I filmed.

http://www.tbtmradio.com/video/wmd.wmv

Ray had a LOT to say at those hearings.. he was VERY INFORMED, VERY Charming, he'd make a great president in my opinion. He's one of the sanest nicest folks I know, ex CIA for 27 years, interviewed him after the Hearing at the Rally in front of the White House, a real sweetheart, and SHARP as a tack.

[omega minimo]

94. Thank you symbolman, if not for you.........

we would not have seen Cindy and Joe Wilson and Ray McGovern sitting side by side at the DSM "basement hearings."

Wilson and McGovern were both (and ever since, consistently) informed, spot on and so dignified about it. They are PRIME examples of people who are working the system through the proper channels, staying "cool" as someone said here, under the MOST trying circumstances. AND their humanity shines thru, even as their emotions are in check.

We could all take a lesson from this. This is advocacy at its best.

Stunning!


:thumbsup:

[symbolman]

143. Yep

They would bring real CLASS to the White House, and to our Govt. THESE people make ME feel SAFE :)

WHen I did show up to film, having heard that no one was going to, except for maybe CSPAN 3 (and like I told Mike Malloy, who was following my filming, "WHO in the Hell has CSPAN 3?"), and then when I got there the room was FILLED with cameras, and I was being told that I should have signed up to get in the room.. they weren't going to let me in after 12 hours of flying, deadheading to DC from Hawaii..

I refused to budge, then I SAW Conyers walking out of another door to the hearing and I CHASED him down three hallways to the elevator. I said, "Sir, I'm here representing the blogosphers and I need to get in that room and film the whole event. I'm not here to collect little clips that I can use to stab you in the back, I am going to film the entire hearing and make sure that people can have access to it.."

He looked right at me and said, "No."

Then I realised he was JOKING, he's so dry! Such a nice guy..

He had his aides take me to the Hearing room and get me in, the aide told the person who'd kicked me out, that Congressman Conyers specifically requested that "this man be allowed in to film the hearings, and that not only was it a good idea, but that it was THE LAW.."

I really had to fight not to smile when I heard that, it was so over the top.. then once inside I had to FIGHT to film the first 20 minutes of it, elbows and shoving with the media. But I got it, and made a lot of use of it in my Rove's War film as well.

Mr Wilson explained it ALL right in that room, and with style and grace, just like Cindy and Mr McGovern, all REAL HUMAN BEING with HEARTS and SOULS.

Something sorely lacking in the media and govt these days.

I fully agree with you, and thanks for your comments :)

[omega minimo]

151. WOW Great story!!

Conyers "teasing" while invoking actual American tradition and law...... :bounce: :patriot:

May be redundant, but.........

Cindy was an "unknown" at the time-- her personal dignity was striking because she was a "normal" person, "just" a citizen, testifying in a public hearing, flanked by those who do this for a living in the halls-- or basements :evilgrin: :evilfrown: --of power.

Mr. McGovern had professional demeanor unruffled by the betrayal to his profession that was being discussed (DSM).

And Joe Wilson!! Not only were all three betrayed as American citizens, and two of them betrayed in their professional capacity-- Ambassador Wilson also had the exposure of his wife and her work at stake.

I was impressed by all of them and especially at Mr. Wilson for his ability to "work the channels" under those circumstances.

I know that not all of the "normal" people want to try advocacy on this level, but they need to know that they CAN and they have the RIGHT to. (The wonks already know who they are). This showed that even when citizens have personal and/or professional stake in a matter and might feel like screaming from the rooftops, the work that HAS to be done and IS being done (like Conyers, et al and the current state impeachment efforts) is by people who nudge the PROCESS in the direction it is designed to go. WE can DO that. These heroes provide great examples.

:hi:

[symbolman]

153. The atmosphere in there was ELECTRIC

I think one of Ray's greatest lines was, when asked by a Congress Lady, if it was "unusual" for a sitting VEEP to go to the CIA for any reason.

He said, "No.. its not unusual.. it's UNHEARD OF.." the room exploded in laughter, all the media, folks, everyone.

He explained that NO president has spent time in CIA headquarters, let alone a VEEP, said that even BUSH SENIOR, who the CIA headquarters was NAMED AFTER didn't go there.

It was marvelous.. He's a treasure.

And people, YOU can be involved. EVERYONE GET A VIDEO camera and meet me in Washington DC.. we'll have a mexican standoff on the White House lawn, with their cameras facing OURS THROUGH THE FENCE.. they sit on the lawn drinking lattes until they get the word that someone wants to pass some propaganda.

WELL that very same day after the hearing they made CONYERS STAND AT THE GATE, LIKE A Pizza Delivery boy, but the only difference is that Conyers had over 500,000 signatures from American people who wanted to know WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON.

I have footage I got from a pal that shows them passing bundle after bundle of signatures throught the White House gate.. it was SUPER. Brought back the 60's feel in a BIG WAY, so much PARTICIPATION.

Get off yer ass, get a camera, the camera does NOT LIE, and they afraid of them :)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

84. Colin Powell, "I'm not reading this, this is bullshit." Were they asking

Powell to lie more than he did, or less than they would have liked?

[proud patriot]

86. I couldn't have kept my cool like McGovern

Excellent job responding to bozo Mr McGovern.
I would have been so pissed at his lies I don't
think I could have remained calm.

I especially liked the "it doesn't matter what
the troops believed it matters what you believe"

Because the troops were lied to just like the
rest of us . The fact that our Soldiers were
lied to is The Worst Crime of all the Crimes
perpetrated by this cabal of Criminals who
have hijacked this nation .

[Shipwack]

103. I'm with you on that...

I was literally punching my monitor during Rumsfeld's tap dance....:argh:

I guess I need to wait a while before I upgrade to a more fragile LCD screen...

[LiberalAndProud]

87. Countdown to RR

Rumsfeld's Resignation
cannot come soon enough.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

91. Hopefully after the elections we will be singing:

Buddy you’re an old man poor man
Pleadin’ with your eyes gonna make you some peace some day

You got mud on your face
You big disgrace
Somebody better put you back in your place

We will we will rock you
We will we will rock you

[omega minimo]

92. Brilliant McGovern on NewsHour last week

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2588849

[demo dutch]

93. The hole they're digging is getting bigger and bigger!!

[bdamomma]

96. caught rummy in his lies good

that was great, rummy was heckled and the ex CIA agent grilled him, are we growing a backbone to confront these thugs, it's about time. I hope there is more to come.

[Roland99]

100. Holy Crap! That was McGovern? Did he state his name/credentials to Rummy??

[degreesofgray]

101. It's too bad this is a big deal

because the liar Dumsfeld and the rest of the liars should be called on their lies each and every day, and perhaps if the compliant corporate media had had the nerve to ask questions prior to the invasion of Iraq, it wouldn't have taken so long for people to finally stand up and ask the liars why they continually lie, lie, lie, and then lie some more.

[ngGale]

104. Yay, for Ray McGovern ...

he also did well at the DSM hearing.:loveya:

[BlueStateGirl]

106. That quote always had me scratching my head.

In Tikrit and Baghada and east and west and south and north.

Well, that's pretty freaking broad, isn't it? Covered all his bases.

[SPKrazy]

107. Damned The Internet(s)

and videotape, TIVO, etc.

[emald]

108. it would appear that lying is now a rewardable offense

It is okay to lie, in fact you will be rewarded if the lying furthers the punks itinerary. When will the US return to it's morality and put these people in prison for sedition? Punks.

[Harper_is_Bush]

109. Fantastic smackdown by McGovern. HE has THE BIGGEST BALLS!!!

[paineinthearse]

110. Wilson, Sheehan, McGovern & Bonifaz - American Patriots

From left to right, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, Cindy Sheehan, Ray McGovern and John Bonifaz at a forum on the “Downing Street Minutes” on Capitol Hill in Washington, on Thursday. (Reuters)

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=65602&d=18&m=6&y=2005

WASHINGTON, 18 June 2005 — Hear that cracking sound? It’s the shattering of once-solid congressional support for President Bush’s war on Iraq. On Thursday, a bipartisan group of congressmen, including one conservative who voted for the war in Iraq, introduced a resolution calling for initial troop withdrawal from Iraq starting Oct. 1, 2006. Walter B. Jones, R-North Carolina, the congressman who once wanted the French fries in congressional restaurants to be renamed “Freedom Fries,” now says that the United States has done all it can to help Iraq. “After 1,700 deaths over 12,000 wounded and $200 billion spent, we believe it is time to have this debate and discussion on this resolution,” said Rep. Jones, whose district is home to three military bases.

<snip>

Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., a principle organizer of the event, said the memos “establish a prima facie case of going to war under false pretenses.”

Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, pushed the envelope even farther when he said the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel, and military bases craved by administration “neo-cons” so “the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world.” McGovern added that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. “Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation,” McGovern said. “The last time I did this, the previous director of Central Intelligence called me anti-Semitic.”

more....

[lonestarnot]

111. YOU LEFT OFF COLBERT!

[paineinthearse]

113. I don't remember him testifying at the Conyers hearing.

His work is important, but these four have been at the core of the effort for years.

[paineinthearse]

114. .

self-delete - wrong location

[lonestarnot]

115. No! But he's done the best slap the piss outta him so far!

and it was by invitation only! That is the best part!

[Harper_is_Bush]

122. doing it from the audience without invitation is better. n/t

[lonestarnot]

135. Maybe, but bushitler was a captive audience in this case.

[lonestarnot]

118. hmmmmf

[Harper_is_Bush]

117. Don't sully a McGovern thread with that name.

:)

[Harper_is_Bush]

112. Recommended. All should recommend....here's why:

This man is a 27 year vet of the CIA. He took on the biggest jerk-off, egotistical, argumentative self-satisfied opponent in this administration AND HE WON!!!

He stood up and threw some serious truth into the face of this administration in a way that cannot be ignored.

[paineinthearse]

116. Ray McGovern & David Swanson on KPFK Friday 1-2PM PT

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/9958

Rumsfeld Radio on Friday May 5
Submitted by davidswanson on Thu, 2006-05-04 21:54. Media

Catch Ray McGovern and David Swanson on KPFK between 1 and 2 p.m. PT, Friday, May 5, 2006. Ray publicly grilled Rumsfeld on his lies on Thursday.

http://www.kpfk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=260&Itemid=82

[paineinthearse]

120. AP has picked up the story...kind of

Typical, shalllow, incomplete and spun coverage. Completely misses the crux of the exchange.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060505/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rumsfeld

Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst

By SHANNON McCAFFREY, Associated Press Writer
4 minutes ago

ATLANTA - Protesters repeatedly interrupted Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld during a speech Thursday and one man, a former CIA analyst, accused him of lying about Iraq prewar intelligence in an unusually vociferous display of anti-war sentiment.

"Why did you lie to get us into a war that caused these kind of casualties and was not necessary?" asked Ray McGovern, the former analyst, during a question-and-answer session.

"I did not lie," shot back Rumsfeld, who waved off security guards ready to remove McGovern from the hall at the Southern Center for International Studies.

With Iraq war support remaining low, it is not unusual for top Bush administration officials to encounter protests and hostile questions. But the outbursts Rumsfeld confronted on Thursday seemed beyond the usual.

Three protesters were escorted away by security as each interrupted Rumsfeld's speech by jumping up and shouting anti-war messages. Throughout the speech, a fourth protester stood in the middle of the room with his back to Rumsfeld in silent protest. Officials reported no arrests.

more.....

[Harper_is_Bush]

121. It's fresh...it will grow. It's pretty stunning, no denying that. n/t

[faithnotgreed]

123. surprised they even acknowledged it

kick for ray mcgovern

[ediedidcare]

124. I dropped Ray an e-mail tonight

"Hoorah for Ray" and I told him how much it ment to me.

[Harper_is_Bush]

126. Welcome to DU.

Excellent!

[ediedidcare]

161. thanks so much!

[peacetheonlyway]

127. some more info. on McGovern..

Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition/Atlanta
http://www.georgiapeace.org

CIA Whistleblower to Speak in Decatur

Thursday, May 4, 2006
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contacts:

Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst of 27 years who has now become an outspoken critic of the Bush Administration, will speak Friday evening, May 5, on “Patriotic Whistle-Blowers vs. the Bush Administration: Iraq, Iran, Torture and Domestic Spying.” The talk will begin at 7:30 p.m. at the Atlanta Friends Meetinghouse, 701 West Howard Avenue, Decatur.
McGovern served seven US presidents and routinely presented intelligence briefings at the White House. However, for the last three years he has spoken and written widely against the Bush Administration’s use of lies to gain support for an unprovoked war.
Most recently, McGovern defended Mary McCarthy, a CIA official who was fired for allegedly leaking information on the CIA’s secret torture prisons abroad. He cites the Nuremberg obligation “to do what one reasonably can to prevent war crimes like torture.”
In 2003, McGovern was a co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS), which argued that US and British leaders had fabricated intelligence to support aggression against Iraq – a view later confirmed by the Downing Street Minutes of a meeting between British intelligence and US policy-makers, which revealed that “intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” VIPS now includes more than 40 former intelligence agents from the CIA, FBI, National Security Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, Army Intelligence and other agencies.
McGovern’s talk is sponsored by the Friends Social Concerns Committee; Georgia Peace & Justice Coalition; and Veterans for Peace, chapter 125 of Greater Atlanta.
On Thursday, May 4, McGovern will receive the National Civil Liberties Award at the 2006 Georgia ACLU Bill of Rights dinner, which will begin at 7 p.m. at the Sheraton Atlanta Hotel, 165 Courtland Street.

[Voltaire99]

131. McGovern's writing is often on Counterpunch.com

...the site for those tired of do-nothing centrist politicians.

[ShortnFiery]

132. Yes, noted and point taken ...

However, I believe Ray McGovern would concur that IF some of those centrist Senators would have stood up and REFUSED TO CONFIRM the the Republican Political Hack Man, Porter Goss, as Director of the CIA, his beloved former organization would be serving The American People today instead of being gutted and seemingly open ONLY to hiring political butt boys of like mind. ;)

No, we should not quibble among ourselves as Democrats as our Constitution is being shredded, but our Democratic Senators rolling over for seemingly tummy rubs by both Goss and Alito, was to say the least, disconcerting. :(

[peacetheonlyway]

128. What you didn't see on CNN

were about 5 other peace activists screaming LIAR and other things about Rumsfeld
and many were dragged out by the police...

McGovern and the 5 others show that Atlanta has heart..

Atlanta activists were not lying down and not putting up with this crap anymore...

my friend, one of the protestors, brought her toothbrush fully prepared for being taken away to jail, and thankfully the cops only mildly bruised her.. but the worse beating she got for yelling during Rumsfeld's speech, she was physically attacked by republicans but the cops dragged her away...

remember folks.. while it seems there were stupid GOP boot lickers in the room applauding Rumsfeld and booing McGovern, there were enough protestors to completely disrupt the bulk of his speech.

bottom line, protesting is what we all should be doing from here on out......

[Miss Chybil]

130. Why are audience members allowed to snatch people's signs?

Signs aren't good. T-shirts would be better. That way, if an audience member laid hands on your shirt, or even better tried to take it from you, they'd be committing an assault. I can't believe we have to think like this in the land of the free. Did Bush do a signing statement on the First Amendment, or something? Maybe, they're just getting us used to living under the Chinese constitution.

[paparush]

134. Too Bad that the Decider has already Decidered that Rummy Stays

No matter what.

I miss my country.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. K & R.

[Pacifist Patriot]

139. Okay, I have to give Rumsfeld credit for one thing and one thing only.

"No, let him stay." when they tried to drag McGovern out. I am stunned he continued the conversation. Can't stand the man. Still believe he's a lying SOB and a key member of the criminal conspiracy controlling our government but I am stunned he insisted the McGovern be allowed to finish.

[vanlassie]

152. LET him stay? LET him stay?

EXCUSE ME???? I thought it was a "Question and Answer" period. Since when do American Citizens, INVITED to ask questions, get dragged out of the room if theyASK A QUESTION THAT SOMEBODY DOESN'T LIKE?????

[Pacifist Patriot]

157. You'll get no disagreement from me.

I find his comment steeped in irony as well. But that doesn't change the fact that I am surprised Rumsfeld stopped the dragoons from escorting McGovern out of the room. I am pleased to see that he wanted to continue the exchange. Yes, I am dismayed that someone else cut off the discussion and sickened by the applause in the room. But apparently we can't deny that Rumsfeld was going to keep talking with McGovern. ee gads, I never thought I'd be defending Mr. Aspartame on anything!

[Mister K]

141. Wow.....Now if only someone from the democratic party can

step up and do the same thing on camera....

BTW....Ray McGovern...

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[wtmusic]

144. Rummy's "not in the intelligence business"

there's an understatement

[peacetheonlyway]

150. I know some other's who are not in the intelligence business

W, Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz, Rove, Card, Bolton, Bolten, the list goes on...

they're in the 'have the police take that man away for speaking his mind' and while you're at it, bruise up that grandmother looking woman over there for speaking her mind as well...

it's disgusting how these THUGS operate...

[oc2002]

145. Even that CNN clip edited out the begining of the exchange,

So much of accuracy in reporting at CNN.

The first time I saw this, it had the McGovern starting out by introducing who he was, his experience and the important framing his question before calling Rumy out as a liar.

That is totaly gone from that clip, which is what the MSM is running with.

shamefull.

[rodeodance]

148. Here is an interview he did with Zahn last evening (after the day event)

ri May-05-06 07:48 AM
Original message
Ex-CIA analyst: Rumsfeld 'should have owned up'

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/04/cnna.mcgovern /

Ex-CIA analyst: Rumsfeld 'should have owned up'
'It's a matter of telling the truth,' man says after Iraq questioning

Friday, May 5, 2006; Posted: 7:38 a.m. EDT (11:38 GMT)

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Hecklers repeatedly interrupted a speech Thursday in Atlanta by Donald Rumsfeld, and a former CIA analyst in a question-and-answer session accused the defense secretary of lying about Iraq prewar intelligence.

Rumsfeld denied lying and defended the basis for his claims about weapons of mass destruction and links between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

CNN anchor Paula Zahn spoke hours later with the former analyst, Ray McGovern, a member of a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity that has been critical of the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war.

ZAHN: Did you go to this speech today with the intent of challenging Secretary Rumsfeld?

MCGOVERN: I had no predetermined objectives. I just wanted to see what he had to say. But I did get very motivated when the first lady was ejected ... from the crowd....

[Supersedeas]

147. a kick for courage

[peacetheonlyway]

149. Full Report on Protestor McGovern Mentions, Woman Who was Hurt and Pulled

out by the police

Rumsfeld Protester Injured, Gives Insider Account
By Matthew Cardinale, Editor and National Correspondent, Atlanta Progressive News (May 04, 2006)

(APN) ATLANTA – Protester Gloria Tatum, 62, was injured at a protest against Donald Rumsfeld, US Secretary of Defense, today, from when she was shouting at Rumsfeld, and has a bruise on her back, Tatum says. The notorious local activist gave her first hand account of the heckling of Rummy to Atlanta Progressive News.

“I had a bruise and I thought someone hit at me from me from behind. When I look at the tape, the woman was pulling me down, but I don’t know if she was in the crowd or with security. At the time, it felt I had been hit from behind and I do have a bruise on my body. It sure felt like someone hit me. Someone said that they saw a woman hitting me, I think Wendy said that. Maybe I just got injured being drug out,” of the auditorium, she said.

She didn’t file a police report because she said it all happened very fast and she was worried about getting arrested herself for shouting at Rumsfeld.

About 10 activists from the peace community were inside the auditorium where Rumsfeld had come to speak to an audience of 400, Tatum said, adding that there were an additional 30 outside. The audience consisted of mostly “very elderly, White, prosperous people,” she said.

“The majority of people were Republicans who were supporters of Bush and his policy and supporters of Rumsfeld,” Tatum said.

The activists represented the Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition, World Can’t Wait, and the International Action Center, among other groups.

Rumself sounded “defensive against someone with authority , a CIA person, someone he can’t lied to, someone who calls him on it. Someone he couldn’t just flippantly lie to. Of course he said he’s not lying, but I’ve read several places were the Niger uranium that they talked about, they got that from someone named Curveball that the CIA told them that that information wasn’t credible and they used it anyway,” Tatum told Atlanta Progressive News.

“So it’s not so much they got bad intelligence, the Bush administration,” Tatum explained of her protest.

“It’s that they chose intelligence that fit their policy. The Downing Street Memos state that they were going to do that and they did that. Some of the intelligence came from some rightwing graduate student thesis paper. They came from sources that weren’t credible that they were told they weren’t credible but they used it anyway because they fit their policy,” Tatum said.

“I don’t know why the news media didn’t talk about this,” Tatum said.

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern questioned Rumsfeld at length during the unusual public question and answer session. McGovern asked Rumsfeld why he lied to the American people about weapons of mass destruction and Rumsfeld said he didn’t lie, CNN clips show.

“Well, if he’s saying that he’s a psychopath, that he doesn’t know the difference between truth and lies, then I don’t know what to think of that. If he tells a lie and he thinks it’s the truth. Does he not know they difference between a lie and the truth?” Tatum remarked.

McGovern’s exchange with Rumsfeld was fascinating.

Rumsfeld started talking about how Colin Powell and President Bush said Iraq had WMDs and how the troops believed it. So, implicitly, it’s not a lie if you believe it?

McGovern asked about Rumsfeld saying he knew where the weapons were. Rumsfeld first denied saying that, but the quote has been confirmed.

McGovern asked about the purported tie between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Rumsfeld replied that Al- Zarqawi had been in Iraq. McGovern stated he had only been in a desolate area in the north and only went to Baghdad once to visit a hospital.

“Well, this is the first time to my knowledge in Atlanta that the public has been able to buy tickets and enter one of the events, when Bush or Cheney or someone like that is in town,” Tatum told Atlanta Progressive News.

“Normally it is by invitation only. So only people who give money to the Republican party and are hardline supporters of Bush,” Tatum said.

“This is what happened when they opened it up to the public and the people who have been locked out for the past few years get in,” Tatum said.

The tickets cost $40.00, Tatum said.

“I got mine about 2 weeks in advance, the minute I heard about it. I mean, I couldn’t believe they were going to let non-Republicans in,” Tatum said.

“The Republican crowd, they were very pro-Rumsfeld. They don’t want to hear what other people have to say. They kept telling us to shut up. One man told me as I was leaving, he said, you go home and stay at home ” Tatum recalled.

“The media coverage has been unbelievable. I never expected this. I feel like a genie has been let out of the bottle or something. It’s taken on a life of its own. Normally, we work so hard to do stuff and we get such limited coverage,” Tatum said.

“I mean, like the April first march, we worked 4 to 5 months on that, most of the coverage was really good, and the AJC said only a couple hundred people were there and they mostly interviewed this Rightwing woman from Marietta. She didn’t do any of the work and she got most of the coverage,” Tatum said.

“Hopefully, what comes out of this, the media starts talking about, well, what about the prewar intelligence? Are they saying the prewar intelligence wasn’t credible? I hope that’s where the debate starts going,” Tatum said.

“I think they all lied, I think they deliberately lied,” Tatum said. “If we all believe it, it must be true. If we all say it, and we all say it enough, and we all believe it, it must be true,” Tatum said of Rumsfeld’s insistence he didn’t lie.

“I heard a mother of a soldier who said, Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9/11. And I feel bad for them . And I support the soldiers, but I feel heartbroken that they believe this, I want them to get the truth,” Tatum told Atlanta Progressive News.

“I screamed, You lied to the American public You lied about Weapons of Mass Destruction. You lied about Iraq having a nuclear program. You lied about Iraq having ties to Al-Qaeda. You lied about Iraq oil paying for the war. And the CIA told you that these were not credible stories but you chose to cherry pick intelligence...” Tatum recalled.

“I was out in the hall at that point. Above the roar of the boos,” she said.

“They didn’t call on us, we stood up and interrupted Rumsfeld,” she said.

“He was interrupted three times by people. One was accusing him of war crimes and torture. Another person stood there with his back to Rumsfeld and stood there the entire time with his back to him. Every 10 minutes he was interrupted. It was about an hour,” Tatum said.

“The police told me to leave or they would put me in jail. They allowed me to leave,” Tatum said.

“I had my toothbrush. I had some socks, so my feet wouldn’t get cold. I was planning on going to jail. And I was very happy when they didn’t ,” she said.

“I hope that the discussion in this country is going to start about prewar intelligence,” Tatum said.

About the author:

Matthew Cardinale is the Editor of Atlanta Progressive News and may be reached at [e-mail]

Syndication policy:

This article may be reprinted in full at no cost where Atlanta Progressive News is credited.

[Stand and Fight]

154. Post this as it's own thread, please.

Really good information in there. If you don't want to post it, PM me and I will be happy to do so. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, and welcome to DU!

[Stand and Fight]

155. Dissent is patriotism. 'Nuff Said. n/t

[wake.up.america]

156. Please correct me, if I am wrong. The former CIA agent called...

Rummy a liar. The former agent was able to back his claim.

Many of those applauded Rummmy despite evidence to contrary to Rumsfeld claim he did not lie.


I cannot tell you how much this sickens me.

Very little coverage in the press.

THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS!!!!!!

[Stand and Fight]

160. It is very sickening... And your screen name should be screamed!

Wake up, America! It is time to end the slumber and wake up -- the whole damn house is on fire around us!

[paineinthearse]

158. Swanson: WaPo Blogger Makes Laughable Attempt to Defend Rumsfeld

From: "David Swanson"
To:
Subject: Rumsfeld v McGovern
Date: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:15:22 AM

Washington Post Blogger Makes Laughable Attempt to Defend Rumsfeld Against McGovern

By David Swanson



WaPo's William Arkinhas posted a blog with the headline "Rumsfeld Didn't Lie, But He Should Still Go."

He quotes Rumsfeld's exchange with Ray McGovern and then writes: "If the issue here is Saddam Hussein's connection to al Qaeda and his involvement in 9/11, to the 'bulletproof' evidence the administration claimed, and more important for America, to the likelihood that Saddam would have ever shared any WMD with terrorists -- the true strategic assumption behind the Iraq war and the justification for our entire WMD obsessed foreign policy today -- McGovern scored."



No he did not, because this was not a basketball game. This was a rare instance of someone acting as a reporter and questioning a member of the gang that lied this country into an aggressive war. And it was not "the adminitsration" that made those claims. It was individual people, including Rumsfeld.

"But if the issue is Zarqawi, and a spooked and reeling Bush administration worrying that they just don't really know what's going on in places like Iraq, that they can't rely on the great CIA, and that they can't predict what will happen, Rumsfeld scored."

Again, this was not a basketball game. No scoring. Rumsfeld not only did not rely on the CIA. He created his own "intelligence" operation in the Pentagon called the Office of Special Plans. Has the Washington Post heard about this?

"Yesterday the Secretary of Defense was able to say without equivocation and hesitation that 'it appears there were not weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, but that is not the headline. Certainly we remember not too long ago administration officials saying that WMD were still to be found, that it's not over 'til it's over."

Ponder for a moment the frame of mind of someone so unconcerned with the emergence of facts but obsessed with the statements of people in power that he imagines it is news that Rumsfeld admitted what the whole damn world knows. Amazing. Arkin has not said anything to suggest that Rumsfeld didn't lie, but he has explained the second half of his headline. Rumsfeld should go, he clearly thinks, because some powerful people have said so. What other reason could there be for anything to happen?

"In the end it comes down to McGovern's question: Why did you lie, not did you."

It does? OK, what's the answer? To either question. Did he lie? And if so, why?

"A better question for McGovern, once he was given a chance to talk, once he was standing their on television, once he had Rumsfeld captive, would have been: Mr. Secretary, do you now see that you or the administration were wrong about Iraq's WMD or the characterization of Iraq as imminent threat?"

So, rather than answering Ray's question which "it comes down to," Arkin is fantasizing about how much nicer it would have been had he asked a softball and let Rummy smash it out of the park.

"I know that Rumsfeld could have slipped away with some political answer. It is still a better question."

Why is it?

"I imagine McGovern's goal yesterday was to get on the evening news. It was a spectacle, and McGovern wasn't really seeking an answer to any question: he already had the answers; he was just seeking to expose."

Why imagine these things? You could ask Ray. Pick up the phone and call him. He might have some actual insight into what he was trying to do.

"The protestors screeching impeachment and 'lying' yesterday, as well as McGovern, can't accept that there is a difference between being wrong and deceiving."

They can't? Have you asked them? And, by the way, what is your definition of screeching? Rumsfeld was not wrong. Rumsfeld was deceiving. How do we know this? It's not because Rumsfeld has admitted it, and therefore it's not for any reason you'll ever accept. It's because of the enormous quantity of evidence that Rumsfeld (the man who asked Richard Clarke on September 12, 2001, to find a way to attack Iraq) was bent on war with Iraq no matter what. The plans are laid out publicly by the Project for a New American Century. Each claim that Rumsfeld promoted, from the ties to 9-11 to the aluminum tubes to the niger uranium to the chemical and biological weapons was known by him to be false. See www.afterdowningstreet.org

This is a man who claims to be promoting freedom but has authorized detention without charge and torture. This is a man who claims to be helping the Iraqis, but has used napalm, depleted uranium, and white phosphorous on them as part of their liberation.

Does it not abuse the English language at this point to even entertain the possibility that "Rumsfeld didn't lie"?

Arkin goes on:

"They are so stuck in a mode of accusation and certainty they don't really think there is any point in political dialogue with the administration. Bush is Hitler, and with that he, nor Rumsfeld, deserves human courtesy. Human courtesy would mean understanding fallibility, fear, pride, the drive of false certainty in office. I'm not asking anyone to accept the war or the dominant national security orthodoxy, which I abhor."

Oh, of course, and it shows, it really does.

"I just don't want the only answer to be pulling a lever every four years; there are alternatives, even politicians and the administration learns. We are here as citizens to teach and guide them."

And to impeach them and remove them from office. May I mail you a copy of the US Constitution?

"In the end, my respect for the Secretary went up when he said, responding to another protester that accusations of lying are 'so wrong, so unfair and so destructive.'"

And that's even true, when the person accused HAS NOT BEEN LYING.

"My guess is that the impact of the confrontation won't be for Donald Rumsfeld to seek forgiveness. More likely, the Secretary will just become ever more careful to say nothing at the podium or in interviews in the future."

So, when a citizen challenges a cabinet secretary who has nothing to hide, the result is that our noble public servant then hides his worthy work from us. So, the proper behavior would be to obey, and then the facts would all come out? Suddenly I understand how the Washington Post operates.

"The best reason for Donald Rumsfeld to step down as Secretary is that he has become the debate, a lightening rod who can no longer continue to perform this important duty. America needs someone in charge of the military who can give candid answers without fear of having yesterday's candid answers thrown back in their face. America also needs to give its leaders a chance to be wrong. The implications such intolerance to error is to push human beings up against the wall, a place where there is no good outcome."

So he's right, but should resign because we barbarians think he's a lying criminal. I'm sorry. If he had an ounce of honesty in him and were in any way wrongly accused, I would advocate for him remaining. Arkin, on the other hand, has just openly confessed to writing columns without content. There is not a word here on the topic of whether Rumsfeld lied. Arkin should resign immediately.

[Pierzin]

162. LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!!!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: