The myth that illegals are bringing down wages for all.

[Sapere aude]

There are illegals working for substandard wages, no doubt. But the current drive to increase union membership is with Hispanics in the service industry. They are also fighting for the living wage which is winning in cities all across the land. Anglos are not the ones swelling the union ranks. These unions are increasing the wage scales and increasing benefits which as in the past accrues to all.

The ability of Hispanics to form mass demonstrations should show that the social justice causes they fight for will benefit all working people.

On Edit,

The service union increases are due largely to illegal immigrants who took low pay jobs in the service industry and have organized and fought and won the battle for a living wage and better benefits. This also happened in the fields with the United Farm Workers Union.

[Minnesota Libra]

1. Here we go again nt

[corporate_mike]

77. It's basic supply/demand

The higher the supply of workers willing to work for less, the lower wages will be.

[w4rma]

2. Not all hispanics are illegal. You're pretty insulting to hispanics, imho.

I think you need to rethink your logic.

[mitchtv]

3. Nor, are all illegals Latino

They are good for the unions, however. The poster had that part right.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. But it is the repubs that are conflating illegals with hispanics,

and if Hispanics are the moving force behind a resurgent union movement, it is understandable why the repubs are suddenly so virulent against illegals.

It is the EMPLOYERS that are driving wages down, not the WORKERS.

[DainBramaged]

6. "It is the EMPLOYERS that are driving wages down,"

I should have added that caveat to my reply, great point, we all forget that too often.

[Ian David]

32. Corporations and employers will do ANYTHING to drive wages down...

even if they have to resort to the illegal hiring of undocumented aliens.

You know what will happen if you send 12 million undocumented aliens home?

The factories in where they're making $3.00/hour will close-down and they'll outsource all those jobs to factories where those very same workers (and their children) will make $0.30/hour. And they won't be able to join a Union.

Do you know why they keep coming here for jobs?

Because American corporations depress wages in their countries even more than those same companies do here.

There are no good-paying jobs in their countries because of American corporate and economic policies.

We open factories and pay $0.30 / hour in foreign countries, and then we complain when workers from those countries sneak into ours to make $3.00 /hour.

The O.P. is right. This is about corporations driving down wages and busting Unions.

There will be no winners or losers in this. Nobody will win this. Nobody can win this. It's a non-zero sum game, but one that has been twisted past the point of recovery.

We have been racing to the bottom and destroyed Capitalism in the process.

[Seabiscuit]

48. More specifically, Repukes conflate illegals with Mexicans - hate-mongerin

[lastliberalintexas]

81. Thank you

Shit, from the OP you'd think that any brown skinned person was here illegally. :eyes:


For the OP- Illegal immigrants of all races or nationalities do help employers drive wages down by the very fact that they are here illegally. They have no recourse against an employer who is abusive, who forces them to work in slave labor conditions for less than a decent wage (or even less than minimum) *because they are here illegally*. If they report the employer, they risk deportation. So they put up with the abuse and the employer gets away with paying someone far less than what someone who is here legally would demand.

Some would say that the solution to that is open borders, with which I disagree. The basic tenets of economics tell you that an oversupply of labor will drive wages down for all.

How about we go after the employers/Corporate America and then reform our policies towards the underdeveloped world instead?

[DainBramaged]

4. Uh excuse me

on Monday, the Port of Los Angeles came to a stand still. Why you might ask? Because 90% or the truck drivers were absent. By hiring them, real American or legal immigrants have lost well paying jobs to people willing to work for far less than "local wages".




Have a nice day.

[Sapere aude]

10. The trucking industry pays practically the same wages to all drivers.

There is a demand for drivers with clean DMV records and a safe driving record. Because of this trucking companies compete for drivers. Almost all drivers are paid around $42,000 per year.

Please look on the rear of the next trailer you pass for the add for drivers wanted. No one is taking the jobs away from anyone here.

By the way, I use to be a controller for a trucking company. If you have a clean DMV and can pay for a driving course, you can be a truck driver.

[DainBramaged]

13. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit

Show me proof of this, and how come what I wrote was reported on CNN and other news sources. Do you think for one second an illegal earning $42,000 would skip work knowing he may lose his job to an American truck driver?

And they SURE as shit ain't joining the Teamsters, who lost tens of thousands jobs to illegals and the greed of the owners.

[Sapere aude]

18. The fact that people walked of the job does not prove your point.

There are extremely tight laws that govern the trucking industry. You can't just buy a truck and hire an illegal for substandard wages and operate a trucking company.

Please look into it. There are laws which govern who can drive, how many hours they can drive, the maintenance on the vehicles, the records that must be kept.

[DainBramaged]

25. LaLaLaLaLaLa

[Ms. Clio]

37. how old are you?

seriously

[Seabiscuit]

49. That's a question

that has always popped into my mind while reading Brain Damaged's posts.

[Ms. Clio]

58. I guess I must have managed to miss most up them up to now

good lord.

[DainBramaged]

53. This thread is propaganda and specifically for getting

sympathy for the plight of illegals. My age is not important here, but what is important is that if the Mexican government had one iota of concern for their citizens, no one would be discussing this. Oh, and once again, with feeling;

[Ms. Clio]

57. thanks for proving my point

your nick is highly appropriate.

[DainBramaged]

59. And your point was? Pointless.

Don't lecture me on the age appropriateness of my replies. I'll reply as I feel fit.

[Ms. Clio]

61. don't worry

I think your "replies" speak for themselves.

[DainBramaged]

64. Bug someone else, consider yourself ignored

Stop your bullshit telling people how they should respond or react. If you don't like it, put my wrinkled old ass on ignore too.


Bite me.

[Ms. Clio]

65. just make sure you do it

BTW that's a personal attack, old one.

[U4ikLefty]

66. I'm sorry...but you miserably failed at a backhanded insult.

Insert quater & try again!!!

[Ms. Clio]

67. yawn n/t

[U4ikLefty]

68. Yawn just about describes your attempt at "discourse"...lol

Maybe you should try cogent arguments instead of innuendos.

[johnaries]

35. No, he's correct. Truck drivers make quite good salaries.

And there is a huge demand for them, especially OTR (Over The Road; long haul) drivers. The turn over is huge. Drivers burn out quickly.

[B Calm]

51. OTR drivers make good money, but then if you count all hrs

they spend on the job, they make WAY LESS than minimum wage! Hourly local drivers make better money if they're in a union shop than the ones who are not.

I got off over the road two years ago. I was making over 50 thousand a year. Now I have a local driving job, 8 hours a day making just a little over 12 dollars an hour. Pretty pathetic pay for skilled labor, but that's the sacrifice I had to make to be home with my family.

[Sapere aude]

55. I feel for all of the OTR drivers. I was the one in our company that

got their pay to them on the road and had money on their cards so they could get fuel and a meal and a shower. They had to call me at home when they were stuck somewhere. I was always willing to help out any time of the day or night.

[ComerPerro]

76. What makes you think companies that hire illegals for low pay

will pay American citizens any better?

Why would they?

[nosmokes]

7. undocumented workers aren't gonna join a union

and i refuse to call any human being illegal. how can a person be illegal? it's illegal to be human now? as much as it galls me to say it, dimson's temp work visa is not bad idea as it would allow for these folks to join unions and collect social security which they don't now, and be eligible for workers comp and state disability and all the rest that working off the books makes unavailable to them.

[Cleita]

14. I do believe that giving the immigrants who want to work

work permits will go a long way into getting them mainstreamed. They won't be afraid to come out in the open then if they are underpaid or abused. The will be free to join unions. It's a win, win for both labor camps. I think raising the immigration quotas to meet the labor demands would be a workable solution.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

34. You are right. Human beings cant be illegal

But they can be criminals..such as when they break the law daily by using falsified documents, and breaking the law during entry.

In light of your point of illegal immigrant being the wrong term, I'll just refer to them as CRIMINAL IMMIGRANTS from now on.

thanks for pointing this out.

[Cleita]

38. Felonies are criminal you know murder, rape burglary.

Working without proper documents is a misdemeanor for both the employer and the worker. I suppose you never ran a red light, smoked in a non-smoking area or parked your car illegally, all misdemeanors. If you want working criminalized then you'd better worry about all those other midemeanors that could become felonies because a bad precedent has been set.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

69. Its true that I break the speed limit

Most of us do in fact. If you want to call me a criminal driver thats fine, I don't mind.

Few of us however, spend their every single moment breaking the law as criminal immigrants do.

I like this term. Criminal immigrants. Much more accurate than "illegal immigrant"

[Cleita]

73. I'm not the one that's yelling criminal.

If you get your definition then everyone who goes to work is a criminal. That's what you want to criminalize working at a job.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

79. I agree. You are ignoring the crimes.

But not everyone will turn a blind eye.


Furthermore working a job is not a criminal act. I bet we even agree on that.

Breaking immigration laws is a criminal act.

Every moment a criminal immigrant spends in America they are breaking the law. Awake or Asleep.

If they forge official documents to obtain employement, thats yet another crime.

If they forge official documents and use someone else's social security number, thats Identity theft. thats another crime.

Criminal Immigrant. descriptive and accurate.

[Speed8098]

71. You certainly aren't a police officer

And neither am I, but I do know that running a red light is NOT a misdemeanor, it is a violation, as is illegally parking your car and smoking in a non smoking area.

Main Entry: mis·de·mean·or
Pronunciation: "mis-di-'mE-n&r
Function: noun
: a crime that carries a less severe punishment than a felony; specifically : a crime punishable by a fine and by a term of imprisonment not to be served in a penitentiary and not to exceed one year


Traffic Violation

A traffic violation is an offense where the penalty is a fine.



(on edit: fixed typo)

[Cleita]

74. Well, potatoes, potahtos.

So happy to have the spelling and grammar police after me again when they find they don't have a rational answer to the real issue.

Going to work every day is not a crime because it's not a felony. If you want to make it so then welcome to our new totalitarian police state. What else will become a felony, smoking in public?

We have Bush in power today because of sentiments like this. The hate radio talk show hosts paved the way for Bush's ascent to power by appealing to the basest xenophobias in their listeners and they are doing it again.

[Speed8098]

80. Let's be clear.

Going to work every day is not a crime because it's not a felony. If you want to make it so then welcome to our new totalitarian police state.

Stop talking nonsense. Nobody is saying it should be a crime to go to work.

We have Bush in power today because of sentiments like this.

HELLLLLOOOO, where have YOU been?
* is in power because the USSC installed him there in 00 and Diebold kept him there in 04.

So happy to have the spelling and grammar police after me again when they find they don't have a rational answer to the real issue.

This is the post I replied to:
Working without proper documents is a misdemeanor for both the employer and the worker. I suppose you never ran a red light, smoked in a non-smoking area or parked your car illegally, all misdemeanors. If you want working criminalized then you'd better worry about all those other midemeanors that could become felonies because a bad precedent has been set.

You were wrong in your description of a misdemeanor, and besides that I don't see where you are trying to debate. What's your point?


Are you trying to compare running a red light to coming into the country illegally, obtaining false social security numbers, sending the bulk of your pay back to where you came from, using the emergency room as your private doctor so you don't have to pay? Or maybe you think smoking in a non-smoking area is akin to having a child while you are here so you have an anchor that keeps you here and let's you take welfare money from someone who actually needs it, or maybe you think parking illegally is the same as being arrogant enough to complain about the unfair wages you receive BECAUSE YOU ARE HERE ILLEGALLY?

If those are the points you want to debate, let's debate. If all you want to do is whine, then......
well, you know what I mean.

BTW, I'm a member of the Democratic Party for my entire life(I'm 50 in December) and I am damn proud of it, so be very careful when you accuse me of helping * gain power. This isn't one of your fantasy novels.

[flamin lib]

8. Our unions are so badly damaged from without and within that

fixed dyslexic spelling error Dyslexics Untie!!!

they are largely useless as a political entity. Shame on us and shame on them.

With blue collar jobs going overseas and states with "right to work" laws (meaning right to get fired for showing up 'cause I feel like it) their strength is sorely diminished.

The Unions need to court the new downtrodden, the white collar worker. The mail clerk, the legal assistant, the receptionist and the people who make big business function.

If every receptionist walked off the job today every office in America would be non functional. Not a single corner office ass hole knows how to answer his/her own phone.

Let 'em send their own damn faxes for a day or two.

[Ms. Clio]

31. I love this idea

every receptionist, secretary, and administrative assistant -- it would bring the entire business world to its knees! :D

[Cleita]

39. Yes, we need to unionize every worker in America.

More importantly, we need to repeal the Taft-Hartley Act which allows open union shops, not a good idea and of course the NAFTA treaty, which allows corporations to ship our jobs overseas. Then you would see a change.

[zanne]

9. The "Guest Worker" program will kill unions once and for all....

Anybody who doesn't understand that is either naive or a corporate boss.

[Cleita]

17. It's convenient to blame others for the problems that need

a solution within each organization. Unions need to put their efforts into getting the laws revoked that took the muscle out of the unions. The big bugaboo is the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947, which was passed by a Republican Congress even after Harry Truman had vetoed it. It needs to be revoked along with a lot of other Repuke legislation that was passed even though the majority of the American people weren't in favor of them.

I personally would love to make most of the principles that the Republican Party stands by illegal. Most of them are pretty unAmerican and in violation of human rights, IMHO. Of course that will never happen.

[TahitiNut]

22. Treating human labor as a commodity is already (technically) illegal.

That sure hasn't stopped Property (corporations) from 'owning' and dealing in a market for human labor, though. :eyes:

[Cleita]

27. Funny I was always a commodity when I worked.

They owned me for those hours and if I didn't deliver, I was replaced. What's the difference?

[TahitiNut]

20. Corporations who currently control health care insurance ...

... will control whether 'guest workers' will, when they lose their jobs, be deported - and they can't even vote for a politician who'd change this!!

When was it we gave the "plantation workers" the vote? In the late 1860's? The neo-plantationists are going back to antebellum economics.

[Cleita]

33. So you seem to like how things are now

with an underclass of people having no rights whatsoever. I don't like the Republican solution to this because everything they touch turns into money for them and straw for everyone else. However, ignoring a demographic of workers because you don't want them to exist seems a little head in the sand to me.

[TahitiNut]

45. I don't know what could possibly give anyone the impression I like ...

... "how things are now." I detest the power corporations are wielding over labor. I detest the fact that workers are only compensated by corporations (in the US), for about 1/3rd of the value of their labor. I detest the fact that corporations can fire someone for smoking off the job. I detest the fact that corporations have the monopoly on health care, both in insuring and providing. I detest the fact that corporations treat human labor as a commodity. I detest the fact that corporations can own corporations, creating Byzantine mazes and complex multinational shell games. (Enron was more than 500 shell corporations.) The legal fiction of a 'corporation' is nothing but a complex legal fiction of a vast array of entitlements for the very wealthy - from investment banking to janitorial services.

It is that same corporatism that is largely responsible for the appalling economic (and political) conditions in Mexico, conditions which create a socioeconomic gradient leading to the further deterioration of economic justice in both nations.

[Cleita]

46. So what do we do about it?

All we can do is take to the streets, like many have been doing and not criticize them for waving flags and singing in a foreign language. They are trying to make change. We need to join them and add our grievances to theirs. We don't have the law on our side anymore but we do have the power of the mob. We need to scare those corporations and our leaders into making change.

Picking on each other is what they want. It takes the spotlight away from them. Although I don't work anymore, I certainly empathize with anyone who ever had to put in their days work and live paycheck to paycheck. I still live paycheck to paycheck but now it's called Social Security.

Think of it we do have the power of the mob. Instead of the Minutemen marching on Washington they should be joining with the immigrants for worker's rights on both sides of the border and the world at large. The bigger the mob gets and the more united it gets, the more scared they get.

I'm not advocating violence but Ghandi had a point and he was effective in mobilizing the power of the mob.

[Vinnie From Indy]

11. Illegal aliens are just part of the problem

There is no doubt in my mind that this massive influx of workers willing to work for substandard wages is killing the American work force. You can see it all over Indiana as well. That coupled with outsourcing and union busting make addressing this problem vitally important.

[Cleita]

12. Yes, and the price of food didn't go up.

If all the immigrants are sent back to Mexico and there is no one to work during the harvests, then the crops will rot in the fields because of the scarcity of labor. You will end up paying more for your food because of the scarcity not because of higher labor costs.

Maybe agri-businesses might be planning this. It would make for leaner operations and better profits. It's something to think about. Less food, but more expensive food that many on the lower income scales won't be able to afford.

[DainBramaged]

15. I can't believe you justify sub-standard wages for cheap food

Food is absurdly priced, give me a break. And if it means the workforce shifts to better wages for Americans, let the chips fall. I'll sacrifice lettuce for American jobs.

[Cleita]

19. Okay, let me give you some figures.

In my area grape pickers get $10 to $12 an hour and medical benefits. The price of your wine or your lettuce if you will (also grown here) has not gone up because of the unionization of farm labor twenty years ago, however it's going up now because the gas to get it to you has hit an all time high.

[DainBramaged]

23. Figures for what? Legal workers or illegals?

NO farmer pays medical benefits to seasonal workers. Again, lets see the work contract. The Gap pays $9 an hour here to sell clothes part time. A farm laborer who breaks his back 10 or more hours a day should be paid twice what you claim.

Stop now, it's not worth it.

[Cleita]

26. The ones who hire unionized workers do.

They have to have worker's comp. as well, sanitation facilities and drinking water available too. Yes, they should get more money, but this is what they can get and it's better than getting paid by the crate, non-union, and that gets the workers a couple of dollars an hour if they are fast.

[TahitiNut]

30. Farm labor is currently less than 6% of the retail cost of produce.

:shrug: Thus, a 100% increase in pay would, if the only increase, be merely a 6% increase in the retail cost.

[Cleita]

36. I've never seen labor drive the retail cost of a commodity up.

Scarcity drives the price up and competition drives it down but labor doesn't seem to affect it much at all. This is trotted out everytime a raise in the minimum wage is proposed and yet prices are little affected. When my husband had his restaurant we went through three minimum wage increases and only one price increase in ten years. So go figure.

Yet, we didn't go broke or have to become uncompetitive. What drove us out of the business was a new lease from our greedy landlord that we would have been fools to sign. That would have broken the bank not increases in wages.

[Sapere aude]

16. The fields would be mechanized if there were not enough human labor.

Most of the farm workers are provided to the farmers by labor contractors. The farms rarely have field hand employees. The labor contractor trains the workers, supplies the tools, pays for the workers comp and payroll taxes. The farms pay a percentage over the labor contractor's cost. I know this because I worked for one of the largest labor contractors in the San Joaquin Valley.

By the way, we would hire anyone with documents no matter what their nationality. We could not tell which documents were legal and which were counterfeit. Very rarely did an Anglo apply to work in the fields even though the jobs were available to them.

[DainBramaged]

21. I can't believe you think we are idiots

This quote is as absurd as Wal_Mart denying they hired illegals at sub-standard wages through contractors and knew nothing about the practice.


"The labor contractor trains the workers, supplies the tools, pays for the workers comp and payroll taxes. The farms pay a percentage over the labor contractor's cost. I know this because I worked for one of the largest labor contractors in the San Joaquin Valley. "


Stop, it doesn't wash here. All I see here is anti-Union rhetoric, period.

[Sapere aude]

28. Listen, I don't think you are an idiot. I'm telling you the truth.

You can hold on to what ever beliefs you want and I am sure you will. I am amazed at the amount of prejudices held by people on the left. I haven't been here that long but it is obvious that what I read in a piece by a conservative writer is true. People on the left are not much different than people on the right when it comes to making up facts to support their belief systems.

[Cleita]

29. Anti-union? Yes the employers are, not the workers.

Not everyone has a union available to them. I worked most of my life as an office worker and the only time I had a union available to me was at the telephone company, which I joined in a heartbeat.

[Cleita]

24. I agree with you there. Very few Anglos apply for those jobs.

I worked in the restaurant industry in Los Angeles. We were supposed to get documents but like you said it was too hard to tell. No one worried much about it anyway. All the good jobs like serving, bartending and the chefs (often illegal too but European) went to Anglos. The rest of the work went to the Latinos, but they did get paid minimum wage, paid taxes and often had medical if they wanted to pay for it.

I knew of cases where gardners household domestics worked for substandard wages and under the table, but it wasn't the majority of the immigrant labor.

[Speed8098]

72. That's bull and you know it

If all the immigrants are sent back to Mexico and there is no one to work during the harvests, then the crops will rot in the fields because of the scarcity of labor.

That's what the right keeps saying, but it's pure bs. There are plenty of "Americans" that will pick those crops for the money that the migrants are making.

Back in the 70's I bummed around Florida while I was "finding myself..lol" and in order to eat while I enjoyed the carefree life I would sometimes pick fruit to survive. There were many smaller orchards that hired most any walk-on for the day, but the larger orchards had the migrants that came every year like clockwork and if you weren't part of that group, you didn't get work with that particular orchard.

That said, even in the 70's, if I was motivated and worked hard I could make $100.00 per day picking.



There is no such thing as a job an "American" won't do and I'm sick and tired of people saying there is.

I am all for legal immigration. I am against illegal immigration.

[leftstreet]

40. WOW! All Hispanics are undocumented? I didn't know that!

THIS IS HUGH!!!!111111111

:eyes:

You're not helping your cause here.

[Sapere aude]

41. Who said that? And it isn't my cause.

If you are speaking to me, so far no one has given any real hard facts to disprove what I have said.

[leftstreet]

43. Read your OP

You shift neatly from "illegal" workers to the ability of "Hispanics" to organize.

:eyes:

Unless Americans were directly impacted by the issue of undocumented workers, they were largely apathetic and uniformed before the first rallies.

But like most movements the cause of undocumented workers has been hijacked by special interests, eager to drown them out and confuse and irritate American voters before they have a chance to get informed.

[nonconformist]

42. Paul Krugman disagrees with you. nt

[sweetheart]

44. All founded on our fear of economic uncertainty

How will i pay the rent next month, next year. How will
i pay for the kids schooling, how will i pay for the
heat, the medical bills, when i'm unable to earn a living
wage... from such a POV, the whole immigration debate is
a luxury of political chatrooms... working 2 jobs one has
no time to do that... especially service jobs that don't
involve internet terminals. People are more deeply concerned
about not falling off the economic hamster wheel, running
faster and faster to prove that 104324393 rotations are possible
in a hamster-hour.

People are been abused by the state, it has been a harsh
period of a hateful leader and hateful men, blazing hate on
every channel. The demos can win this immigration debate by
being very engaged with the emotive concern of jobs and a living wage.

Then people are willing to take all sorts of risks
to earn a wage, like drugs dealing and theft, it is not fair to
anyone to earn a wage below legal living expectations... then the
person must use the grey/black economy to fill the gap.. and the
system creates its own externality of more poverty.

The prison state is costing us all a fortune. Ending the
drugs war is the solution in this, the strategic solution to
find the cash for living wages and public medical and
to remove the border smuggling problem.

[Cleita]

47. Thanks.

A very good rant and something to think about.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. For 24% of the population, it's not myth.

http://cis.org/articles/1998/wagestudy/wages.pdf

[Sapere aude]

54. I know you won't like this but, the second generation of illegals

become higher wage earners then the lower skilled domestic workers. The children of immigrants move out of the unskilled labor force while many of the children of domestic workers stay in the unskilled labor force.

My thought is that most people can do something about being unskilled labor and the immigrants do that. They are more industrious than a lot of us which is something we should welcome.

Should we keep a class of people out of the country because they are more industrious than we are? And most of them speak more languages than we do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Your argument is no less racist...

... than the argument that immigrants should be kept out because of the higher crime rate.

Particularly so in the absence of any evidence indicating that immigrants as a group are more likely to raise productive children than citizens are.

The bottom line is yes, "WE" should not embrace any policies which degrade "OUR" general welfare. It matters little that how linguistically skilled the people are to whom our welfare would be bestowed.

[JVS]

75. I think you should put the bottom line as an OP somewhere!

The fact that a state is responsible for the general welfare of its citizens seems to be forgotten about when the citizens in question are its own lower class.

[B Calm]

52. It's not the illegals that bring down wages, it's the cheap labor cons

who hire them for below standard wages! BLAME THE EMPLOYER!

[Elwood P Dowd]

56. Supply and Demand.

If there was not an abundant supply of illegals willing to work for $5.15 an hour or less, then the demand for workers would increase dramatically. Wages would rise accordingly, though obscene profits for the republican fat cats would be reduced.

[Ksec]

60. Bingo, we have a winner

Its really that simple. Supply of workers versus jobs available. Never mind all the hyperbole . Its basically a supply and demand situation whether they like it or not.

[Vinnie From Indy]

62. I agree!

It is a simple phenomena!

[B Calm]

70. Cheap labor cons look for desperate, hungry working people who

are willing to work cheap or starve. It's not the illegals fault, they're hungry and desperate. The republicans are salivating right now over the idea of millions of desperate older baby boomers to hire as cheap labor after they do away with our Social Security. Blame the employer and demand that they be punished!

[corporate_mike]

78. you got that wrong

If there was an unlimited supply of people willing to work for $5/hr, average wages would trend downward to $5/hr.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. The average wages are trending down.

... for the occupations in question.

Illegals are not candidates for every job, they are candidates for enough jobs that 24% of the workers (mostly blue collar workers) have lost 12% of their earning capacity.

This may or may not show up in average wages for everyone, depending upon how much wages go up for other occupations.