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Looks like I'm gonna get slammed again in a local conservative forum.

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bertha katzenengel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:34 PM
Original message
Looks like I'm gonna get slammed again in a local conservative forum.
It's not completely conservative. But mostly.

Someone is going on about "Hanoi Jane" again, and that she is being honored as one of the top 100 Americans or some such thing. That person linked to a word document -- I can't link to it because it's a private forum.

This was my reply:

From the Word document:

"100 Years of Great Women" should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots."

Patriots with blood on their hands -- who got that blood on their hands while committing dishonorable acts -- yet have been honored since George Washington. Obviously he was a great patriot, the leader of the Continental Army, overwhelmingly selected as our first president, and a man who fought well during the French & Indian War -- AFAIK the first major white man's war on the new continent. One wonders how many native Americans, who were defending their home, he alone killed or ordered killed.

All throughout the prosecution of the doctrine of Manifest Destiny, Indian killers were honored. American patriots were honored for committing genocide.

Honorable Americans with blood on their hands include every single slave-holding signer of the Declaration of Independence -- just for starters.

Honorable Americans with blood on their hands include those who've committed atrocities during war, but who were awarded medals of valor for other acts.

I confess ignorance of whether Jane Fonda did or did not actually commit acts of treason. But if she committed treason, she will not be the first American patriot, male or female, nonetheless to be honored.

In this country, there is honor in speaking one's mind. And there are those who consider this to be honor only when what's said lines up with their own POV.

I do not support our wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, and I am terrified that President Bush will see nothing wrong with invading another country before his term is over. Who on God's earth is the United States of America to wage war on a country that has not declared war upon us?! And do we honestly believe -- does George W. Bush, a man who professes to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ -- believe that a loving God intends such actions?

I am a patriot who loves her country -- yet does my refusal to support immoral war make me a traitor? No. I am fully within my rights under the Constitution to speak out against what I believe is wrong.


Here's a question: can anyone point me to an unbiased source that describes Jane Fonda's actions during the Viet Nam war? Did she commit treason? Don't laugh me out of here: did she? I honestly don't know what she did other than protest. Help a fellow liberal out, will ya?

Thanks for whatever info you can offer. The more clearly unbiased, the better.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. If you commit treason, and save thousands of innocent lives
is it wrong?

Hope it helps. It is all I can offer.

Courage!:patriot:
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bertha katzenengel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. excellent point
thank you, mdmc :patriot:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. best of luck
all else fails, you can claim that she was working under direct orders of poppy bush and the cia. truthiness is our friend.

:D
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. As far as I know she never committed treason..but I am pretty sure
the bush administration has.
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Another Bill C. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Snopes
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. she was photographed in North Vietnam
Edited on Thu May-04-06 09:45 PM by madrchsod
sitting on an anti aircraft gun. treason? maybe but that`s up to a court. she recently admitted that it was a mistake that she regrets. sometimes people do some really bad thing in their lives that later they publicly apologize. hell i purchased books and other stuff that was printed in north veitnam during the war-i guess i was trading with the enemy.

opps she didn`t apologize..oh well that really doesn`t matter with the horror of today`s war
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Here's a good start
But you know, if you tried searching yourself, you'd become a much better searcher. Or fisher. Whatever, that whole Christ analogy


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fonda#.22Hanoi_Jane.22
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is what she said on Larry King a few weeks ago...
KING: Clear something up, because I'm basing this on paper accounts. What did you say about Hanoi, you were sorry you went?

FONDA: I'm sorry, that I was photographed sitting on an anti- aircraft gun. Me. That image made soldiers think that I was against American soldiers. And I had spent the two years prior to going there working with soldiers. They brought me into the anti-war movement. It was what I had heard from them and learned from them that turned me against the war. Because before then, I came to the anti-war movement really late. I -- you know, I thought that it was -- I neatly compartmentalized, and not wanted to admit that it was very different than the war my father had fought in. And I spent two years trying to help and support anti-war G.I.s and returning Vietnam veterans. And I opened an office in Washington called the G.I. office, then eventually I made "Coming Home."

KING: How did you let yourself be photographed? Why did you even jump on the tank?

FONDA: I didn't jump on the tank. It was the last day there. I was -- I was in a kind of raw state. Because as I say -- I've written in detail about the trip. It was an extremely emotional experience, being in a country that was being bombed by my country. And I went there to expose the lies that Nixon was telling us. And on the last day, these group of young soldiers had sung me a song, and I -- asked me to sing one back, and I did. And it was in Vietnamese, and I probably made a fool of myself. They were laughing and clapping. I was laughing and clapping. And you know, there was the gun over there. Someone kind of offered me a seat, and I sat down. And I wasn't really thinking of what it meant.

KING: Did you realize when you came home...

FONDA: When I stood up and walked -- when I was walking away, it hit me what that would look like. And I asked them to destroy the pictures, but there must have been 50 photographers. And it should have been a red flag to me, because I've never seen that many photographers.

KING: You had to live through a lot after that, right, taunts of people.

FONDA: I think it hurt a lot of people. And I'm very, very sorry. And I will go to my grave regretting that lapse of judgment. It was terrible.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/06/lkl.01.html
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. try this link
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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Jane Fonda opposed the war ......
Edited on Thu May-04-06 09:49 PM by hwmnbn
she made a stupid decision for a photo shoot. That was the extent of her "treason." She was not in any position of political power. She was a young popular actress who spoke her mind.

Her opinions were anti-war and at the time, controversial. But the important thing to remember is that SHE WAS RIGHT!! We have the same situation going on today with a different cast of characters.

Treason is outing a CIA operative and exposing her cover company in time of war. That is treason. Jane Fonda took a photo-op and spoke out against the Viet Nam war. That's all she did.
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Everybody makes a mistake once in a while in the passion of a cause
I burned my draft card at a protest rally
I realized that night I needed it to buy 3.2 beer.
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Conservative warhawks have spent decades transforming Vietnam
into a wildly popular war.
They've rewritten history to fabricate events that had us right at the brink of winning. Victory was within our grasp and all of America was right behind them cheering on McNamara and Nixon to win this war at any cost.....

Then Jane Fonda sat on an ack ack gun, destroyed troop morale singlehandedly, and emboldened the enemy to the point we had to withdraw.

The fact is that in 1970 a full 75% of Americans were demanding an end to the fiasco. Troop morale was decimated years earlier by a pentagon that made it apparent by their decisions that we were never going to win and never going to leave.

I see the same today, and they aren't waiting decades to spin the history this time.
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johnnypneumatic Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. tell them its old news, how about concentrating on the traitors of the now
they are just trying to turn the conversation by talking about clinton or fonda. They usually do that when they can't win the arguement that they started. The real issue is the criminals and traitors in the administration now. Make him try to defend * and Rummy. If they can turn the argument, so can you.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Ancient history
Ask them how many deaths she caused - by sitting on a tank. Then ask them how many deaths el pretzeldente has caused.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. since I deal with this issue a lot with all the military, and the little
freeper rednecks, I always ask them why she is the only one of the anti-war celebrities against whom they are still spitting. and point out that the war was sold, on at least one level, as a defense of democracy, which includes the right and duty to criticize one's government when it f**** up. and ask them what they did to bring that dreadful conflict to an end, and how they supported the ptsd/agent orange vets on their return.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. that's why I love you. you take a lickin' and keep on tickin'
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. It never seems to go away, even though we're decades beyond
Edited on Thu May-04-06 10:12 PM by mcscajun
Vietnam, and Jane Fonda isn't exactly in the spotlight all the time.

I saw a pickup truck here in Northwestern NJ just the other day with American flag decals and ribbons, the usual stuff. In the center of the back window was a square yellow sticker with letters in black:

JANE FONDA
AMERICAN TRAITOR
BITCH


Quite frankly, I was shocked...I knew on a gut level that there was still a lot of anger out there toward Ms. Fonda, but I hadn't seen it so publicly displayed in raw language in many, many years.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. In defense of Jane Fonda
I would point out that when this happened she was just a kid that had lived a sheltered life as the daughter of a rich and famous actor father.
My god I would hate to be judged by the stupid things I did as a young one by the world press. especially if the things I did were to help right a terrible wrong that had befell my country.

But the above advice, to point out that this is old news and insist on relevance to time, is the best advice.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. she was 34 when she went to Hanoi
I am not criticizing Fonda for her actions, and I think the constant "treason" charges from the right are ridiculous, but Fonda was old and mature enough to know exactly what she was doing.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Right you are
I guess I think of her at that time as one of the "kids" that opposed the war, because most of the old people were still saying we could win it if we would just turn louse the bombers on the north and bomb them into submission.
But I guess if bush could wait till he was 40 to grow up Jane Fonda can still qualify as a kid at 34 because she also had a sheltered life.
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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. Get a grip you old bums, watch "On golden pond"
nt
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. If treason means helping to get the country out of a pointless war
and saving lives on all sides then yes she committed treason. She was a vocal anti war activist.

I think worst case all one can say is that she was guilty of very very very bad judgment in letting herself be photographed with North Vietnamese officials in a military setting. Did her acts affect or lead to any kind of military engagement? No. Was it treason? Well - she was never arrested or indicted - like Rove will be tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. Going by the caselaw
She may have committed treason by virtue of the radio broadcasts that she made on behalf of the North Vietnamese government. She encouraged American pilots to return to base without dropping their bombs. As an interesting comparison, here's a quote from Kawakita v. US (343 US 717) detailing treasonous comments made by the defendant:

Evidence of what petitioner said during this period concerning the war effort and his professions of loyalty, if believed by the jury, leaves little doubt of his traitorous intent. "It looks like MacArthur took a run-out powder on you boys"; "The Japanese were a little superior to your American soldiers"; "You Americans don't have no chance. We will win the war." "Well, you guys needn't be interested in when the war will be over because you won't go back; you will stay here and work. I will go back to the States because I am an American citizen"; "We will kill all you prisoners right here anyway, whether you win the war or lose it. You will never get to go back to the States"; "I will be glad when all of the Americans is dead, and then I can go home and live happy." These are some of the statements petitioner made aligning himself with the Japanese cause. There was also evidence that he said that the prisoners would never go back to their wives and their families, that Japan would win the war and that he would return to the United States as an important man, that Japan would win if it took 100 years, that the Japanese were superior to the Americans and if the American Army had Japanese officers, they could whip the world, that there were more American boys who would be available to do the work, if the present prisoners were too weak to work. And on the day the work at the camp ended after Japan surrendered he commented, "You American bastards will be well fed" or "you will be getting fat from now on."

She clearly fulfilled the overt act requirement, as required by the Constitution, by making at least one of those broadcasts. The real question is whether she fulfilled the intent requirement, which demands an intent to betray the United States. Here's an excerpt claimed to be from a House investigation in 1972 (unable to independently verify at the moment):

"One thing that I have learned beyond a shadow of a doubt since I've been in this country is that Nixon will never be able to break the spirit of these people; he'll never be able to turn Vietnam, north and south, into a neo- colony of the United States by bombing, by invading, by attacking in any way. One has only to go into the countryside and listen to the peasants describe the lives they led before the revolution to understand why every bomb that is dropped only strengthens their determination to resist. I've spoken to many peasants who talked about the days when their parents had to sell themselves to landlords as virtually slaves, when there were very few schools and much illiteracy, inadequate medical care, when they were not masters of their own lives.

But now, despite the bombs, despite the crimes being created- being committed against them by Richard Nixon, these people own their own land, build their own schools- the children learning, literacy- illiteracy is being wiped out, there is no more prostitution as there was during the time when this was a French colony. In other words, the people have taken power into their own hands, and they are controlling their own lives."

The above citation comes from this link. http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

Here's a little evidence, hopefully credible in the case of the latter citation, to help you decide for yourself. Enjoy.
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