More Rape at Duke...

[hexola]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NC_DUKE_RAPE_NCOL-?SITE=NCASH&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

DURHAM, N.C. (AP) -- Duke University police searched a dorm room after a woman said a fellow student raped her following an end-of-classes party last week.

On Wednesday, police searched a male student's dorm for photos, videotapes, cameras, drugs and women's clothing. A search warrant application said they were investigating allegations of second-degree forcible rape, possession of controlled substance and possession of drug paraphernalia.

No charges have been filed, but authorities collected DNA samples from the woman and the man she says attacked her.

[Virginia Dare]

1. Do these people study?

I mean, WTF, it's exam time, isn't it? Give it a rest with the wild parties folks.

[htuttle]

4. I think it's more than the partying that's the problem

Heck, we can get 80,000 drunk partiers on State St here for Halloween and not have a single rape occur among them. A few burning dumpsters or an overturned car, maybe, sure. But no rapes. :shrug:

[Binka]

6. My Daughter Was Raped In Madison

Last July. She is still a mess. It has seriously affected her and her school work.

[Jigarotta]

8. I'm so sorry, Binka.

:(

...

[htuttle]

9. I wouldn't suggest it never happens here

Because it does.

But it's not JUST because people are partying -- rapists have something wrong with them.

[Binka]

10. I Know You Were Not Suggesting That

You have my utmost respect on DU I count you in the top 20 people who post here. I just wanted to point out that women are in danger on ANY campus in the USA. Sorry if it sounded like an attack.

[Virginia Dare]

49. Alcohol is a major factor...

I think it makes both men and women do things they normally wouldn't do sober. Some people can hold their booze, others can't.

Date rape drug is a serious problem too.

[htuttle]

54. You see, that's where I have differences

I don't think somebody who's not inclined to be a rapist would ever rape somebody whether they are drunk or not. I also think that somebody who's inclined to rape will do so even when sober.

It's NOT something that 'just happens' because you're drunk, ie., just because a person's judgement is bad when they're drunk. Rape is all tied up with a person's conceptions of power -- what power is, what it means to hold power over another person, etc...

Do I think that somebody who's inclined to be a rapist is MORE likely to do so when drunk? Sure. But they were broken BEFORE they got drunk, whether anybody realized it or not.

Being drunk does not make people do things they would never, ever do when they were sober. It might make them do something they'd only dream about when sober, but the inclination to rape itself does not come from the bottle -- it just lets it loose.

[Virginia Dare]

56. I think we're essentially saying the same thing...

just from different points of view.

At any rate, the human mind is a very intricate thing, and there's alot we don't know about human behavior, all I will say is you could very well be correct.

[LostinVA]

66. Correct -- using alcohol as an excuse is just that -- an excuse

Rapists are sociopaths.... alcohol doesn't make someone a sociopath. You punch someone while you're drunk, have sex with them, rob a bank, rape someone? Anything? That's not the alcohol: it's YOU. I've heard that excuse from people for years and years... except, oddly, from my alcoholic relatives.

[Spike from MN]

84. So you're saying that

your alcoholic relatives got hammered and then proceeded to punch someone, had sex with them, robbed a bank, and then raped someone? All in one night? No offense LIV but man, it sounds like you have some really messed-up relatives.

[LostinVA]

85. No! Ha! I just meant

That when they do stupid stuff (like forget to get their kid's birthday cake), they never blame it on the alcohol.

[Spike from MN]

91. I know. I was just goofing with you.

I left out the sarcasm tag but I figured my post was idiotic enough that it didn't need it. Apparently not, probably because all my posts are idiotic. ;)

[LostinVA]

93. I have some pretty nutty redneck relatives

So, some of your post is true!

[Spike from MN]

94. OK now THAT is funny. LOL! n/t

[Moosepoop]

108. Are we related?

I have relatives that fit some of that description, too! Howdy, cuz!! :hi:

[LostinVA]

123. Howdy, cuz!

[0007]

75. Invading armies are notorious for raping the villagers.

Something I'll never understand in a thousand years. Must be a group power thing. Kill the babies in some cases and rape the women. Argh!!

[frustrated_lefty]

111. What's to understand?

It emasculates the men, and, if you're invading, it insures that the following generation has a greater likelihood of being sympathetic or even supportive towards your agenda.

Is it right? Fuck, no.

It happens, though, and it sucks. I honestly believe the next evolution for our species is going to require a major, fundamental shift in our perceptions regarding force and coercion.

[Pale Blue Dot]

118. Amen.

As a heterosexual man I have to say that there is nothing attractive about rape to the well-adjusted, normal male mind. Whether drunk or sober, normal males want a woman who is as demonstrably into the sexual act as they are.

Rape is rape. Period.

[LostinVA]

124. Thank you! Thank you!

I'm serious -- I've been posting this all over these threads: rapists are sociopaths. "Normal" men do NOT rape women, nor find it the least appealing.

Again, thanks!

[knitter4democracy]

88. I'm so sorry.

My SIL was abducted and raped after being slipped a date rape drug while studying last summer at FIT in New York. She's still not dealing with it or even admitting that it happened. She's now changed her major and told everyone that she'll never go back to New York and that it's because she wasn't a good enough Christian. *sigh* I just wish we could help her somehow.

[frustrated_lefty]

110. Oh, Binka

It was NOT her fault. Tell her that over and over and over again. And, tell her she's strong and smart enough to do well in her classes. It would be silly to let some other idiot's deviant behavior get in the way of that. Remind her, this is HER life. That asshole doesn't get to occupy free space in it in any way, shape or form.

My heart goes out to you and yours.

-fl

[ContraBass Black]

19. Ha. If Duke is like any other school I've been to, this is nothing.

In colleges, partying is regular and rape is pandemic.

[Scout1071]

68. Happens at every campus, much, much more frequently than most think.

[knitter4democracy]

89. Amen to that. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Send this to Rita Crosby....quick!

[LostinVA]

3. Well, I'm sure she asked for it

Everyone knows that co-eds that go to parties are just asking to be assaulted... or maybe the young man was just horny and wanted to get some. Totally understandable, eh?

:sarcasm:

Seriously -- young woman away at college are so vulnerable....

[donsu]

16. sorry to say but young women are vulnerable everywhere

we women have to live, we can't stay in our rooms our whole lives, so we go about our lives always alert to danger from men. it's ingrained in us, as normal as breathing.

many parents are derelict in protecting their daughters by not teaching them the dangers and what to look out for.

many young women are vulnerable even amongst their family members (rape/sexual abuse)

[LostinVA]

67. Being female, I know this

I'm saying, they are even more vulnerable in college, because they often AREN'T on their gurad... they are at a party having fun, with "friends," being alone with a guy they like and whom they don't know is a rapist, running to the library real quick before it closes -- but thinking they'll be okay because of the streetlights, etc. Date rape drugs, fratties wanted to earn points "having sex" with freshmen women, etc.

[aikoaiko]

43. vulnerable at college.

As a master's student I was doing research on unwanted sexual activity and surveyed a bunch of women from Intro to Psyc classes (the most often used subjects of psychological research). When the results came back, I was stunned to see much much lower rates of unwanted sexual contact than reported in the literature. Almost none was reported in the last 12 months.

I thought about it for a while and then decided to target the senior level classes. Half of those women had experienced unwanted sexual activity (which, to be fair, included rape and much less severe acts of unwanted sexuality than rape). Half. They surely were vulnerable those four years at college.

[ms liberty]

5. This is an issue at EVER Y COLLEGE in this country - not just Duke...

The only reason it's getting any press at all is due to the sensationalistic nature of the ambulance-chasers in what passes as our so-called liberal media.

It's no secret that every institute of higher learning in this nation suppresses the reporting of rape and assault on campus, solely to protect their own asses and keep up that student enrollment.

By focusing only on Duke, the media minimizes the actual issues; making it seem as if it is an isolated problem, rather than the larger problem faced primarily by women all across this country.

[BrownOak]

7. Half Full - Half Empty

OTOH, if there wasn't the other case at Duke right now then it's likely that the media would be completely ignoring this one. So while your point about minimizing the actual issue is well founded, this at least opens the door for someone to expound on the larger problem. If that's the case, then this coverage could do some good. Whether or not that happens of course is the big question.

[ComerPerro]

17. You're right

[Triana]

20. Exactly. The only reason this one is in the spotlight is the media frenzy

over the Lacrosse case. This type of thing happens almost daily on campuses across this nation not just at Duke. By focusing on these individual cases, the LAMESTREAM media only loses sight of the larger issue and detracts public attention from the larger issue.

[LisaL]

11. And yet another ludicrous story.

The woman admits she was drunk, and actually doesn't have any idea what happened. The guy took her to her dorm, she woke up naked, and now thinks she was raped.
This would have never been reported if it wasn't for the other allegations.

[Katherine Brengle]

12. What is ludicrous about that?

I woke up like that several times in college, and it was never for sure what happened. She's using her best judgement to protect herself. (You could argue she should have done that the night before, but no one *asks* to be raped, regardless of how much they drink or who they are talking to at a party.)

[marions ghost]

13. do you happen to know

if there is any testing for date rape drugs that you can get done on college campus clinics..or would this always have to be done at an outside hospital?

[Mandate My Ass]

14. IIRC

Date rape drugs such as GHB are very quickly eliminated from the body. One expert wrote an article saying if a woman urinates before going to the hospital or clinic to be tested, that the test would likely turn out negative even if she had been drugged.

Although if there's DNA evidence and she didn't consent, I'd think that's enough to initiate a rape investigation.

[marions ghost]

15. thanks

do you know what journal that might have been in?

I'm not a biologist but it's hard for me to believe that every trace would be gone. I'm more concerned with how to combat the use of drugs rather than proving a rape.

How is the drug manufactured? Could there be ways to control it or mark it that way? Just speculating.
Don't really expect definitive answers, just looking for clues as to why looking at these drugs is not a bigger part of combatting rape on campuses.

[Mandate My Ass]

26. I'm not sure of the journal but she also wrote a text chapter

on that topic. I heard her talk about it once at a women's health seminar. Her name is Elizabeth Datner.

Here is a link I found with some of the info I heard originally from Dr. D. Also, I know somebody who is a former weight lifter and he said the ingredients to make homemade GHB are remarkably easy to obtain on the internet. He said he stopped using it after becoming extremely intoxicated on it and forgetting an entire evening, one he heard from friends later, it's probably a good thing he did.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs2/2286/odd.htm

GHB, along with its analogs, has become a significant problem, particularly on college campuses. Because GHB is odorless and colorless, it is virtually undetectable when mixed in beverages. GHB and its analogs are quickly eliminated from the body and may be difficult to detect in overdose patients or victims of sexual assault. GHB often is referred to as a date rape drug and has been used to facilitate sexual assaults. When even small amounts of GHB or its analogs are mixed with alcohol, the intended victim loses consciousness for several hours....

GHB can be made from the easily obtainable analogs GBL (a solvent commonly used as a paint stripper) and BD (a chemical used in the production of plastics and adhesives). GBL, which is converted into GHB upon ingestion, is a legal substance sold over the counter as a dietary supplement and is touted as a muscle-building supplement or as a means of enhancing sexual experiences. On January 21, 1999, the Food and Drug Administration issued a warning about food supplement products that contain GBL and requested that manufacturers recall all products containing the additive. Despite the recall, GBL is sold illegally in both powdered and liquid forms at gyms, fitness centers, and some disreputable health food stores.

Although it is unlawful to produce or distribute GHB in the United States, recipes and do-it-yourself kits are available on several Internet sites. According to anecdotal reporting, several individuals in the Oklahoma City area have purchased multigallon quantities of GBL over the Internet and received these shipments via package delivery services.

[marions ghost]

42. thanx

I will research it further from this. It seems to me this is something that everybody should know. That these particular drugs are such a huge problem on college campuses. I'm not sure that people understand the extent of use and acceptance. Along with acceptance goes the idea that if you are social in the normal sense at college, you may be more vulnerable than you realize. This really is an issue that colleges have to do more about. Not that they can stop it, but I know that they avoid meeting it head on.

[jberryhill]

28. Why? Because it is also used voluntarily and recreationally....

...and it is usually made in someone's kitchen:

http://www.neonjoint.com/drug_recipes/chapter4.html

[marions ghost]

38. OK gotcha thanks

so it "compares to ecstasy" -- so it's just another recreational party drug, which can have exploitable side effects like alcohol and other drugs, no more no less. And cheap to make. And the tests are inclusive. OK that completes the picture for me. Thanks. I wasn't up on the extent of use.

[Spike from MN]

24. Here's a little more info for you.

If you suspect you have been drugged:

1. Get a urine (pee) test as soon as possible. The drugs leave your system quickly. Rohypnol stays
    in the body for several hours, and can be detected in the urine up to 72 hours after taking it.
    GHB leaves the body in 12 hours.
2. Don't urinate before getting help.

More info at http://www.4woman.gov/faq/rohypnol.htm. Or just google "date rape drugs" and go from there as other sites may have different stats from the one I posted.

The phrase "up to 72 hours" leaves a lot of leeway for variables. Maybe for some the drug would be eliminated a lot quicker depending on things such as dosage, body weight and a whole host of other factors. So yes, it would indeed appear to be true that negative results on the test might not necessarily mean that she hadn't been drugged.

[marions ghost]

29. thanks

that link is an excellent summary of basic info. I wasn't sure if rohypnol was an illegal drug or not, but this page says it's black market in the US. That's the one that may have a chance of being detected.
But it sounds like there's not much of an attempt being made to control these drugs at the source, which is about what I expected. And if one can be made from paint stripper...

[Spike from MN]

31. You're welcome. And I agree that it's rather alarming

that these drugs are so readily available. I haven't had time to look into the issue all that much but from what little I have read so far it looks pretty scary.

I hear a lot about the efforts being made to crack down other illegal drugs but I really haven't heard much about a similar effort regarding date rape drugs. Maybe it's there but it's just a lot harder to do because as you say, if it can be made from paint stripper...

[jbnow]

18. I read what the poster said

as the story being REPORTED so soon being ridiculous, not the woman's story.

Think she is right if the implication is papers are reporting it now because of other case.

[LisaL]

22. Exactly. Reporting this as some sort of huge national story is

ludicrous.
What exactly is the news value in that?
Some woman suspects she was raped, and reports it to the police.
Police are investigating. And yet this is national news?

[Moosepoop]

23. No, the poster is calling the woman's story ridiculous.

The poster uses her take on the woman's story -- "The woman admits she was drunk, and actually doesn't have any idea what happened. The guy took her to her dorm, she woke up naked, and now thinks she was raped..." as the rationale for calling the rape allegation itself ridiculous.

She emphasizes the point by intimating that this story would not be worth reporting if it weren't for the other case.

[LisaL]

32. I must have not made myself very clear.

The woman reported rape, and police is going to investigate.
I have no way of knowing what had happened, and if there is a case there or not.
But why should this be national news?

[LisaL]

21. It's ludicrous because it shouldn't be a national story at all.

How on Earth is that news?
Yea, she is suspicious she was raped. She reported it.
Should that make the news?

[Moosepoop]

25. Should the high rate of campus rapes in the country NOT make the news? n/t

[LisaL]

33. Do they make the news?

I am sure there are stories just like this one on every campus.
Are we supposed to hear about them every day?

[Mandate My Ass]

34. I wish we would hear more about these non sensational cases

Oh, and ingesting large amounts of alcohol doesn't make rape acceptable or less illegal. Even if she was passed out, that's no reason to assume whatever is done to her body by another person is OK.

If she's not sure exactly what happened but knows she didn't consent to sex and wants it investigated, there is no reason not to pursue it.

Campus date and acquaintance rape is an enormous problem. I wish that a constructive dialogue could be initiated. I might clear up these rampant misperceptions that impairment is a mitigating factor for rapists.

[Moosepoop]

37. Is your question whether they DO make the news, or whether they SHOULD?

DO the high number of rapes (on campus or off) in this country get much media attention, other than the high-profile ones? No.

SHOULD they? In my opinion, yes.

If there are so many rapes occurring that you're sure it's happening on every campus (and that's just the college rapes), then why shouldn't the public be made aware of it? What is the problem with "hearing about it every day", if it's HAPPENING every day?

I'm sorry if your mind is too beautiful to waste on victims of rape, but some minds aren't.

[LisaL]

39. I guess you are now ready to hang that guy from the tree too?

Talk about a rush to judgment.
Do you in fact know there was a rape?

[Moosepoop]

44. I don't recall my post mentioning hanging, trees, or judgment.

You asked if rape should be in the news. I gave you my answer.
I said nothing about the innocence or guilt of the accused in this case.
I said nothing about my knowledge, or lack thereof, concerning this case.

But since you asked...

No, I don't know if, in fact, a rape occurred.

I do know that two grocery bags containing the AV's clothing were seized from the suspect's dorm room when it was searched by the police. If he walked her home from the party at his dorm room, yet the clothes she wore to the party were in his room later, then either he walked her home naked or he took her clothes back to his room with him. Neither scenario proves a rape took place, but I'm going with the idea that he took her clothes with him when he left her room. I don't know why, but I can wonder.

I also know that according to the AV, she is a lesbian, has a girlfriend, does not have sex with men, and TOLD the suspect this after he tried kissing her at the party. His response? He told her that he could " ---- her straight." The actual word is blacked out on the application for the search warrant, but I'm fairly certain that he didn't say he could "sing" her straight, or "help her study" straight.
Does this prove rape? Again, no. But I'm free to believe that there may be something to her story.

Now I'll wait for the posts announcing that lesbians are just secretly pining for some manly guy to " ---- them straight."

[LisaL]

45. What about robberies, burglaries, carjackings?

Should every one of those crimes be reported nationally?
Or only rapes?
And yea, I heard she was a lesbian. Does it prove she was raped, though?
And I have no way of knowing if she was, or she wasn't. Police is investigating.
I am just not inclined to go beat on some pans and pots outside this guy's window.
Do you have a problem with that?

[Moosepoop]

53. This thread is about rape.

And no, I have no problem whatsoever with whether you bang pots and pans outside of windows.

[Spike from MN]

90. Nice try. You thought you could slide this one by us.

You said the guy told the woman that he could "---- her straight." There are 4 blanks to "fill in" in that statement. Nice try Moosepoop but I'm calling you on your BS. I think we both know damn well you were trying to imply he said he could "rape her straight" but you didn't want to come out and say it. Instead, you tried to slip it by us. You could have put in 3 blanks or even 5 but instead you chose 4 and figured we wouldn't call you on it. And I suppose it's "pure coincidence" that the word rape has 4 letters. Yeah, sure. I ain't buying it and neither should anyone else.

I also notice you said the girl is a lesbian and she has a girlfriend. I call bullshit on the whole story. No way in hell is any of it true. Her story is falling apart so now she's just making shit up. You're saying that she would say "no" to an offer of the "real thing" but she'd be A-OK with, say, some woman coming at her with a strap-on?? That she'd actually turn down a young college stud's offer to diddle her because she'd rather spend her time with, say, a battery-powered device with multiple settings and perhaps various attachments?? No way in hell. OK, I'll try to keep an open mind and be willing to consider the possibility that the second scenario might be true, depending on the attachments involved. But other than that, everything else is just a pure bullshit and you know it.

:sarcasm:    <- The sarcasm tag applies to the entire post except for the statement about the attachments.

[Moosepoop]

109. Damn, Spike!! You had me going there for a minute...

:rofl:

Your reply sounded exactly like what I was anticipating... so much so that I was completely befuddled at who it was coming from! (Not enough coffee in me yet.;))

One minor clarification: I don't think he said he could "rape" her straight, I think he said he could "f--k" her straight. And I think he may have then actually tried to prove it -- either to her, or to himself.

[Spike from MN]

117. Heh heh. Your post was just begging for a reply.

But I figured you would know better than to take it seriously when you saw who it was from. Guess not. Gotcha!

No need to clarify. I knew full well you didn't state that he said he could "rape" her straight. It was pretty obvious that the term you left out was the "effenheimer." After all, "boink" has five letters so that didn't fit. "Broomsticking" is even longer so that was right out. No, I was saying that you were trying to imply the boy was absolutely 100% guilty without a doubt but since you didn't have anything to back up your assertions, you were just making crap up. You implied that he said he wanted to "rape her straight" despite the fact that it's obvious that's not what he said. After all, I know how you anti-rapists think. Goddamn heathens. If God didn't want men to rape women, he wouldn't have given them penises. Or broomsticks. And once you goddamn anti-rapists finally accept that fact and rape victims everywhere learn to just "lay back and enjoy it", the world will be a much better place. Until then, rapists will continue to be plagued by "false accusations" of crimes they actually committed. And that, to some, is truly a crime.

Some of the above post is sarcastic. Some isn't. Take you pick.

[Spike from MN]

27. Can you please provide a link for that?

You stated that "The woman admits she was drunk, and actually doesn't have any idea what happened."

In the link the OP provided, the article states that "The accuser said the man walked her to her room after the April 26 party and had sex without her consent, police said."

The phrase "had sex without her consent" appears to conflict with your statement that the woman "actually doesn't have any idea what happened" so if you could provide a link for that to clear things up I would appreciate it.

[LisaL]

30. Here is another link to the story.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/05/national/main1590311.shtml
"Both drugs and alcohol are believed to have been involved, Lewis reports. Investigators said the woman had consumed a large amount of alcohol at the party and that someone had rigged a vaporizer to spew marijuana smoke into the room.

On a police department website, investigators write the woman could not provide too many details of what happened leading up to the alleged attack, Lewis notes."

I have stated the woman can not describe what had happened because of what police claims on its own website.
The investigators also say both alcohol and drugs were involved, and that the woman consumed a large amount of alcohol.
Basically, it appears she was drunk and can not really say what happened.

[Spike from MN]

48. Thanks for the link.

Yes, the woman had consumed a lot of alcohol and there was also marijuana involved but the statement on the police website really doesn't clear things up for me.

On a police department website, investigators write the woman could not provide too many details of what happened leading up to the alleged attack, Lewis notes."

It says"leading up to the alleged attack" but that really doesn't say anything about her recollection of events at the time of the attack which may be very different. Getting attacked could have had a rather sobering affect on her and her memory may have become more clear at that point. I don't believe something like that would be all that uncommon, kind of like when you get scared and instinct kicks in and you become much more sharply focused on what is going on around you. Also, I interpret the part in bold (my emphasis) about "not being able to provide a lot of details" differently than saying that she "actually doesn't have any idea what happened." as you stated in your original post. Please allow me to elaborate on that.

Prior to the alleged attack she had been at a party. Maybe she didn't have a whole lot of details to give police because there wasn't anything about the party that really stood out in her mind as being noteworthy. Maybe she had been there for, say, three hours or whatever and they sat around drinking, listening to music, etc. but all in all, it was just a few hours of partying and nothing really memorable happened during that time. I know for example that when I go to a party, we might sit around and play cards or a board game or whatever. If a cop were to interview me later, I wouldn't really have a whole lot of details to give him/her because there's really just not that much to tell. We sat around playing cards. Not a whole lot of detail there but that doesn't mean I "didn't have any idea what happened." I know what happened but I don't have much to tell the cops because, well, nothing much happened. (Or maybe my friends just throw boring parties? LOL!) Do you see what I'm saying there? Does that make sense?

And as I stated earlier, the woman said that the man walked her to her room and "had sex without her consent". She doesn't say for example "I think he had sex with me without my consent" or "I'm not real sure what happened but I think.." etc. She's pretty clear on what she is saying so I don't think it's really correct to say that she "doesn't have any idea what happened" as you stated in an earlier post. Yes, she was drunk but in spite of that, she seems pretty clear on the "sex without consent" part. Or is there something else I am missing there?

[LisaL]

50. I shouldn't have stated that she does not remember what

had happened.
It was my impression after reading the story, and also from the things I heard from other people, but the story itself does not state that.

[Spike from MN]

57. Oh hey, that's cool.

Just wanted to make sure that I had all the info straight on the story so far. I wasn't sure if there were differing accounts posted on other sites as, quite frankly, I haven't done a search. I was just going by the info in link the OP put up.

[LisaL]

59. Yes, I have heard the account of her

not remembering what had happened, but since there isn't an official link, I shouldn't have posted it. Sorry about the confusion.

[Spike from MN]

60. Not a problem. n/t

[LisaL]

77. Well, I finally found the link that claims she has no real recollection

of what had happened, and only thinks something might have happened.
"The two agreed to walk to the on-campus concert nearby. Because of her intoxication, the woman's memory is sporadic for the rest of the night, but she does remember the man walking her home, she told police. She told police she remembers being in bed later and hearing, then seeing the man as he left her dorm room. He left his contact information on her computer.

The next morning, she felt like something had happened, according to the search warrant. She went to Duke Hospital and a nurse trained in sexual assault reporting examined her and collected fluid evidence."
http://www.newsobserver.com/145/story/436192.html

[Spike from MN]

92. Thanks for the update and the link.

I noticed the article stated that "he denied having sex with her" and that they took DNA evidence from both. I would imagine the results of the SANE will be important even though, as others have pointed out in previous threads on the topic, there are cases where a rape has occurred even though there is no DNA evidence. (Offhand, I believe the stats showed 70% have DNA evidence which, obviously, would mean that 30% don't.)

[bloom]

35. Is this news to you?

That women are being raped when they are passed out?

Do you think that that isn't rape? That is what you are suggesting.

As if everyone who is asleep, drugged or passed out has given "permission" to all of mankind to "have sex" with her (or him)?


Re: "And yet another ludicrous story. The woman admits she was drunk, and actually doesn't have any idea what happened. The guy took her to her dorm, she woke up naked, and now thinks she was raped."

_________________________

And maybe more of this should be in the news - if people are going to be in denial about it being a problem. Or act as if it's nothing - "ludicrous" even.

I think the rapists at every school/community need to be exposed. Are you defending them for a reason?

[LisaL]

36. I am not defending anyone. But you are automatically assuming

there must be a rapist, regardless of any actual evidence.
Do you in fact know there was a rape?
If you are freaking going to expose someone, don't you think that maybe you should at least wait and see if the facts support the allegations?

[marions ghost]

40. you can speak in general terms as

we all know there are enough rapes going on on campuses for discussion. Let's assume there ARE rapists, even if this one is not yet proven.

[LisaL]

47. Who are you going to expose, then?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

46. I was always inclined to believe the woman's allegations.

But no more.
Frankly, if she says it happened, and he says it didn't-why should I believe her and not him?
Is her word any more valuable than his?

[Moosepoop]

51. When were you inclined to believe her?

It must have been before your first post in this thread (#11).

[LisaL]

58. I was inclined to believe women in general. Not her in particular.

But as of now-forget it. The defendant is presumed innocent until there is a trial, where he could be proven guilty-or not.
I am going to stick to the presumption of innocence. Actually, that should be a PC thing to do. So, WTF should it be a problem for anyone here?

[TorchTheWitch]

121. It's PC???

The presumption of innocence is only that the right person is being accused of a crime NOT whether or not a crime occurred.

Your disbelief of a woman being raped has nothing to do with presumption of innocence. You can presume that the accused isn't the person that raped her, but no, it is cruel and inhuman to disbelieve an allegation from any woman that she was raped. Claiming that disbelieving a woman alleging she has been raped AT ALL BY ANYONE as being politically correct is the most vile and disgusting excrement I have ever read even at FREE REPUBLIC! So you're saying that if you are ever raped it's just perfectly ok with you that after suffering such a traumatic experience that NOBODY believes you??? BULL!


lizzy (1000+ posts) Fri May-05-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Exactly. My attitude toward rape allegations also changed after the
Duke Lacrosse case. I was pro-prosecution in most cases, and in rape allegations, I was inclined to believe the woman, and not the man.
But like I said, no more.
Pardon me if I don't trust that prosecutors are looking for the truth right now.
Pardon me if I am going to be suspicious when a woman alleges rape, and want to have some evidence before I decide that a bastard should be hanged for raping her.


lizzy (1000+ posts) Fri May-05-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. I was inclined to believe women in general. Not her in particular.
Edited on Fri May-05-06 01:52 PM by lizzy
But as of now-forget it. The defendant is presumed innocent until there is a trial, where he could be proven guilty-or not.
I am going to stick to the presumption of innocence. Actually, that should be a PC thing to do. So, WTF should it be a problem for anyone here?


lizzy (1000+ posts) Fri May-05-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I am not defending anyone. But you are automatically assuming
Edited on Fri May-05-06 12:27 PM by lizzy
there must be a rapist, regardless of any actual evidence.
Do you in fact know there was a rape?
If you are freaking going to expose someone, don't you think that maybe you should at least wait and see if the facts support the allegations?


lizzy (1000+ posts) Fri May-05-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I guess you are now ready to hang that guy from the tree too?
Talk about a rush to judgment.
Do you in fact know there was a rape?


There is simply no way in the world a woman who is vulnerable to rape herself would ever feel this way... NO WAY.

[NaturalHigh]

52. Oh, Lizzy...

You know you are going to get flamed for that one. The skip the trial, hang the bastards crowd will be livid, because we all know that false allegations of rape are an urban legend.

I'm like you, though. When I first heard about the Duke lacrosse case, I was appalled that anyone would do such a terrible thing. Then, when the facts started to come out, I realized it was all political and racial. I really do think the stripper who made the accusations should be prosecuted for her lies, but we all know that won't happen.

[LisaL]

55. Exactly. My attitude toward rape allegations also changed after the

Duke Lacrosse case. I was pro-prosecution in most cases, and in rape allegations, I was inclined to believe the woman, and not the man.
But like I said, no more.
Pardon me if I don't trust that prosecutors are looking for the truth right now.
Pardon me if I am going to be suspicious when a woman alleges rape, and want to have some evidence before I decide that a bastard should be hanged for raping her.
If I am going to be flamed for it-so be it.

[Moosepoop]

61. Funny, I thought your attitude toward rape allegations changed

after a person close to you was misidentified as a rapist, and was only cleared when the real rapist was caught.
Wasn't that what you posted on another thread?

[LostinVA]

70. Yup, that was what was posted on another thread earlier this week

Hell, maybe even last week. All the rape threads are running together...

[LisaL]

72. I never claimed that person was close to me.

It was someone that went into the same high school as myself, not a relative.
By the way, police tried to frame him, and made him confess.
Thankfully, the real rapist was caught, or he would have ended up in prison.
But since it wasn't someone close to me, it didn't affect me that much.

[Moosepoop]

74. You're right.

You didn't say he was close to you, you said it was someone you knew (I looked it up). Mea culpa.

You then went on about how this had ruined his life for a time, and how he went through hell before the real perp was caught. This was in a thread where you were carrying on with multiple posts about false rape allegations , and you used your classmate's experience to back it all up.

But, it didn't affect you much, and has no bearing on how you view rape cases. Right.

[LisaL]

76. I didn't dwell on the story, as the person was not a close friend

or a relative, and it happened years ago.
The Duke rape allegations brought back memories about someone in my high school being falsely accused or rape, and the horrible effect it had on his life. That person was mis-identified by a victim in a line up consisting of male students in our high school-sounds familiar, anyone?
Then he was arrested, and police made him confess and tried to frame him. It went on for a period of time, and police kept harassing him, up until the real serial rapist was caught. By the way, that rapist did not go to my high school.
I remembered that story because of certain similarities to the Duke rape case, but I didn't dwell on it at all over the years.
What exactly is so difficult to understand?

[TorchTheWitch]

119. And what if it were you?

"I was always inclined to believe the woman's allegations.
But no more.
Frankly, if she says it happened, and he says it didn't-why should I believe her and not him?
Is her word any more valuable than his?"

Would you prefer to be disbelieved until evidence came out that proved you were raped?

Imagine that you are violently forcibly raped and no one believes you... not your family, not your friends, not the police, not anyone. Are you saying that just because you were raped you aren't deserving of the benefit of the doubt? That it would be just fine by you if after the trauma you had just suffered everyone just automatically assumed you were a liar and they wouldn't believe otherwise until you proved it?

[NaturalHigh]

62. It's also comforting to know...

that plenty of people don't care about a trial or guilt or innocence; they just want someone to go to jail, evidence be damned.

[LostinVA]

69. Tea spewed all over my monitor n/t

[Pastiche423]

71. For me, it was

chocolate milk.

[LostinVA]

82. hehehehehe

[obnoxiousdrunk]

73. Looks like

"that person" is back. It's all your's now.

[LostinVA]

81. Hmmm... may I return that gift?

[timber84]

63. I can't believe I haven't seen the post that says...

"I can't read half of these posts because they are all on ignore yet"

[Ksec]

64. Its a big school

I doubt if the population versus rape accusation is much different than the general populations.

[timber84]

65. The "I hate Duke crowd" will try to refute that.

[Moosepoop]

78. The "I hate Duke" crowd?

I don't think there are many who hate Duke. There are many of us who hate rapists.

[LisaL]

79. Before hating someone, why don't you wait for some evidence

that this person is actually a rapist?
Or does it matter to you?

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

83. Well, pardon me. I was accused of loving all rapists, after all.

And it didn't matter I never stated nothing of the sort.

[meisje]

86. All men should be put to sleep

[Moosepoop]

87. No, but the violent ones should be put away.

Same goes for women.

[autorank]

95. NOW HEAR THIS! Rape threads may cause vicarious trauma.

Vicarious trauma involves a traumatic reaction through witnessing another's trauma. For example, the Oklahoma City bombings were broadcast and rebroadcast after the event. There is some decent research on the viewers. A significant number experienced vicarious trauma. Absent the video, it would not have happened. Oklahoma City is relevant here because, in a sense, everyone in the city within earshot of the federal building was exposed to the initial trauma. Thus when they saw the repeated video, it was vicarious trauma plus the recalling of their original trauma. (There's lots of research on trauma, it's well established, so no yahooism about the validity of this point. Just check out what Iraq has done to participants and their families).

Every time a rape thread is posted in DU, it creates the potential for vicarious trauma that calls up a real trauma given the presence of a high percentage of rape victims in any large group. The behavior of some with nasty challenges to the reality of rape or even the "wait until they're tried" arguments" just exacerbate the impact. Of course, some will say, well rape victims should avoid these threads if it bothers them. In actuality, the ability to stay away when you are taunted with the fact that know nothings are trivializing your experience presents a challenge that some are understandably willing to take up, despite the unpleasant experiences it may call up.

These threads will continue, although the fewer the better. If you're commenting on the issue, denying the reality of the ongoing epidemic of sexual assault or challenging any victim's statements does little good and may do some real harm. Discretion is the better part of valor in these arguments if you're questioning victims or the impact of this crime.

[NaturalHigh]

96. Well then, lets all just agree...

that any man accused of rape is guilty and have him castrated. That's pretty much what a large portion of the crowd wants anyway. Alleged (oops, shouldn't use that word, might cause trauma) victims never lie, and the guy accused did it every time. Who knows what else the sorry bastard did? False allegations of rape are an urban legend. Tawana Brawley was a myth invented by white misogynist tools of the patriarchy. Did I cover everything?

[autorank]

97. Nice cat...

User NaturalHigh in quotes""...ME, ALL CAPS.

"that any man accused of rape is guilty and have him castrated."

NOPE, I DIDN'T SUGGEST THAT.

"That's pretty much what a large portion of the crowd wants anyway."

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY EVIDENCE TO THAT EFFECT.

"Alleged victims never lie, and the guy accused did it every time. Who knows what else the sorry bastard did?"

THERE IS MORE REASON NOT TO REPORT THAN THERE IS TO LIE BY A LONG SHOT. WITH REGARD TO LIES, THESE OCCUR BUT, GIVEN THE NASTINESS THE INVESTIGATIVE AND COURT PROCESS INCURS, IT'S A HIGH PRICE TO PAY. IT'S RARE. ASK ANY 10 BRIGHT PEOPLE IN FRONT LINE LAW ENFORCEMENT OR EMERGENCY CARE.

"False allegations of rape are an urban legend. Tawana Brawley was a myth invented by white misogynist tools of the patriarchy. Did I cover everything?"

YOU SET THINGS UP SO THAT I'M A CASTRATION SUPPORTING MEMBER OF A MOB INSISTING THAT EVERY ACCUSED RAPIST IS GUILTY. THEN YOU HAUL OUT TAWANA BRAWLEY TO PROVE YOUR POINT...WHAT POINT? SHE LIED AND, GUESS WHAT? THIS IS PARADIGMATIC FOR THOSE FEW CASES WHERE THERE ARE MOTIVATIONS TO LIE ABOUT SEXUAL ASSAULT. SHE HAD A REASON, THE GREATER GOOD AND GLORY OF HERSELF AND HER ILL INTENDED INFLUENCERS AND SUPPORTERS. NOT MANY OTHERS IN THIS CATEGORY.

My post is a factual description of a process that is documented and that can be inferred as taking place here. Your choice to participate in that process follows information provided on the consequences.

[NaturalHigh]

99. If people are innocent of the crime, they deserve to be defended.

That's what I've always believed. You imply that they shouldn't be because it might cause someone "trauma."

Yes, I was over the top in my previous post. I intended to be. It's called sarcasm. Maybe I should have posted the appropriate "smiley."

No, you didn't suggest castration of accused rapists, but you're not paying attention if you think that's not the sentiment of a large part of what I call the "pro-stripper" crowd in the Duke Case. No, I haven't seen those exact words used; it's not hard to read between the lines.

The Tawana Brawley case is evidence that false accusations do happen. I don't doubt that they are the exception and not the norm, but I also don't see why they should be ignored to avoid causing someone "trauma." That's a ridiculous notion, in my opinion.

Rape is a terrible crime, one of the most brutal and degrading I can imagine, and it should be punished severely. When the evidence doesn't seem to support claims of rape (as in the Duke lacrosse case), though, I don't see what harm comes from pointing that out.

I would never want to traumatize someone who has been the victim of rape, but I'm also not willing to muzzle myself when what I believe to be false allegations are made. While I don't doubt that your post was written with sincere intentions, I find the notion that questioning rape allegations is somehow taboo to be wrong.

[autorank]

101. I still like your cat...

"The Tawana Brawley case is evidence that false accusations do happen. I don't doubt that they are the exception and not the norm..."

We agree!

While I don't doubt that your post was written with sincere intentions, I find the notion that questioning rape allegations is somehow taboo to be wrong.

I didn't say it was taboo, I do think that the detriments far outweigh the benefits. Here's why. Discussing this type of subject on a public forum really goes nowhere since the evidence is, by necessity, incomplete and highly personalized. Staking out a case on guilt/innocence is difficult but staking out a case on innocence has clear consequences given the information I presented. What I provided is really neutral information unless you choose to act on it. There are many other areas of discussion where direct evidence and inference are much more powerful and meaningful and where the debate actually uplifts. I just don't see these debates as uplifting anything. I am NOT implying that you, in particular, do this with the intention of creating the result I describe. The result does occur, nevertheless, regardless of you intention.

My cat...:)

[LisaL]

102. If you don't want to discuss the case, then perhaps

you shouldn't. Because suggesting that no one should question the allegations because it can do some sort of harm is not going to work.
After all, one can make this argument about pretty much anything, and in fact, republicans made this exact argument on a number of occasions that had nothing to do with rape.

[autorank]

104. I've never voted for a Republican in my life. And no, you cannot

make this argument about "pretty much anything;" an entirely baseless assertion.

I'm not discussing this case because I think that the discussion of such a narrow topic without the appropriate level of information is useless as to the judicial process and harmful to members of our own community. To anticipate your objection, I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose. You certainly are moving mountains to avoid facing up to the simple but important set of facts I presented, IMHO.

[LisaL]

107. If you are not discussing this case, what exactly are you doing

on this thread? Arguing that no one else should be able to discuss it either? Do you think rape allegations should be taboo on public forums, or what?

[autorank]

112. I think discussing the case on DU knowing it bothers others and that

it's not political at all is offensive to many and productive for none.

[NaturalHigh]

115. Not everything at DU is political.

There is a forum, General Discussion: Political, which is strictly for politics.

[NaturalHigh]

116. I like your cat too.

Of course, I pretty much love all cats. I just don't agree with your premise that these rape allegations should not be discussed and debated.

BTW, the cat above is not actually mine. That particular cat is one of the avatars offered by DU. One of these days, I'm going to get a picture of one of mine on here.

[TorchTheWitch]

113. You really need to be more careful of what you say

If people are innocent of the crime, they deserve to be defended.

No. ALL people accused of a crime deserve to be defended whether they are innocent or guilty. I find it odd that you use the word "if" in your statement. "If" someone is innocent isn't going to be known until after the trial. You can choose to tend toward belief in guilt or not on one side or the other, but knowing whether or not someone is guilty or innocent only comes after the trial when all the evidence and testimony has been laid out.

Yes, I was over the top in my previous post. I intended to be. It's called sarcasm. Maybe I should have posted the appropriate "smiley."

These types of sarcastic statements intending to be over the top whether or not they have a sarcasm tag attached are very cruel. I think you should examine how someone here who has been raped or is close to someone who has would feel to read some of the disgusting remarks that have been made about rape in general before you say them. Some of your prior postings which may have been intended as sarcasm make people cringe with utter disgust because of how cruel it is to publically say something like that when you KNOW that there are many rape victims and people close to rape victims here who may be reading these remarks.

I would never want to traumatize someone who has been the victim of rape, but I'm also not willing to muzzle myself when what I believe to be false allegations are made.

You and several other people ARE traumatizing people who have been the victims of rape and the people close to those victims. I've gotten several PM's from these same people - people I don't even know and have never spoken to before - PM's filled with anguish and pain and anger and defeat because these remarks make them feel they are reliving not only the rape again but the raking over the coals they got when they tried to get justice for it. Put yourself in a victim's shoes before you type and think about how it would make them feel to read these things. If you sincerely don't want to traumatize these people then DON'T, and think before you post.

Rape is a terrible crime, one of the most brutal and degrading I can imagine, and it should be punished severely.

Then don't generalize. Stick to the FACTS regarding the specific case itself on which to base your conclusions. Given the content of your postings, never in my wildest imaginings would I ever believe that you cared one wit about anyone who was raped. If you sincerely believe that rape is a terrible, brutal and degrading crime then you need to be a lot more careful about what you say. I'm not the only one who was beginning to wonder if you yourself were a rapist based on a lot of your posts, but you aren't the only one.

While I don't doubt that your post was written with sincere intentions, I find the notion that questioning rape allegations is somehow taboo to be wrong.

In a SPECIFIC case, I can see reason to question an allegation based on FACTS, but when you generalize and start throwing out statistics and examples in other cases and using information from the defense who we KNOW lies, distorts and spins information in order to sway public opinion and harrass and frighten the accusor into dropping the case, you're being prejudiced. In the Duke case, the fact is we don't know much of anything. All we know is there was an allegation made by a stripper hired to dance at a party consisting of Duke lacrosse players that she was raped at the party, and the SANE reported that she had physical injuries and other emotional signs and symptoms that are consistent with being forcibly sexual assaulted/raped. That's ALL we know for sure. Everything else is either speculation and/or prejudice. It may be interesting to sift through all the other information and try to piece together what may or may not have happened in the case, but it is STILL speculation.

The Duke case should NEVER had been made public. I'm pissed as hell at the prosecutor for jumping in front of the cameras to make it so which invited the defense to retaliate. It is likely that had he not jumped in front of the cameras first, the defense would have anyway since they usually do (after all, it's their job to do so). But that doesn't excuse the prosecutor for starting the ball rolling on destroying this woman's life. Should it turn out that she is absolutely proven to have made a false allegation that she was raped, then I would have no pity for the media frenzy afterward as she would have brought it on herself. However, none of us is in any position to come to any conclusion about what may or may not have happened to her until after the evidence and testimony is laid out at trial.

There has been one beneficial side effect of this case being made public and that is it has gotten the general public focused on the crime of rape, how terrible it is, how rampant it is, how something needs to be done to correct the problem, how the laws need to be changed to encourage people who have been raped to seek justice and to protect those who have been raped from hurtful allegations of disbelief and the probing into their personal lives as ANYONE regardless of their life style or sexual experiences or other problems of their past bare no relation to whether or not they may have been raped. However, this beneficial side effect should NEVER have come at the cost of this individual woman's personal and emotional life.

I have seen no postings here that the accused are guilty. I have seen plenty of postings that people believe that SOMEONE is but not specifically the accused and not specifically anyone at that party. However, I have seen a horrendous amount of postings claiming the accusor is guilty of false rape allegation and lying and she should be prosecuted. At this point, none of us can say that and shouldn't. AT THIS POINT, to either insist the accused are guilty of rape or that the accuser is guilty of false accusation is prejudice and has no place on a progressive forum. Prejudiced thinking and behavior is for freepers... it doesn't belong here.

[NaturalHigh]

114. Torch, it's been a long day...

and I'm not going to spend the time to answer everything you put in your post. I'll just say this. I have deep sympathy for anyone who has been the victim of rape, and I hold deep scorn for all rapists. The reason my comments in this case have been particularly pointed is that I don't believe for one minute that this woman was raped. I fully believe that she made up these charges in hopes of getting a monetary settlement from the defendants. I think I have stuck to this case and not made any generalizations about alleged rape victims, except for the smartass comment above about Tawana Brawley, which was obviously sarcasm.

I'm not going to be muzzled because you or others on this board don't think what I post is politically correct. If some of my comments have made people cringe, then those people are being overly sensitive. Never once have I "smeared" a rape victim. Questioning the veracity of this woman's claims is not a smear. Stating my opinion that this woman's identity should be made public is not a smear.

Obviously our philosophies differ, but I respect your right to express your opinion. I would appreciate the same from you.

[autorank]

122. "I believe...I fully believe...I'm not going to be muzzled..."

You belief are really pointless on this case, it's not even to the level of Monday quaterbacking;
and nobody wants to "muzzle you." Just be quiet.

[NaturalHigh]

125. Why should I be quiet?

Is there something wrong with giving a different point of view? Oh, that's right - "trauma" might result from the people who don't want to hear it. :eyes:

[LisaL]

98. You know what-there are two sides to every story.

And I am perfectly willing to hear the accused side of the story.
I don't particularly care that you apparently think nobody should ever question the allegations of rape, because that could do damage to rape victims. Our laws do not work that way.
Defendant deserves a benefit of the doubt, and here you are arguing that he does not.
Sorry, not in this country.

[autorank]

103. See above...plus

This is the wrong forum for this particularized type of argument. The evidence pool is too small. Even a subject which has great interest to me, election fraud, has ton's of data out there to look at despite the active avoidance of the subject by the Ostrich faction of MSM, the Republicans, etc.

You said "I don't particularly care that you apparently think nobody should ever question the allegations of rape, because that could do damage to rape victims. " "apparently" is an incorrect inference. I'm committed to a fair justice system. I'm a supporter of The Innocence Project. I care about the DU members here and much less about the hypothesized arguments concerning strangers. I see this as a self supporting community, where disagreement takes place but not recursive irritations and worse when the nature of that irritation is known.

You say: "Defendant deserves a benefit of the doubt, and here you are arguing that he does not."

That's really over the line, completely. There was nothing in my post other than a description of a real world phenomena that would impact DUers. Now you've turned me into a Judge Dred. I'm talking about DU, not courts. What an inference! Amazing the leap to get there.

To paraphrase you, sorry not on this forum, ease up with the relentlessness about hypotheticals that just get people upset (not that the people around here can't handle themselves, just that it's rude to continue on and on and on.

[Jazz2006]

105. Hey,

re: the Innocence Project.... glad to hear that you're a supporter. I have been personally and intimately involved with the Innocence Project since second year law school.

I'm pretty new here and I've made it a point not to post on these Duke rape threads for reasons quite unrelated to that, but just wanted to say hi and let you know that at least some of us who read these threads without posting on them appreciate your posts.

:toast:

[autorank]

106. Very Welcome to DU!!!

Hi to you too, I'll see you elsewhere, I'm sure. Keep up your good work.
Our justice system needs people with a higher commitment than just winning.

Here's a fellow lawyer on DU, I wrote this article about his work.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00233.htm His name is Land Shark aroun here.

Enjoy!!!

:toast:

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. Unfortunately, following your advice creates an unjust echo chamber

Either we shouldn't talk about rape, or we should be prepared to discuss it openly, including the possibility that the accused may be innocent.

Rape discussions suffer from a lack of objectivity.

Your analogy with the OKC bombing is apt. Was the trial of Tim McVeigh an unnecessary trauma for the vicarious victims? What if the initial suspect was someone allied with PETA? Does a search for true justice, not to be confused with random retribution, justify the trauma of talking about it?

FWIW, In this case, the alleged victim's story seems credible to me.

[alittlelark]

100. Perhaps we can relagate college rape in the USA to STANDARDS

Uh, college rape is a nasty foul STANDARD in our society. Been there. Done that. He was put away for 25 years. He was put away for that long because of the 4 women who identified him, but were too scared to DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!


That's why he wasn't safely locked up when I came across him.


He was some sort of religious leader, and a FUCKED UP ASSHOLE.



20 years + out of college, but it's still the same shit.