Why I sometimes wonder about America.

[Oerdin]

I don't care what sort of position people take but I do demand that they back up their position with some sort of logical reason and some sort of facts. More and more I'm not seeing Americans do that.

Case in point. Tonight I went out with a friend and met up with another poster from Apolyton who was visiting San Diego. We had a few beers and generally had a good time when the topic of conversation turned to Iraq. I was asked, as an Iraq vet, what I thought about the current situation and if things were going well. My response was generally pessimistic because, I explained, the number of attacks were considerablely up over last year and the year before, the number of Iraqis killed in sectarian violence was up considerablely, and because the administration didn't seem to have a plan to deal with either of these facts. Brundlefly (an Apolyton poster) then asked me what I thought had gone wrong.

I responded that we went in with to few troops, that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Shensiki had said we'd need 500,000 troops to control the country after the war and that Rumsfield & Cheney had slashed that number to 150,000 for political reasons (I.E. half a million would be to unpopular so a smaller number was used because it was politically easier). I said that politicians had meddled with sound military leadership for political reasons and this directly resulted in the looting and lawlessness after the invasion and then the administration didn't fund reconstruction any where near enough much less to the level Iraqi civilians expected. For the first year the Iraqis basically gave us a pass and decided to give us time to get the electricity working, the water working, and to restore law and order but it was only after a year of not having these basic needs met that people started to turn against us and the insurgency really took off. These are well established facts. The reconstruction aid didn't really start flowing until after the first year was over and it was in response to the growing insurgency and even then it was to little to late. We had already lost the trust of most of the people because they'd given us a chance and we hadn't delivered.

I must point out that this was a private conversation between Brundlefly and I which was occurring when a drunken man butted in and loudly said I was "full of shit". I simply looked at the drunkard who was butting into a private conversation and then he demanded to know "Have you ever been overseas?!" to which I responded that I had been over seas many times and asked to what he was referring. The drunken man then said "I mean to Iraq! Have you ever been to Iraq?” to which I responded that I had indeed spent 10 months in Iraq in 2004. The drunken man then said "Oh, yeah?! Where were you and with what unit" to which I told him exactly what unit I was with, when I was there, and which cities I had served in. I was told that since I wasn't combat arms I didn't know "shit". I told him it is even worse I was a reservist to which he said “then you’re a shit bag”. I pointed out that I’d served for 10 years, four active, and had been to Kosovo, Bosnia, and Iraq but he was unmoved.

This drunk then declared that he was a Navy seal, that he knew all about Iraq, and that "Iraq is going great". I asked him where he'd served in Iraq and when he'd served there; which he refused to anwser. Instead he asked "Why'd you join the military anyway? You just joined to get an education didn't you? You didn’t actually want to go to war and servce this country." I told him that I'd joined partially to pay for college but also out of a sense of patriotic duty; that I didn’t have to go to Iraq and instead actually extended my enlistment so that my friends would not go to Iraq without me.
To which he asked "And you think everything is going to hell in Iraq?" and I said "I think things are getting steadily worse in Iraq, there's an even chance that the country will devolve into civil war soon, and that we should study the mistakes made so we don't repeat them.” The drunken "Navy Seal" (I'm not sure he was one but since there is a Navy Seal training base in San Diego it is possible he was one) simply said that reservists don't know shit, that Iraq was going great, and that George Bush was a great President.

I then said "Well, I'd like to learn why you feel Iraq is going so well and I'd like to hear if you think any serious mistakes were made.” I then offered to once again shake his hand. He flatly refused, said I didn't know shit, and then claimed liberals were destroying America.

WTF? I think I’m pretty open minded and I don’t think I said anything outrageous or untrue but if this is what America has degenerated into then we’re fucked. Is it to much to ask that someone back up what they say with a few facts and even the tiniest shred of logic? If Iraq is going so well and the administration has done such a wonderful job then surely he could have explained why deaths and attacks are way, way up. Surely he could have explained why 80%+ of Iraqis want us gone and why sectarian violence seems to be spiraling out of control.

I can’t help but feel this is part of the Rush Limbaughization and the Fox News-ification of America. The victory of ignorant loud mouths over reasonable discourse and logical discussion of the facts.

[Oversea Visitor]

1. Wow

you found a drunk bushbots.

[Greyhound]

2. A sad, but accurate observation, I'm afraid.

I wish I could say it is limited to this type of asshole, but they're everywhere now.

[Zookeeper]

3. I'd like to think you encountered a drunk in a bar...

rather than someone who really represents "America." One of the reason barflies are barflies is because they aren't comfortable with the complexity of the real world.

So, I agree with you about the "Rush Limbaughization and the Fox News-ification of America," but I think your "Navy Seal" was just a loud-mouthed drunk.

BTW, thank you for your service!

[cpousnret]

4. interesting thoughts,thanks

first of all navy seals don`t around bragging and telling where they have and what they are doing,most allow for people to have their opinions on issues thats what they are fighting for,while they have been known to consume alcohol they tend to be reserve well intentioned people serving mankind and above all highly professional.this guy was probably some wanna be asshole that lost his nuts a long time age.war is not fun,diplomacy first,when all else fails then think war.bj,cpousnret.riverrine force 19,peace

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. You were exceedingly polite to a drunk asshole

I commend you for your grace in the face of such a rude onslaught.

BTW, he was no military vet. Just another chickenhawk piece of shit who likes to pretend he isn't a big coward.

Thanks for your service! :patriot:

[stellanoir]

6. thanks for your service

I know that sounds prosaic yet I truly mean it. You went and did your best and seem to have remarkably survived with your humanity intact even if the mission was entirely misguided.

I honestly feel that dolts such as the one you unfortunately encountered number in less than 20% of the general population. Though they exist nonetheless. The polls and the vote tallies are untrue.

There is more sophisticated intelligence in the pinky toenail of most folks than in all of our so-called intellgence agencies. I have a friend who works for the FBI and she assures me that this is true. It's crazy.

Keep the faith and don't let the suckers get you down.

thanks again.

[drduffy]

7. credibility

my 2bits is that you are right in the Rush Limpballs/Fox comment. But this guy may also simply have been the jerk that he appeared to be with minimal brain (unable to look critically at events and certainly not at himself).

But I also don't think one has to have been in Iraq, or even overseas to be able to provide reasonable and germane comments and even analysis about Iraq, the war or anything else. To assert that one has to have 'been there' as that guy did (and in his sorry case, to not only have been there but to have been there as a 'Seal') to be credible in what one says is a false premise. It is also patently false that having been there (as a Seal or otherwise) necessarily provides one with any special additional credibility..... because certainly in his case it provided none.

And as far as liberals go..... this one hopes we destroy the Imperium..... and bring back the Republic. A Republic that would not conduct an illegal war .... or any war without a damn good reason. Oil, control of the middle east, and achieving global hegemony don't cut it in my book. That's not worth even one Iraqi child's life let alone the 100 thousand + we have likely killed (Lancet, 2004) with our bombs etc. Nor the thousands of our soldiers killed/wounded and the Iraqi mothers and fathers.I don't like what the US has become. For me, the US is beginning to slide ....no, - has slid - into the 'evil' category or countries.

[rman]

8. What had gone wrong:

invaded the wrong country for the wrong reasons.

That drunk 'Navy seal' is obviously a liar.

[pretzel4gore]

9. russ limbaughization and foxnews-ification of america...

i wonder how much this ignorance is going to cost?...some of these guys will become urban terrorists of the eric rudolph/fred phelps type, and other rightwingers in positions of authorituh (it's comical seeing the 'association of police chiefs' call for gun control, or the end of the futile 'war on drugs' which their political media pals then are forced to ignore!) are in the front lines fighting against them and dying at their hands....
too bad someone didn't do a study of how much mediawhoring cost (tim mcveigh was inspired in his rage by hate radio, for excample) in terms of taxmoney wasted - rush limbaugh cost every human being on earth MONEY, more then we can ever know.....

[AspenRose]

10. Pretzel you are sooooo right

When the Dems regain control, these 'morans' are going to create little ('little?') rebellion fires all over the country.

In my mind, a lot of these types are more of a threat, terrorist-wise.

[greekspeak]

11. When they DO use logic or a framework, it is often ludicrous

I was stopped right before November Travesty 2004 by a RWnut and asked why I had a Kerry sticker on my vehicle. No other person with a Kerry sticker would tell her why they wanted Kerry for president (?) Well, in about 10 seconds the conversation turns to Iraq. I stated facts and figures and she pooh-poohed them before delivering the logic that the Middle East was like an onion and Iraq was just the outer layer. I think that at the "core" of this "onion" the whole region had been converted to Christianity and was more or less a satellite of the U.S. Her expert testimony was based on the fact that her husband was career military--no facts or figures. She did not need them. She had "been there." When she found out that I study religion for a living, she pretty much shut up and rambled on about her trip through ruins in Turkey.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. Never never never

argue with a drunk.

The End.