why is it that immigrants are supposedly taking "black jobs"?

[ulysses]

Has America, in its generosity, set aside all those day laborer and agricultural jobs for African-American youths and I didn't hear about it?

Or is it that we're - again - getting taken for a ride?

Think, people. This is classic stuff - distract the peons by setting worker against worker and one race against another.

[Blue_Tires]

1. yeah, i remember when Fox made that quote

that didn't sit well with me, either

[Kutjara]

2. Sort of a tacit admission...

...that national education policy has been aimed at creating a nice underclass of African-Americans, who are only qualified for menial jobs. Then along come these evil aliens and swipe the jobs from 'our' peons.

Factor that into the perennial argument on how African-Americans are somehow genetically 'less able.' I remember the Third Reich banned teaching reading to Jews in Poland and the teaching of only limited skills to other Poles. Looks like chemistry and rocketry weren't the only things we learned from the Nazis.

[ulysses]

5. a fair analysis, imo.

[DODI]

10. I had heard an example of what illegal labor was doing to

the wages for tradespeople in the LA area -- the example they had was sheet rockers -- which in LA, according to the report I hears, is dominated by African-Americans -- many illegals have come into the area and have lowered the wage for sheet rockers from about $18 an hour to $12. I do not consider trades people to be menial labor -- my point being that it is not just non-skilled labor that is suffering from illegal labors -- or more accurately -- illegal employers.

[Kutjara]

14. True.

My brother-in-law works in the construction industry in England. The recent addition of new Eastern European countries to the European Union has resulted in an influx of labor from these countries into countries that offer higher wage rates (such as the UK, Germany and France). This has naturally had the tendency to drive wage rates down for both skilled and unskilled labor.

The difference, of course, is that these workers are not illegal. They are perfectly entitled to do what they are doing. Over time, labor migrations of this kind within the EU will work to stabilise wages and prices across the community, to the current imbalance is a temporary one, at best.

Nevertheless, my brother-in-law voted for the BNP (the ultra-right neo-nazi British National Party) candidate in the recent local council elections, because of the Party's zero immigration and mandatory repatriation policies. Many of his colleagues voted similarly and the same picture is emerging across Europe.

The arguments across Europe (and here in the US as well) are being framed in such a way that it seems the ordinary person faces two stark choices;

(1) Seeing their standard of living steadily erode;
(2) Becoming a racist xenophobe.

As far as I know, there is noone in the mainstream parties presenting a credible alternative to these extremes. The longer this vacuum lasts, the more ground the forces of hate will gain.

[ulysses]

15. they're not going to, either.

As far as I know, there is noone in the mainstream parties presenting a credible alternative to these extremes.

If we want change on this issue, we have to be the ones to force the ones with the power to address the root causes instead of the symptoms.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Is employment or unemployment a better springboard for education?

If parents lack the resources to send the kids to school, ability is irrelevant.

[Igel]

36. Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc. n/t

[Imagevision]

3. umm... the blacks aren't stuck on stupid!!!

[ulysses]

12. ?

Not sure I get your meaning. :shrug:

[RagingInMiami]

4. Because if anybody is going to be at the bottom of the economic barrel

it's going to the descendents of our slaves, not a bunch of non-English speaking immigrants. And it is also a good counter talking point for those who get accused of being racist.

"What me, racist, hell, I'm just mad that the Mexicans are taking jobs away from the Blacks."

[ulysses]

6. excellent points

particularly concerning the counter talking point. We need to dig a little deeper with our questions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. They are also spreading diseases and stealing our SS numbers!!

Be afraid, be very afraid!! :scared:

[ulysses]

8. the more things change, my friend.

:argh:

[Dr. Jones]

22. To a certain degree, both are true.

Don't have to be afraid, just be realistic. And realistically illegal immigration comes with a whole slew of these types of problems.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Fine then, let's do be realistic

and point the finger of blame where it belongs.

[Chulanowa]

9. It's called pandering

The Right-Wing has, for the past two Decades, been trying to wash away the taint of white hoods and nooses from their "image". Of course, they're very bad at this.

What you are looking at, is an attempt by the right to piss off black people so that they will vote Republican on the sole issue of Immigration - nevermind that it's the Republicans putting forth that demeaning "guest worker" program that would have had the same net effect on the people they're trying to fool now.

Just more shamefulness for the GOP

[ulysses]

11. the GOP has a minority problem.

I thought they were trying to appeal to the Latino vote. They don't know what the hell they're trying to do.

[guinivere]

13. It appears they gave up on the Latinos

and want to try to rope the black voters in.


Shameless indeed.

[CatWoman]

16. Uly

when was the last time you saw a white garbage man?

[ulysses]

17. last week.

I'm not being flip, Cat. They tend to be white out here. I've seen white garbage men in town as well, although I'll admit that I've seen more folks of color doing the same job there.

You know the area in which I teach. I spent a little time after school a couple of weeks ago helping some of my kids look for summer jobs online. They're very keen to work, but when we came across some agricultural jobs, they very loudly announced that (and I'll paraphrase) "this young black man will in no manner go to work picking fruit on a farm, although it must be lovely".

I don't say that to demean them - this early middle age white man isn't going out to pick fruit either and never did. What I mean is twofold: why is it accepted that "black jobs" are those that involve backbreaking menial labor - honorable as that work is, why isn't a "black job" being an eye doctor? and why are we letting the GOP set African-American workers against Latino workers while "free" trade laws rip the rug out from under working folks of all races?

[murray hill farm]

18. It is an unbelievable racist statement..on all counts!

either way..divide and keep the status quo for the employers who so enjoy paying below min wage...cause...garsh...if they have to hire black legals, then they will have to pay them more. I promise you, there would not be so many illegals in the usa if it did not soooooooo benifit the american employer.

[vogonjiltz]

28. Just the other,

but I live in Chicago, even garbage man is a politicized job. I could live with being a gatbage man here though, union wages and beni's.

[Solon]

33. I was one, and I'm white.

Look at my OP on the General Discussion page, I talk about all sorts of stuff I did, can't right now due to injury.

[Mugu]

40. Friday morning 6:30 AM. N/T

[MadMaddie]

19. This was on the evening news tonight

The Minute Men are now targeting black communities...they say to engage and include the blacks in this fight against immigrants...really they want to enrage the blacks against the immigrants....

This is the same Rovian plan...go into a community and poisen it with bullshit rhetoric and divide and conquer tactics....unfortunately the black community is suceptible to this kind tactic.....

it happened the same way with the gay marriage issue....Rovian tactic...go into the black churches....

[ulysses]

20. bizarro world

Neo-Nazis recruiting in black neighborhoods. You can't write fiction like this.

[Nikia]

21. For a couple of reasons

It is true that there are many middle class blacks and professionals.
On the otherhand, a higher percentage of the black population when comapred to the white population is less educated, poor, or has served time in prision. For example, there is a higher black drop rate than there is for whites. Prejudice and discrimination is also still widespread so things like a prision sentence and not having a high school diploma make blacks even less likely to be hired than whites with the same characteristics or even college diplomasas, for those will train the right person jobs . As a result of this, less educated blacks from poorer backgrounds are more likely to end up doing the jobs that allegedly "No Americans want to do." than whites in areas where blacks compromise of a significant part of the local population. While few blacks may want to be migrant farms workerers, there are many more blacks in fields like domestic service and construction.
Immigrants do displace and lower wages for all Americans with less education and poor backgrounds. It affects the black community more though because there is a higher percent of blacks with those characteristics and that discrimination makes the problem worse.

[nolabels]

27. But this would only be possible because corporations and the..........

politicians they helped install for all them years have decimated the working class and unions to a point where up is down and right is left. We are at a point now that corporate management is the weak link and in the next few years these type of developments should prove to be interesting

[Igel]

38. There are other possibilities, to be sure.

I went with kids whose jobs would also likely (if not for poor English-language skills on the part of most illegal, and some legal, immigrants) be taken by immigrants.

They rejected the idea of college, out of hand. Had no use for it at all. They hated high school. They mocked and criticized the kids that were college-bound. Hundreds of kids in my graduating class, and while I don't know what they did after leaving high school, my guidance counselor was complaining that fewer than a dozen took the SATs, and only 4 had transcripts sent to colleges. Pushing down towards 1-2% of my graduating class going to college; more died from car crashes (drunk and high) my senior year. The high school valedictorian in my class had taken general math 10 and several years of metal shop--but never took algebra or the stand-alone biology or chemistry classes. I took the HS chemistry class; in college we covered the material from a year of high school chemistry in the first two weeks.

Nothing corporate. It was cultural. You say you want to go to college, you're ridiculed as a nerd or wimp, and the teachers suddenly thought they had a reason to teach. The brave kids mocked the teachers and didn't do their assignments; studs did that *and* were on the football or track team. Community service was for gays and girls. AP classes ... unheard of. We got new teachers that wanted to teach, and they left as soon as they had seniority. Yes, I'm blaming the victim, because they weren't victims, they were the educational equivalent of suicides. Difficult classes were offered every year, and nobody signed up for them, so they were cancelled.

My suburban entering high school class was 95% white, all the 'non-whites' being black; my graduating class was over 98% white--some of the blacks (and fewer of the whites) dropped out before their senior year. There were only a few fundamentalist Xians.

Five years after I left the area was gentrified, I was the trailing edge of the boomers, and when the parents retired they frequently moved, opening housing to younger, middle-class parents; same racial breakdown, the same classes offered, some of the same teachers--but the students signed up for them. Instead of parents pushing for a new race track for the track team, they pushed for AP calculus, and got both--AP calculus costs about the same to teach as general math. Per-student spending didn't change; but within 10 years a third of the kids were going to college.

[Dr. Jones]

23. Because it's true.

Both black and white have very good reason to be pissed off at the usurping of their jobs. Both are battling this in construction, factory work, service work, agricultural work, etc.

Who do you think the contractors hired for the Katrina cleanup? Not the locals who wanted to get back to work, but lower paid ILLEGALS. So you can see how and why both black and white would be pissed at this.

[Garbo 2004]

25. So did the Minutemen protest against Halliburton that recruited

the undocumented to do the work in NOLA? Or the gov't that gave them the contract and then looked the other way? Where were the Minutemen then? The locals who needed jobs were pissed but I don't recall anyone paying them much mind. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/111505A.shtml

[Ms. Clio]

41. shhhh stop talking sense

that's not part of the script, silly!

[Garbo 2004]

42. Yes, I've noticed that too. n/t

[ny_liberal]

26. Another example

For instance, for decades, hotel, restaurant and janitorial jobs were entry-level jobs held by many black Americans.

And while some might discount the significance of a janitorial job, such positions were eagerly pursued. From 1945 to 1980, janitors earned excellent wages because of their strong union. But in the early 1980s, when an abundant supply of immigrant workers became available, non-union firms hired them at half the going wage. Now, you rarely see a black hotel or restaurant worker.

[treestar]

24. Racist concept on its face - what are "black" jobs?

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Waa?

It's now racist to oppose policies that disproportionately harm US minorities?

Here in the northwest, native americans have traditionally relied upon natural resources-based occupations such as logging, tree planting and fishing. These occupations have been by-and-large displaced by companies which hire illegal workers. As a result, unemployment among native americans has gotten even worse.

[Elwood P Dowd]

31. Many companies here in the south are doing the same thing

They want only immigrants, legal or illegal, because they can pay them the absolute minimum. Five or ten years ago, the majority of the workers doing unskilled labor in the construction, roofing, and landscaping industry were young, African-American males. They made anywhere from $5.15 an hour to $8.00 an hour back then. Some of the better workers would move up the ladder and make over $10.00 an hour or become supervisors. Now, it seems everyone is making the minimum or less (if it's cash under the table).

My neighbor recently had a company re-roof her house. This same company had done an excellent job on another neighbor's house a few years ago. Not one single US citizen was on that crew this time around. The owner of the roofing company says he just can't find workers other than the immigrants. Just can't understand why all the US workers left when he dropped the pay to $5.15 an hour.

Edit to add: $5.15 an hour today is about the same as $3.00 an hour back in the 90s.

[treestar]

32. Waa? Certain jobs are reserved to people of a certain race?

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. No, I'd reserve them for people legally entitled to work here.

The fact that the illicit labor trade has disproportionately hurt our most vulnerable citizens is readily apparent for anyone willing to see the problem.

[KittyWampus]

34. Um, working at Kmart is an ENTRY LEVEL JOB for blacks and youths

Why not stop the kneejerk refutations? You harm your credibility.

Lower wage jobs taken by blacks and youths entering the work force have been taken by Hispanic (illegal?) immigrants. I can think of at least 3 stores where this has happened locally.

BTW, Paul Krugman pointed this out as well. It's a fact. So stop trying to tailor the facts to fit your preconcieved notions.

[Igel]

39. No set asides.

Self-determination. Whether intentional or not.

Some groups have a disproportionate HS drop out rate; some have lower college attendance rates. These young adults get lower-paying, lower-skill jobs. Yet frequently they have high expectations. This leads to a deeply abiding sense of alienation, can lead to anomie, persists intergenerationally, and is really hard to overcome.

Most illegal immigrants don't have a high school diploma. They can only work lower-skill jobs without additional training and which require limited English skills; it's hard for illegal immigrants to get other than on-the-job training.

When I lived in Oregon in the '80s, the generation of adults my age remembered working in the fields during the summer and on weekends, working in fast food, and doing seasonal/temp work in low-skill jobs. But the kids in the '80s disdained the jobs, instead wanting to do office work or acquire skills, be interns, and the like. These became primarily jobs for the poorly educated adults, with a high percentage of minorities than in the general population. But increasingly Spanish-speaking immigrants were showing up and doing the work: they'd work harder (that was the stereotype, at least) and were more flexible and reliable, willing to take seasonal or dirty work and field work for the wages being offered.

It may be classic stuff, but that doesn't mean it's not true.