Vatican's astronomer calls creationism a form of paganism

[Hamlette]

BELIEVING that God created the universe in six days is a form of superstitious paganism, the Vatican astronomer Guy Consolmagno claimed yesterday.

snip

"Knowledge is dangerous, but so is ignorance. That's why science and religion need to talk to each other," he said.

"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006

Religious people making sense...now I've seen it all.

[shadowknows69]

1. Put that in your incense censer

and light it.

[incapsulated]

26. Dayum, that's a good line.

I have nothing further to add.

[BlueJazz]

2. As an Atheist, I find Guy Consolmagno quite refreshing.

In fact, I wouldn't mind having a beer with him..(Ah..Make that Wine, since he's Catholic)

[Lisa]

23. I have it on good authority that he does enjoy the occasional beer

(or did, in grad school!)

[eridani]

32. He liked chatting with Stephen Jay Gould

Still miss him--I think he'd have a few salient words to back up his old pal.

[Maestro]

3. I can't wait to hear what Fundie love children Falwell

and Robertson are going to say about the Vatican now! :rofl:

[xchrom]

4. lol -- well, that will start somebody's pants on fire.

[Faygo Kid]

5. The FReepers will go nuts with this one. I may have to visit.

Nothing more entertaining than the endless evolution vs. creationism debates over there. OK, refighting the Civil War is also a hoot. Get the popcorn started.

[applegrove]

6. I likee!

[kestrel91316]

7. Oh dear. The Christofascists are not going to be happy to hear this.......

[Warpy]

8. Rome makes sense on a lot of subjects

but those celibate old men really need to stop talking about sex. Every time they do, they end up making mugs of themselves and driving more Catholics away from the church.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

27. Re Celibatre old men and sex

"You no playa the game, you no make-a da rules."

Earl Butz, prize-winning bigot and Agriculture secretary for Ronald Reagen

Proof that even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then.

[SoCalDem]

9. Catholicism has never been "bullish" on the bible

:)

[Aviation Pro]

10. Having just read The Da Vinci Code...

...I'm sure there are a lot of pagans who are guffawing at this....

[greenman3610]

11. Hear that? PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN....

it's about the most odious insult you can make
to a Christian. even worse than
"pedophile"..

[misternormal]

19. Yep... Pagan and proud of it... n/t

[lvx35]

24. No, he's just denying the Christianity of the fundies.

And well he should, IMHO. Its time this fight got started...Its good for the church.

[eridani]

33. True, but just about every neopagan I know--

--buys modern science and evolutionary theory.

[lvx35]

42. The classical meaning of paganism is different.

And this is what the church is using. It used to mean any person who wasn't a Christian, Jew, or Muslim....ie faiths not rooted in the old testament, as all those three are...(So it includes buddhists or hindus.) But since the story of genesis is in the old testament, this was intended as a bitchslap to the fundies, basically saying that a conversion to islam or judaism would bring them closer to christianity than they are now.

[GoneOffShore]

12. I like it.

Bet the guy is a Jesuit. They've always had a rep for intellectual rigor.

[madrchsod]

13. who give a fuck what this dickwad has to say

he wouldn`t know who god is even if he/she slapped him upside the head...

[hyphenate]

37. At least the Catholic church

is making a bit more sense than the other sects of so-called "Christianity." In actual fact, it has been among Catholics that some great progressive measures have been passed down. Catholic missionaries, for example, don't blackmail foreigners by telling them that if they don't follow the Xtian religion, they won't get medical care and food. They help first, and then offer their religious views. Still not exactly right, but it's getting there.

[yardwork]

14. As a Pagan I take exception to the Vatican (yet again)

Paganism is not the same as superstition.

Look, I'm happy to allow the Vatican their beliefs if they will allow me mine without constantly insulting me. Sheesh.

[meow2u3]

15. It's paganism masquerading as Christianity the Vatican objects to

That's the nature of Creationism: the Christofascists are trying to pass off their idol as Christianity. Fake religion.

[hvn_nbr_2]

28. Taking the Christian scripture literally has nothing to do with paganism.

Creationism is neither paganism nor paganism masquerading as anything else.

His statement makes as much sense as claiming that the Salem witch hunt was a form of Antarctic penguinism. Creationism has as much in common with paganism as Christian witch hunts have in common with Antarctic penguinism.

Your statement sounds as if you're equating paganism with idolatry and fake religion. Please say it isn't so and that I misunderstood.

[CatholicEdHead]

16. This is consistent with current policies

A half century or so it may have been different, but not in the past century.

Even over most of the RCC's history, literal bible interpertations were not encouraged.

[eallen]

17. The superstitious are always eager to claim science on their side.

Especially when using it as a tool against competing superstition. It's ironic how many religious sects go so far even to put science in their name. Scientology. Christian Scientists. And more, the creationists will defend themselves not by dismissing science when it opposes religion, but by claiming that their views are just as scientific as any other religion's.

I cannot recall a single instance where a scientist has appealled to religion in support of one scientific theory against a competing theory. And certainly not where scientists have battled over which scientific theory is more authentically religious.

That is very telling I think.

[Iowa]

18. This position on creationism is not new...

I can recall this coming up in one of my Catholic college philosophy classes 35 years ago. The professor priest was highly educated (multiple PhDs) and was considered quite conservative. He agreed that there is no conflict between evolution and theology; the bible is not meant to be taken literally. The Catholic church has long accepted evolution. My prof is long dead, but if he were alive today I'm sure he'd see all the recent hubbub about creationism as simply ignorant - and about as interesting as watching two goats butt heads together.

One problem (of many) with some of the fundamentalist religions is that the educational standards for becoming a pastor is quite low. Formal, rigorous education of their leaders (and I'm not talking about bible school, but competitive education at real schools) won't resolve all their problems, but it would certainly help. There are fundie pastors in my town with absolutely no formal post-secondary education. They just declare themselves pastors and if they're slick talkers with a slight sociopathic bent, they have a following in no time.

[SharonAnn]

20. Yes, we have people here who say they were "called" and so they

started a church and teach the most bizarre interpretations of the Bible.

I think they may be high school graduates, but no schooling past that. And absolutely NO theological training, no seminary, no training in ancient languages, etc.

[LostinVA]

36. Yup, the Church is very much pro-evolution

[stubtoe]

43. I'm glad I read your post.

I hadn't known that about educational standards for pastors of (some) fundamentalist sects being so low. The lack of proper education, and its concurrent detrimental impact on the development of logical thought, certainly explains a lot about some of the more extreme points of view that have been promulgated - and why so many followers choose to believe them. ie, it's easier than thinking.

That clears up a lot for me. Thanks!

[Stinky The Clown]

21. There goes that old timey anti choice alliance .....

hahahahahahahahaa

[Lisa]

22. I know someone who got his PhD in the same department

... as Dr. Consolmagno. Says he was the smartest one of their group of grads -- but approachable, and capable of being very profound and compassionate (yet not coming across as "holier than thou").

[Canuckistanian]

25. Such twisted, convoluted thinking

So, the Holy Church is saying that religion needs to rely on reality to remain valid?

Now, I've heard everything.

When will they learn that they're in the same business as the creationists?

[sandnsea]

29. Catholicism is a reasoned religion

It has always abhorred the kind of emotionalism of the born again and pentecostals. Faith isn't a feeling, it's a decision. It is very reality based and relies on documentation going back centuries for its dogma, not the mood of somebody on a Sunday morning.

[jerry611]

30. Didn't a catholic priest develop the big bang theory?

I thought it was a catholic priest in the early 1900s that developed the big bang theory...

Or is my history incorrect?

[eridani]

34. You're thinking about Teilhard de Chardin--

--and the Omega Point. Not the same thing at all. Chardin I think did paleontology or archaeolgy, not physic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

Yep, paleontologist. SJ Gould speculates that he might have had inside knowledge about the Piltdown hoax.

[rman]

41. Father Georges-Henri Lemaître

Father Georges-Henri Lemaître (July 17, 1894 – June 20, 1966) was a Belgian Roman Catholic priest and astronomer.

Fr. Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

[eridani]

44. Oopsie--forgot about Lemaitre

--both were very effective popularizers interested in the connection between spirituality and science.

[JI7]

31. not true, it's an idea that Christians have

instead of insulting pagans by associating them with this. they should confront the Christians who believe this and why the fundies are wrong.

[rman]

40. selfdelete

[hyphenate]

35. Yeah--wow

Although I have to give the Catholic religion a little credit, because they have maintained for a very long time that the "myth" of creation is just that--a "myth"--or more rightly, an allegory. Catholics firmly believe in evolution, and cite that a "day" for "God" could be anywhere from a million to a hundred million years. I just wish the fundies had as good sense to know that or at least not try to shove it down our throats that a "day" for "God" is a twenty-four hour one.

[Bridget Burke]

38. He also spoke out against Papal Infallibility...

Brother Consolmagno, who was due to give a speech at the Glasgow Science Centre last night, entitled "Why the Pope has an Astronomer", said the idea of papal infallibility had been a "PR disaster". What it actually meant was that, on matters of faith, followers should accept "somebody has got to be the boss, the final authority".

"It's not like he has a magic power, that God whispers the truth in his ear," he said.

(from the linked article)

To you insulted NeoPagans out there--sounds as though he's referring to Historical Paganism such as existed long before the Church. Not Gerald Gardner & his followers...

[Fovea]

39. 'turning God into a nature god'

Is it better to have a God outside of nature?

[Vidar]

45. An insult to pagans, but not bad considering the source.