Florida to require HIGH SCHOOL majors? WTF?

[jmowreader]

Just another insult from our Education Family...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/05/high.school.majors.ap/index.html

It's an insult because, apparently, now you're supposed to know what you want to be when you grow up at the age of 13. I realize I'm so old you can hear my bones creak when I walk, but come on...what happens if you find out you like science after spending two years learning to fix cars?

[saltpoint]

1. Yep. You can now major in 'Election Fraud' as a course of study.

Teacher's name is Chad.

[Chipper Chat]

5. Ha ha......Hmmm... Chad.....

There's a follow-up joke there, but I'll leave it to the inquiring minds who want to know.

[saltpoint]

6. LOL. Yep. I thought the situation called for restraint.

[Chipper Chat]

7. If this were Rolling Stone magazine

we could just go on and on (for days). Ahem.

[saltpoint]

9. - - - -

:hi: :popcorn:

:dem:

[BuyingThyme]

2. I like it.

When I graduated, I had no idea what to do next. Having a major shouldn't get in the way of one's general education. And, if you don't want a major, perhaps perhaps you can just major in general education.

[Yollam]

4. Me too. I think it's a good idea.

I went to college with no idea what I wanted to do and floundered for a long time. A lot of kids need a kick in the pants to get them thinking seriously about career choices.

[Divernan]

12. LOcking 13 year olds into "vocational fields"/ready-to-work programs!

I know Florida needs tremendous numbers of low paid workers to service the retirees/tourists, and now it looks to the GOP like their steady supply of illegal immigrant labor may be blocked, so Jeb got this bill passed in the nick of time! ! ! When you add this to the soaring costs of colleges and how drastically Bush has slashed the amount of student aid, you get a nice increase to the cannon fodder pool as well.

"A major area of interest could include a traditional academic subject suc as English, a foreign language or math, or a vocational field such as carpentry or auto repair."

"The measure also would set up a ready-to-work program for high school students WHO DON'T PLAN TO GO TO COLLEGE. . . "

Does anyone here at DU NOT understand that if a kid is pushed into 1 or 2 years of vo-tech, that they have lost the option of switching to a college-prep track. How easy will it be for schools to influence 13 year olds from poor and/or single parent families, whose parents have not gone to college, that the American Dream is now to have your very own bay at the local Pro-Care? Or work as an aide in the booming nursing home industry? Or every little girl's dream of being a "nail technician"?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. You nailed it

No need to import your underclass when you can grow them at home! Lock kids into a pre-defined vocational path AND load up their school day with training for that, thus reducing further the possibility that they may inadvertently be exposed to anything that would lead to critical thinking. It's a win-win. :sarcasm:

[BuyingThyme]

17. I don't buy this crap about more choices providing less opportunities,

but I understand why a person like yourself, who goes to great lengths to denigrate the work of others, would be against such a thing.

[Divernan]

30. It's very simple. A choice at 13 locks the kid in and bars any other

choices. When someone (Liberalnproud) posts facts that don't support your opinion, it does not constitute "denigrating the work of others." I am interested to hear the experience of parents who found a school trying to pigeon hole their 150 IQ child into training as a beautician, with no opportunity to change her mind once she went into the program. And there's nothing about the schools having to offer more choices,ie, broader curricula, just pushing kids in to locked in tracks.

[BuyingThyme]

31. The fact that you went out of your way to denigrate mechanics, nurses, and

beauticians will not change.

And the use of straw-man nonsense about 13-year old high school students being locked into career paths (not the mention your off-topic use of the unrelated personal experience of Liberalnproud) will not work on somebody like me.

Sorry.

[Divernan]

32. I referred to aides in nursing homes, not nurses.

Having worked extensively as an attorney with the professional licensing committees of my state for nurses, physicians and nurse practitioners, I have a very informed knowledge of how highly trained, overworked and underpaid nurses are. I have a very high regard for that profession. I also have extensive experience with nursing homes, and the inexperience and lack of training and incredibly high job turnover occuring re "aides" there. I have heard extensive testimony, under oath, at statewide hearings, that this is an extremely difficult job, which people leave ASAP. Oftentimes they can earn more money working for a fast food chain and the job conditions are better. This is tragic, since the elderly need skilled caregivers. And I also worked with licensing of beauticians. They are not the same as "nail technicians". And I have had to deal with reports by mechanics of job abuses from the chains they work for - things like being followed to the bathroom, and not given lunch breaks, and working 10 hour shifts but being only paid for 8 hours. That's the background on why I disapprove of an educational program which would lock a 13 year old with a 150 IQ into one of those jobs.

And Liberalandproud's experience with his daughter was directly on point and part of the thread, and an actual example of the kind of program which was the subject of the thread.

Also, your use of the term "straw man" indicates you do not understand the term. The definition, according to the Oxford dictionary is: "an invented argument set up simply to be easily refuted."
Even your trying to substitute "nurses" for "nursing home aides" (that was easily refuted) is not a straw man argument because you didn't deliberately set it up to be refuted. A straw man argument is when Tim Russert starts out with some "liberals say. . . " and then devotes the rest of the segment to refuting the liberal position.

"Denigrating" seems to be your word of the month around here. Look that word up too. It means to disparage or defame. It does NOT mean disagree.

On edit: one more example. Your referring to my earlier post as "crap" woud be denigrating.

[frankenforpres]

33. i dont think you are correct

my brother goes to a vocational high school and he will have plenty of opportunities to go to college (if he chooses to go). Also, vocational jobs are not low paying.

most kids would be better off learning a trade anyway.


edit: before i get accused of being anti-critical thinking and education in general, i will just state that i am going on my 23rd year of schooling. i am currently ABD in economics.

[Divernan]

34. My Catholic high school "tracked" kids starting w/freshman year.

You were in the "gifted" college prep group A, or Group B - the not gifted but maybe you could go to lower tier colleges (these kids did not get the 4th year of science or math or the then equivalent of AP English) or Group C - the girls took shorthand & typing & home ec; the guys took a couple of years of shop. This resulted in four years of segregated social groups as well. The A group provided every single one of the leaders - all the sports team captains, yearbook & paper editors, student council officers and reps. and all the cheerleaders. The B group had a few guys on the teams and members in the choir and band. The C group had a lot of shy, insecure people and also the "wild" kids/delinquents. The As and Bs had their own parties and dances; the quiet Cs had no social life and the wild Cs got busted occasionally for underage drinking and vandalism. The tracking groups also broke up friendships of kids who had gone to grade schools together and were neighbors.

A group of 10 of us recently sat around a table at our 45th reunion and talked about the lifelong anger & hurt felt by the people in Group C, and some of the people in Group B at having been labeled and then socially segregated. They felt their parents were sacrificing to pay tuition to send them to a private school where they were made to feel like second class citizens. Two who had been told they'd be lucky if they could become state policemen, ended up college professors with Ph.D.s; some of the women were told to look forward to being wives and mothers. Several of them got master's degrees and many of them have had very productive careers. The article about the Bush bill even prattled on about how great it would be that when kids had "majors" they'd just hang out with others with the same interests and get to know them better.

I don't understand how your brother will have plenty of opportunities to go to college if he's in a vocational program. Colleges have specific academic prerequisites. As another poster described it, if he'd allowed his daughter to become locked in for five years in a beautician training program and then she wanted to go to college, she would have to spend several more years of her life, and her own money on tuition to take the required preparatory courses. He's in Ohio; you're in Florida - programs may differ. Does Florida public education allow people to return to high school after they've completed it and take different courses of study?

I do agree that some vocational jobs, such as plumbers and electricians, are well paying. But in my state people have to go through apprentice and journeyman levels of training (after they've completed high school or vocational school) and pass various tests before they can get their state licenses. Kids do not just graduate from vo-tech school and walk into good paying jobs, unless they're going in to a family business. A lot of other technical jobs are going overseas via outsourcing, or dropping in salary levels in this country because of the various visas granted to well educated foreigners who are willing and happy to work for $10,000 less a year than American workers.

You're a doctoral student in economics. Don't all of the statistics on lifetime income show increasing increments directly proportional to the number of years of post high school education one receives? Between the outsourcing,the reductions in student aid, the huge deficits with which these kids will be burdened, it's a tough call for 18 year olds, let alone 13 year olds, on how to plan a career for today's kids. On balance, I mistrust any educational plan originating with the Bushes and their military-corporate big donors, as having the students' best interests in mind.

[liberal N proud]

13. Only one problem: You could have been guided down a career path that you

were not suited for.
They could have pushed you into a service type career as a Freshman in High School. That path would not have included classes necessary for college.
Then later if you decided you wanted to pursue a degree, you would have been required to spend a couple of years or more in community college or similar picking up those credits.

Career programs in high school should be 100% volunteer, if a kid is advanced enough to know where they are headed then the kid should choose to take this direction. Parents and School officials should not have the power to force kids into career paths.

Our daughter is headed into middle school next year. She has been diagnosed with ADHD and it has taken us 2 years to get the school to do testing so we can establish an IEP. The school has thrown one thing after another to avoid the testing because they don't want to do something outside the box.
The latest thing they threw at us was one of these career path type programs. The kids would be put in programs that teach the skills for a career. At first my wife and I thought that maybe this was just the thing. We even delayed our vacation so we could attend a meeting. What we found out was if we committed to putting our 13 year old into this program, she would be committed to this path for the next 5 years. Then if she wanted to go to college after they were finished teaching here to be a beautician that she would need to go to community college to pick up the courses she missed in the program. She has an IQ of 150 do you think she would be happy with US and the school selecting what she would be doing when she graduated high school?


I sure as hell wouldn't have appreciated it.

[Divernan]

14. Keep fighting for her potential -W/ 150 IQ, she has a lot to contribute

to our sorry society!

[BuyingThyme]

18. You don't believe what you're writing.

You say parents shouldn't choose, but then you demonstrate that you're just blowing smoke.

[liberal N proud]

19. Blowing smoke?????

Please elaborate

[BuyingThyme]

20. (You) say parents shouldn't choose, and then that parents should choose.

What YOU're actually saying is that parents should always choose a college path for their children, and if that doesn't work out, who cares.

(Edited for YOUs.)

[liberal N proud]

27. I did not indicate that parents should always choose college for kids

But they should not eliminate or restrict that path.
Telling your kid they need to select a path that is going to inhibit their chances of going to college if they so choose is wrong.

[w4rma]

3. If they are going to do this they should just go ahead ane make undergrad

free like high school is.

[TomClash]

8. Next up: Preschool majors

"Naomi is now three and she still hasn't declared her major!"

[The2ndWheel]

16. Conception majors

I have no doubt that humanity, if possible, will completely engineer children to fit what the system needs. What it needs is efficiency, none of this human thought crap that just slows us down.

[retread]

10. Will private schools, attended by students using taxpayer funded

vouchers, be included?

[Divernan]

11. Great - kids can major in born again evangelical theology!

nt

[Deja Q]

26. Wow, I had no idea "science fiction" was a study to major in!

Now all the trekkies have hope too! :woohoo:

[Coexist]

21. You can switch majors.

Actually in my district, the kids choose "Communities".

Be it Science/Tech, Business, etc. If they want to change, they can halfway through the year.

The don't have to make up tons of credits in that field to graduate, either. They just switch.

I really like it. They are learning more about what they want to study or do after school (and with the concentration of courses in their Junior and Senior year, if they really do like it enough to pursue it as a career).

It also makes it more personal, because they will see more of the same kids more often (those in their community) and so the huge school is broken down into something smaller - there isn't one set of "popular kids" because some students rarely even cross paths with each other.

Also, during Freshman and Sophomore year, the classes are mostly Gen Ed, just like in college, so they all get the basics.

[BuyingThyme]

22. Of course.

[woodsprite]

23. Christina School District in Delaware is doing that now also.

They are calling it educational communities and you choose a "specialization". You have to declare by 10th grade what your specialization will be, if you choose one you don't like in 9th grade, you can change. If you wait until 10th grade to choose, you're stuck. With a specialization, you're guided in your "elective" choices by a guidance counselor and you have to actually meet a minimum credit requirement in the subject from your total elective credits, that's why you need the 3 yrs to fit them all in. Totally sucks and hubby and I are not happy about it, but DD wants to go to this particular school because it's the only one that has an orchestra and arts. Yeah, totally screwed up schools nowadays. The only "charter" highschools around here are a business based highschool run in an industrial park, a military academy and one where students are bussed 45 min. one way on I-95.

Christina is the one where former superintendent Jos. Wise was hired up from Florida, made alot of bad decisions for the teaching staff and students, broke the budget for the district by $13.9 million, left to go back to Florida before his "contract" was up, and now is saying it's not his fault there is 13.9 million shortfall on the budget. One of the things he tried to get a property tax increase for was to build a parking garage for a highschool with ample parking already. Hmmmm, Florida. Don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet he was Repub.

FLDem - looks like Delaware is taking a hybrid of the community approach and majors, since students are "locked in" from 10th grade on.

Edited to add: This is the only one of the 3 major highschools around here that actually designs their curriculum with the needed areas to get into the Univ. of Delaware. Wouldn't you think the other 2 would be looking at doing at least that - after all, you can WALK to the UofD from pretty much all of these high schools. Instead, one is a magnet school for international business and is doing some other kind of plan, the other has not declared what it's a magnet school for. The one mentioned above is the local magnet school for the arts.

[WePurrsevere]

24. DH & I grad from HS in the 70's, different schools & we both had "majors"

... it wasn't pushed like college was but it was there.

The biggest reason that I remember this at all was I thought it was funny as heck because mine ended up being Math. Back then I "hated" Math but since it was what I took the most courses in (over the NYS required) it was considered my "major". You could have a "General" but declaring a major was thought to look better on your college apps.

Since both DH and I were in NYS maybe it was a NYS "thing"?

Anyway... I don't know that it helped either of us one way or the other back then. It certainly didn't stick us into a box since we could have changed "majors" back then just as we could in college.

[Deja Q]

25. It's insane because jobs, both low paying and high, are being offshored...

when not offpeopled. (automation or the creation of redundancy.)

The tinfoilhat friend in me would say, especially for higher paying jobs, they want to encourage America's braindrain.

Plenty of Indians and Chinese (over 3 billion combined) to pirate our warez exploit and turn a blind eye to, so why not?

We are not people to the corporate sect. We are biomachines, no different from the mechanical type.

Funny how they team up with a government that claims to value life.

[donco6]

28. Also known as TRACKING.

This has been around forever under other names. It's basically a way to get kids to pick "vocation" or "profession." Unfortunately, the studies show that the poor and minorities get shuffled into vocation while the wealthy and white get to go to college.

[LeftyMom]

36. Exactly. nt

[BarbaRosa]

29. I wonder how that would work out

for someone like me, who because of my fathers profession, ended up attending more schools that grades --that with two years of eight grade(again two different schools)--,in four different countries to boot. After my final year in an Adult Tech College in Sydney NSW, I had no idea what or where I wanted to go, except to leave Australia and not get drafted (this was the Nam era, and as a Canadian I knew I didn't want to catch VC bullets for Australia. sorry mates).

[LeftyMom]

35. They did that in my high school, but it was new and you didn't have to

and I wanted nothing to do with it, both because the idea of specialization as a teenager did not appeal and because none of the majors appealed to me.

Around here these high school majors are a big deal at the low-performing schools in shitty neighborhoods and non-existant at most of the nice suburban high schools. That tells me all I need to know- if they were of benefit the better schools would be embracing them. They're just a way to keep the uppity poor kids out of college (since the heavily promoted and most popular majors are vocational track and don't meet admissions requirements) and the rest of the poor kids in school and out of the rest of society's hair with the promise of a semi-decent job at graduation.