U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols

[corporate_mike]

While Minuteman civilian patrols are keeping an eye out for illegal border crossers, the U.S. Border Patrol is keeping an eye out for Minutemen -- and telling the Mexican government where they are.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653

[Botany]

1. I hope they run into some real "malo loco hombres"

maybe a nice crystal meth gang or some bikers looking to kick ass
if they stray over the border. Those tired old red necks would get stomped.

[gordianot]

8. I have met some of the gun nut people north of the border.

"Loco" is right. A disaster waiting to happen. I doubt it will be kick ass either way.

[demosincebirth]

76. They remind me of RW Barney Fife'ers

[gordianot]

85. Barney Fife was scary.

He was unpredictable and his single 38 bullet accidental discharge could kill almost every time he put it in his pistol.

Fools with guns are armed fools.

[DeaconBlues]

116. So you believe that these people should be physically harmed for

their concern about border security. How would you feel if someone said that they hope anti-war demonstraters should be stomped?

I'm starting to believe that DU harbors way too many left authoritarians/nazis.

[kevinbgoode]

178. Who has appointed them the protectors of national borders?

[DeaconBlues]

195. I think that as citizens they have the right to patrol within

the boundaries of private property. Do you think they should be "stomped" for doing this, like the previous poster?

[kevinbgoode]

204. Whose private property?

And I've read at least one account of these self-appointed "defenders" wandering into Canada accidentally. . .I've seen no popular election to determine if the citizens need to raise a private militia to deal with the border situation.

[long_green]

2. "Tipping them off" means "please don't hurt them"

I can't imagine they're hard to find what with the roar of portable generators, radios blasting out Dokken, the constant hum of "Caddyshack" quotes, the sound of 50 gun safeties clicking on and off, the accidental discharge of firearms, the shifting around when the next watch comes on so the last watch can go watch "The Sopranos." I don't think any business men hovering around the border have any trouble finding the Minutemen.

[gordianot]

3. Good way to further alienate RW nuts (the old Bush base).

This will come to a real bad end someday as the Minuteman meets the Aztlan.

[Dr. Jones]

7. You mean THIS Azltan?

http://www.diversityalliance.org/docs/Chang-aztlan.html

[gordianot]

9. sorry

[Dr. Jones]

13. Don't have to be sorry, you said "Azltan," and I provided a link

to that very subject...

Why are you sorry?

[Bridget Burke]

25. No, he said "Aztlan"--not "Azltan"

(Nahuatl spelling is not easy.) However, you produced a link to one of the more interesting Right Wing sites--your effort was not wasted.

Here's some REAL info on "Aztlan." www.azteca.net/aztec/aztlan.html

I remember the concept from the early days of Chicano rights. (You probably don't.) It was not a call to armed invasion, but a reminder that They Belong Here, Too.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Now that is interesting --

I'd have never thought the KKK would admit members named Chang.

EDIT
And BTW, that's AZ-AT-LAN, not AZ-EL-TAN.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Dr Chang is an expert--on China.

The link came from the Diversity Alliance. Yeh Ling-Ling is the head--a prime example of "Now that we're here, let's lock the door!" Part of Their Mission:

Legal immigration should be limited to spouses and unmarried children under 18 of U.S. citizens and non-citizen legal immigrants, individuals who are personally persecuted as defined by the Immigration Act of 1980, and highly skilled labor certified by the U.S. Department of Labor to be in shortage in the U.S.

• Non-citizen legal immigrants should be denied all welfare benefits, cash and non-cash, except emergency medical care.

Regarding Illegal Immigration:

• All illegal aliens should be expeditiously deported, except those who are spouses of U.S. citizens;

• All illegal aliens should be denied all public services except emergency medical care;

• Children born in the U.S. of illegal immigrants should be denied automatic U.S. citizenship.

www.diversityalliance.org/docs/DASA-MissionPlatform.html

Overpopulation is a worldwide problem. The USA is part of that world.

[Dr. Jones]

24. Dr. Chang is also knowledgeable about this topic as well.

Can't a professor be knowledgable in two areas at once? But on to my most pressing question.

Dr. Chang said that illegals do indeed get access to welfare and other governmental benefits, which of course is subsidized by the American taxpayer. Now you and others would disagree with that. What's the real deal here?

By the way, the one thing I disagree on is that illegals should be denied emergency medical care. To me, that is inhumane.

[Ms. Clio]

30. Please post a credible source, other than Dr. Chang

to support your arguments about "welfare and other governmental benefits." This has been repeatedly debunked here.

[Dr. Jones]

44. Why bother? You'll never believe it anyway no matter how credible

the source may be.

[Ms. Clio]

50. Bottom line is that you don't have any credible sources

Or you would post the links or provide cites.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Not according to her CV.

The article you posted is her ONLY publication on the subject.

www.unr.edu/cla/polisci/famaria_hsia_chang.htm

If you want to know more about Falun Gong, she's the one!

[Dr. Jones]

51. Professor Chang is a CREDIBLE Professor of Political Science.

Furthermore, you just cooberated that SHE was the original author of that piece on Aztlan. How much more credibility do you need?

[Ms. Clio]

56. Southern Poverty Law Center

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610

[corporate_mike]

58. spam?

you posted that link way too many times on this thread

we got it the first time, no need to spam

[Bridget Burke]

63. China is her field.

Many scholars have secondary fields of interest, but she's published NOTHING ELSE on The Reconquista Menace---or any remotely connected topic.

I don't think that "credibility" means what you think it means.

[Dr. Jones]

95. And I don't think you know a whole lot about scholarship.

So you're basically saying that if I'm a Professor of Anthropology at the University of Texas who has done research in Central American race relations, any further race-related research I do in any other area is null and void simply because I've never done research in that area before?

Sorry, this is wholly false. Professors can and do work on a variety of research projects that vary by country. And it does NOTHING to discredit their reputations or scholarship.

[Bridget Burke]

102. Professors can, indeed, work on a variety of research projects.

And their publications reflect their work.

Dr Chang's CV indicates no research in the area of Chicano studies. Or Border Theory, History of the Southwest, etc. That is, nothing published in a reputable journal. Her article, "Multiculturalism, Immigration and Aztlan" was published by The Social Contract Journal (Vol. 10, No. 3; Spring, 2000).

www.thesocialcontract.com/bookstore/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=87&osCsid=d7a0cca6b2f48d95cc71d89776b8402a

Those poor folks at The Social Contract Press are also being persecuted by the SPLC.

Behind the recent upswing in anti-immigration activism are an array of groups, including the 10 listed here. Most of these groups regularly work together, and their leaders frequently hold cross-memberships in several organizations at once. Some of the groups have clear ties to openly racist organizations, and even some of those that don't still espouse thinly disguised bigotry.

In the eyes of most of these groups, immigrants (typically, non-white immigrants) are responsible for nearly all the country's ills, from poverty and inner city decay to crime, urban sprawl and environmental degradation.

Many of them also believe there is a secret a plot by the Mexican government and American Hispanics to wrest the Southwest away from the United States in order to create "Aztlan," a Hispanic nation. Only four of the 10 groups described below are designated as "hate groups" by the Southern Poverty Law Center (see The Year in Hate).

www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=175

[Ms. Clio]

104. excellent find

thanks

[Dr. Jones]

105. Dr. Chang is a Professor of POLITICAL SCIENCE!!

Do you really think illegal immigration is simply a Chicano Studies issue? Well if that's the way you view it, fine, but that is a very narrow viewpoint. Immigrants don't just come from Mexico, you know.

Immigration at its core is a POLITICAL issue, which is why Dr. Chang is justified in her scholarship on the matter. And now you want to grasp at straws and say she never published the Aztlan article in a REPUTABLE journal, even though, as you stated, she DID in fact publish the article in a scholarly journal? What lengths you go to to support your wobbly argument!

Do facts matter to you? Or do feelings and emotions matter more?

[Ms. Clio]

109. Peer-reviewed journals -- you DO know what those are, don't you?

[Ms. Clio]

112. It's part of the rightwing press

Social Contract Press, founded in 1990 by John Tanton, is "an educational and publishing organization advocating open discussion of such related issues as population size and rate of growth, protection of the environment and precious resources, limits on immigration, as well as preservation and promotion of a shared American language and culture." (1) Immigration issues are the main topic of the publishing house's books and reports. Among the books and reports published by the press are: Common Sense on Mass Immigration edited by John Tanton; The Camp of the Saints by Jean Raspail; Americans No More by Georgie Anne Geyer; Immigration Dilemma by Garrett Hardin; and The Immigration Invasion by Wayne Lutton and John Tanton.

"Immigrant numbers and immigration policies rank high in the activities and concerns of The Social Contract enterprises," according to the organization's website. "We favor immigration, but at much lower, more traditional levels. We are in favor of fewer admissions in order to reduce the rate of America's population growth, protect jobs, preserve the environment, and foster assimilation." (1)


http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1539

[Bridget Burke]

115. "The Camp of Saints" is proudly offered by the Social Contract folks....

http://thesocialcontract.com/bookstore/product_info.php?products_id=17

One of many "rave reviews" from Amazon.

The white race built our civilization and our nation and is being systematically destroyed by its enemies, one of which is "liberalism" itself. Benjamin Disraeli was only slightly exagerrating when he said: "Race is everything."

Read this book and pass it on to your friends who have any racial consciousness at all. It could light a fire that will help save us, the world, and all races.

We Aryans will only survive if we decide to ourselves. No one else will save us, least of all "That Something In America" as Anthony Jacob in WHITE MAN, THINK AGAIN! called it (and them). We may not make it, but we must continue to struggle to the bitter end.

Remember, we have a right to our place and existence and the nations our forefathers built. The PC death cult wants to destroy us, but we must do all in our power to stop them.

www.amazon.com/gp/product/1881780074/002-8972667-2854464?v=glance&n=283155

Anyone making common cause with these Nazis had better get used to hearing charges of "racism" & "xenophobia."

[Ms. Clio]

117. If the shit-stirring shoe fits. . . .

another great find, thanks.

[Bridget Burke]

126. You're welcome.

But now I need a shower. Or a shot of tequila. Or maybe both.

[Ms. Clio]

128. not directed at you, of course

but a shot of tequila never comes amiss. :)

[Dr. Jones]

173. Please, a shot of tequila for me too - I'm dyin' over here.

Drinks on you?

[Dr. Jones]

134. Ay yai yai, AGAIN...

Again it seems you are attempting to frame this issue as racist based on one distant racist group (or in this case, individual) who happens to be against immigration based on race alone. That is NOT what the anti-immigration movement at large beieves because it is not defined by race.

Furthermore, your first link does NOT go to Amazon as your post suggests, it is the Social Contract website which says of the book you're referring to: Originally published in France, The Camp of the Saints has been described as the 1984 of the late twentieth century. The Social Contract Press is pleased to be able to offer a reprint of this gripping novel, which envisions the overrunning of European civilization by burgeoning Third World populations. (softcover, 316 pages)

The Amazon.com quote you posted is simply the OPINION of one lone individual out there who, like any other person in the world, can post a review of a publication on Amazon.com.

Nice try?

[Ms. Clio]

136. you really think this sounds better?

"this gripping novel . . . envisions the overrunning of European civilization by burgeoning Third World populations."

Really?

[Bridget Burke]

157. Oops! I left out a colon.

The first link referred to the Title of my post. The statement under the link should have read: One of many "rave reviews" from Amazon:

Sorry you got confused. I won't try anything so complicated again.

Most of the positive reviews at Amazon agree with the quotation I cited. However, they do leave out "Aryan"--a bit too obvious?

The book is published by the same folks who publish that "scholarly" journal you were citing.

[Bridget Burke]

113. Dr Chang has done no relevant research.

She's got a long CV but no published articles indicate any knowledge of the "Aztlan" concept. Her little article was quite focused on the Southwest.

"Social Contract" is (ahem) not a scholarly journal.

[Ms. Clio]

106. So are you a "Professor of Anthropology?"

If you have credentials in this field, let's have some cites to your work?

[laheina]

145. Poli Sci--Not sociology. If she writes a piece on our government

or our political dealings with other countries, then her expertise would be more credible.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr. Jones]

47. Very funny!

:rofl:

You have no idea who I am.

[Ms. Clio]

49. If that would lend credibility to your arguments

then by all means, identify yourself.

[martymar64]

94. But they pay taxes too

If they buy anything in most states, they are paying sales tax and other state and local taxes.
Give a little, get a little.

[laheina]

148. They pay more in taxes than they ever get back.

And I've also known some that pay their income taxes--gasp! Yes it can be done without a SSN, by using a TIN. :hi:

[Ms. Clio]

23. The Minutemen Project and the "La Reconquista" Lie

"La Reconquista"? Odds are, if you aren't a raging bigot or a member of the Minutemen Project, you probably haven't heard of it at all. But perhaps its time to learn about it. After all, notions of "La Reconquista" are being used to fuel racism and promote vigilantism in America.

You see, La Reconquista is a theory which contends that Mexico and Latin America, at large, are conspiring to conquer the American southwest. However, unlike some other conspiracies, the proponents of La Reconquista offer no piece of evidence to support their accusations other than the fact that many Latin Americans are entering into the country. (Curiously, was the influx of Irish immigrants in the 1860's proof of a secret Irish invasion to conquer America? Oh wait, those guys were white....my bad.)

Relying on good ole' fashion American xenophobia and redneck bigotry, groups like the Minutemen Project are espousing the notion of "La Reconquista" to get xenophobicaly minded and perhaps bigoted people to support their cause. And what, you may be asking, do the Minutemen people want to do with the people who illegally cross the border into the United States?

Shoot them, of course!

"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West . "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die." Southern Poverty Law Center, Summer 2005

Unfortunately, Carl is not alone. It seems that this belief is rather common among Minutemen Project militiamen.

[Dr. Jones]

31. If Professors and other experts agree this movement exists

in America, then you don't have much of a leg to stand on, do you? Ah, but I see how beautifully you set that up - if you even remotely consider that this stuff has any truth to it, you are automatically racist and xenophobic. I prefer to get outside that shell you have created and see the reality at play - there ARE indeed some troubling elements within the illegal immigration movement and we really do have to be aware of this.

You really do go to the extremes on this one. You pick out ONE dude who believes we should shoot illegals. Most of the people who are in favor of immigration reform, including myself, are completely against that. Does that surprise you? That such a raging xenophobe/racist as myself says we should NOT shoot illegals?

Can you provide any proof of your allegations? That this belief that we should shoot illegals is "rather common" among Minutemen? That's a pretty damning statement and I think you should back that up with more than just words.

[Ms. Clio]

33. Links, please

I provide links to sources such as the Pew Hispanic Research Center and the Southern Poverty Law Center. All you have is a racist professor. Studies. Fact. Evidence. Back up your arguments.

[Ms. Clio]

34. please see post #28

[Bridget Burke]

38. The Professor is wrong--but it's not her field of study.

She has political motivations--"Keep out those others, since I've got mine."

One of the quotations from the article:

Brent A. Nelson, writing in 1994, observed that in the 1980s America's Southwest had begun to be transformed into "a de facto nation" with its own culture, history, myth, geography, religion, education, and language.

Hey, Dr Nelson has a PhD in English. But, apparently, he's never been to Texas. We've been "different" down here for a lot longer than he knows.

[TahitiNut]

60. Yearning for an ancestral homeland is exclusive to Zionists.

I thought everyone knew that. :eyes: :dunce:

[Ms. Clio]

64. There are still Irish yearning for their ancestral homeland, too

Don't confuse bigoted nonsense with real problems.

[laheina]

142. Are you saying that you *are* a minute man.

or at the very least are sympathetic to their movement? that is what the latter passages of your post lead on to believe.

[RagingInMiami]

91. But the Irish were accused of trying to turn the USA into a papal nation

And like the allegations of La Reconquista, it was all bullshit.

[Bridget Burke]

98. When JFK was elected President, he told LBJ...

Now I'll build that tunnel to Vatican City.

LBJ said: That's OK. As long as Halliburton* gets the contract.



* It may have been a subsidiary of Halliburton.

[RagingInMiami]

99. I believe George Herbert Bush oversaw that contract

[El Fuego]

210. But QUEBEC keeps trying to secede from CANADA

It doesn't take a mysterious cabal, just a majority of people saying "your interests are not OUR interests, we're out of here."

I am fine with the secession of the Southwest as part of an inevitable evolution, and I am only pointing this out because I think it is TOTALLY naive for people to only see this as a Rosa Parks-type civil rights struggle.

(Hi!! :hi:)

On edit: but we have to keep most of California as part of the blue state nation.

[El Fuego]

103. AP article - Chicano Studies Professor Predicts 'Hispanic Homeland'

http://www.aztlan.net/homeland.htm

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — A University of New Mexico Chicano Studies professor predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within the century, taking in the Southwest and several northern states of Mexico.

Charles Truxillo suggests the “Republica del Norte,” the Republic of the North, is “an inevitability.”




He envisions it encompassing all of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and southern Colorado, plus the northern tier of Mexican states: Baja California, Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.

Along both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border “there is a growing fusion, a reviving of connections,” Truxillo said. “Southwest Chicanos and Norteño Mexicanos are becoming one people again.”

(snip)

Please note: This post is not meant to be racist. I just find it interesting. AND, the link is from a Hispanic web site, not a RW one!!! If Hispanics can establish this homeland peacefully, El Fuego salutes them.

[Ms. Clio]

107. more from the same article

Other UNM professors were skeptical

Felipe Gonzáles, director of UNM's Southwest Hispanic Research Institute, said there's a “certain homeland undercurrent” among New Mexico Hispanics who believe land was stolen and promises broken. But, he said, a new nation would need much more widespread support.

“Educated elites are going to have to pick up on this idea and run with it and use it as a point of confrontation if it is to succeed,” Gonzáles said.

Truxillo contends states have the right to secede under the Articles of Confederation of 1777, in which states retained “sovereignty, freedom and independence.” He contends the Articles were not superseded in that regard by the U.S. Constitution and that although the Civil War settled the question militarily, it was never resolved by courts.

History Professor Daniel Feller disagreed

“The Constitution does supersede the Articles of Confederation,” Feller said. “It takes no notice of the articles and is not presented as bearing any relation to them. The Constitution does not declare, recognize or in any way acknowledge the right to secede.”

[Bridget Burke]

119. I can see why Trujillo didn't get tenure.....

He was an assistant professor of history at New Mexico Highlands University from 1992 to 1997, but after being denied tenure there, he began teaching in the Chicano Studies Program at UNM where he is now a visiting professor on a year-to-year contract.

www.unm.edu/~ecdn/tribune.html

Looks like an intellectual construct to me--academic mind games. Anyway, he proposes NO armed conflict. So, why would those who fear "Aztlan" object?

Surely, they do not oppose a state's right to secede!

[Ms. Clio]

123. He does seem to be talking about demographics, mostly

But in a recent interview at a coffee shop near the UNM campus, Truxillo said it was "unlikely" civil war would attend its birth.

Instead, he said, the creation of the Republic of the North will be accomplished by political process, by the "electoral pressure" of the future majority Hispanic population throughout the region rather than by violence.

"Not within the next 20 years but within 80 years," he said. "I may not live to see the Hispanic homeland, but by the end of the century my students' kids will live in it, sovereign and free."


Before he goes off the cliff with all that wacky secession stuff. :evilgrin:

[El Fuego]

177. It's funny that he wants part of Mexico to secede too!

[Dr. Jones]

111. Interesting...I wonder why some people are so mum on this one?

Maybe because it does in fact support the notion that some Hispanics are seriously beginning to talk about "taking back the American Southwest?"

I salute them also as long as 1) It doesn't infringe on U.S. Sovereignty, and 2) It is a peaceful movement within U.S. terroritory (no war); and 3) It is simply Hispanics saying to themselves that their homeland is in their hearts, not under their feet.

[El Fuego]

193. People aren't looking at the big "global" picture of open U.S. borders

Open borders would give opportunities to individuals, but other NATIONS will see it as an opportunity as well.

[laheina]

138. Note that that article is is written by a political science prof.

Not by a sociologist. That is not her field.

It is also heavily slanted, by making an extreme minority movement to seem like it is representative of the whole Chicano culture.

I would also question some of her sources, but I am definitely stating that several of her assertions are patently *false.*

Living in this community, I cannot recall a third generation Chicano that spoke spanish, especially not fluently. If their drop-out rate is higher, it is because of their mentality of working harder--not smarter. If money is tight, go get a second job, and quit school. And if anything, there is too much of a "don't rock the boat" mentality NOT the reverse.

[Dr. Jones]

175. Amazing how uneducated people are about education!

Often times in the social sciences there exists a good deal of crossover. For example, an Anthropologist writes an article that leans more towards a sociological perspective. Or a Psychologist writes on a topic that is more along the lines of an antropological perspecitve. That often happens in academia, and I think more people have to face up to that.

So for anybody to discredit a scholarly publication based on the fact that it's not specifically within the Professor's stated area of research does not at all mean their research is wholly illegitimate. It's like telling your urologist that he's full of crap that your cholesterol is high, because he only specializes in urology and not general practice.

[Bridget Burke]

179. The Social Contract Journal is NOT scholarly.

It's a publication founded by a xenophobic nutcase.

Social Contract Press is best known for its promotion of the 1973 novel The Camp of the Saints, which was a major influence on Tanton's thinking about immigration, culture, national sovereignty, and population control. After founding Social Contract Press, Tanton reprinted the book, which according to the publishing house "has been described as the 1984 of the late twentieth century.a gripping novel, which envisions the overrunning of European civilization by burgeoning Third World populations." In its critique of Tanton and Social Contract Press, the Southern Poverty Law Center wrote: The Camp of the Saints is "a lurid, racist novel by Frenchman Jean Raspail that depicts an invasion of the white, Western world by a fleet of starving, dark-skinned refugees."

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1539

Perhaps I'll contact Dr Chang & ask for a reprint!

[Ms. Clio]

186. you know what's even more interesting?

most anthropologists don't capitalize the word. Neither do Psychologists. Or Professors.

There are standards for journal research, and the publication you cited is not an academic journal.

[laheina]

191. The higher that one moves in academia, the more specialized

that one usually becomes. That is not to say that scholastics aren't versed in more than one field, that is true, but they tend not to be experts in them.

One would also not usually step out of the bounds of one's specialization in order to write a serious paper. While there some overlap in the social sciences, as in the physical sciences, scholars are very aware of where the edges of expertise lie--usually fairly close to their main topic of background and research. This is so much the case that I once heard Meave Leakey define her expertise (as if she needed to!) for a group of archaeologists, because she herself is a Paleoanthropologist!

Don't lecture me with your straw man about academia. I'm sure that I know more about it than you do.

[Dr. Jones]

4. WTF?? Border Patrol Contacting MEXICO??

:wtf:

Look, I can see how Border Patrol needs to keep an eye on the Minutemen, who are not affiliated with any U.S. Government agency, because that group has taken upon itself de-facto Border Patrol duties. But to be sharing this kind of intelligence with Mexico? I just don't get it.

I personally believe this is set up to continue the flow of illegals across our borders and to diminish the effectiveness of the Minuteman project. Even if they are protecting the human rights of the illegals crossing the borders (that none get shot, etc.), that's the sole responsibility of the AMERICANS to deal with that, NOT Mexico. The only reason Mexico is involved here is to continue the unabated flow of illegals into America. Period.

Did you know that if a Mexican Border Patrol officer catches a Mexican crossing the border into America, they are ORDERED not to stop the Mexican? By law, they HAVE to let that Mexican cross into America!!

Leave it to Bush and Corporate America, combined with Vicente Fox's blessings, to do everything they can to WREAK HAVOC on our immigration system and our national security!
:mad:

[Ms. Clio]

10. "diminish the effectiveness of the Minutemen project"

Because it's such a staid and respectable and effective group.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Maybe they want to keep people from being KILLED?

What if the next group the minutemen meet is not a coyote and the people he is smuggling, but a gang bringing 500 lbs of cocaine across the border? Sure, I'd like to stop the cocaine. But do you think these KKK yahoos are going to stop them? Or simply get themselves killed?

The minutemen is a powderkeg waiting for a spark.

[Minnesota Libra]

66. There are so many at DU who absolutely refuse to accept the fact..........

....that the illegal aliens are being used by both the Mexican and US governments. Vicente Fox don't want his own countrymen. Fox actually encourages Mexicans to cross the borders to get rid of fellow countrymen so there are more resources left for him and his rich bunch and some American refuse to recognize that.

Some Americans, one group especially, refuse to admit the more workers there are the more it dilutes our own work force and the more employers will be able to keep wages down. The more workers there are the more people there are who will work for dirt cheap wages and that can only hurt everyone else. Instead of admitting the truth they resort to name calling.

Right now the Minutemen are the only ones who are looking out for our best interests at this point and I, for one, hope the minutemen start being a little more secretive as to their where abouts.

[Ms. Clio]

69. Well, the Germans believed

the Nazis were looking out for their best interests, too.

[Minnesota Libra]

71. So our only choice is Nazi's or flooded borders?? sick!! nt

[Ms. Clio]

72. no, your choice is to stop saying that racists and xenophobes

have your "best interests" at heart.

[Minnesota Libra]

78. As I said the flooded border crowd refuse to discuss................

....issues and choose instead to call those they disagree with names. I gave you much too much credit because I figure you might last 5 posts before beginning the name calling but you managed it in just 2 or 3. Congratulations!!!:spank:

on edit: I refuse to deal with anyone who resorts to name calling.

[Ms. Clio]

80. I didn't call you any names???

Did you read the thread? The Minutemen are racists and xenophobes -- their "ideas," such as they are, are not good for anyone.

On edit: I was responding to your comment, "Right now the Minutemen are the only ones who are looking out for our best interests."

Really? Is that what you believe?

[Minnesota Libra]

81. The Minutemen are the ONLY ones who are even trying to secure.....

....our borders right now. I wish we didn't need the Minutemen, instead I wish the US government would shut down our borders but they won't so someone has to at least try. The Minutemen haven't hurt anyone as of yet - and I hope they don't - but until our government gets their crap together and clamps down and closes our borders down tight someone has to try something.

I'm one of those who lived in a part of the country that has been almost completely taken over by illegal aliens. So I know first hand all the issues involved in illegal aliens flooding an area. In fact that was one of the main reasons I moved to where I am now. Everyone can say what they want but I lived it. I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with immigration - in fact I whole heartedly welcome LEGAL IMMIGRATION - but I have no sympathy for illegal aliens at all. I don't care how hard legal immigration from a certain area/country is if a person wants to come here let them do it legally or not at all.

Does that pretty much set out what I believe as far as immigration and why????

[Ms. Clio]

82. The enemy of your enemy is not any liberal's friend n/t

[Dr. Jones]

89. Well said & agreed.

Isn't it so interesting how people can smack the 'ol "racist/xenophobic" label on you simply because you believe immigrants should come into our country LEGALLY? And that you feel we should begin to truly enforce our borders? Just those two opinions alone certainly engender all manner of insults. For what reason, I still cannot figure.

[Bridget Burke]

108. Lie down with dogs.

Get up with fleas.

[Minnesota Libra]

182. I'm beginning to wonder if those disagreeing with legal immigration....

.....and secured borders aren't themselves illegal aliens. After Sept 11,01 it can ONLY be illegal aliens who would object to tight borders and tough immigration laws.

I am by NO MEANS saying illegal aliens had anything to do with September 11, 2001, but I am saying that if we don't stop the illegal aliens from coming here we are simply begging for another Sept 11 situation. I just can't figure out what is so hard to understand about that unless those objecting are indeed illegal aliens.

[Dr. Jones]

194. You mean something like THIS?

Illegals from terrorist nations are crossing the border into Arizona.

Tom McNamara and the Eyewitness News 4 Investigators have spent the last three months talking to experts and eyewitnesses. The stories are compelling and the evidence is frightening, and just this week, Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo released a report showing that the problem is worse than anyone thought. Here's what the Eyewitness News 4 Investigators uncovered.

"It's a Muslim prayer blanket. It was found about a mile and a half west from the Douglas port of entry in 2001." Larry Vance is a rancher who lives near the U.S.-Mexico border in Douglas, Arizona. For years, he says he's watched - and documented - thousands of illegals crossing the border and running away to eventual arrest... or freedom and anonymity somewhere in this country. And in just one hour, during this stake-out along the border between Douglas and b\Bisbee, The Investigators count 198 illegals in five different groups crossing into the U.S. with no resistance.

In recent years, Vance says, the evidence some illegals leave behind is alarming. Vance says, "Other log books, diary-type things, other bits and pieces of paper with Arabic written on them found in the area over the last few years. We've all heard of the U.S. government's Terror Watch List: countries flagged because Americans are endangered by their citizens, yet regularly, illegals from those countries are crossing the Arizona border, blending in with groups of Mexican and South American illegal immigrants...The investigators found that on this day, several individuals of this kind were being detained here, including some from Sudan, Iran, and even Iraq. These are just the ones who were caught.

Source: http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=2172749

[Minnesota Libra]

201. Wow, I had no idea - I was just guessing, oh wow!!. nt

[Bridget Burke]

189. I see you changed your mind about name calling....

#89 "I'm beginning to wonder if those disagreeing with legal immigration....
.....and secured borders aren't themselves illegal aliens. After Sept 11,01 it can ONLY be illegal aliens who would object to tight borders and tough immigration laws."

Gosh, 9/11 changed everything!

[Critters2]

160. So it's the corporations undermining wages by hiring illegals

who have our "best interests" at heart?

[thereismore]

5. Treason!

:sarcasm:

[Vogon_Glory]

6. Better The Mexican Army Than The Sonorans or the Gulf Cartel

It's better for the Minutemen to be glowered at by a Mexican army unit than having an encounter with the dangerous and heavily-armed Sonoran drug runners or the equally dangerous Gulf drug cartel.

I suspect some day in the not so distant future, the Minutemen boobs will have such an encounter--and crime scene investigators find out how it went one piece at a time.

[Warpy]

12. That's been my fear, too, because if it happens during a GOP

administration, it will escalate quickly as they take care of their beer soaked, Rapture addled, toothless inbred base.

I've seen a few of those guys. No matter their ages or weights, they're all oafs with anger issues, getting angrier every day Stupid's poll numbers drop.

Those Mexican drug gangs are NASTY. Those old boys really will find their last moments discovered, as you said, a piece at a time. Literally. All over the desert.

[Dr. Jones]

17. Mexican drug gangs are allowed into the U.S.

because of our open borders. This is one of the problems with such an open border. You get all kinds of nasties coming in - criminals, gangs, drugs, and thugs. Not all are like this, but some are. This reality stands in direct contrast to those who believe every person that sneaks across our border is a hero-martyr who is simply looking for a better life in our country.

[Vogon_Glory]

26. As Opposed To...

As opposed to right-wing xenophobes' cherished beliefs that each and every undocumented border-crosser is either out to plunder the US taxpayer by going on welfare or is preparing to celebrate September 17th by going on a gory spree with a chainsaw at a crowded shopping mall?

Despite the xenophobes' heady fantasies, the US--Mexican border is never, ever going to be as secure as, say, the Warsaw Pact's old Iron Curtain. For that matter, even in Europe, such borders like the German--Polish border aren't that secure.

[Dr. Jones]

37. Ay yai yai. You totally missed my point.

My words:

Not all are like this, but some are.

Sorry, that ain't xenophobic/racist. And I most CERTAINLY am NOT right wing (don't make me crack up now).

[Ms. Clio]

39. YSR you're a funny funny fellow

[Critters2]

162. What's September 17th?

Should I be making reservations for a diez y siete de septiembre party?

[Vogon_Glory]

192. Mexican Independence Day

September 17th is Mexican Independence Day, when Mexicans declared their independence from Spain.

Cinco de Mayo (May 5th) is when a Mexican army beat a French army at the Battle of Puebla. Despite my being an Anglo, as a Texan, I think that Cinco de Mayo ought to be celebrated. Demographics aside, Ignacio de Zaragosa was born in Texas and if US citizens can celebrate the martial exploits of Texas-born folk like Dwight D. Eisenhower and Chester Nimitz, I see no reason why we can't celbrate Ignacio de Zaragosa's feat, too.

[Warpy]

70. No kidding. I'm in a border state

and the more enlightened ranchers near the border have left water and food stations along the trails because working folks never seem to carry adequate amounts of either for that week long trek across the desert.

They've found the practice getting increasingly dangerous and that they've been threatened by thugs waving guns when they've gotten anywhere near the trails.

That's incredibly sad to me. We need to end the damn drug war, take the profit out of the black market, and send the thugs into another line of work.

[Greyhound]

15. You give far too much credit to the criminal thugs.

they, like all "gangsters", are cowardly bullies, and do not have the skills nor training for a stand-up fight. Of course the minute men are no better and should there ever be a direct confrontation, the most likely result will be a huge waste of ammunition and a few innocent by-standers accidentally wounded.

[Vogon_Glory]

29. At Least Some of The Gulf Cartel Had Military Training

At least some of the Gulf drug cartel has had military training. According to papers like the Dallas Morning News (A far more reliable source than WND, NewsMax, or other right-wing propaganda organs), many were hired away from the Mexican army after their terms of enlistment expired.

One of the major unremarked faults of the Republicans is that they have failed, and failed, and failed yet again to realize just how low salaries can undermine law enforcement and other parts of a civil society because it makes those segments susceptible to bribery and corruption.

[Greyhound]

45. Good point,

maybe you could go down there and read them some of your poetry?

But seriously, as for their military training, the Mexican army is nothing more than cowardly bullies in uniform, great at massacring unarmed civilians, but no stomach for a fight with an opponent that will shoot back.

[ComerPerro]

11. The minutemen are dangerous, not just to illegals

but possibly to American citizens.

Lets just say I don't trust those racist assholes one bit

[Dr. Jones]

19. Oh great, here we go again. "Racist Xenophobes." Can you be more original?

:eyes: :eyes:

Furthermore, how are the Minutemen "dangerous" to American citizens? That is LUDICROUS! Simply because a civilian group takes it upon themselves to protect our borders when our Bush-ass Government has failed to do so, they are "dangerous?" I'm no huge Minuteman fan, but I personally believe this group has every right to do what they're doing as long as they're doing it humanely (i.e., not harassing/beating up/shooting at the illegals). Now how then does this make them "Dangerous" - especially dangerous to the American people?

As I've said before many a time, the racist/xenophobic argument can be put to rest because it simply doesn't hold water. Nobody is disparaging a particular race of people here, and nobody is making racist comments at a particular group. To take the position that we need to secure our borders and figure out what to do with the illegals that are currently in our country is NOT in and of itself racist or xenophobic. So let's END this stupid, illogical, ad hominem attack RIGHT NOW.

On that note, i'd better skeedaddle before I get sucked into yet ANOTHER debate on immigration reform.
:hide:

[Ms. Clio]

28. Well, let's see what the Southern Poverty Law Center says about them

Minuteman Founder Said to Tolerate Neo-Nazis in Campaign

Neo-Nazis volunteered for Jim Gilchrist's recent congressional campaign and distributed racist propaganda at Gilchrist rallies with the full knowledge of the Minuteman Project co-founder and his campaign managers, according to a former Gilchrist campaign volunteer whose account is supported by photographs, video footage and postings on the white supremacist Web site Stormfront.

"They were basically allowing Skinheads and white nationalists to work the phone banks and do IT and distribute National Alliance fliers targeting non-whites," Cliff May, a dance instructor in Orange County, Calif., told the Intelligence Report. "When I told Mary and Eldon that I didn't want to work for a campaign that was tainted by white supremacy in any way, they told me not to cause a stir.

"When I kept bringing it up, they kicked me out."

Photographs taken at an Oct. 29 Gilchrist rally in Sacramento show a man outfitted like a Nazi Skinhead distributing propaganda from the neo-Nazi National Alliance. "I talked with Gilchrist about it and he said they'd decided to, in his words, 'let it go,'" May said. Three weeks later, May says he spotted two neo-Nazis among a crowd of Gilchrist campaign volunteers at a City Council meeting in Lake Forest, Calif. May recognized the young man and woman from photographs of neo-Nazis giving seig-heil salutes in front of swastika banners at an anti-immigration protest in Laguna Beach four months earlier, in July. May said he videotaped the neo-Nazis at the November meeting in Lake Forest and immediately afterward played the footage on a big screen television at Gilchrist's campaign headquarters.

"I identified the couple on the tape as white supremacists and started asking everyone if they'd actually been working the office, and the front desk person and other volunteers said they had," said May. "Gilchrist was there and stated that he didn't want to deal with it and he left." May said he later learned from Gilchrist's campaign managers that some neo-Nazis were told they could work for the campaign as long as they kept their ideology quiet. "Gilchrist had assured the media several times he had a zero tolerance policy toward white supremacists. But from what I saw from the inside, it was more like, 'Don't ask, don't tell,'" May said.

[ComerPerro]

54. Thank you. Exactly what I was getting at

[Dr. Jones]

62. Am I a xenophobe/racist to disagree with the Minutemen for allowing

a racist group into their midst? That was indeed a BAD move on their part which obviously has discredited their cause. I'm not that familiar with the Minuteman movement, but if I was into it I most certainly would have disagreed with them on this one.

I'm rather indifferent about the Minutemen but this I can say, there were also radical elements in the Civil Rights Movement who went against Dr. King's philosophy of peaceful resistance. Did this discredit the entire movement? No! Point is, sometimes these groups for whatever reason allow the unsavory to enter into their midst, but it doesn't always have the effect of discrediting the entire overall movement.

With the Minutemen, this decision was made by the leadership. I bet if you asked some Minutemen some may have racist tendencies, but probably not the majority. Anyway they should have told the racist group to "get the hell out of here."

[Ms. Clio]

65. Shift and dance and bob and weave

It's fascinating to watch.

[Dr. Jones]

97. I just can't please you, Ms. Clio, no matter how hard I try.

Now come on, gimme a hug. You know you want to.

:hug:

[Ms. Clio]

67. " I'm not that familiar with the Minuteman movement"

Really? Then maybe you should have researched them before defending them tirelessly on a near-daily basis.

[Garbo 2004]

83. And yet you continue to point to some alleged radical notion of Mexico

taking back the Southwest which no one, except apparently RWers and their fellow travelers, takes seriously.

But it makes for good propaganda. The "Yellow Peril" revisited.

[Ms. Clio]

84. The "Yellow Peril" !! Yes, exactly!

Updated to add:

CREATION OF THE YELLOW PERIL:
A STUDY OF AMERICA’S EARLY CHINESE IMMIGRANTS>

Patricia Leong Kappel

Lured to Gum San (“The Gold Mountain”) by the discovery of gold in California in 1848,
thousands of Chinese men left their families and a homeland, wrought with drought, floods,
famine, and rebellion. Unlike most European immigrants before them, the early Chinese had no
intention of building a new life in America; instead, they were intent upon securing their fortunes
and returning home to their families. However, racism, nativism, and exclusion distinguished the
experience of these Chinese immigrants from that of their European counterparts, and altered the
course of their lives.

Competition for gold was only one reason why the welcome extended the Chinese was shortlived.
As the flow of Chinese immigrants increased, their numbers magnified their racial and
cultural differences in a society grown increasingly intolerant and suspicious of foreigners. Their
non-assimilation into a non-receptive culture fueled xenophobic fears that were exacerbated by
the "contrary" presence exhibited by the Chinese in their appearance, dress, speech, and
customs. In the Chinatowns, opium dens and prostitution flourished from the trade of the majority
male population, whose bachelor life was imposed by restrictive, discriminatory immigration
practices that kept wives and families from entering the United States. However, the White
perception of Chinese immorality and criminality was ignited, and it intensified the collusive work
of nativists and U.S. labor to take action against the influx of these “wage-busting” immigrants.
As a result, educational, economic, social, and political barriers were erected, many by U.S.
legislation, which included the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, naming the Chinese as the only
people in United States history to be specifically barred from American emigration.

This societal banishment of the Chinese created insulated and isolated communities. In these
Chinatowns, the Chinese found refuge from murder and persecution through benevolent
associations, similar to those formed around clans in China. With help from outside groups like
the Methodist Mission House and the YWCA, the Six Companies, later known as the Chinese
Consolidated Benevolent Association (CCBA), provided a link to homeland and eventually to the
White culture. The CCBA became a social, economic, and political force, which strengthened and
established stability in this Confucian-based culture. Through the efforts of the CCBA and the
assistance of sympathetic outside supporters, the Chinese survived the oppression of a hostile
host culture and transitioned into American society to become a "model minority."

[Dr. Jones]

184. Fascinating article, thanks. History repeats itself?

Point of the article is, while the Chinese Exclusion Act led to increased hostility for a short time, the Chinese did successfully integrate into American culture and all is well. It's a success story IMO, and it shows that if the same Act was applied to present-day illegals, they would follow the same course of success. Perhaps another such Act is what America and the illegals need to get on that same path to successful integration.

[0007]

100. Bad form Dr. Jones bad form.

[Beacho]

129. The Minutemen ARE racist xenophoibic thugs

But you will ignore anyting I post, like you've ignored anyting else that lies contrary to your preconceived opnions.

btw

THIS IS NOT A CRISIS. It was manufactured by a desperate GOP looking ofr another wedge issue for the midterms. They miscalculated and left a steaming pile of bullshit with this phony 'invasion'.

[Ms. Clio]

131. yes, but don't stop posting it

If you have links, even better.

[Beacho]

143. You wish It, I Dish It

Orcinus Exposes The Minutemen

I linked to the intro of the article, to the left you'll see links to the whole six part series.

Bookmark for the next time someone tries to tell you the Minutemen are 'just concerned citizens'.

[Ms. Clio]

146. Another outstanding find

Thanks so much!

[Dr. Jones]

196. An interesting read, but full of heresay and conjecture.

Short on actual facts and hands-on research, long on conjecture and heresay. Again trying to make the point that since a handful of racially-motivated individuals have eeked into the Minuteman movement, the entire pro-immigration reform movement is therefore racist at its core.

I am against racism in all its forms, as is virtually everyone here. But I also realize there are a few bad apples in every bushel. That's just the way it is. But you don't throw out the entire bushel just because of a couple of bad apples, do you?

It still does not answer the question, how is desiring border security racist? What makes this such a hot topic along racial lines?

[Beacho]

197. Handful of racists?

Like the goddam founder?

Whatever dude. You didn't even read it, did you? It's all well researched and backed up by FACTS.

[gordianot]

21. Right, they are well armed and some can shoot straight.

He who shoots first straightest wins. Some of these old men know how to do it, are very well equipped, and are veterans of previous conflicts. The ones I have met despise Bush. Never underestimate an armed nut.

Armed vigilantes are as dangerous as criminals.

[ComerPerro]

53. I seriously doubt that many of them are vets

[corporate_mike]

14. US gov't agency reports to a foreign nation the movements of US citizens

The Border Patrol is part of Homeland Security which is under the Executive Branch of government.

[Ms. Clio]

32. so they don't get their fat racist asses shot to hell

although it would serve them right.

[Dr. Jones]

40. Gee whiz. Maybe you are racist against the Minutemen?

Because some blacks are starting to support their cause due to their increasing anger that their jobs are being usurped by illegal workers.

Funny how you go from calling me and others racists/xenophobes, then you turn around and openly WISH FOR the Minutemen's "fat racist asses" to be "shot to hell."

[Ms. Clio]

42. Southern Poverty Law Center -- no response to that? I thought not

[DeaconBlues]

114. So you believe the punishment for being concerned about border policy

and setting up watchposts which simply report to the authorities any suspicious activity - should be death?!?!

Gee, don't let your ideology turn you into a monster or anything.

[Ms. Clio]

118. Is that what you think the Minutemen are?

I hate to get accused of spamming the thread again, so I will just say, why don't you read it a bit more carefully?

[DeaconBlues]

127. Yep, most of the Minutemen are just concerned, law-abiding citizens

However, even though the leadership has made a concerted effort to get rid of the bad element, there may still be people who have neo-Nazi leanings, etc. There are bad apples in all organizations. But despite what groups like Southern Poverty Law try to claim, they are a small minority.

But even if the Minutemen consisted solely of Nazis, this doesn't mean they deserve to shot. But this is what you seem to advocate. And if you believe that people who don't behave or think in the way that is acceptable to you should be shot, how are you different from the Nazis?

[Ms. Clio]

130. But illegals do deserve to be shot?

You do know that's what some Minutemen advocate? So when the SPLC calls other hate groups racists and xenophobes, do you just shrug that off, too, and say, "I'm sure most Klan members are good citizens and perfectly jolly fellows?"

And just cut it out with the overblow rhetoric. I've posted thousands of times on this board and I've never called for any such thing.

Interesting technique, though.

[DeaconBlues]

140. Your words from a few posts up

"so they don't get their fat racist asses shot to hell, although it would serve them right" Clearly this shows that you believe that the Minutemen deserve to be shot. Selective memory is the damnest thing.

SPLC has done some great things, but they are out of bounds if they are trying to label the Minutemen as a hate group. As far as what the Minutemen advocate, I thought it was tighter border security. And this is fine and dandy with me.

[Ms. Clio]

141. Yeah, you know more about hate groups than they do

And I will be looking forward to seeing all your posts chiding DUers who express similar heated remarks about others who irritate them.

Sure will be an exhausting task. Good luck.

[DeaconBlues]

152. unlike certain people, I am unwilling to give up all my critical faculties

just because a certain organization states a certain position. I'll think for myself, thank you.

"And I will be looking forward to seeing all your posts chiding DUers who express similar heated remarks about others who irritate them. Sure will be an exhausting task. Good luck." Sorry, it ain't my job. But I do enjoy pointing out hypocricy when I run into it on threads I stumble across (Like, for instance: "The Minutemen are Nazis. This means they should be shot.")

[Ms. Clio]

155. Hyberbole is your drug of choice

"The Minutemen are Nazis. This means they should be shot."

Nobody said that. But carry on. There's a thread about chickenhawk College Rebublicans that needs your critical faculties, BTW.

[DeaconBlues]

158. no hyperbole - just the facts, ma'am

Authoritarianism, from either the right or the left, is a nasty thing.

Do you still think that members of the Minutemen deserve to be shot? Or did you conveniently forget that you made this statement yet again.

[Jim Warren]

166. Shrill and vitriolic

Reading through this thread I'm struck by overwhelming arrogance and lack of care what another's opinion might be. Voice your opinions, however they are not the final word on anything.

[corporate_mike]

181. Ms Clio has to have the final word

She's an expert in everything :)

[Bridget Burke]

16. Good.

Everyone along the Border needs to know where the well-armed fools are heading next.

Of course, they will leave the area soon. Summer's coming.

[Howardx]

27. dr. jones

posting anti latino stuff again, surprise surprise.

[jerry611]

41. Just reinforces the theory...

...that our government will stop at nothing to make sure the flow of slave labor continues to pour over our border.

It's disgusting.

[Ms. Clio]

43. well, git yer gun

the Minutemen need you.

[jerry611]

46. Illegal immigration needs to stop

I dont support the minutemen, but I sure as hell don't support illegal immigration either.

[Ms. Clio]

48. okay, cool, you're entitled to your opinion

[corporate_mike]

55. really? we have your permission to have an opinion?

wow, thank you

[Ms. Clio]

57. Southern Poverty Law Center

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610

[corporate_mike]

59. spam?

how many more times will post that same link on this thread?

[Ms. Clio]

61. Nope. Just speaking truth to truthiness n/t

[Kansas Wyatt]

75. Okay Ms. Clio

How about the U.S. Government only targeting employers employing illegal workers with massive fines and a three strikes penalty, where the employers business and it's assets are seized. All proceeds from fines and seizures would go to an Extended Unemployment Fund, which provides unemployment benefits after the regular State's benefits run out for legal workers (citizens & legal immigrants). Employers will immediately find out who is an illegal worker, because they are not going to risk losing money or their business to the legal workers they are screwing out of fair wages and conditions. Illegal workers would have no choice but to return to their home country, since they would no longer be able to survive without any means in the U.S.

This does not target illegals at all, nor does it offer any legal status or immunity to existing laws. It targets those employing illegal workers. Illegals would still be subject to the laws they knowingly violated and have already agreed to the penalties for violating those laws, when they illegally entered. They already made that choice, and agreed to the terms. There is no re-negotiation, and adequate funding and enforcement should be applied by the U.S. Government, to ensure the law is being obeyed. Still, this does nothing to target illegal immigrants, and they have already agreed to the consequences of the law.

[Ms. Clio]

79. Much of that sounds plausible -- I don't claim to know what the answer is

But I'm all for discussions of rational solutions. I would like to hear such proposals discussed by genuine experts and Dem policy shapers and politicians.

[Bridget Burke]

68. So click on the link & give your rebuttal.

Surely you can come up with many arguments proving the Southern Poverty Law Center wrong.

[corporate_mike]

87. I live in NYC

I don't claim to know what's going on down there, however, I find it alarming that a US government aganecy is sharing information to a foreign governement about the movement of US citizens in their own country.

[TX-RAT]

88. As do I

[Bridget Burke]

90. Well, if you don't claim to know what's going on "down there"....

Why don't you try to learn? The article points out how Nazi skinheads & other white supremacists have found common cause with the Minutemen. The leaders of the Minutemen don't mind at all. Those who defend the Minutemen but bristle at cries of "xenophobia" & "racism" ought to find out what's going on.

The Minutemen are loudmouths with guns. They could get into trouble down along the Border & could cause others to be hurt. Our government is doing the right thing.

[Dr. Jones]

101. That's not ENTIRELY the truth.

As per the link you guys keep spamming on (despite our multiple responses to that story which you conveniently keep "overlooking"), the Minutemen said:

"Gilchrist had assured the media several times he had a zero tolerance policy toward white supremacists."

Now I personally think Gilchrist should tell 'em to get the hell outta here. I disagree with the racists as much as anyone else here would. But clearly, he did tell the media that racist groups are not to be tolerated within the group. You guys are making it sound like he invited them in carte blanche, and is of the same ideology as the racists. You are twisting Gilchrist's words into something they're not and trying to frame the issue as the Minutemen merrily working with and supporting the racist groups! But clearly from the article you keep spamming on us, it's not the truth, is it?

Now if THIS ONE STORY is the ONLY STORY you guys use to justify labeling everyone else who disagrees with you as "racist" and "xenophobic," then you most certainly do have a very hard time justifying your continuing attacks on people because your defense is so weak. But it certainly speaks volumes as to why you continue the attacks despite the fact that all we're calling for here is for the U.S. to enforce its own laws, and in particular, to enforce the borders.

[Ms. Clio]

93. Well, here's what Steve Gilliard posted the other day about NYC

and immigration:

New Yorkers Like Immigrants

Smiling on our immigrants

Poll finds 70% back those in city illegally

A Daily News poll found that two-thirds of city residents believe immigrants make New York City a better place to live, compared with just 15% who say they make it worse.

At the same time, New Yorkers are much more divided over those who are here illegally, and they think U.S. citizenship should remain a privilege, not an automatic right.

"Clearly, New Yorkers see the city as a better place because it has so many immigrants," said Mickey Blum of Blum & Weprin Associates, the firm that conducted the poll for The News. "At the same time, they think citizenship needs to be earned."

The findings offer a more immigrant-friendly view than the rest of the nation, which typically lacks the diversity of the city's teeming melting pot, and comes as Congress is heatedly debating immigration reform after waves of protests across the country.

A full 70% of New Yorkers say they think illegal immigrants who are here now should be allowed to stay in the United States and become citizens - but only if they meet certain requirements over a period of time.

[corporate_mike]

124. you're not very bright, are you?

That makes a lot of sense.

NYC is primarily made up of white collar workers: CEOs, bankers, lawyers, Wall Street guys, etc. They're jobs are not in danger of low skilled illegals.

But as Democrats, we should care about the middle and lower classes of the population, whose jobs are taken by illegals in the construction, hospitality, etc. industries.

[Ms. Clio]

125. Apparently the whole numbers thing escapes you

but the idea that "NYC is primarily made up of white collar workers: CEOs, bankers, lawyers, Wall Street guys" tends to indicate to me, anyway, that you don't actually live there.

[Bridget Burke]

132. Perhaps corporate_NYC is not the same New York City....

That you know.

I've only visited--but I seem to recall a large variety of folks.

[Ms. Clio]

135. that must be it

I've never even been there, but I was under the strange impression that it was considered one of the world's greatest melting pots.

[corporate_mike]

147. the avg, 1 bedroom apartment in Manhattan is over $1 million

people working for minimum wage would be hard pressed to buy one :)

[Ms. Clio]

149. Nowhere does the poll say "Manhattan" it says NYC

perhaps someone who knows more about it can tell me if NYC refers only to Manhattan?

[foreverdem]

200. I've lived in NYC for over 20 years

And corporate mike is abolutely right.

While NYC is not exclusively limited to Manhattan, the rents are maybe a fraction lower in the other 4 boroughs. If you are looking for affordable housing, you're in the wrong place.

NYC made up of primarily white collar employees.

The NY Daily News is hardly a credible source. It's a rag. You might as well quote the NY Post if you are going to quote the Daily News.

[Ms. Clio]

202. We're not talking about rents at all

And I'll wait to hear from a few other New Yorkers before I believe that it's a "white collar city." Hmmm. Perhaps I'll go ask Steve Gilliard.

[foreverdem]

208. You can ask whoever you want

You're going to cite an article that gives the views of 501 people surveyed? I a city of 8 million, I hardly think that the responses of 501 people reflect the views of the majority of the city. Maybe you'd like to aske Steve Gillard about letter after letter on the LTTE page where NY'ers give their views on illegal immigration. I doubt you would ever site the Daily News again.

Go ahead and keep asking until you get the answer you want to hear, no matter how incorrect it is.

corporate mike brought up how much it costs to live here, which is why I addressed it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

161. You make a moronic statement like that and then

question people’s intelligence? :rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

165. Shouldn't "movement of US citizens" actually read

"armed vigilante militia"?

If there was a Mexican militia roving the border threatening to attack Americans, wouldn't we like to know about it? Pancho Villa comes to mind.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

174. And I'm becoming certain that nobody here has a single credible source

for any of their opinions. That's right about the time the personal attacks begin.

[Bridget Burke]

180. You have not yet begun to think.

Alas.

It's nice that you care for animals. Perhaps, someday, you will learn to care about people.

[Cleita]

73. The Minutemen should be arrested as vigilantes, which is

against the law. They are interfering with the Border Patrol and if they want more law enforcement then they need to vote in the tax increases to pay for a beefed up and more effective border patrol, but taking the law into their own hands alienates those agencies, who are made to look like they aren't doing their jobs, and this is the result.

Way to go all you stupid Minutemen jerks.

[TX-RAT]

86. If their on private property, you can't touch them.

[Bridget Burke]

122. Only if they get permission to be ON that private property.

I doubt many long-time Border residents want those fools stumbling around their acreage.

[TX-RAT]

172. From what i hear their being invited by the owners.

With the owners taking part in the patrols.

[Bridget Burke]

183. Where did you hear that?

I'm sure some owners of Retirement Ranchettes will help. Who else?

[TX-RAT]

187. Whats a Ranchette?

[jerry611]

96. Shouldn't illegal aliens also be arrested?

What they are doing is against the law as well...

[Cleita]

153. They are arrested when they are caught and sent back across

the border. After they are in here, it's the INS who is supposed to arrest them, but the way the law is written it's almost unenforcible because it favors the employer who will keep hiring illegal labor either from necessity or greed until a solution can be found that will benefit both sides.

As far as the sector that just doesn't want any Mexicans here, I feel their rational or maybe irrationality about the matter isn't an issue.

[ulysses]

74. it's called "not having an international incident"

And yes, an armed band of poltroons galivanting around the desert looking for trouble is, in fact, different than some laborers trying to sneak across the border at night.

[DeaconBlues]

120. yes, it is different

Having people sneak across the border is worse. The Minutemen are obeying all laws, despite your belief that they are poltroons. Those who come across illegally, on the other hand....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. Good.

If there were a bunch of gun toting redneck racists marching through my neighborhood I'd hope somebody would inform me about it.

[aikoaiko]

92. LEO generally don't like civilians doing their jobs -- makes em look bad.

Community watches, guardian angels, minutemen, etc have all seen LEO try to minimize their DIY safety-crime monitoring.

eta: There are lines that shouldn't be crossed as civlians (e.g., vigilantism) but if they are acting legally then LEO should STFU and accept the help.

[Critters2]

169. Then they should do their jobs

That would help

[ContraBass Black]

110. Heaven forbid the Minutemen should be announced

So that they don't get shot.

[corporate_mike]

121. Who got shot?

People can't take you seriously when you keep making statements like that

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

151. People can't take the minutemen seriously...

what with always waving around swastikas and confederate flags.

[Beacho]

133. Video of the Minutemen In action

Local Arizona Report On The Minutemen


One poster here claimed the Minutemen are no threat to 'real 'murricans', this video proves that is not true. These are thugs interested only in bullying who ever they can, anglo/mexican, citizen or non citizen.

[Ms. Clio]

139. outstanding find, thanks

From the article:

"These groups are popping up right and left, most of them off-shoots of the widely-publicized Minuteman Project.

We wanted to see what the members of these groups are like when they're in their own element - away from reporters and photographers.

So a month and a-half ago.. we packed our hidden cameras.. and "signed up.

(...)

These are anti-immigration vigilantes, taking action, mobilizing in theArizona desert, driven by a conviction.



Pineapple 6 says, "These f___ing Mexicans. They will kill you. They don't give a f__k."



That Mexican immigrants are public enemy number one.



Fred Puckett says, "And once you shoot a couple of these son of a b@#$%es, they'll think twice."



We know their story because for a month we went undercover and joined them.

The assignment took us to the desert southwest of Tucson, where members of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps were kicking off a month-long operation near the border. With volunteers that came from all over the country, from North Carolina to California and plenty of places in between.

[Beacho]

144. Check my post above

I linked to a series done by D. Niewert that should prove useful

[Ms. Clio]

150. thanks!!

:yourock:

[Beacho]

156. Now watch the 'usual suspects' run and hide

This is about the third or fourth time I've encountered the "Brown people are coming to get us!" and "Minutemen are concerned citizens" crowd.

Now you'll be ready for them, although you pretty much were anyway.

:toast:

[corporate_mike]

159. If I find a video where anti-war protesters act improperly

will you label all anti-war protesters lunatics?

[Beacho]

164. That's just one my friend

and there will be plenty more where that came from, these assholes can't help themselves.

You want to hitch your wagon to these hate filled fucks, that's your decision.

This whole "Brown Invasion" thing is a manufactured crisis. These thugs are the 21st century version of Posse Commitatus and The Know Nothings

[Critters2]

170. You forgot "racists" and xenophobes" nt

[AlphaCentauri]

137. Are they building fences around them selfs?

[laheina]

154. Now *that* would help somebody!

:rofl:

[AlphaCentauri]

163. Please, when the minutemen finished their fences

Lock 'em All Up! in it.

:evilgrin:

[Cleita]

168. I feel the same way about gated communities where the

homeowners don't want anyone who isn't white in them. Let them have their gated community and let them stay in them. Then the rest of us can go about our business without having to deal with their ugly hatred.

[El Fuego]

207. I live in a gated community, I just want to keep the New Yorkers out.

I'm really happy about the fact that young professional Hispanics are moving into my community and displacing all the cranky obnoxious old northerners. Our new next door (Hispanic) neighbors are awesome, she's a nurse and he's a school teacher, but the only thing I don't like is that they have bush/cheney 04 stickers on their cars. I'm hoping more people like them will move in and drive out more of the aging carpet-bagging yankees.

Hey, SPREAD THE HATE! We've got enough hate here for everybody! :evilgrin:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

171. The Minutemen have a proud heritage to follow.

[jerry611]

203. I dont agree with the minuteman...

But to say they are Nazis makes you look like an ignorant fool that never picked up a history book.

I've talked face to face with people that have lived through the holocaust. I have studied lots of history dealing with that period. And it just embarrasses me when my fellow liberals and democrats and DUers try to make some stupid-ass comparison that "Bush is Hitler!" or that "conservatives are Nazis!" I know many conservatives...they are NOT Nazis. I know Bush supporters...they are NOT Nazis.

I would LOVE for you to listen to the stories of the people that lived through Nazi Germany, and THEN I would like to see you try to compare our current government to the Nazis. Bush is bad, you will never get an argument out of me on that point. But there is no comparison even in the slightest to the evil that took place in Germany during WWII.

My mother is a big conservative that voted twice for Bush. She supports the Minutemen. Does that make her a Nazi?
We need to stop insulting one another or we will never bring this country back together.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

205. I refer you to "I Will Bear Witness" by Victor Klemperer.

For similarities. Get back to me after you've studied that history, in the form of a diary, by a German Jew who describes how the "good Germans" went along with the racist policies of the Nazis.

[Ksec]

176. More of the same from our gov.

Say they want secure borders and then invite them in.

What a country. Now we have the same amount of illegals as there are people in Ohio. Idiots.

[AllieB]

185. Thank you to Ms. Clio and Bridget Burke!

:toast:

Thank you for providing reputable links and cogent arguments. This thread would be pretty scary otherwise!

[Ms. Clio]

188. well thank goodness not EVERYBODY thinks I'm shrill & vitriolic

or an illegal alien. :evilgrin:

Thanks, Allie -- very glad you found it helpful.

:toast:

[Bridget Burke]

190. You're welcome.

But this stuff can get tiring.

[corporate_mike]

209. you mean spam the thread with the same link over and over again?

[Bridget Burke]

211. Did you ever check out that link?

Some of us are still waiting for your rebuttal.

[AllieB]

212. Reading is fundamental

I know you have trouble posting reputable links, but my post was praising Bridget Burke and Ms Clio, and didn't require a link.

[Fountain79]

198. Why is there a minuteman group? n/t

[lonestarnot]

199. because the hourman group have their panties in a wad.

[AllieB]

206. They certainly don't do the name justice

that's for sure.

[corporate_mike]

213. Illegals depress wages for US citizens

Federal authorities said the 76 illegal workers were all arrested on Fischer job sites - at the Tree Top subdivision in Hebron and at the Tara subdivision in Plantation Pointe in Florence.

The men performed skilled labor such as framing, drywalling and roofing, according to court documents. One attorney said they were paid $7 to $10 an hour, significantly below the average wage for such work.

According to the Carpenters Union, union carpenters averaged $20.45 an hour in 2000, and nonunion carpenters averaged $13.51. Union drywallers averaged $17.93 an hour in 2000, and nonunion workers averaged $12.19.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060510/NEWS01/605100364

[AllieB]

214. Then work to help unionize people, or to get the companies that hire them

prosecuted.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

215. But but but going after rich people ain't nearly as fun! -nt

[AllieB]

216. It's much easier to pick on brown people

:sarcasm: