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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 10:52 AM
Original message
Anticipating a Frog March in May


This morning might be a good time to examine some of the questions about how the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation of the Plame scandal could result in Karl Rove's being indicted. Indeed, the month of May, 2006 could hold the answer to Ambassador Joseph Wilson's question, "Wouldn't it be fun to see Karl Rove frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs?" (The Politics of Truth; page 372) Let's take a closer look at "Official A" and the grand jury.

1-Q: How did Patrick Fitzgerald get involved with this case? Did it have anything to do with Karl Rove?

A: Several months after the CIA got the Department of Justice to investigate the leaking of Valerie Plame's identity, Attorney General John Ashcroft recused himself. A footnote found on page 173 of John Dean's wonderful book, "Worse Than Watergate," sheds light on why:

"A much-rumored source of the leak has been Karl Rove, who was a consultant to Ashcroft during one or more of his political campaigns and the person many believe secured Ashcroft his post as attorney general. For this reason, as soon as the investigation commenced, there were emands that Ashcroft either appoint a special counsel or recuse himself. He stalled as long as possible before finally giving way, sending more signals that he did not want this investigation to get out of hand."

After Ashcroft recused himself, his deputy James Comey, appointed Patrick Fitzgerald. Thus, there is an interesting relationship between Mr. Fitzgerald's role in the investigation, and Mr. Rove's role in the scandal.

2-Q: What was the goal of Mr. Fitzgerald's investigation? Are the right-wing experts like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter correct in their belief that he was only supposed to investigate if anyone violated a specific statute regarding exposing a CIA agent's identity?

A: In his October 28, 2005 press conference, Mr. Fitzgerald answered this question. "So let me tell you a little bit about how an investigation works. Investigators do not set out to investigate the statute, they set out to gather the facts. It's critical that when an investigation is conducted by prosecutors, agents and a grand jury they learn who, what when, where and why. And then they decide, based upon accurate facts, whether a crime has been committed, who committed the crime, whether you can prove the crime and whether the crime should be charged."

As this case moves forward, there will be further attempts by the administration to distort the truth about this case. This will include weasals like Hannity and Coulter. It is worth noting that Fox News continues to use Newt Gingrich as an "expert" who gives analysis without revealing to viewers that he participated in the efforts to destroy Joseph Wilson and his wife.

3-Q: Was there an effort to destroy the Wilsons? Hasn't Bill O'Reilly said that this was just political hardball?

A: In his April 19, 2006 article "Walking the White House plank," Sidney Blumenthal noted, "Two weeks ago, Fitzgerald filed a motion before the federal court in the Libby case stating that his investigation had proved that the White House engaged in 'concerted action' from 'a plan to discredit, punish or seek revenge against' former ambassador Joseph Wilson, who revealed that the rationale of the Iraq war was based on false information that the White House knew was bogus. Fitzgerald declared further that he had gathered 'evidence that multiple officials in the White House' had outed his wife's clandestine identity to reporters as an element of revenge."

In early 2003, in a series of discussions known as the "Plame Threads" on the Democratic Underground forum, I had stressed to readers that they keep in mind Neitzsche's teaching about the importance of knowing not just "how/," but more importantly "why?" At his press conference last October, Mr. Fitzgerald noted, "What we're talking about is why -- the investigation was why someone compromised her identity."

In his May 8, 2006, Rove's old friend Bill Israel summed up "why" Rove savaged the Wilsons: "Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife, CIA operative Valerie Plame, were simply the most important bodies in the way." (Karl Rove's Lessons for the Press)

4-Q: Why has the process taken so long? Hadn't the FBI investigated the leak? Couldn't Mr. Fitzgerald have simply run the basic information by the grand jury, and gotten indictments?

A: There are two general types of grand juries. The most common can be used by prosecutors to hear any case that arises within its jurisdiction, where the prosecutor is seeking an indictment. The second type is an investigatory grand jury. In his October 2005 press conference, Patrick Fitzgerald states more than a half-dozen times that the Plame grand jury had investigated the leak.

This included the important issues involving journalists, such as Judith Miller and Matt Cooper, in a part of the investigation that involved Amendment 1 issues. It included appeals that went to the US Supreme Court. Mr. Fitzgerald noted that he had gone to Judge Hogan in a "detailed, classified, sealed filing" to be sure the grand jury investigation of the issues involving the journalists was proper. The federal courts all were supportive of Fitzgerald's efforts. Then, as he stated, "...as you sit back, you want to learn: Why was the information going out? Why were people taking this information about Valerie Wilson and giving it to reporters?"

The grand jury's investigation was slowed by things including the lengthy appeal by the journalists; by Judith Miller's incarceration; and by efforts to conceal the truth from the grand jury. At this point, Scooter Libby has been charged with lying to investigators and to the grand jury. It is believed that Karl Rove may soon be indicted on similar charges.

5-Q: How does the grand jury work? Why doesn't the public know more about what the grand jury has done?

A: Let's look at a few quotes from Mr. Fitzgerald's 10-05 press conference. "There's another thing about a grand jury investigation. One of the obligations of the prosecutors and the grand juries is to keep the information obtained in the investigation secret, not to share it with the public."

"And one of things we do with a grand jury is we gather information. ... but the grand jury doesn't give an announcement about what they're doing, what their looking at, unless they charge an indictment."

"So I think the only way you can do an investigation like this is to hear from all witnesses. ...And if we don't prosecute, we keep quiet. ...I don't think people fully appreciate how an investigative grand jury can be different. You know, sometimes you can -- fairly routine to go into a grand jury and say, 'Mr. Eckenrode is going to testify about a bank robbery. Here's a picture of the guy with the gun in his hand, with a note. Here's his fingerprint on the note. And here's his confession. You know, how do you vote?' This grand jury is very, very different."

6-Q: Do people often lie in these circumstances? Why would Libby and Rove lie?

A: Again, to quote Mr. Fitzgerald from the press conference, it's "important that witnesses who come before a grand jury who may be under investigation, tell the complete truth. ... And anyone who would go into a grand jury and lie, obstruct and impede the investigation has committed a serious crime. ... And I'd say this: I think people might not understand this. We, as prosecutors and FBI agents, have to deal with false statements, obstruction of justice and perjury all the time. The Department of Justice charges those statutes all the time."

Thus, it appears that Libby and Rove have betrayed the public trust, and lied to cover up the truth about their participation in the campaign to destroy the Wilsons. They are common thugs. Shame, shame, shame on them.

7-Q: Yet some of the republicans are saying that Mr. Fitzgerald failed to charge anyone with the serious crime of exposing a CIA agent, and that I. Lewis Libby was charged with minor crimes. Is that a serious charge that diminishes what Mr. Fitzgerald has done, or is it mere spin?

A: Again, to quote Mr. Fitzgerald's press conference: "I'll be blunt. That talking point won't fly. If you're doing a national security investigation, .... (and a White House official) went before a federal grand jury and lied under oath repeatedly and fabricated a story ... and we prove obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements to the FBI, that is a very, very serious matter .... that, to me, defines a serious breach of the public trust.

"... at the end of the day, I think I want to say one more thing, which is: When you do a criminal case, if you find a violation, it doesn't really, in the end, matter what statute you use if you vindicate the interest."

8-Q: In the days before Scooter Libby was indicted, Karl Rove's attorney approached Mr. Fitzgerald with "new" evidence about how a conversation the attorney had with Vivica Novak had served to "refresh" Rove's memory about his conversation with Matt Cooper. It seemed like an attempt to make Rove's conversation with Cooper an isolated incident, which slipped his mind. Has any new evidence contradicted this?

A: Vivica Novak spoke with Mr. Fitzgerald twice, as detailed in "What Vivica Novak Told Fitzgerald," by Ms. Novak (Time; 12-11-05) Her story did not seem to support Rove's attorney's interpretation of events.

Also important, at the October press conference, a reporter asked about "some deferred e-mails that were produced by the White House very late in the investigation that, in fact, in part, triggered the expansion" of the investigation. Then, in February '06, Truthout broke the news that 250 pages of e-mails, apparently primarily from the OVP, had been recovered by the investigation. On April 7, Jason Leopold reported, "Rove did not disclose the communications when he was questioned" by the FBI or during his early appearances before the grand jury.Leopold reported that sources said the e-mails "contained suggestions by Rove ... on how the White House should respond to what it believed were increasingly destructive comments Wilson had been making" about the WMD evidence used to bring the nation to war in Iraq.

It is believed that Mr. Fitzgerald will ask the grand jury to consider charges related to the lies about his conversation to Matt Cooper. It is also likely that there is evidence indicating Mr. Rove lied about more than Matt Cooper.

9-Q: What do we know about this second grand jury?

A: Last December 14, MSNBC's David Shuster told Tucker Carlson the following: "First of all, it was a week ago today when he impaneled a new grand jury, presented new information, and again, prosecutors don't use new grand juries unless they want the panel to consider possible charges."

On April 26, 2006, both MSNBC and the Washington Post noted that Mr. Fitzgerald was beginning to hold sessions with the grand jury, after not meeting with them for several months. This was generally consistent with other reports by Jason Leopold on Truthout. Mr. Leopold had noted that the grand jury would begin to focus on the information it needed to consider if Mr. Fitzgerald were to ask them to return indictments. My reading of Mr. Leopold's articles has led me to conclude that sources close to the case have anticipated Mr. Fitzgerald would ask the grand jury to return indictments soon. I think that the process will begin this week, starting on Wednesday and perhaps Friday.

10-Q: How does a grand jury decide if Mr. Fitzgerald asks them to consider returning indictments against Karl Rove?

A: Let's look at what David Shuster told Chris Matthews on Hardball on October 26, 2005: "In order to indict, out of the 23 people who are assigned to serve on a grand jury, 16 on the panel must be present. At least 12 of those present must agree to the charge by answering in the affirmative to this question. ....

"At the DC federal courthouse, if the grand jury chooses to indict, the panel will move from the third floor grand jury room to a magistrate's courtroom on the first floor. There, open to the public, the indictment will be recieved by a judge who may choose to read part of it out loud before the charges are filed with the clerk."

If no indictments are returned, there will not be a press conference. But, if there are any charges filed, it is anticipated that Mr. Fitzgerald will meet with reporters. Indictments and pre-trial information is generally a matter of public record, and so we will learn more about what Mr. Fitzgerald has learned in his investigation. And, as he said in the Libby press conference:

"So I ask everyone involved in this process, anyone who participates in the trial, anyone who covers this trial, anyone sitting home watching these proceedings to follow this process with an American appreciation for our values and our dignity."
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent! Here is a message for you H2O man:
:yourock:
Thanks for keeping us so well informed on this subject. The ri
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks!
I imagine that it will be kind of fun to be on DU when the indictments are returned.
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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. You Think We're Looking At Days
As opposed to weeks, before we get good news?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think so.
I'd like to think that it's very close. I do know that even if Mr. Fitzgerald were to ask the grand jury for indictments tomorrow morning, it could take some time for them to decide. But I think that there is going to be a point where things unfold, rapidly.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Elegant, H20Man...K&R...and Recommended for the Front Page
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Excellent, as always
I always look forward to reading your posts. Thank you for laying it out so that I can understand what's really going on.
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Greybnk48 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent tutorial
very informative. Thank you H20 Man for keeping us informed!! k&r
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capi888 Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kudos H20
Great to have the analysis of this case so understandable! Thank You!
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. The anticipation is getting to me!
Great post! :thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. One question:
if the anticipation is getting to you, what do you think that Karl Rove is experiencing right now?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I can wait
Thanks for a great OP.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Excellent point!

"I am this close to indicting your ass, Karl!"

:rofl:
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. I live to see that worm swirm.
Only watching the one who will not be named being Frog marched off to the Hague for war crimes would top this thrill. Thanks for the primer!
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. I hope he is sweating bullets constantly
But, could he have a Bush pardon up his sleeve?

Even if he does get pardoned, a Rove indictment will send Bush's poll numbers even lower, I bet. Do I hear 28 or 29% approval?
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Not 28-29%
17 to 20 % sounds more like it to me.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. We can hope for that...
But, I was thinking that if Rove was indicted this week, polls that come out next week may have Bush sinking to the high 20s. Then, we start hearing Republicans running on the promise to impeach Bush!
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. An indictment immediate effect will send it to upper 20's. A pardon
it will go in the upper teens. So that is the hard part for Bushie
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Yes, but
Edited on Wed May-10-06 06:31 AM by NewJeffCT
Bush might figure a pardon is better than jail... look at Poppy Bush and the Iran-Contra pardons? Some speculate that Poppy might still be in jail if he hadn't pardoned all those traitors so the country could put it all behind us.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. It's possible.
First, I don't think anyone would argue that Bush has any sense of justice. Second, he loves to use the power his office and life circumstance has granted him.

It's also worth looking at history: There were pardons in Iran-Contra. And Ford pardoned Nixon. But Nixon did not pardon any of the Watergate fellows, even those who he was closest to. And even those who had been promised pardons.

If we look to Bush1, he granted them when he knew he would not return to office. By that standard, Bush2 would have granted them last January.

Nixon looked at what was best for him. He had a selfishness that is hard to match. Bush2 makes him look like Mother Teresa.

When Scotty McC was wimpering on the White House lawn, Bush was taking great pleasure in his friend's suffering. That is a personality trait that really stands out.

Bush also wants to take credit for the "good," and blame others for the "bad" in his administration. He will view punishment of others as proof that they were weak in their service to him.

Bush really cannot afford any pardons, except possibly in the final weeks of his term. I think the chances of any pardons is remote.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. I will trust in your judgement
I'm naturally a pessimist, so I tend to look for potential negatives and then I'm pleasantly surprised if things turn out better.

And, you are right about taking credit for the good & blaming others for the bad - they've made a whole industry out of blaming Clinton for everything bad out there. It might be the only growth industry Bush has actually created in his 5 1/2 years in office.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #69
80. Poppy mostly pardoned officials
from Reagan's misadministration.

He only pardoned a few people who were in his own misadministration.

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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. That is true
but, some of those Reagan officials could have testified against Bush in court.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. In this case,
think back to Bush yapping about his "political capital" that he was going to spend to push his agenda, back in January, 2005. Well, his capital is long-gone. He simply cannot afford to pardon anyone right now. And it is questionable if he will accumulate the capital to do it by his last week in office. He's not in a good position, and it could actually get worse for him. Scooter telling the grand jury that Bush & Cheney okayed his leaking the NIE to journalists closed the door on pardons for now, probably forever.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #38
75. Since Bush himself
my at some point become the focus of the investigation, pardons would not be a good idea.

The only pardon Bush is going to be worrying about soon is his own.




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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. (marvelous to contemplate, surely). . . . . .n/t
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
71. I am hoping he is wearing
some Depends. :rofl:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. "they set out to gather the facts"
That is important, because FitzG. deals in facts not Rovian innuendo or whispers. Do you think the newt will get pulled into this in one way or another?

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Good question.
I don't think that Mr. Fitzgerald is able to indict everyone who participated in the criminal activities involved in the case. Some of it is up to us. The congress needs to begin investigations that will lead to the impeachment of VP Cheney. We need to confront people like Newt. I think that if a human being is under a sort of a citizen's house arrest, and that person is sentenced to a life as a Fox consultant, that is kind of harsh. Sure, he belongs in jail, but Fox is a pretty ugly neighborhood in the cosmic sense.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. "if a human being is under a sort of a citizen's house arrest"
Don't understand what you're referring to regarding "I'm running for president" Newt

*shadow government*
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. Whistling in the dark? He's even got the shutters down and the
lights off. The ghost of Howard Hughes occasionally calls.
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foreverdem Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent post!
Thanks H2O Man, for breaking this all down for us the past months. The waiting and anticipation is really getting to me.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. This very important, not just American dignity, but recovered dignity.
I want to see a mug shot and would love to see another forced smile.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
17. thanks !
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks so much!
I have made a copy of this to share.

The "Why" ? is what keeps me so interested.

When we know "why" (and many of us have speculated) we will KNOW the truth.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
19. The GJ Info You Provide Is Especially Enlightening
It would seem after reading your essay, that the GJ operates differently than is commonly thought. A lot of conjecture on when an indictment will happen has been based on somewhat erroneous info.

*shadow government*
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
20. Excellent recap, H20Man...
I'm thinking it will be this Friday or next Friday; what do you think?

And on a different note, have you seen the Skull and Bones/Prescott Bush story about the desecration of Geronimo's grave, and the theft of Geronimo's remains? I hadn't heard anything about it before I saw the story this AM on DU; it may be old news to you, it may even be debunked. Is there anything to it, or has it even been looked into by anyone? If it were found to be true, how disgraceful and disgusting - but how completely in character for this family of criminals!

K&R for your most excellent post.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. That is excellent, thank you. Rove must have butterflies in his stomach
these days! For someone who has caused so much harm to others in his miserable lifetime, he doesn't get much sympathy from many people, I would imagine.

Reading the last two paragraphs though, there is the possibility that Rove might not be indicted. I don't see how that could happen, since it's obvious he lied, but what if the jury accepts his excuses, or is it possible, since Fitz explained that this GJ is the type that 'gathers the facts', that Rove 'turned' and his last appearance was arranged so that he could be a 'witness' rather than a defendent?

I guess I'm asking this ~ if the GJ does not indict Rove, should we take that to mean he made a deal and his information was so valuable (after all Judge Hogan described the crime Fitz is investigating as one of 'great magnitude') that Fitz decided the only way to get it on the record was to agree to let him off the hook for now?

Could he do that, as a prosecutor, to catch someone far more threatening to the welfare of the People, could he overlook perjury? Fitz has said that he 'won't be calling Rove as a witness' but that was before his last appearance before the GJ, wasn't it? Rove may have taken that as a signal that he would be indicted, and up against the wall, might have finally decided to cooperate?

I am doubtful this will happen, but there's always a possibilty, isn'there, that he won't be indicted. And I guess I want to be prepared for that and hope that it doesn't mean he wasn't guilty, but rather that in the public interest, his testimony is far more important than the threat he himself might pose. Just wondering, that's all.
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Jack from Charlotte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. The AWOL/moron will pardon Rove, regardless. (nt)
*
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
23. That final sentence, from Fitzgerald, makes me proud:
"So I ask everyone involved in this process, anyone who participates in the trial, anyone who covers this trial, anyone sitting home watching these proceedings to follow this process with an American appreciation for our values and our dignity."

Our values, and our dignity, being vindicated at long last after five of the most sordid years in the history of American government: priceless.


Thanks, H2O Man.


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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks again for such a concise and cogent
analysis of what has transpired. I look forward to Friday.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R!
Edited on Tue May-09-06 12:01 PM by Patsy Stone
Thanks, as always, for your clear explanation of the muddied mess they've made.

BTW:

"This morning might be a good time to examine some of the questions about how the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation of the Plame scandal could result in Karl Rove's being indicted."

As far as I'm concerned, ANY day is a good day to do this. :)
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. oh and call me susperstious...haha...
I was on a long road trip to visit my Mother the day Libby was indicted. I listened to Fitz's press conference on the radio in the car. Well...I'm off to visit my Mom for Mother's day on Friday...one can hope...:rofl:
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
27. Rove has destroyed many lives over the years.
It's about time karma came back to haunt him. Big time.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thanks to Fitzgerald for being able to look truth in the eye
Libby will have company soon, and they say misery loves company.

A good read. Thanks.
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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. Could Fitz's Investigation of Plame Reveal the Bush Mafia Overthrow of
Edited on Tue May-09-06 12:14 PM by Blaze Diem
the United States Government for profit, then, by simply starting with the Plame leak?
If indeed this is true..
" Then, as he stated, "...as you sit back, you want to learn: Why was the information going out? Why were people taking this information about Valerie Wilson and giving it to reporters."

Then would the gathering of information not also have given way to perhaps another bit of the "iceberg"?

The tip being the Plame leak and why?
The hidden base, yet to be revealed, would be "why George Bush needed to be chosen as President, the subsequent bombing of the World Trade Center and the push for invading IRAQ.
Its all related, in my opinion, as well as the demise of Bill Clinton's Presidency.
The power that smeared Bill Clinton and brought him to the brink of impeachment is the same that gave us the current GOP majority, George Bush's Presidency, via Diebold and the S.Court.
Its the same that then gave way to September 11, that lead the US demanding Bin Laden only to veer off to Iraq. Etc., Etc., Etc.

Could Fitz's gathering of information via the Plame case, reveal deeper and far more damaging corruption within the highest echelons of the White House?
Would he be obliged to follow through with proving a case against whomever stuck George Bush in the White House?
Who is really at the top of the pack? Foreign Nations perhaps..We all know its not George W Bush.
Corruption, cronyism, war for profit..sounds like a perfect job for Patrick Fitzgerald...I hope he never stops gathering information about this nasty rotted regime.

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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R... Excellent summary, as usual. Thank you...
I'm struck by the fragility of the entire process and how easy it could have been to cover it up had circumstances been such that Ashcroft had NOT recused himself. It appears to have all come down to the honor and integrity of one man, Patrick Fitzgerald. The importance of personal honor and integrity can't be overstated - in all walks of life. Without it, everything comes crashing down around us. Hence the gravity of the crimes committed by those who perjure and obstruct (as addressed in question #7). IMO it is one of the most serious crimes of all, because it undermines the very foundation of our fragile society.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
81. 2 men.
Don't forget Comey.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. That's one thorough analysis of the lead up to a possible frog march
Let's hope for the best.

Thanks for spending the time to put together such a long detailed post.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. Excellent summary of the situation to date!
I can't help but wonder what would have happened had Ashcroft done the honorable thing and appointed a special counsel at the onset instead of trying to keep in 'in-house' as it were. Libby and Rove started out by lying to the FBI in the initial investigation and had to keep lying afterward in hopes of not being found out. Would they have lied to a special counsel's investigators had they been the first to question them? One could almost thank Ashcroft for vainly trying to bury the investigation because, in their arrogance, they, themselves, laid the foundation for what has followed.

Thank you for your excellent summary, have bookmarked and recommended.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. Even if Rove is indicted the why won't be fully revealed.
The indictment charges will most likely be about Karl's lying toadying conduct during the investigation. A returned indictment will take Karl off the political battlefield just like Libby. That impairs the 2006 republican election chances but won't answer the question. This is strictly the legal equivalent of Fitzgerald washing his face and putting in eye drops so he can see more clearly.

The rightwing hack spin will be ferocious against Fitzgerald should the indictment mirror Scooter's. Obstruction, Lying, False Testimony completely neuters Bush's brain, but it clears the decks to go after bigger game. Rove is not so important as much as he would be a trophy to cement the republican culture of corruption.

The hard work of going after the NSC/WHIG principals is next. Libby & Rove will have compelling interest to deal as best they can and more quickly. Fitzgerald is under no time constraints and is strictly following the facts wherever they may lead at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Cheney & Bush can't fight the charges because they won't be about the Intelligence Act - yet. Fitzgerald reserves the right to tip the balance of power and bring more charges later.

This will be a legal case studied for posterity by attorneys. It has been done with the utmost regard to integrity and the preservation of American Democracy.

Bring. It. On! It will be a delight to share the upcoming developments with you! :popcorn:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kick!
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tiptoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
37. k & R!!
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
39. Thank you for continuing to make these wonderful posts.
Some days, it all seems so hopeless and then I read a post of hope for our country.

Thank you so much.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. Excellent summary
I am among those who believe Rove will be indicted soon. It would be wrong to base this on the idea that journalist A says so and journalist B says otherwise, but we all know that A is fairly independent and B is a Bush whore. Rather, I am noting that Shuster and others who think Rove will be indicted are talking about facts while those saying otherwise are merely giving a judgment like "his part in this was a mere ripple."
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. I'm perfectly willing to accept the possibility that Rove isn't indicted
if that means he's been singing his guts out to the Grand Jury on the higher ups. He's surely been talking about someone other than himself during those FIVE(5) sessions before the GJ.

The only question is, how will we know that was why he isn't indicted? I foresee a helluva lamentation and knashing of teeth, if that's the interim outcome, until the other indictments come down.

How WOULD we know if Rover cuts a deal?
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. cause he will have to face some kind of sentence I would think n/t
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. That's exactly the question I asked in my above posts and did mention
Edited on Tue May-09-06 04:42 PM by Catrina
the possibility of Rove not being indicted. And also, as you said, I wondered how, if he isn't, we would know why, and what it was he was able to give FitzG that was important enough for Fitz to make a deal with him.

The reason I am leery of getting too excited is because of the tactics Rove uses, as explained by his friend, Bill Israel in the article on Editor & Publisher yesterday. That's what made me think that Rove may be smiling to himself, after making his deal, knowing we and so many others are waiting for his indictment. His friend, Bill Israel says he will be indicted, but Rove may have misled him also.

I agree with you though, if he's talking and brings down Bush, Cheney, Bolton et al, I would be happy, and hope he'll be finished politically anyway, simply because he will be seen as not to be trusted anymore. Maybe Fitz might see it that way also.

It could be that someone other than Rove will be indicted soon ~ which would mean he talked. It might also mean, if he is indicted, that he has not cooperated. I think Fitz knows that he, Rove, might be the very best source he will find to get those at the top, who conspired to lie about war, and to cover the lies by outing an undercover agent. That may be why he spent so much time on him, trying force him into a corner.

So, is it a good thing if he's indicted? Maybe not!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Keep in mind that Mr. Libby's attorney
had detailed discussions with Mr. Fitzgerald in order to find a deal that he could accept. And Mr. Fitzgerald was clear: Libby broke the law in a very serious case, and would have to serve substantial jail time. Libby rejected the deal, and is going to trial. If Karl accepts a deal in the fairly immediate future, in order to avoid being indicted, you will know, because he would also have to make a plea that includes confessing to serious crime(s), and substantial jail time.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
92. "that includes confessing to serious crime(s), and substantial jail time.'
And perhaps "wearing a wire". Wooooweee!! Skinny Minnie! The very THOUGHT of that would wipe that silly smirk off Dubya's pie-hole!

pnorman
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. Kick
:kick:
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
46. Thanks for whetting my appetite!
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

They can spin, spin, spin, but the frogmarch will proceed!
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
48. Thank you seems so inadequate.
:thumbsup: :hi: :grouphug: :headbang: :yourock: :woohoo: :applause: :toast: :bounce:
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Patrick J Fitzgerald Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
49. Investigation 101...
Your quote, quoting me, explains my investigation very nicely...

"So let me tell you a little bit about how an investigation works. Investigators do not set out to investigate the statute, they set out to gather the facts. It's critical that when an investigation is conducted by prosecutors, agents and a grand jury they learn who, what when, where and why. And then they decide, based upon accurate facts, whether a crime has been committed, who committed the crime, whether you can prove the crime and whether the crime should be charged." - Yours Truly

Who: Karl Christian Rove

What: lying to investigators, perjury, obtruction of justice...

Where: in his office and before a federal grand jury...

Why: to throw sand in the eyes of justice to hide evil acts...

I expect the rest of this week to very busy! Must choose tie...

http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com


Meet my lil indictment countdown...
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Excellent summary.
Damn! I am trying to brace myself for the no indictment but hoping real hard there will be one for K. Rove.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Oh lord....
:eyes:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Two choices:
{1} darned kids these days; or

{2} mutant Elvis impersonators gone wild.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. LOL, H2O Man!
We all know it's not the real McCoy, don't we? ;-)

Julie
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Patrick. Sweetie. Cupcake!
I'm still waiting for you to answer my teeny-weeny little questions. The lasagna offer still stands, too. I promise I won't tell a soul!

:loveya:
Julie
president for life of the PFEB
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
56. An Insightful Read! Thank You!
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wovenpaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
59. Your posts are always so enjoyable
I really appreciate your taking the time and effort to put these together to educate us.
This case has been so intriguing-but so complicated...you've really helped to keep me up to date and informed.

You're a DU treasure!

Thank you!
:applause: :yourock:
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
60. Thanks H2O Man, yesterday I was hoping you would post about this soon
Edited on Tue May-09-06 06:29 PM by SheepyMcSheepster
Thanks, I was looking forward to another one of your synopsis posts. Please keep it up. Your insight is greatly appreciated. I am quite ignorant on the subject of grand jury proceedings, so you help me understand the sitution much better. You do a good thing here. Thanks!
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
61. Frog March Fest 2006!
Edited on Tue May-09-06 06:37 PM by Independent_Liberal
I'm ready for it!

:D
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
62. DU was first to report the FROG MARCH quote >
Edited on Tue May-09-06 08:25 PM by Stephanie



After this thread was posted, we found video of the Inslee event on his website. I transcribed the relevant Q&A and DU spread the quote far and wide. Once again, DU was lightyears ahead of the professional stenographers.



Rose Siding (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-21-03 07:23 PM
Original message
Guess what Joe Wilson told me today (the yellow cake guy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=211244

Well, me and about 2000 others. Jay Inslee put together a panel in his district to discuss Iraq and former ambassador Wilson was on it. Someone yelled out that they enjoyed him on the Daily Show -he said he had enjoyed doing it.

But my BIG news....One of the questions for him was about his wife and whether there is an investigation about that. He couched his answer in a hypothetical-

(I paraphrase until the last part)

"If that had happened and she isn't an agent, she would have much explaining to do to friends and business associates. It would be very inconvenient and could be seen as an intimidation of others who might speak in dissent toward the admin.

Were it true, lives could be put at risk. Were it true, there would be first an internal examination by the CIA- I assure you there are many professionals there that know what they are doing.

The FBI would then investigate- Even though Ashcroft is the AG, there are many professionals there as well. In that case, I would surely offer to be of any assistance to them that I could be.

Trust me when I say, nothing would please me more than seeing Karl Rove frog marched out of the White House in handcuffs -and when I use that name, I've measured my words"

The bold part is nearly verbatim -I wrote it down as soon as he said it. ROVE.

TWO THOUSAND people. On a Thrusday. In the afternoon. In the suburbs. I am so impressed with my community



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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
63. Kudos to you, H20Man! K&R! I don't generally care about Sean Hannity/
Ann Coulter "talking points" (straight from the Bush junta to our eyes), but H20Man is wise to address this one:

"2-Q: What was the goal of Mr. Fitzgerald's investigation? Are the right-wing experts like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter correct in their belief that he was only supposed to investigate if anyone violated a specific statute regarding exposing a CIA agent's identity?"

I recall that Mr. Fitzgerald had some very pointed things to say about this in the Libby press conference, namely, that he can't investigate whether or not someone violated the statute that protects a CIA agent's identity if people are lying to him and obstructing his investigation. He described the latter as akin to a baseball player breaking the rules and throwing sand in the eyes of the umpire so he can't see the violation.

He was also pointed about a number of other things. To the Bush junta "talking point" that perjury and obstruction are not serious charges, he said, quote, "That 'talking point' won't fly," unquote. And, as to the underlying gravity of the offense that he is charged with investigating--the matter that Libby is lying about and obstructing him on--he described it as a matter with grave implications for national security (a description that the federal court agreed with).

So much for the Bush junta's most rabid lapdogs, Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter. They think lying is not serious. They think obstructing a national security investigation means nothing. Much like the war profiteering corporate news monopolies who are paying their salaries, they have ceased being loyal to the United States of America. Their allegiance is to international oil cartels and arms dealers, and their tools in the White House. Our safety is of no concern to them. But if they can help get access to Iraqi and Iranian oil for their global corporate predator bosses, they will sacrifice us in a short minute, like the lunatics they are--and think nothing of the Bush junta using our government to do it, indebting us to the tune of $9 TRILLION, taking our young people as cannon fodder, besmirching our name from one end of the world to the other, slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people, torturing prisoners, breaking the law and destroying our democracy.

This is the "free press" that Thomas Jefferson dreamed of--and hoped would secure our country against executive tyranny?!

They think lying is not serious. They think obstructing a national security investigation means nothing. That's who they are. If they ever were Americans, they are of us no more. And I wish I could say that the Hannity's and the Coulter's are the exceptions in the U.S. news and opinion scene of today. They are not. There are various degrees of this war profiteering corporatism everywhere you look, in the so-called "mainstream" (actually far rightwing) "media."

Fitzgerald's simple and clear points about American values and dignity show them up for what they are. And we'll see if there is even a scrap of integrity or patriotism left in this far rightwing "mainstream" corporate news establishment, by how they handle what happens next.







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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
64. Your gaining more traction on your DU analyses, H2O Man!
Your post above made the Free-Market News Network.

See here:
http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=12690
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. Well,
that's nice to see!
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
97. nominated :) n/t
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sheelz Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
65. No mercy!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #65
112. "The Frog Hop" will soon be a new popular dance that will bug
the freepers to death.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
68. So let me get this straight.
Edited on Wed May-10-06 05:41 AM by coeur_de_lion
"A: Last December 14, MSNBC's David Shuster told Tucker Carlson the following: "First of all, it was a week ago today when he impaneled a new grand jury, presented new information, and again, prosecutors don't use new grand juries unless they want the panel to consider possible charges."


You're saying that Fitz wouldn't have bothered impaneling a second grand jury unless he was going to indict someone?

Further to that, you believe that indictments will be within the next week or so?

And most importantly, you believe that the indictments will concern our old friend Karl?

So sorry, I just want to reassure myself that I can look forward to some real progress (and justice) in this case.

Also -- I haven't been on DU much lately, so you've probably answered this question, but what do you make of the fact that Valerie Plame has a book deal with Random House?

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=1929736&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. You seem familiar .....
Are you from Florida? Are you an astrologer who channels the spirit of Martha Mitchell? Or was that someone else? You seem shorter than she.

Yes, Karl is going to be in trouble, soon. Keep your eyes on the news today and Friday.

Ms. Plame is writing a book for two reasons: first, to get a side of the story out that people have not heard yet; and second, because her employment came to an end due to the Cheneyites, and this will be a source of income. I look forward to reading it.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. now, be fair.
It isn't nice to make fun of poor Martha. Further more, I'm very tall for my height.

I am very much looking forward to conversations with my Repub. relatives who told me nothing would ever come of the Fitzgerald probe. I plan on being very magnanimous and not a bit smug.

When I say "I told you so" I won't be smiling, not on the outside. On the inside I will be dancing with glee.

:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. I remember
one of my best friends asking me, "If this Plame thing is so important, why are you the only person in North America who cares about it?" When the NYTimes has good stories, I slip a copy in his door, with a small drawing of a clock on the appropriate page.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #77
87. what kind of champagne do you have on ice?
being that today or Friday is the day(s)

:)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. I'll have to get
a bottle. My wife usually has some wine, and my older boy always has Guinness around. I will have a glass of something good.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. your boy has good taste,
so many choices at the store, this bottle will be special, I have been leaning towards the White Star, but I won't know for sure until I am there at the store.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
103. Some people just don't have their priorities straight. Screw 'em.
Edited on Wed May-10-06 07:22 PM by coeur_de_lion
My brother told me the same thing -- said I was the only one paying attention to it and it would all come to nothing. I had to resist the urge to taunt him when Scooter was indicted. This time I won't resist the urge, but I have promised that I will not gloat overmuch.

Maybe I'll restrict myself to sending him a picture of his idol KKKarl as he is frogmarched out of the West Wing.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
74. I appreciate your efforts here.
We`ve heard so much about Rove`s brilliance and masterful political acumen. I`m awaiting a new chapter in his story, one that might shed some sunlight on this criminal mess in the White House.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
78. K/R Thanks H20. You continue to make my day....
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
79. I love your posts, they always make me think
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
83. That would make a great song, "the frog march of may". LOL nt
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
84. Hey fellers,
This thread is linked from the Free Market News Network!! Here it is: http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=12690

I thought my browser was getting flakey when I clicked on "Click Here For The Full Story ", and it brought me right back to DU (where I had just checked a little earlier). Here's how it reads:


HOW HIGH CAN KARL ROVE JUMP?
Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - FreeMarketNews.com

LINKED NEWS ANALYSIS

This morning might be a good time to examine some of the questions about how the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation of the Plame scandal could result in Karl Rove's being indicted. Indeed, the month of May, 2006 could hold the answer to Ambassador Joseph Wilson's question, "Wouldn't it be fun to see Karl Rove frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs?" (The Politics of Truth; page 372) Let's take a closer look at "Official A" and the grand jury. -Democratic Underground


pnorman

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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. ..and once again DU's Best Minds reach the world..
Great Find.
and thanks for this great post H20Man..
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Thanks. I may post that "find" on a separate thread
In the meantime, here's an image I've been using extensively in the past, but it's just PERFECTO for H2OMan's posting. Here it is:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (I just LOVE that Smilie!)

pnorman
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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #90
104. HAAAAAAAAAAAA KKKarl "pissy pants" Rove..
Oh peeing you pants is going to be well received in prison..
good luck you fat phucker!!
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. Very cool indeed - great find n/t
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
95. Check post #64
:evilgrin:


:hi:
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
93. How did I miss this yesterday? I do have a question r.e. Comey.
Edited on Wed May-10-06 02:19 PM by WiseButAngrySara
On a recent thread on a WaPo article about Rove, someone posted the opinion that Fitzgerald was a very good friend of Comey, and Comey was a very good friend of Asscroft (misspelling intentional). The poster speculated that FitzG was simply placed there to 'knock off time' and had no intentions of indicting Rove. The post was made late at night, and by the time I had logged off, there were no comments to his post. Any opinions on this?

:kick: and R'ed and Bookmarked, as I do with all of your wonderful threads! This one is par excellence!


"After Ashcroft recused himself, his deputy James Comey, appointed Patrick Fitzgerald. Thus, there is an interesting relationship between Mr. Fitzgerald's role in the investigation, and Mr. Rove's role in the scandal."

Is the relationship between Comey and FitzG even more interesting?

I'll try to find the post I referred to above, but I think it's vanished.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Here is a really good, imo, article about Comey and where his
loyalties lie. I could find nothing relating to a close friendship between Ashcroft and Comey.

Palace Revolt


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11079547/site/newsweek/

Here is an interesting tidbit from firedoglake as well re Comey:

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005_12_25_firedoglake_archive.html
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #94
101. Thanks Spazito! See H2O Man's reply also: post #98. ....n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. One thing that
you might find interesting is that Fitzgerald is the godfather of one of Jim's children. And Mr. Comey had a good relationship with Mr. Ashcroft. What is upsetting to republicans, however, was finding out that Mr. Comey was also on good terms with Ambassador Wilson. That's why they have freaked out about the "authority" of the special prosecutor. They went so far as to challenge Comey's appointment of Fitzgerald in court.

What I found hilarious was that a right-wing flake convinced a number of people on the left that he was a secret agent on the run -- almost a Dr. Kimble-like figure -- who posted as something like "public ghost." And the person listed a bunch of things that made it sound like Fitzgerald wasn't the real deal. Some people on DU even feel for his shit, and used to ask me about it. By no small coincidence, most of his "talking points" came straight from Team Libby's challenge to Mr. Fitzgerald's authority. Small world!
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Strange bedfellows, huh? This is very interesting. I'm going to stick
with my 'gut' impression of Fitz as having a great deal of integrity and being one who is above politics, but doesn't allow others to be above the law. I so hope he finds Rove guilty, but proving 'intent' is difficult. I think the most damning evidence is Cooper's testimony where he insisted that Rove not only spoke only about Plame, but also stated that it was 'super secret' (can't remember the exact phrase) and that Rove regretted the conversation, implying that he had said too much. Rove forgot about this conversation until the e-mails were produced, coincident to Cooper's testimony. How can FitzG prove that he really didn't forget this, though, and he either committed perjury or OOJ or both!

I wish this were over. Jeffery Toobin (?) on CNN stated that the longer Fitz waits, the better it looks for Rove.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. Ah, Yes
He who drove from town to town posting from libraries and living on the water from his gallon jug and bread.


*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Trying to find
the one-armed man who exposed Valerie.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. Spooky!
*shadow government*
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
96. IMO if Fitz cant get a conviction on this
he aint trying.

Hes got enough evidence to indict Bush, Cheney and Rove on conspiracy charges. If that dont happen hes not really trying. Theres too much evidence out there .
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. I would agree
that Fitzgerald has enough now to convict Libby and Rove. Also, he could get convictions on Wurmser, Hannah, Hadley, Abrams, and a couple others.

The House of Representatives has enough to begin hearings on the role of VP Cheney in twisting evidence in order to bring the nation to war. The republican party would sacrifice Dick now. He can and should be impeached. He is one of the most terrible characters in our nation's history.

I am less sure of if that would lead to Bush in a way that could result in legal charges. It is certainly worthy of consideration.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
102. Thanks, H20 Man...and great post, as always. K&R n/t
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
108. cheering from the sidelines
I rarely am able to post at DU, but I do make time to visit and read everything I can. This is a sterling example of the kind of posts I search for. The kind of posts I can share with other thinking people around me, who are concerned but do not understand my own pre-occupation with this affair. For me, the Plame Scandal encapsulates the crimminality of this administration in all it's glory. There's nothing about this scandal that can be cloaked in good intentions or noble cause. No excuse of incompetence can be used to explain it away. I am convinced the surface has just been scratched regarding the most sinister motives behind it.
Thank-you for keeping me up to date and helping me to speak coherently to others about this. Here's to a month of satisfaction.
P.S. I'd be just as satisfied to see Rove deal if it meant he'd finger Cheney.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
109. Thank you very much Sir!
Your work is very much appreciated, and, though I don't post here very much,
I always follow and look foward to your updates.
I had forgotten about this Fitzgerald quote, which makes me feel like there is still hope for this once great country:

"So I ask everyone involved in this process, anyone who participates in the trial, anyone who covers this trial, anyone sitting home watching these proceedings to follow this process with an American appreciation for our values and our dignity."
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Bruden Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
110. if only we could nail Rove
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
111. All this waiting is getting on my last nerve!
Aarrggh!! :-)
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