Student Suspended For Singing Song About Shooting Teacher

[The Straight Story]

Student Suspended For Singing Song About Shooting Teacher

POSTED: 11:05 am EDT May 9, 2006

SUWANEE, Ga. -- A high school student was suspended for five days after singing a spoof of "On Top of Ol' Smokey" that includes lyrics about shooting a teacher.

Beth Ann Cox, 16, a junior at Peachtree Ridge High School, said she had been humming the song during German class but denied singing loudly or directing the lyrics at her teacher, Phil Carroll.

"I'd had a song stuck in my head all day, like the tune of it," she said. "This kid in front of me asked me about the song. So I told him the words. I didn't say them loudly."

The song includes the lyrics: "On top of Ol' Smokey, all covered with blood, I shot my poor teacher with a .44 slug."

Administrators pulled Cox out of class later Friday and asked why she had threatened her teacher. She was suspended Monday.

http://www.local6.com/news/9182511/detail.html

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. As a teacher

I AM FINE WITH THE PUNISHMENT

[dipsydoodle]

8. Yes

maybe such subject matters shouldn't be joked about. When I was at school we restricted ourselves to subverting tunes like It's Magic - You laugh your teeth fall out. You've got f*ck all to laugh about. Your tragic.

[The Jacobin]

24. As a teacher (home with a sick child)

I THINK THE TEACHER OVERREACTED.

Kids can be punks just to push your buttons. Get over it.

(That being said, it may just be my experience. I teach middle school kids. They like the shock value and any teacher that rises to that kind of sillyness won't last the semester in a middle school.)

--Edit: square brackets = invisibility potion.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. I can't agree until I hear the teacher's side

If the child was singing it in a threatening manner, then it is a problem.

[The Jacobin]

37. You don't know that.

You just jumped in and said you're "FINE WITH THE PUNISHMENT" with the only reported facts are that this was at worst a kid singing it knowing it would bug the teacher.

There is no mention of threat. Since there is none, I think you are a bit premature with being "FINE WITH THE PUNISHMENT.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

42. Yes, that was my first post

and it probably was premature. There is no way of knowing from this version what the teacher says about it. So I modified and said I need to hear what the teacher says.

However, I'll say this. Anytime I have EVER heard my kids singing those songs, they HEAR ABOUT IT from me. And I'm a very lenient, soft-hearted teacher. But shooting in a school is real and I've lived it and it about did me in. No room for jokes. Just like calling somebody the N word "just as a joke." Same thing. I'm on the receiving end of this little joke.

But you know what? On second thought, I AM fine with the punishment because that is a horrid song and has no place in the classroom regardless of the student's demeanor. It is belittling to teachers and it celebrates violence.

I heard one of my kids doing a similar ditty about "towel-heads" and you KNOW I had it out with him about it. What's the difference? Why is it just cute and mischeivious to joke about killing your teacher? I don't understand. I really, really don't.

[The Jacobin]

53. Did you have him suspended?

If you think this is the same as bigotry, fine -- but I ask:

When you hear them call each other "nigga" or use the phrase "towel-heads" did you have those students suspended for five days? Could you even possibly get a single administrator to back you if you tried? No way. The only approprate reaction is handled in the classroom.

This is overreaction in any circumstance. Classifying it as anti-teacher bigotry doesn't change that fact.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Teachers can't have kids suspended!!

Man, if we had that kind of power, they would ALL be spending lots more time at home. LOL

(Just kidding)

Seriously, we can't suspend kids. Principals suspend kids. We usually have little to no say.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. No, I did not attempt to have him suspended

but I called his parents that night. Had it been directed to ME, however, I would have taken him to the office. I still say we are missing a piece of this story. What does the teacher say? Why are we always so ready to think teachers are anal retentive jackboots? Every teacher I know is a liberal Democrat.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Well I do know ONE fundie teacher

but she is young. She'll come around :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

120. I can't suspend anyone

but if I heard a child say "nigger" in my class I would report him to the principal, yes. What he/she would do would be out of my hands. I don't issue suspensions.

[The Jacobin]

140. Late reply

It is my experience that anything more severe than in school suspension (such as being sent home for several days, or sent to alternative school, or having the district police called in to write tickets) is almost completely dependent on the lengths to which the teacher is willing to go to get that done.

That is what I mean by "have the kid suspended." I mean filling out all the paperwork and shepherding and badgering the administration to follow through with it. Without active participation on my part, it won't get done. There is no such thing as "out of my hands."

[IdaBriggs]

94. Let me try to explain why its funny:

Because for 99.999999999% of the population, It Will Not Happen.

Teachers are Authority Figures, and Small Children can ONLY rebel against them in ditty form like this.

Of course students get angry with teachers; teachers can be mean, abusive, and inconsistent, and there is NOTHING a student can do about it. (Sure, complain to your parents, but honestly, mommy and daddy can't protect you from the teacher's wrath when they aren't around.) Plus, they will *MAKE YOU* do things you don't want to do, including homework, tests, and actually (gasp!) paying attention to them when most sane students would pretty much rather be doing just about anything else, especially on a beautiful spring day....

I'm an optimist. I think 99.999999999% of teachers are good decent people, who work hard at their professions, and want to make a positive difference in the lives of their students. As fellow human beings, they are still going to have the occasional bad day, and they will occasionally have "conflicts" with their students (making students learn stuff? the horror! snicker!), the vast majority of which will be resolved in the teacher's favor because students are subject to the authority of adults.

But when any population feels "put down by the man" they will find ways to rebel, and funny songs about meatballs and spaghetti and teachers and guns help alleviate student tensions. Perhaps wikipedia says it best:

Folk music arose, and best survives, in societies not yet affected by mass communication and the commercialization of culture. It normally was shared by the entire community (and its performance not strictly limited to a special class of expert performers), and was transmitted by word of mouth.

This extremely old song has literally been around for probably a hundred years or more. It has a catchy tune, and the words are appealing to in a "rebel against the man" way. The teacher should probably have just "punished" the student for disturbing the class, and left the "drama" of "being threatened" out of it.

That's my opinion, anyway. :)

Now, want to hear a good lawyer joke? :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

121. It will happen for four out of 100 teachers

during their career, according to 2004 statistics.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I agree

And it's not like kids never threaten teachers.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. Glory, glory, hallelujah, Teacher hit me with ruler..

I hid behind the door
with a loaded .44
And the teacher don't teach
no more.

edit: I love teachers! This was the popular one when I was a kid. :blush:

[maveric]

14. I remember that one.

Most of my teachers were somewhat amused by that little jingle.

[Lance_Boyle]

46. I remember "shot her in the butt with a rotten coconut"

We never had the line about the .44 - probably because we hated maths.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

59. That was popular

and so was the jingle this kid got in trouble for. I can't remember anyone ever getting in trouble beyond, "Would you please stop singing that?"

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. As a former teacher

I'm wondering what in the world has happened since I quit. I sang a similar song to the Battle Hymn of the Republic on the last day of school, leading my class in the words. They shared the Old Smokey version and we all laughed about it. These songs have been around since my childhood. I don't think the content of songs were the real reason for the suspension-it is the keyed up fearful atmosphere in which we live now.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Back then nobody ever shot the teacher

or classmates. It was a more innocent time. I have lived through a school shooting. It changed my life.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Baloney.

There have been school shootings since there have been students, teachers, and guns.

These recent shootings being used to justify the appauling suspension of this poor kid is like when people say "everything is different since 9-11" as justification for Iraq.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. Really?

Can you point me to any? I honestly don't remember any before, say, 15 years ago. Maybe 20. I remember none from my childhood. I never knew of a child who beat up a teacher. I started hearing about violence in the classroom in the late '60's.

"this poor kid" Don't you need to hear the teacher's side before you say that?

[Greyhound]

63. Elementary school in early 70's we lost one teacher and three

students to violence in one year. Shit happens, people kill one another, I'm pretty sure none of our song parodies had anything to do with it, nor did the surviving teachers act like the end of the world was coming. We had memorials, we were sad, life went on.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. This happened at school?

[Greyhound]

79. Separate incidents. I was afraid that wasn't clear.

The teacher was killed in the parking lot, never caught the perp, but robbery was the likely motive. One kid killed in an accident on the playground, the other two in an after-hours fight.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. Then it really isn't a valid comparison

Violent incidents happening at school, during the school day, where a kid is supposed to be safe, are in a completely different category.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

119. Are you a teacher?

Just curious.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. Well, there was the Bath School Massacre in 1927.

There was a shooting in 1974.

There was Moritz Schlick, murdered by a student in the 30's for criticizing the nazis.

There was a student that shot a teacher during a riot at the University of Virginia in 1840...

Shall I continue?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

106. Just another day at work....

Annually, over the 5-year period from 1998 to 2002, teachers were the victims of approximately 234,000 total nonfatal crimes at school, including 144,000 thefts and 90,000 violent crimes (rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault).

* Over the 5-year period from 1998 to 2002, senior high school and middle/junior high school teachers were more likely than elementary school teachers to be victims of violent crimes (most of which were simple assaults) (30 and 26 crimes, respectively, vs. 12 crimes per 1,000 teachers).
* Teachers were differentially victimized by violent crimes at school according to where they taught. Over the 5-year period from 1998 to 2002, urban teachers were more likely than rural and suburban teachers to be victims of violent crimes.
* In the 1999-2000 school year, 9 percent of all ele-mentary and secondary school teachers were threatened with injury by a student, and 4 percent were physically attacked by a student.


http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_6/6_4/4_4.asp

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. Proves my point.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

113. And I think it proves mine

because four out of one hundred teachers experiencing physical violence in their classroom makes songs about teacher murder decidedly unfunny.

And the attitude that "shit happens" is one reason why, when asked by student teachers and interns in my classroom what my advice is about teaching as a career I say without smiling: RUN! RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN! You are in a lose-lose situation in a culture that no longer values you.

Who will teach the children? I don't know. Our teacher shortage is severe, but I can't in honesty recommend the profession with this level of antagonism towards teachers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. And one hundred out of one hundred children...

sing creative little song parodies about harm coming to the teacher.

Oh, and I think any teacher who tells student teachers not to join the profession should- 1. not whine about teacher shortages, and 2. take her own advice.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

122. But not in the hearing of the teacher

can you not see the difference? A playground parody is one thing. We don't know the situation here. If the song was sung in a threatening manner, this is a problem. Also, consider the age level. Elementary children are prone to nursery rhymes and little tunes. Middle school students are not. This is why I want to hear the teacher's version. Something doesn't ring right to me about a middle schooler just suddenly singing this song. Also, we all immediately decide the principal is an idiot.

We don't know the details.

You know, I thought this was a forum for folks who valued non-violence. I think I took a wrong turn somewhere. I never realized until today the level of anger so many have barely buried towards educators. Wow.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. The principal is an idiot.

I've no doubt about that.

You know, I thought this was a forum for folks who valued children. I think I took a wrong turn somewhere. I never realized until today the level of anger so many have barely buried towards children. Wow.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

124. I am not whining about teaching

shortages. I just am wondering where teachers will come from. And why do you have to insult me? I have not insulted you. I am an excellent teacher, have been teacher of the year in my school four times. But I wouldn't go into the profession again. And part of that is because it isn't safe.

You must have had a very difficult experience with teachers as a child.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. I was a high school science teacher for 44 years.

And I'll say again, if you're telling student teachers to get out of the business, and you're afraid of your own students, I don't see how you've any business being a teacher.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

132. I cannot in good conscience

advise others to go into this field. I enjoy my work, I am good at it. The fact that I feel the profession has changed enormously for the worse in my years teaching does not in any way negate my effectiveness in the classroom.

I am not afraid of my students. I respect them and they respect me. I would not have this teacher's problem in the classroom, you can bet on it.

You appear to jump to conclusions very quickly for a science teacher.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

110. Yes, continue

and compare your results to the past ten years.

I was in grade school in the 1950's and never heard of school violence. And I lived in the NYC metropolitan area.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. U of T massacre in '64...

school shooting in Cologne also in '64...

bombing in a texas elementary school in '59...

shooting in San Diego school in '79...

shooting in NY high school in '74...

1st century AD Roman graffitti by students expressing interest in beating up their teachers and classmates...

Of course you weren't informed of this in grade school in Texas in the fifties. Do you base everything on what you learned in grade school in Texas in the fifties? Because it sounds like you base everything on what the media tells you about school violence.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

127. My statement was that

I never heard of a school shooting or similar violence in my childhood in the 1950's. Only one of the above is in the 1950's. The rest are all later 20th Century, and two of them since I have begun teaching in 1971 so I consider that "recently."

I have never been to Texas. I grew up in New Jersey, about 20 minutes away from NYC.

Now, let me tell you what I base my opinions of school violence on. I base them on the day I hid in a closet for three hours with 10 fourth graders, three of whom vomitted, two wet their pants, one fainted, and one lost control of his bowels. I hid there because a man with a gun ran through our school, shooting into groups of children, holding the gun against a colleague's head in front of her children, and shot another colleague between the eyes, resulting in his instant death and his falling on a table of first graders. We heard the helicopters, the sirens, the gunshots. None of us have ever been the same.

That is what I base my opinions of school violence on.

[LostinVA]

102. Lots of violence against teachers in the early 1900's

I grew up in a very rural part of NJ, and remember my GGF, and then my grandfather, talking about how in the wintertime some of the farm boys and crabber boys liked to beat up the male teachers, so the school would shut down. They did this year after year. It was almost impossible to get any men to teach, let alone any women. It finally stopped, but not until the little school became part of a larger consolidated tri-township school.

And, the novel "The Blackboard Jungle"is autobiographical.

[Ladyhawk]

13. I agree. I remember these songs. We snickered over them, but

nothing ever became of them.

I went through the arduous process of obtaining a California multiple subjects teaching credential, so yeah, I've taught. I'd have probably laughed with the kids when I heard the song. It's interesting how these songs and jokes actually live in the playground while kids go through and grow up. Who knows how long this one has been around?

This is much ado over nothing.

[IndyOp]

18. It is the atmosphere in our culture at large - but also in classroom.

I have never had to deal with 'behavior problems' in past -- but they are appearing now. I am entirely too afraid to walk into a high school or junior high school classrooms -- they MUST be zoos.

:grr:

[The Jacobin]

33. Reason for the suspension:

I can think of two decent explanations:

(1) The teacher had put up with her crap every day for about thirty three weeks now and this is the perfect excuse for the teacher to finally put the hammer to the student.

(2) It was a meaningless incident that the administration somehow heard about , investigated, and (to the horror of the teacher at the overreaction of zero-tolerance zombies) decided to suspend her - circumstances be damned.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. 3.) The kid was pissed at the teacher and threatened her by

singing.

THAT has actually happened. So it IS a very realistic scenario.

[JuniperLea]

I remember a similar tune

Glory, glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with ruler
Hid behind the door with a loaded .44
That teacher don't teach no more...



I sang it at school many times... I was one of those smart mouthed brats teachers loved to hate, but I was never suspended.

It was harmless in my day to sing such songs. I'm not sure they are appropriate these days, but I think the school administrators in this case overreacted to a basic school yard tune they probably heard themselves.

I would have had a little talk with the young lady and her parents, explained why in these violent times our freedom to sing such ditties has been eclipsed by nutjobs who actually do bring guns to school and shoot teachers/students.

Suspension? Jeez.

[jobycom]

4. Jesus Christ, I'd have never school with some of the wacko laws now

I brought pocket knives to school on accident, I sang that song aloud in class (in the 70s and 80s), I got my first kiss in the high school chemistry lab, I missed over forty days of school in two different years. Today I'd be lucky to not be in jail.

[Systematic Chaos]

6. I carried a 4-inch switchblade quite on purpose in high school.

NEVER took it out of my pocket while on campus though, not ONCE, but with some of the cretins I had to contend with I felt it better to be safe than sorry. If I had to do it all over again, you're damn right I would. That, or I'd quit school and spend 8 hours a day at the public library teaching myself.

[Xithras]

28. Are you kidding? I took a BOMB to school in Jr. High.

Not a real bomb, but an old Dremel case with some very "bomb-looking" Play-Dough, some conventiently placed coiled wires, and a timer in the middle. I made it with a friend, and took it to school because I was giving it to another friend...who was taking it to his house. I made the mistake of showing it to a kid in my class, and the next thing I knew I was sitting in the principals office.

That got me a 5 day suspension in 1988. Today, I'd probably be prosecuted and imprisoned for just as many YEARS. The whole zero tolerance/prosecute everything mentality has gotten WAY out of control in this country. I was punished for what I did, and I never did it again. Lesson learned, no harm done. Prison time would have only destroyed my life.

Heck, I could list off probably a dozen things that would send me to prison today, which were only "suspension" level crimes when I was a kid. M-80's in the toilets? Gluing the locks to our evil teachers classroom? Spitballs? I'm certain that I wasn't my teachers favorite student, but I never did any harm and people back then UNDERSTOOD that. Nowadays teachers and administrators are often too rigid to use their judgement, and just peel the punishments out of a rulebook.

[Selatius]

5. This song has been around for as long as I can remember.

Back in 1991 I was in second grade, and fellow classmates sung a variant of the song:

"On top of Ol' Smokey, all covered with blood, I shot my poor teacher, with an M16 gun, I went to the funeral, everybody threw flowers, I threw a hand grenade, and blew up the grave"

Of course, we were second grade students, not old enough to get pissed and fucked up enough to come to school with guns and homemade bombs on a mission of destruction, and this was before the shootings at Columbine, Paducah, Jonesboro, or Pearl.

Of course, back then the trend was youth suicide. In the 1990s, it became murder-suicide or just murder. Then again, I guess we're the product of our parents' generation.

[sam sarrha]

7. as and Ex-Juvenile Parole officer--

a delinquent Female will give you more grief than 20 boys.. i have to say the most violence i have seen toward people and property was done by delinquent females.. and that violence was Extreme.. way over the top for the situation.. it was simply insanity. rage to kill... over 'bull shit'.

i dont think there should be any slack cut for anyone advocating violence in any way..

once that is understood, it will be easier to locate the totally insane who are out of control.

[atreides1]

17. You're kidding right????

So if you advocate violence in any way, you're insane??? What school of psychiatry did you graduate from doctor?


By your standards there are people here on DU that you would feel totally fine with locking up, or did you mean something else when you said "easier to locate"? I know that some military vets here have advocated violence to take back the country, if it's deemed the only way to do so.

Are they "totally insane" under your definition?

It was a song, nothing more.

As for you being an ex-Juvenile Parole officer, that just makes a case for you being biased.

[sam sarrha]

41. it was a song about killing.. the failed schools are driving kids crazy..

i am not a control freak, but i do feel a need to set limits, such a song can be a very thinly veiled threat.. teachers have to put up with enough bullshit.. without worrying if someone is a nut case singing a threatening song.

you are stretching what i said way toooo far, it isn't just a song.. if you had seen the kind of kids i have dealt with in prison, you might not be so willing to invalidate the fears of others.. it can be one more step in a progression of symptoms.. you dont know if that girl had an anti-social-disorder... i have worked with some really sick puppies, they are out there..

we had a girl attack her mother with a knife, the mother was trapped into a corner trying to flee thru the garage.. there was a baseball bat on the floor, she jabbed at her daughter with it, she didn't back up so she started hitting her with it, this was witnessed by 6 neighbors, she hit her daughter 6 or 8 times in the arms and legs when she advanced with the weapon.. the girl kept coming it too 4 cops to pull the 16 year old off her..after she had been maced. she had made similar threats. it was all over the girl finding out she had been adopted

so you say threats to kill a teacher doesn't put that teacher in danger and doesn't make that teacher feel uncomfortable or fear for their lives, that threats of death to a teacher should be ignored..

why would you wish that sort of work environment on anyone..!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. When I was teaching 3rd grade about 15 years ago,

I had a kid write a 2 page letter explaining HOW he was going to kill me and another teacher. He was angry because he had brought a can of coke to school and we told him he couldn't drink it in class. So he refused to do any work, pulled out his notebook and wrote this death threat. Then he walked up and put it on my desk.

He got suspended for 3 weeks. His dad went nuts, said he was just playing around. The principal wouldn't budge. The kid had been a problem all year (he was a bully and disrupted class all the time) and talking to this father was like talking to a wall. So she finally just sent this kid home for 3 weeks and strongly encouraged the father to get his son some counseling.

Fast forward 10 years. I run into the kid's mom in the grocery store. She tells me he is now almost 19 and in prison for 30 years. Guess what he did?

Paralyzed a guy from the neck down - he shot him, tried to kill him. He was 18.

So yes, we do need to take these violent kids seriously. They aren't always just playing around.

[The Jacobin]

86. For every one of these there are thousands of meaningless threats

That is obviously a well thought out threat that the child was deeply invested in. We had a similar threat against a teacher last year where a kid came at night, smashed his window, stabbed a big knife in the bulletin board and wrote "You're gonna fucking die" underneath it. That is obviously serious.

A kid singing a song in this case is not like that. It is one of the thousands of throw away threats students make every day -- usually under their breath and usually about another student. To make a bigger deal of it than: "Come here. I want to talk to you in the hall" is overreaction.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. There is just too much we don't know about this story

What happened BEFORE this girl sang this song?

Has she ever threatened a teacher before?

Have any other students threatened this particular teacher?



If this girl was indeed just randomly singing this silly song, then yes, suspending her was overkill. But we have no idea what else happened other than she did sing the song. Without more information, it really isn't fair to judge either the school or the student at this point.

[sam sarrha]

139. you just dont get it, You cant just sort them out like that, YOU dont know

what is going on inside their heads.. you are putting the teacher at risk, Kids need to know from DAY ONE.. threats are unacceptable, Totally unacceptable, and will be dealt with quickly and harshly.

Bullying is assault, you push, touch, threaten another child and you will deal with the police, there are no do overs. that is how the real world works.. if a child in public school cant figure that out, there is something wrong and there needs to be an evaluation or investigation.

we had what are called Anti Social Disorder Syndrome, they are bullies devious and manipulating, males make their first sexual assault around age 8, first sexual assault with a weapon around 11 and first rape about 13 or 14. they need to identified early.

we started an alternate high school in Ely, NV, Very Strict discipline, ZERO tolerance to disruption or disorder, within 8 months almost 1/5 of the high school.. about 140.. had deliberately got themselves kicked out of the high school in order to be sent to the alternate school. they said it was safe and there were no interruptions in class, you could learn there.

in the middle 80's a child was undergoing a series of PET scans.. he went to stay with his father in south central LA for less than one month, there he witnessed drive by shootings and people murdered on the street and near the house he was staying.. he was subjected to neighborhood gang terrorism and threats. when he went back to his mothers home and shortly there after he had another PET scan, his brain was discovered to have been physically altered by the experience, later tests showed the alteration was permanent... due to a short exposure to constant 'fight or flight' reactions. bullying is terrorism the negative affects last for ever.. it damages other children for life in one way or another..

i grew up in a gangland environment, i was nearly beaten to death more than once.. under the age of 15.. just walking home form school, and at school. i was very tall and skinny and autistic.

how does one decide 'it meant nothing', the slickest sickest female delinquents were the best charmers, they could explain away.. the wind. again, you are putting the teacher at risk. if a kid doesn't know threats are wrong.. and there are consequences.. they will grow up and beat wives and children.. my X-wife stabbed me twice and bit me so bad i almost lost my arm to gangrene, and she was a really nice person, but when she made a thinly veiled threat...she meant it. she grew up getting away with it.

you are not going to suffer the consequences of being wrong, consequences to the victim or the bully.. everybody loses except you... there are too many variables to get to fuzzy about this situation.

i am not advocating a police state. but boys will be boys isnt an excuse when they are being little criminals.. all the bullies in my highschool were murdered shortly after graduating or getting out of jail the first time. expaining away their bullshit didnt help them any.

[The Jacobin]

141. What do you mean I can't? I do it every freaking schoolday.

Of course I know what is happening inside their heads.

That's why I'm a damn good teacher. I know when they are bored and why. I know when they are angry and generally why. I know when they are excited and why. I know when they are sad and generally why.

By the end of the first several weeks of a school year, I know what is a real threat and what isn't. That's because by then I know my students.

Zero-tolerance is a trap that captures administrators and teachers as well as students and parents.

It sounds to me like you are projecting the (very sincere) pain and violence in your own life onto situations where it often doesn't apply.

[MrModerate]

9. Periodically, we get these stories about crackpot administrators . . .

Having zero sense of proportion. Punishing this child is not going to prevent the next Columbine -- there's no relation whatsoever.

Bad judgment like this should disqualify you from working with children.

[TimeChaser]

11. Never heard that one before,

when I was growing up, it was "Joy to the world, the teacher's dead"

Oh! And the variation of Deck the Halls about burning down the school.

[ghostsofgiants]

26. Deck the halls with kerosene, fa-la-la-la-la, la-la la la

:evilgrin:

[hfojvt]

49. I heard that one about Barney

"I cut off his head
don't worry about the body
I flushed it down the potty
and round and round it goes ..."

Calvin and Hobbes had a several cartoons where Calvin destroyed his school, once in an F-15 firing missiles and once as Stupendous Man using a telescope lens to fry it.

Once he gave a show and tell where he imagined the school being attacked by dinosaurs. Watterson said he got mail about the F-15. He said something like "apparently some people were never kids".

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Same thing happened to a 4th grader in my school

about 10 years ago. He was in trouble, then started singing a rap about how he was going to 'do a drive by' on the teacher and 'blow up her house'.

He got suspended. Can't threaten anyone at school, even if you sing it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. I'd like to hear the teacher's version of this

It's one thing if the child was humming and singing for fun, quite another if she was pissesd at the teacher and singing it in response, or in her face. Not all schools are nice places. Teachers get hurt. An art teacher friend of mine was attacked by an 8th grader and beaten so badly she never taught again. In Tallahassese, Podunk, FL.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. We had a high school teacher blinded

by a student's fist. She was forced into early retirement.

[hfojvt]

65. Tallahassee is in Leon County

population over 200,000. Podunk is in Iowa or upstate New York. I cannot find a real town named Podunk, but Podunk is a place like Faulkton, SD. 809 people and miles away from a major highway or quasi-metro area like Aberdeen (25,000 people and 3rd largest city in SD) or Huron (12,400 people used to be 4th largest, now about 8th). Huron was my hometown and when I went to high school in the 1970s a student was expelled for beating up the shop teacher who was known as "pheasant head" to the kids.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

112. The school where the shooting was

was still in Leon County, but about five mins. from the GA border in the farthest reaches of the school district. It is about 20 miles from the actual town of Tallahassee, but school districts here are by county, and encompass quite a large area.

There are some pockets of affluence here and there, but for the most part this town (with the exception of downtown where the state offices and universities are) is a deep southern town. The county next to us has the highest infant mortality rate in the nation, or did recently. This is a very rural community. When my husband first started teaching here the big excitement was when the pigs got out of the ag building and ran through his classroom. Podunk is appropriate description for many of the outlying schools in the district.

Poor pheasant head!

[IndyOp]

16. As a teacher who FREELY ADMITS her vendettas -

I'd like to say that if you talk through my class, surf the web on your blackberry, or are otherwise disruptive --

I'll have a vendetta AGAINST YOU TOO.

Shape up, pay attention, participate, act like you are in college instead of Jr. High and I fill completely forget my vendetta - I promise.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. LOL

Yes Maam!

[sandnsea]

67. Middle schoolers should act like college students?

Honestly, this thread is what sends parents right over the edge when it comes to backing up teachers on disciplinary matters. Most teachers are reasonable and implement reasonable discipline strategies. Others need to quit, today. When I see teachers disparage parents and their "little darlings", I always wonder what circumstances they're complaining about. Now I see, they can't even handle routine classroom disruptions. My husband did worse than this, in Catholic school, and wasn't suspended.

Middle schoolers ARE NOT college students and if you don't understand the difference, then you shouldn't be teaching.

[IndyOp]

105. I teach at a University - 4 year, Big 10, college-degree granting,

beer-chugging University.

When University students (Freshmen, Sophomores...) behave in ways that I remember junior high schoolers behaving, I am frustrated.

As noted in my post: I have not had problems with 'behavior' in my college classrooms since I got the hang of teaching about a decade ago. I have enjoyed working with mature students who can be fairly easily motivated to participate in class, study hard, and - hopefully - make good grades.

Many of my colleagues in departments across the University are noting these changes - it is not just me. The Dean's Office is busy dealing with classroom disruptions that just did not happen a decade ago.

"Middle schoolers ARE NOT college students and if you don't understand the difference, then you shouldn't be teaching." --> :rofl:

[sandnsea]

115. I misunderstood your post

I thought you meant middle school students should act like college students; not that college students SHOULDN'T act like middle schoolers. I agree that we could strive to create more of an environment of "acadamia" in our k-12 public schools, but there will always be jokesters and it doesn't do any good to set up an antagonistic classroom either.

[silverlib]

19. Gee, I only got grounded for two breaks...

when, in the sixth grade, on February 22nd, I was overheard telling a friend that I wish I was George Washington and my teacher was the cherry tree.

(says a lot about my age - before President's Day)

[Xithras]

21. Lol, I remember that song...

On top of Old Smokey, all covered with blood
I shot my poor teacher, with a .44 slug
I shot her with pleasure, I shot her with pride
I could hardly have missed her, she's 40 feet wide!
I went to her funeral, I went to her grave
I didn't throw flowers, I threw hand grenades!

The song is a joke, and kids have been singing it for more than 20 years. It sounds to me like this poor kid got stuck with an uptight teacher and an a$$#0|e administrator who wanted to make an "example" of someone. If you don't want to be the butt of a joke, don't go into teaching!

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. You don't know that at all

How do you know she wasn't in trouble and sang this song out of anger? You don't know that either.

Why oh why do people judge these stories with only part of the details??

[name not needed]

30. Neither do you.

Why oh why do people add details to shit to prove their own points?

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Well I work in a school, do you?

So yeah, I do know just a bit about these kinds of situations. :eyes:

[Xithras]

34. Who the heck SINGS at a teacher when they're mad?

Especially THAT song? If the student wanted to threaten the teacher, there were a thousand better ways to do it.

A warning would have been sufficient. If the student had refused to stop singing it, the story would be a little different, but nobody is alleging that here. She sang it, the teacher decided it was a threat, and the student was suspended.

[ghostsofgiants]

36. Oh come on, you mean to tell me you've never broken out into song...

While you were pissed off at someone?

[LostinVA]

104. Kinda like on "Cop Rock"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. A dumb kid does that

I have seen it many many times.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

62. Who sings at a teacher when they are mad?

You don't spend a lot of time in the classroom, do you. After 34 years I can tell you that when a child is angry they will often mutter, draw, or sing songs about it rather than come out and risk exposure and punishment. It is a passive aggressive technique and it can also, when it comes from older kids, be a veiled threat. "Hey, I was just singing a little song!"

[Xithras]

75. Just because a song is anti-teacher doesn't make it a threat.

When I was in 5th grade we had a real demon of a teacher* and sung all kinds of songs about how we wanted to see her shot, boiled in oil, stabbed, thrown from the school gym, you name it. We hated her with everything we had, but NONE of the songs were threats. Why not? Because we had no intention of ever doing any of those things to her. It's only a threat if it intimates that violence will follow, or is intended to create the impression that violence will follow. I have an extremely hard time believing that Old Smokey qualifies as threatening violence.

*Before you feel sorry for our old bag of a teacher, you should know that she was beaten by a parent and imprisoned two years after I left her class. Why? Because she had a nasty habit of picking kids up by their ears, and she finally made a kid deaf. His dad came to school and beat the heck out of her (in the classroom, in front of students no less), and she was later sent to jail for a couple years on charges of assaulting a minor. The woman really had no business being in a classroom.

[Xithras]

111. Here's an interesting bit of info for you.

Pulled from an interesting analysis on gender and violence in childrens culture. This particular passage follows a discussion about variants of the exact song we're disussing (which, btw, apparently appeared in the 1970's).

It is necessary to look at these songs from the perspective of the exaggerated, gruesome tradition from which they arise and to acknowledge the way children defuse their resentment of teachers’ control over their lives with humor. They rarely target real, particular teachers so much as an institution of adults who limit their freedom. But while children apparently sing as a way to try out forbidden ideas they would never carry out, testing limits to reassure themselves that they exist, the songs also make fun of adult hypocrisy and sanctimoniousness. Children may be told that racism is wrong, but those who perceive racist attitudes in surrounding adults are more likely to sing subversive songs with racist lyrics. In the same way, the songs reflect cultural ambivalence toward powerful women.

http://www.pcasacas.org/SPC/spcissues/20.3/mccabe.htm

I tend to agree with the authors viewpoint here. The songs are a form of rebellion, not threat.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

117. How can you come to that conclusion

if you do not know the circumstances in which the song was sung? What was the student's demeanor? Body language? Reaction of other students? Had there been a precipitating event?

There is simply too little informtion given in the OP.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. It has happened

You obviously no idea how crazy some of these kids are.

[IdaBriggs]

96. According to the article, she was *HUMMING IT*, then

singing it under her breathe, when one of her classmates asked about it.

ON EDIT:

Beth Ann Cox, 16, a junior at Peachtree Ridge High School, said she had been humming the song during German class but denied singing loudly or directing the lyrics at her teacher, Phil Carroll.

"I'd had a song stuck in my head all day, like the tune of it," she said. "This kid in front of me asked me about the song. So I told him the words. I didn't say them loudly."

Teacher butted into a private conversation (which shouldn't have been taking place in the classroom, to be fair), and then decided to play dumb. I stick to my original comment about this one: Someone Needs To Get A Fricking Grip.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

128. And I stick to mine

this is what the student says. May we hear from the teacher?

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. Yeah and kids ALWAYS tell the truth,

especially when they are in trouble.

"Beth Ann Cox, 16, a junior at Peachtree Ridge High School, said she had been humming . . ."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. Wow. I think you are in the wrong century.

Teaching is some schools at some levels is considered combat duty.

That song is not in the least bit funny. I can handle a joke...about being fat, old-fashioned, mean...

But I have a problem with a song that describes killing me for sport and throwing hand grenades on my grave.

We are supposed to teach kids something. Let's start with appropriate humor.

[Xithras]

39. But it's not your job to decide what is and isn't funny

As a teacher, it's not appropriate for you to be determining what the kids find funny. Unless a joke crosses the line into harassment, presents a racist or threatening viewpoint, or is otherwise violating the law, you really don't have the right to interject yourself into it. In this case, while you may not like the joke, it's not actually a threat...it's meant to be funny. They are your STUDENTS, not your children.

FWIW, I'm a college professor and my wife is a 3rd grade public schoolteacher, so I do have some comprehension of the kind of crap that teachers get to deal with in the classroom. What I don't comprehend is why some teachers feel the need to push their personal morality onto their students. Teachers are there to teach facts and life lessons, not police jokes and ensure that the kids are only thinking thoughts that are "acceptable".

There was no threat, and therefore no cause for action.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. Whoa

back up. You don't think this joke presented a threatening viewpoint? Yes, it is my job to determine what is appropriate humor in my classroom. It absolutely IS my job. I can't get in their heads, and God knows I don't want to, but if they sing something inappropriate in my room you better believe it is my job.

This is a song that glorifies killing your teacher! And you say it is a funny joke? And I should not comment upon it when I hear it in my classroom because I AM SUPPOSED TO TEACH FUCKING FACTS!? If that is your belief about what goes on in a classroom, then you deserve no child left behind.

This is NOT personal morality issues. This is about violence. What if it were aimed towards blacks? Towards gays? Then it is hate speech? Teacher don't count?

I give up. Somebody stop me before I hit something.

Grannie...rocking hard.

[incapsulated]

60. Grannie...

I understand your viewpoint, but you also need to remember what it was like to be a kid stuck in school.

This song, and variants of it, has been around for decades. Every kid has resentment toward teachers and other authority figures, it is a natural expression of rebellion and independence. And as with many things kids do out of rebellion, it's over the top, deliberately gross and not something most adults would find "funny". Kids don't think: OMG, what about Columbine? I'm sure there are no end of sick jokes that kids make about that event, that's what kids do, that is how they "cope". But it does not mean they are a real threat. Not at all. That is why adults have to use our powers of objectivity and perspective about these things or we would view them all as potential psychopaths. They aren't adults and we can't judge them, or their humor, by adult standards.

[Xithras]

68. The RESPONSE is what is inappropriate.

What would have been so wrong with "Kiddo, I don't like that song. Please don't sing it in my classroom." If the kid had refused, we'd be talking about a defiance issue and punishment would have been more appropriate. But no, it is NOT your job to punish kids because you don't like their sense of humor.

As a teacher, you have the right to determine what is an isn't said in your classroom. You do NOT have the right to PUNISH children because they espouse a viewpoint you disagree with or tell a joke you don't care for. A good teacher would use the bad joke as an opportunity to discuss the ethics of telling jokes that might intimidate people. A teacher in a hurry could just tell the student to shut up and keep that kind of talk out of their classroom. Under no circumstance is it appropriate for a student to be punished simply because their joke offends the sensibilities of the teacher (excepting, of course, speech that violates school and government anti-discrimination policies). There was no threat in the song, so no reason for punishment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. And how do you know the kid wasn't asked to stop

singing and refused?

[Xithras]

76. Because nobody has said so.

If she had refused, they could have suspended her for being unruly in the classroom and for not following her teachers requests. That would have been an acceptable resolution and I would have had no problem with it. They didn't suspend her for that...they suspended her for making "threats" after she sang a 30 year old schoolyard ditty. The school could have avoided any negative impressions by punishing her for her BEHAVIOR, but instead decided to punish her for her SPEECH. That crosses the line and is unacceptable in a free society.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. N. E. I.

If you really are a teacher, you should recognize that acronym.

Not
Enough
Information

Yet, you condemn the teacher????

[Xithras]

88. I condemn the situation as described.

If the situation happened as the article describes it, then yes, I condemn the teacher. If there are details missing that are important to the understanding of what really happened, I cannot be faulted simply because they aren't published here. I'm simply saying that, as the article describes it, the suspension of this girl was inappropriate and that the teacher and administrators were out of line.

[incapsulated]

77. Really, now...

If she did I imagine that was the beginning of her troubles.

When I was a teenager I listened to, and sang, music that was filled with violent imagery. I hated school and despised certain teachers that made my life a living hell at times.

I grew up to be a peace-loving, liberal vegetarian. I guess I should have been quarantined for observation at the time, instead.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Did you ever threaten a teacher?

[incapsulated]

82. If singing a stupid song is a "threat"

Probably.

Honestly, do you think kids that attack teachers, for real, announce it with a song?

[The Jacobin]

92. Of course not.

There is little invested in such a threat. Those threats I handle with a conversation in the hall about appropriate behavior in the classroom and just treat it as any other disruption.

I only see a "threat" as a THREAT when there is a lot invested in it. Things like thought-out plans, threats in the form of long letters, graffiti, or a history (no matter how short) of violence against authority (parents, adults, teachers, cops).

[incapsulated]

97. I agree.

If every kid that sang the old "hate the teacher" song was really plotting their destruction, there wouldn't be a teacher left alive.

This kid doesn't seem to have done anything other than sing this song to be labeled a threat by some here. They know nothing about her or her history. All I know is what I read in that article. She was asked to be part of the student leadership team, it seems. Wow. Better watch that one... closely.

I wonder how they would react if the Government read their posts on DU using such standards. We would all be on a one way trip to Gitmo.

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. It HAS happened.

I posted about one such incident

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1140564&mesg_id=1140772

[incapsulated]

147. *What* "happened"?

Did the fourth grader actually drive by the teacher's house and "blow it up"?

WTF?

According to this kid, and hers is the only version we have, she wasn't singing some threat AT the teacher, she was whispering the lyircs to a fellow student. Not custom made lyrics just created to frighten and/or threaten the teacher, either, but 100-year old lyrics that have been sung by kids for, well, 100 years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. So he has to actually carry out the threat for it to be

credible? LOL That sure makes me (and I will bet all other teachers) feel safe. - NOT

FYI, this particular kid ended up in jail by the time he was 15. So he obviously wasn't just horsing around.

[Xithras]

89. Just curious: What's your definition of threaten?

Is it a threat if it simply makes a teacher uncomfortable?

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. LOL Some kids try to make us uncomfortable every day

[TallahasseeGrannie]

134. Once again

we have only heard the student's point of view.

I do not punish children for espousing viewpoints different from mine. I am an art teacher in a school for ESE students. I wouldn't last long in my field if I did that. I have heard things from my kids in confidence that would curl your toes.

Hate speech is specifically against written (and posted in my classroom) school board rules. A song that celebrates killing someone and throwing grenades on their grave constitutes hate speech in my opinion. Again, had the victim in the song been a gay man, a minority, there would be no question. The consensus in this thread appears to be "everybody hates teachers anyway" so no harm done. In addition, many have said that these songs have been around for a hundred years. Well, so has lynching. It's a grand old tradition. I thought progressive meant progress, putting aside the old ways. It is difficult for me to understand winking and grinning about this type of thing.

I have no opinion as to whether the administrator over-reacted because I don't know the whole story. We on DU are often very ready to jump all over any person in perceived authority without stopping to consider all the sides.

And yes, I have heard this song for years. And every single time I have heard it, I have put a stop to it. They can sing it someplace else, but I won't have it in my classroom.

[incapsulated]

35. Never heard it.

But if I was a KID in SCHOOL, I imagine I would find it funny, too.

Perspective, people.

[theboss]

22. My dad's been a principal for 30 years

We talk about this stuff all the time. In the 70s, he probably would have smacked the kid, told him to behave himself, sent him back to class, and chuckled about it.

Today, he would have to call in the psychiastrist and the school attorney.

It's a different era and everyone is afraid of any kind of threat, mainly because of the law suits that would follow.

[Freddie Stubbs]

Everything changed with Columbine

me and my buddies wouldn't have gotten away with half of the stuff that we did in this day and age.

[Xithras]

45. Fear is the tool of the fascists.

Violence in school is nothing new. What's new is how we react to it...we brand kids who rebel against the system as suspect, subject them to psychological examinations, turn them into social pariahs, and then react with dismay when they rebel even harder and hurt people. We live in an age where kids lives are destroyed over off-color jokes, games of hangman, and edgy poetry. When a simple angry LOOK can get a kid expelled because a teacher feels "threatened", you know something is fundamentally broken in the system.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. The brat would make a fine negotiator for Bush.

Not so subtle threats followed by lengthy explanations and more threats.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. Yes, she has a real skill!

[hfojvt]

38. I was going to mention that very song

My brother used to sing it in grade school back in 1975.

[IdaBriggs]

43. These people need to get a fricking grip. Its a *FOLK SONG* --

It and variations of it have been around FOR DECADES.

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

50. You can think of no context

in which that song would be threatening to the teacher? No tone of voice that would make it shocking? No history of activities by the student that should rightfully give the teacher pause?

As I say below, we know nothing about the context in which the song was sung. There are myriad scenarios for either side.

[IdaBriggs]

84. "HOW DO YOU DO? MY NAME IS SUE -- NOW YOU GONNA DIE!"

Feel threatened? Johnny Cash sang "A Boy Named Sue" in front of MILLIONS of people, and he was neither arrested for it, nor deemed to be "threatening" people.

And he owned guns.

Again, this is a "get a grip" moment. This (the teacher version of "Old Smoky" IS A FOLK SONG.

If a person wants to be "threatening" they can do it with an "evil look" -- and if you have a sixteen year old "threatening" a grown-up with a rendition of AN OLD FOLK SONG, then you have a teacher who needs either a) to be trained better, or b) to be getting a new job in a school where FOLK SONGS aren't threatening.

Now, if you tell me the girl was waving a gun, cackling with manic glee, and capering about like a mad woman while reciting it in a breathy Freddy Krueger fashion, maybe I'll take it seriously. Otherwise, I repeat: Someone Needs To Get A Fricking Grip.

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

90. You are a teacher

Kid hates you. Makes that quite clear through various means during the course of the year. Then, comes up to you and very quietly sings "How do you do? My name is Sue--Now you gonna die!" Different scenario.

We have no clue what happened. But lets not just jump on the bandwagon that the teacher is the one that needs to get a grip. Plenty of asshole kids out there that would be "smart enough" to figure out that they could sing this little "folk song" in a threatening way and then, when confronted, just say "Oh, I was just singing a song from when we were kids. Is that wrong?"

Maybe you need to get that teaching license and come into the high school classroom so you can show us all how it is done.

[IdaBriggs]

100. Did you read the article?

Beth Ann Cox, 16, a junior at Peachtree Ridge High School, said she had been humming the song during German class but denied singing loudly or directing the lyrics at her teacher, Phil Carroll.

"I'd had a song stuck in my head all day, like the tune of it," she said. "This kid in front of me asked me about the song. So I told him the words. I didn't say them loudly."

Now, who are you going to believe -- a psychotic student who sings folk songs, or the innocent teacher who is apparently so hated by the children in his class that he literally fears for his life?

I'm in the "use some common sense" camp, and if the teacher *really* fears for his life, then he doesn't belong in the classroom.

And no thanks on the job offer -- I'm just going to keep being one of those "crazy" tax paying folks (you know -- the ones paying the teachers' salaries?) who insists a) children behave with respect in the classroom, and b) teachers actually act like folks WORTHY of respect.

In this case everyone seems to agree that the teacher and student had an ongoing interpersonal conflict. Too bad the kid didn't have the freedom to get transferred into another class when the problem first started. :)

[Goblinmonger]

136. If that is exactly what happened

and there is nothing more to the story, I will be firmly on the side of the student. But, of course, students never lie. Especially to their parents and the media.

My whole point, the whole time, is that we do not know what happened. Maybe this teacher should quit. I know many in my building that hate kids and should quit. I am NOT saying that all teachers are fabulous. Maybe this guy is one of the shitty ones. I don't know. That's really the point. I DON'T KNOW.

If your a) always happened, it would be a fabulous world. I do b) myself. There are shitty ones. I give you that.

[The Jacobin]

108. Since we are into pure speculation, now...

"Kid hates you. Makes that quite clear through various means during the course of the year."

We are now venturing into pure speculation, but going with your scenario:

There were many points throughout the year to stop this then. You imply you are a teacher as I am, so you should have developed a plan of action for just such students that are daily or weekly minor pains in the ass. Your discipline plan should have taken care of this long before it escalated to this point.

It is my experience that when using such a plan, children who want to escalate to plausible threats of violence do so relatively quickly -- within a few months. If this dragged out all year then either (1) its not serious; or (2) the teacher didn't make the discipline process clear and enforce it at EVERY step of the way.

[Goblinmonger]

137. My scenario

was in response to Ida's post that made it sound like the whole incident was a damn Johnny Cash concert :P

What do you teach?

I, as a teacher, very rarely send kids to the office. I deal with it in the classroom. But we have no idea that this dragged out all year long. Maybe this is just one trimester of a block schedule (in which case they may have just started in some states). Who knows. I could speculate all day long about how the discipline plan could not have prevented this. Maybe the teacher just failed the kid on a test for cheating. The kid was pissed about being caught and sang her little death threat. Who know. That has been my point all along. NOBODY KNOWS. I just find it frustrating that everyone just assumes the teacher is incompetent and it is all his fault.

[Goblinmonger]

44. We really know nothing

as a high school teacher, I could come up with a dozen scenarios for each side of this story.

But, what if this same student were singing a song about killing herself? Should the teacher just blow it off as kids being kids? What about if it were about killing other students? Blow it off? It is easy in hindsight to say the teacher overreacted, but, trust me, it ain't that easy.

[Xithras]

61. In every one of those scenarios...

...the appropriate response would be to TALK to the student. Whatever happened to the concept of asking a student to stay after class and having a conversation with them when something worrying comes up?

I teach a logic class. Two semesters ago I had a strong student experience a grade drop, and shortly afterward he faultlessly described why we should all kill ourselves because logic dictates that life is rather pointless. This set off a few red flags, so I held him after class and TALKED to him.

The grade drop? His fiancee had delivered their child mid-semester, and he wasn't sleeping well. The "suicidal" discussion? He pulled two Nietzsche titles from his backpack...he was reading them for another class, and thought the nihilistic tie-in worked for the discussion. When I made it clear to him WHY I had been concerned, he laughed and offered to avoid the subject in the future.

I had two choices. My choice resolved the situation with a five minute discussion. The other alternative would have removed him from school pending a psychological evaluation. I work with MANY people who would have simply used the second alternative without a thought of the damage that it does to students. As teachers, we should be intelligent enough to use our minds, gather the facts of a situation, and reasonably determine what is and is not a threat, and what is and is not a risk.

[Goblinmonger]

73. You are teaching adults

I, and the person in the OP, are not. WE are mandatory reporters. YOU are not. Sure, I would talk to the kid. Are you doing OK? Why the suicide talk (though approached more subtly)? The kid says "Nothing's wrong. Just singing." Do I let it drop then? Kid tries to kill themself because I did nothing.

I'm just saying that it isn't that easy when you are not dealing with adults. Sure I talk to kids. But often that isn't enough even if they give all the "right" answers. In the case of the "I'll shoot you" song, if the teacher felt threatened by the kid is she supposed to talk to the kid about why the kid wants to kill them? That seems silly. One of my colleagues received a poem from a student for an assignment. This student was significantly pissed at the teacher for not letting the student do a topic for a speech. The poem was clearly not the work of the student. He googled the first line and it was a poem that was read to people in England before they executed them. Should the teacher talk to that kid? Blow it off? Ha, ha, ha, look how smart Johnny is to google a death poem.

[Xithras]

83. I teach 17 and 18 year olds mostly.

Trust me, there really aren't that many differences between them and high schoolers.

You, a both an adult and a teacher, have both the power and the intelligence to approach the situation appropriately. The kid says he's just singing? Ask him why he chose that song. Not satisfied with the answer? Call his parents. Getting the kid packed off to an institution for a week of intensive mental evaluations is totally uncalled for, and simply generates resentment and social problems for them.

What did you colleague do to the kid? I'd have given him an F and referred him for punishment because of the plagarism. Am I going to be threatened because some dipshit kid has a sick sense of humor? No. I'd talk to him, ask him what he was thinking when he chose that poem, and choose my next course of action from there.

[Goblinmonger]

95. I've taught college, too.

So I call his parents. The parents either don't respond or tell me to get a grip. Now what?

Look, I have no idea what happened in this scenario. None of us do. But I do know that there are many instances where what happened is justified. High school teachers have to put up with a lot of shit. Maybe this was the last straw for this teacher.

My colleague referred the kid to the administration. Kid got a suspension.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. You don't know that the teacher didn't talk to the kid

[Xithras]

85. I think....

That if the teacher had talked to the kid, and the kid had refused to stop, it would have been highly relevant to the story. Someone probably would have brought it up.


And as I have already said: If the teacher asked the kid to stop and the kid DID NOT, then the suspension was JUSTIFIED. My objection to this story is only based on the way it's being portrayed here. If one of my students refused to shut up in my classroom after I'd asked them to, I wouldn't hesitate to eject them. It's not about speech at that point, it's about the student disrupting the teaching environment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. Go back and read the article

Which "someone" would have brought this up? The student? Her parent?

I don't see where the teacher gave her opinion.

[Greyhound]

56. Fer dog's sake we sang the (nearly) same song when I was a lad

and had to fight off the pterodactyls on the way to school. There was no .44 slug, in our version we found our poor teacher all covered in blood, a knife in his stomach, an axe in his head...

Our eyes had also seen the glory of the burning of the school, we had trampled all the teachers, we had broken all the rules, we were marching down the hall to kill the principal, our troop is marching on...

We are pathetic. :evilfrown:

[bunkerbuster1]

87. This is pretty nasty stuff from a nasty, vindictive Board of Ed.

The suspension is only half of the punishment, folks

I know this particular Board of Ed; they are rat-fuckers a la Karl Rove.

It's not just the suspension. That's not such a huge deal; I actually think, from what I've learned, it was probably justifiable.

What's really over-the-top here is the Board of Ed revoking an existing transfer agreement, i.e., telling the parent that her child will have to attend another high school next year. from the AJC's report, at:

http://www.ajc.com/gwinnett/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/0509gwxstudent.html

In addition to the five days suspension, the school revoked the transfer agreement that allowed Beth Anne to attend the school. Next year she will be required to attend North Gwinnett High, her neighborhood school, said Suzanne Cox, the girl's mother.

BTW, the person quoted is not the "spokeswoman for the school district" as the AP story sloppily attributes, but rather for the County's board of Ed.

This is classic petty-ass vindictiveness from Gwinnett County, and it has the noted retard J. Alvin Wilbanks' paw prints all over it.

[incapsulated]

91. She has to transfer to another school??

This is truly insane.

And, btw, this kid was asked to be on the student leadership team.

Sounds like they got rid of a real psycho in the making, eh?

Jesus.

[Goblinmonger]

98. Right

because there are never any psychos in leadership positions, right? All the psychos in the world look like the charicature of a psycho.

So if the story were exactly the same, but the kid was a D student with multiple piercings, goth makeup, and satanic tatoos, you would be fine with it?

We know NOTHING about this story other than a short tidbit. Why is everyone so quick to jump on the bandwagon that the teacher is the nutjob here?

[incapsulated]

99. Hey, I was that D student who listened to "dangerous music"

That is why I'm defending this kid.

If singing an old folk song, one that has been sung by kids in school for decades, makes her a threat, I should have been taken away long ago.

[bunkerbuster1]

130. She was attending a HS out of her assigned district.

You have to bow and scrape to the Gwinnett Board of Ed and hope you've answered all the answers in their questionnaires just so and cross your fingers and hope they'll grant a request to allow you to attend a school outside of your assigned district. Of course they hold all the cards with these transfers.

Now that this girl has misbehaved, she's being punished not just with the suspension, but she has to attend another HS next year.

SOP for these vindictive shits.

[BlooInBloo]

93. Um, good. Am I missing something?

[baby_mouse]

103. In the light of Columbine, I'm not tremendously surprised.

... and, er, somewhat aghast.

[Sequoia]

107. Hey, I posted the same thing this morning.

[Vidar]

114. "...hit her in the seater with a 45 repeater & the teacher was seen

no more" Fifty years old.

[ulysses]

125. yeah, I sang the songs too.

Yeah, some teachers overreact to some things. Without context, though, we don't know.

I've had kids threaten me. Last week, one of ours told my parapro that he was going to "slice your motherfucking throat". We wrote it up. Kid gets to deal with the police, albeit in a relatively minor way. (My para didn't press charges, but they still had to report it to the school detective.) Teaching may be as much art as science and involves knowing when to take something seriously - neither of us thought this kid was going to try to follow through on the threat - but a lot of our kids have some serious anger issues and I'm not trying to get myself killed at work.

An overreaction? Possibly. Possibly not. Try joking about a bomb in an airport.

[incapsulated]

129. See, *that* was a threat

In any circumstance. This, I can't buy unless this kid had a history of threatening teachers in a serious way and I kind of think they would have mentioned it if she had. Even if she did, a song's lyrics whispered to another student isn't the same thing as saying it to a teacher's face, anyway. (Since that is her story, it's all I have to go on.) And it sure as hell isn't "I'm going to slice your motherfucking throat", which is how I would imagine a truly serious threat would start, not by singing an old folk song.

[ulysses]

131. context matters.

That's what we don't know.

[Yollam]

133. The suspension is appropriate.

However, if the child says it was "just a joke" and has no history of violence, it should not be treated as a threat.

But the disrespect in that song alone is cause enough for suspension. Totally inappropriate and unfunny.

I'm not that old, and in my day, I never heard anybody joking about KILLING teachers or anyone else. We many have fantasized about pulling dumb pranks, but that was about it. Somebody from my High School stole the Ronald McDonald figure from the local Mickey D's and put it in front of the school, which prompted a big manhunt for the culprits. That's about the biggest incident that went down at my school, aside from a few fistfights. There was never a stabbing or shooting, and I graduated in 1987. The callous attitude kids have towards violence today is kinda scary to me.

[Generic Other]

145. In the 60's we used to sing these kinds of songs all the time

I graduated way before your day, kiddo.
I remember singing this one at Girl Scout Camp:


Glory glory hallelujah
teacher hit me with a ruler
Met her by the door
with a loaded 44
and I don't have a teacher no more...

Of course, the big difference was that no student had ever shot a teacher, so the song was considered silly.

[Hippo_Tron]

138. Am I crazy or is this a reason that 15-17 year olds should be able to vote

Imagine high school students actually getting to participate in the election of their school board. Bet you would see any of this crap happen.

[eridani]

146. Remember "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory"

Popular in the mid-50s, and nobody ever got arrested for it.

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
We have tortured every teacher and broken every rule
We have placed a stick of dynamite in every single room, etc.

Probably more verses that I don't remember. Is is different now because kids have more access to firepower, or what?

[incapsulated]

148. That one, I remember, heh

I think they were perfectly capable of placing sticks of dynamite in rooms then, too.

Maybe we should just outlaw teenage rebellion. Put them all on meds from day one.

AND NO SINGING!!