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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 11:46 AM
Original message
Awhile back someone posted about Depleted Uranium and it's
health issues. At the time my research showed the biggest danger was from heavy metal poisoning and that radiation was low enough to barely register above background.

Since then I've found some disturbing information. One from the UN inspection of Eastern European sites and this letter to Congress: http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Leuren-Moret-Gen-Groves21feb03.htm

The UN report indicates that there is little danger from the spent projectiles unless one were to be carried in a pocket for a week which would subject the immediate area to excess gamma and beta radiation. The letter from Leuren-Moret indicates that micro particles breathed in will penetrate the lung/blood barrier and be stored in all organs and bones. This very close proximity over time would greatly exaggerate the effects of tiny amounts of beta and gamma radiation.

So, it isn't a case of how much radiation but of proximity over time.

This stuff makes Agent Orange look like a vitamin supplement.
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ridgerunner Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here's some more reading
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. DU is slow motion genocide, plain and simple
And the population of Iraq will be dying from it for decades to come. As will each and every soldier who was exposed.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Yes. This is what makes Bush/Hitler comparisons...
totally wrong. Bush's killing will dwarf the holocaust.
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. another link.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. There were several threads on this recently...all with horrifying info.
Edited on Thu Jan-12-06 12:25 PM by BrklynLiberal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2355860

additional sources of info
http://www.iacenter.org/poison-dust.htm
A NEW LOOK AT U.S. RADIOACTIVE WEAPONS
During the current Iraq War the U.S. use of radioactive DU weapons increased from 375 tons used in 1991 to 2200 tons. Geiger counter readings at sites in downtown Baghdad record radiation levels 1,000 and 2,000 times higher than background radiation. The Pentagon has bombed, occupied, tortured and contaminated Iraq. Millions of Iraqis are affected. Over one million U.S. soldiers have rotated into Iraq. Today, half of the 697,000 U.S. Gulf War troops from the 1991 war have reported serious medical problems and a significant increase in birth defects among their newborn children.

The effects on the Iraqi population are far greater. Many other countries and U.S. communities near DU weapons plants, testing facilities, bases and arsenals have also been exposed to this radioactive material which has a half-life of 4.4 billions years


more links..
http://www.ccnr.org/du_hague.html

http://traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium_iraq.html

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2004/08/15_bollyn_depleted-uranium-blamed-cancer.htm

http://www.ngwrc.org/?Page=Topic&rsWebTopicID=8

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248

http://www.cadu.org.uk/info/iraq/7_1.htm



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TreeMonkey Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That information is false!
Edited on Thu Jan-12-06 12:27 PM by TreeMonkey
You have to remember that there were 10's of THOUSEANDS of these shells used, and they contaminate the ground for years to come. I dont know the specifics, but as the Military 'must' have them, they of course downplay the nastiness. The problem is that the radioactivity/uranium is not contained in the shell, but dispersed when they explode into the air/ ground /water/vegitation.

So 20,000 exploded shells x even a little bit of radioactivity means that you have contaminated alot of ground area. This stuff is NASTY! It should be banned.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. welcome to DU TreeMonkey!
:hi:
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. Hi TreeMonkey!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Inhaled uranium can remain in the lungs and bones for years
From the "facts and fictions" section on the web site of the Uranium Medical Research Centre. UMRC was started by Dr. Asaf Durakovic former head of Nuclear Medicine at a VA medical facility in Wilmington, Delaware (he was fired for refusing to stop investigating the health effects of depleted uranium on GW1 veterans).


Fiction: Alpha particles can't penetrate clothes and skin.

Fact: This statement ignores the most prevalent and dangerous pathway for uranium to get into the human body. Inhaled uranium can remain in the lungs and bones for years where it continues to emit alpha, beta and gamma radiation. Each alpha particle can traverse up to several hundred cells causing somatic and genetic alterations. Multiply this by billions of such particles and a huge amount of cellular damage becomes possible. The majority (50-70%) of the airborne DU particles sampled during the testing of 105 mm DU projectiles were in the respirable range and capable of reaching the non-ciliated bronchial tree. Studies also indicate that the half-time in the lungs is up to 5 years.

Soluble DU compounds have rapid access to the bloodstream with consequent toxic effects on the target organs and the bone where it is incorporated. Mass spectrometry results of deceased Canadian veteran, Captain Terry Riordon, confirmed that depleted uranium was present in his bone. From there it can compromise the immune system and affect the stem cells that travel throughout the body thereby affecting many other organs. Soldiers inside a tank or armoured vehicle can inhale tens of milligrams of DU after the shell goes through the tank. Compare this to the maximum allowable yearly dose in the U.S. for inhaled uranium is 1.2 milligrams per year.

http://www.umrc.net/facts_and_fictions.aspx



Dr. Durakovic served as Chief of Professional Clinical Services of the 531 Medical Detachment during the Desert Shield phase of the Gulf War. When he returned to the Veteran's Administration (VA) Nuclear Medicine facility in Wilmington, Delaware, which he headed, he was asked to assess 24 soldiers of the 144th Transportation and Supply Company of New Jersey for evidence of DU in their bodies. He recalls: "They had been based in Saudi Arabia from January to August 1991, working with damaged tanks hit by DU armour-piercing shells from 'friendly fire.'" Durakovic's team performed a whole-body count of uranium 238 on the troops and found that 14 of the 24 had been contaminated. According to Durakovic's June 26, 1997, testimony before the Subcommittee on Human Resources of the House Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, the government 'lost' all records of these examinations. And shortly thereafter, Durakovic 'lost' his job.

Durakovic may have been forced to step down from his VA position at Wilmington, but the army could not strip him of his ethics as a medical doctor. In the interests of his patients he founded the Uranium Medical Research Center, an independent non-profit institute which studies the effects of uranium contamination and challenges Pentagon claims that "exposures to depleted uranium have not to date produced any observable adverse health effects attributable to DU's chemical toxicity or low-level radiation." Dr. Durakovic explains that when depleted uranium is blown up at high temperatures, it changes to tiny particles. If inhaled, the uranium particles can get into the bloodstream and can be lodged in the bone, lymph nodes, lungs or kidneys causing damage by emitting low-level radiation in the body over a long period of time. The price can be cancer, necrosis and genetic deformity. Inexplicable, then, the Pentagon's refusal to comply with a 1993 congressional mandate to study the health effects of inhaled and ingested depleted uranium dust.

Or does the answer lie close at hand? According to Dr. Durakovic there are two main reasons for the Pentagon's DU-paranoia - and they both involve money: compensation for those suffering from DU-contamination, and the exorbitant costs of battle theatre clean up. But money seems a petty concern when we are talking about changes to the human gene pool. "Deformities among children born to Gulf War vets are well-documented as is the rising incidence of birth malformations in Iraq," Dr Durakovic points out. "What will happen in future generations? I have seen the effects of radiation worldwide. The consequences of DU are immeasurable."

http://www.nuclear-free.com/english/durakovic.htm
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. This Depleted Uranium will have very long term effects in the Middle
East and Northern Africa. It's even possible, IMO, the dust could be transported via the western air currents to the Caribbean, Central and North America.

As for the long term biological effects of low level alpha radiation, if this stuff gets in the lungs or is somehow ingested as part of food, then we can expect incidents of lung cancer, leukemia and even birth defects with infants to increase dramatically.

DU is really nasty stuff. It is perfect for penetrating armour due to it's mass, but I don't think the designers of these projectiles, and those making decisions on using DU, gave one bit of thought on the ramifications of DU after the war. Thus all those in the decision to use DU are guilty of reckless disregard on what could happen with what they decide to do.

It reminds me of Carthage, when defeated by Rome, Carthage and its surrounding country side was plowed with salt. This effectively destroyed the land's ability to produce food. Thus Carthage was forever destroyed as far as supporting food production and a civilization. Not only have the Iraqi civilians been killed with bombs and bullets, for billions of years into the future, their land will become low level radioactive poison, in a way like Carthage's land was poisoned with salt. If the dust spreads to North America, we can expect similar effects here. And there is no way rid the environment of DU. We're stuck with this stuff now.

Using DU projectiles is a crime against humanity, or it should be.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Check out this NASA web site

It shows how prevailing Winds from the Middle East blow atmospheric dust Westwards to North Africa and from there across the Atlantic to the Caribbean, and Central and North America.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast26jun_1.htm



Horror of US Depleted Uranium in Iraq Threatons World
by James Denver

"I'm horrified. The people out there - the Iraqis, the media and the troops - risk the most appalling ill health. And the radiation from depleted uranium can travel literally anywhere. It's going to destroy the lives of thousands of children, all over the world. We all know how far radiation can travel. Radiation from Chernobyl reached Wales and in Britain you sometimes get red dust from the Sahara on your car."

The speaker is not some alarmist doomsayer. He is Dr. Chris Busby, the British radiation expert, Fellow of the University of Liverpool in the Faculty of Medicine and UK representative on the European Committee on Radiation Risk, talking about the best-kept secret of this war: the fact that by illegally using hundreds of tons of depleted uranium (DU) against Iraq, Britain and America have gravely endangered not only the Iraqis but the whole world.

For these weapons have released deadly, carcinogenic and mutagenic, radioactive particles in such abundance that-whipped up by sandstorms and carried on trade winds - there is no corner of the globe they cannot penetrate-including Britain. For the wind has no boundaries and time is on their side: the radioactivity persists for over 4,500,000,000 years and can cause cancer, leukemia, brain damage, kidney failure, and extreme birth defects - killing millions of every age for centuries to come. A crime against humanity which may, in the eyes of historians, rank with the worst atrocities of all time.

These weapons have released deadly, carcinogenic and mutagenic, radioactive particles in such abundance that there is no corner of the globe they cannot penetrate - including Britain. Yet, officially, no crime has been committed. For this story is a dirty story in which the facts have been concealed from those who needed them most. It is also a story we need to know if the people of Iraq are to get the medical care they desperately need, and if our troops, returning from Iraq, are not to suffer as terribly as the veterans of other conflicts in which depleted uranium was used.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_17574.shtml



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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. See how the air flows across North Africa to the Atlantic, and on to the
Americas.

All this red dirt in Georgia comes from the Sahara in Africa, transplanted by the wind over millions of years.

Most people don't have a clue about the seriousness of what these yoyo's have done. Eventually, we can expect birth defects (mutations in sex cells) to start showing-up here. By then though, it will will be spun as the 'will of God' to explain what has happened. I wonder if the future mothers will understand, or the cries of the children will be understood, and it will be known who caused this? Or will people just blame it on God?

The news media is managing to keep a lid on what has happened due to Gulf War I. These assholes in the news media that are covering for these people, well I think the 'talking heads' are equally to blame. Fucking empty headed pricks interested in their own profit, all of them.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Ike wasn't just blowing hot air
Edited on Thu Jan-12-06 03:06 PM by JohnyCanuck
when he warned us 50 years ago to watch out for the military industrial complex. I wonder if he could have even imagined at the time how truly barbaric it would turn out to be.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Of course the media are covering this up.
If you were to stand outside a recruiting station and ask each potential recruit walking in if he/she knew what depleted uranium was, I'd be surprised if 10% would know what you were talking about, the rest I imagine would likely assume it was fuel for nuclear power plants or a component of nuclear bombs.

For those potential recruits that did know depleted uranium is the leftover waste from refining uranium into nuclear power plant fuel and nuclear weapons and that it is being used as defensive armor on tanks and as the primary component of the business end of anti-tank cannon shells and in bunker buster bombs, how many of those would know that increasing numbers of reputable medical doctors and nuclear scientists are seriously questioning the safety of the depleted uranium munitions? How many would know that if they do sign up and someday find themselves in combat situations, patrolling territory taken from an enemy, or working as mechanics on vehicles hit by depleted uranium munitions they stand a good chance of sucking minute particles of depleted uranium into their lungs from where it will pass into the bloodstream, bones and bone marrow (and if they are men into their semen) to wreak havoc on their cells and DNA? How many know the consequences could be significantly increased chances of giving birth to children with birth defects and/or experiencing painful and debilitating long term diseases and a shortened lifespan?

How many would know that the depleted uranium from the munitions they will be eagerly dropping on enemy heads and using to destroy the enemy's bunkers and tanks is going to be scattered to the four winds to inflict horrible pain and suffering, not just on innocent civilian inhabitants of the region where the conflict takes place, but quite possibly far beyond as well (should the worst fears of some scientists be realized).

If the media was to cover this issue and make the problems associated with depleted uranium more widely known, the recruiting problems currently experienced by the military would likely multiply 10 fold. How are you going to have a war if no one comes? Since the corporate media has already demonstrated that their main mission in life is to carry water for Bush and the neocons, there is little likelihood of any of the media presstitutes taking on this issue. Even if a few of them did screw up the necessary courage to tackle it (other than to do a whitewash a la agent orange in Vietnam), they'd be buzzsawed in a flash. You can bet your bottom dollar on it.


Into The Buzzsaw: 18 Tales Of Media Censorship

by Michelle Goldberg

Edited by ex-CBS producer Kristina Borjesson, "Into the Buzzsaw" is a collection of essays, mostly by serious journalists excommunicated from the media establishment for tackling subjects like the CIA's role in drug smuggling, lies perpetuated by the investigators of TWA flight 800, POWs rotting in Vietnam, a Korean war massacre, the disenfranchisement of black voters in Bush's election, bovine growth hormone's dangers and a host of other unpopular issues.

Borjesson describes "the buzzsaw" as "what can rip through you when you try to investigate or expose anything this country's large institutions -- be they corporate or government -- want to keep under wraps. The system fights back with official lies, disinformation, and stonewalling.

http://www.freedomofthepress.net/intothebuzzsaw.htm

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Well...ok...I guess I'll give part of the media types a pass for ignoring
Edited on Thu Jan-12-06 09:24 PM by Jose Diablo
all these issues.

But here's the deal; reporters, journalists, these people are paid big bucks for just this reason, their job is to inform the people. It can be a very dangerous job if powerful men/women gain enough clout in the government to mount a physical attack against the media people.

When the clandestine part of our government planted spooks in our domestic news media, that right there was treason. Dulles, with Hoover letting him, this should have put both of those assholes behind bars. And the media at that time let them do it. This was far before the media had been overrun by the corporation. Why did the media types at that time let them do it? They were warm and comfortable and had that fuzzy feeling that economic security gives. To be sure, McCarthy and those other communist hunters (like Reagan) had a part in muzzling the news at that time too. But in the end, it comes down to cowardice on the part of the media that allowed the corporate take-over.

If you want an idea about how this came about, I would suggest reading Mike Royko when he was booted from the Chicago trib (I think it was the trib, maybe it was the Sun). He talked about his conflict with the top owner that bought the trib, it was that guy from Australia.

There has to come a time when the media types step-up to the plate, and do what they are paid big money to do, that's inform the people. Thats why we have so many ignoramuses as citizens, the media IS letting the American people down.

Edit to add: You know, I used to ride the Northwestern with Mike sometimes, even drank large quantities of 'Old Style' at the Billygoat Tavern on...Randolf I think it was, by the phone company building.

I kinda miss that old buzzard. Oh well, the good die young I guess.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. About 161000 Gulf War veterans are receiving disability payments from the
the US government. This is two of five Gulf War Vets on disability.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Can't we make them stop calling that vile stuff "DU"?
Edited on Thu Jan-12-06 06:39 PM by KamaAina
They're making us look bad! The University of Denver, too, also known as "DU". Maybe they could sue the military for copyright infringement or something.

If they have to call their radioactive poison by initials, how about "GWB"?

edit: suee? Well, they are pigs...
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Ballistic Uranium to Scatter Heavily on Civilian Onlookers ?
Edited on Thu Jan-12-06 08:54 PM by eppur_se_muova
(Well, it's a start. Offer your suggestions.)

Ballistic Uranium Munitions Forcing Unhealthy Contamination Knowingly ?
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. Ballistic Uranium Munitions Fallout (BUMF). Ask a sailor.
Seriously, I think something like "Uranium Munitions" or "Uranium Ordinance" is much more to the point. "Depleted" just means it is depleted in U-235, so can't be used for nuclear fuel or weapons as is. The main reason this is relevant is that it's an unwanted byproduct -- a glut on the market. Otherwise, this doesn't have a whole lot to do with its use in munitions.

Would settle for DUM or even DUO.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. Riiiight. So those cancer rates are skyrocketing in Iraq now, eh?
Don't show me the bullshit stories from that photographer who took pictures of every malformed infant in the country and tried to blame it on the first Gulf War. That's old news now.

A brand new slew of DU weapons were shot off all over Iraq since 2003, many times more than in the first Gulf War, and people have been living in close proximity with that horribly deadly substance for nearly three years now.

So... show me the figures. Show me the peer-reviewed statistical studies that indicate that people are suffering from higher rates of cancer in Iraq now. Show me the studies which factor out the environmental tragedies that nation has also suffered since then, as well as the increased use of pesticides, and the tons and tons of lead which has also been fired off in the exact same places.

Let's see 'em, and then maybe I'll begin to believe that Einstein, Planck, Schroedinger, Heisenberg, Feynman, Bethe, and Bohrs were wrong. As I've told you guys before, you're not just arguing against common sense and experimental observation. You're arguing against the mathematics which the world's finest minds think best describes the structure of the universe itself--not unlike the way in which proponents of intelligent design are trying to fight the concept of evolution.

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. OK, but first I want to hear how
"Don't show me the bullshit stories from that photographer who took pictures of every malformed infant in the country and tried to blame it on the first Gulf War. That's old news now." is 'bullshit' and old news now. You are saying, the doctor that reported this is spreading bullshit. That he was discredited is news to me. Show me where he is discredited by some peer review. You state a claim now back it up.

As for showing the statistics for the current use of these munitions, give it time.

I wonder how the adverse biological effects of ingested particles of low level radiation producing material somehow shows "Einstein, Planck, Schroedinger, Heisenberg, Feynman, Bethe, and Bohr were wrong". Show me where these people said there are no adverse biological effects of ingesting uranium. The OP does give a link that has the body of a letter from Oppenheimer that does raise questions from 1953 about radiation exposure to troops. You are saying Oppenheimer is full of bullshit?

I guess you really don't want to hear about how workers that painted those Mickey Mouse wristwatch glowing in the dark hands with radioactive material came down with cancer because they whetted the brush by licking the tip, thus ingesting low level radiation material. You wouldn't care to explain away how those people working right here in the good old USA came down with cancer? Do you have an expert peer reviewed article that concludes that was 'bullshit' too?

Have you ever taken a smoke detector apart? There is a thingamabob inside that has a warning label about radiation hazard and cautioning to dispose of it properly. Why is that label there?

From where I sit, you have added nothing with your post, other than asserting a stand of demanding statistical evidence after attempting to smear statistical evidence from the first Gulf War, that Depleted Uranium does cause birth defects. And smearing that evidence with nothing more than an assertion that the evidence is 'bullshit'.

It is on you to make your point that DU is NOT the cause of evidence of elevated incidences of radiation poisoning from Gulf War I. I don't what to hear about pesticides contamination either, as the cause. First an ad homonym attack against Oppenheimer and then a introduction of a side issue. You have offered no evidence that supports that conclusion, of pesticide causing elevated levels of birth defects in Iraq. Make no mistake though, there is evidence of a large increase in birth defects since GWI in Iraq.

Don't you think that 161,000 returning vets from GWI being on disability seems like a high number of causalities? Why is that number so high? You think they are malingerers or somehow faking that they are screwed-up. Are you saying they are lying and fully capable of working? Or can you offer another reason for the high number of casualties?
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I can change your opinion but it involves
ingesting DU particles

You are willing to ingest DU particles aren't you.

How much and for how long

Come on don't be shy

Step right up and tell us.

How much and for how long

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I'm willing to sleep in a DU coffin, if you like, for the rest of my life.
First of all: nope, I am not going to cite jack shit. The burden of proof is upon you to show this simple thing, that the rate of radioactive decay of depleted uranium somehow defies this equation here:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/halfli2.html

You're the ones claiming that's the case. Prove it. Oh, and by the way, when you do, you'll be a friggin millionaire, because it means that somehow, through the magic of the Flying Spaghetti Monster maybe, that physics doesn't work as we currently understand it. One of the side-benefits of that theory will be virtually unlimited power for humanity.

The primary component of DU, uranium-238, has a half life of 4.5 billion years (which means that in that time it has a 50% chance of decaying), and when it decays it gives off an alpha particle, which can be stopped by a piece of paper. Its byproducts are arguably more dangerous, but that's what has to happen first. That's the problem before you: show the world that's somehow not the case.

Right now, the scientific community believes that radiation from depleted uranium is of minimal danger to humans. You guys are the ones who want to make it into some sort of monstrous thing.

As I have warned you in the past, get rid of depleted uranium and the armed forces will switch to non-radioactive heavy metals like the original, lead, which is more poisonous, which dusts up easier, and which will have to be used in far higher volumes than DU. If you folks are successful in this crusade, you'll actually be harming far more people than you save.

The Mickey Mouse watchmakers, by the way, were painting the dials with radium, not DU. Radium is several thousand times more radioactive than DU, which is why it killed people.

Again the burden of proof is on you, not me. So hop to it and show me that physics ain't what the physicists say it is.

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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. No ingest this shit into your body and you'll need a fucking coffin
You answered with a Non answer

I want you to INHALE THIS SHIT

"The depleted uranium deployed in the Gulf War burns at a high temperature, producing a ceramic aerosol of inhalable particles that can lodge in the body from five to ten years before being excreted. Because DU radiates alpha particles, the largest and heaviest of the three kinds of radiation, DU is easier to shield against than alpha or gamma rays. However, when released internally, alpha radiation lodged next to living tissue can damage the DNA nucleus of the cell and provoke mutations and cancers."
http://www.hermes-press.com/depluran.htm

are you gonna back down are are you willing to inhale a ceramic aerosol of inhalable DU particles.

Come on INHALE it.

Scientists Urge Shell Clear-Up to Protect Civilians
Royal Society spells out dangers of depleted uranium
by Paul Brown


Hundreds of tons of depleted uranium used by Britain and the United States in Iraq should be removed to protect the civilian population, the Royal Society said yesterday, contradicting Pentagon claims it was not necessary.

The society's statement fuels the controversy over the use of depleted uranium (DU), which is an effective tank destroyer and bunker buster but is believed by many scientists to cause cancers and other severe illnesses.

The society, Britain's premier scientific institution, was incensed because the Pentagon had claimed it had the backing of the society in saying DU was not dangerous.

In fact, the society said, both soldiers and civilians were in short and long term danger. Children playing at contaminated sites were particularly at risk.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0417-06.htm

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=dangers+of+Depleted+Uranium&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. I'll tell you what...
I'll inhale (not, as you first said, ingest) any amount of depleted uranium you like, so long as you inhale an amount of lead equal to the amount needed to replace that depleted uranium as a weapon.

You'll need to inhale about four to six times the amount of lead compared to the amount of uranium I inhale--and believe me, that's a highly conservative estimate in your favor. The heavy metal poisoning I experience, gram for gram, will be far less severe than the heavy metal poisoning you enjoy. Then you get to multiply that by at least four. The radiation I take in won't be too terribly much worse than the carbon-14 (which by the way, is far more radioactive than DU) which makes up a small percentage of my body already.

How come you guys aren't worried about that carbon-14, eh? Because it's organic? Heh, that was a chemist's joke.

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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. If I breathed in C-14 in *comparable* mass, I'd be scared sick.
C-14 is present in *minute* traces naturally. Difficult to measure, unlike uranium, which is 100% radioactive isotopes, "depleted" or not. Oh, and there's NO way to limit how much of it you breathe in -- very much unlike uranium, where the ONLY reason people are breathing it in is because of military decisions. So no one has a CHOICE about breathing traces of C-14, but they do have a CHOICE about breathing uranium dust, UNLESS our military makes that choice for us. THIS is the issue which has people worked up.

I've worked in labs where people handled H-3 and C-14 in trace quantities. Rigorous safety training was required, and if radioactivity much above natural background was detected in your urine (monthly tests, IIRC) you could be pulled from your project, for your own safety, as well as the safety of others.

When you say C-14 is "much more radioactive" I see you're only considering the decay rate -- yes, C-14 has a shorter half-life, so produces more radiation per unit time for the same number of atoms. But U238 produces >4 MeV for each decay, whereas C-14 produces only about 0.156 MeV. And uranium produces radioactive "daughter" nuclei with very short half-lives, so each U atom is responsible for several decay events, not just one.

Even back in the fifties, the ICRP recommended no more than 0.045 microCuries maximum exposure/quarter for U-238. In contrast, the limit was 2200 microCuries/qr for C-14. (Note that the Curie is a measure of actual radiation received, not mass.)
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. DU emits substantial beta and gamma radiation too (radioactive decay)
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 02:43 AM by JohnyCanuck
Within 6 months, the daughter elements of any sample of originally 100% pure U-238 will be emitting substantial quantities of Beta radiaton along with some gamma radiation as well, due to the radioactive decay process. See below.


Contamination of Persian Gulf War Veterans andOthers by Depleted Uranium
by Leonard A. Dietz

July 19, 1996 (last updated Feb. 21, 1999)

<snip>

Only the first three isotopes in the uranium decay series or chain headed by U-238 are important in determining the radioactivity of DU (Ref. 12). Uranium-238 decays into thorium-234 (Th-234), which decays into protactinium-234 (Pa-234), which decays into U-234, etc. down the decay chain. The 246,000 year half life of U-234 is too long for it to decay much during our lifetimes and produce significant numbers of decay progeny.

The U-238 decay chain is broken during the chemical reduction of uranium hexafluoride into DU metal and is broken again during the melting and processing of the metal into a penetrator. To determine the maximum time it takes to regain equilibrium in the partial decay chain, we assume a solid sample of uranium that initially contains only the U-238 isotope, i.e. no decay progeny. Using Bateman's equations, (Ref. 13), we calculate the growth of Th-234 and Pa-234 activities as a function of elapsed time in weeks. The results are given in Table II.

Table II. Radioactivity (disintegrations/second) in 1 gram of
U-238 with no decay progeny initially present.

Half lives used:
U-238 = 4.47e9 years
Th-234 = 24.10 days
Pa-234 = 1.17 minutes, 6.69 hours (two decay states)
U-234 = 2.46e5 years (Ref. 14).
Scientific notation is used, i.e. 2.46e5 = 246000.

Weeks U-238 ---> Th-234 ---> Pa-234 ---> U-234
------------------------------------------------------------
0 12,430 0 0 0.000
1 12,430 2,270 2,150 0.000
5 12,430 7,890 7,840 0.001
10 12,430 10,770 10,750 0.004
15 12,430 11,830 11,820 0.007
20 12,430 12,210 12,210 0.010
25 12,430 12,350 12,350 0.013
30 12,430 12,400 12,400 0.017

(Sorry, the table formatting doesn't carry over in the cut and paste. Click on the link below to read the article and you'll see the table formatted properly /JC)

After 25 weeks, Th-234 and Pa-234 have reached 99.4% of the decay rate of U-238 and for practical purposes have reached secular equilibrium with U-238, their parent isotope. Secular equilibrium means that the decay progeny of U-238 are being replaced at the same rate they are decaying; after 25 weeks all three isotopes are decaying at approximately the same rate. This is a maximum time; in reality, equilibrium will be reached much faster, since these two isotopes can never be separated totally from U-238. The isotope U-238 emits alpha particles and also emits some gamma rays. Its decay progeny Th-234 and Pa-234 each emit beta particles and gamma rays. An alpha particle is a fast helium atom with its two electrons removed, a beta particle is a high-speed electron and a gamma ray is like an X-ray.

From this analysis we conclude that in a solid sample of DU, six months at most after manufacture of a DU penetrator, or DU armor for a tank, or DU particles in a person's body, substantial additional radiation in the form of beta particles and gamma rays always will be present. In fact, most of the penetrating gamma radiation and all of the penetrating beta radiation from DU comes, not from uranium, but from the decay progeny of U-238 (Ref. 15). In a year, only one-thousandth of a gram (1 milligram or mg) of DU generates more than a billion alpha particles, beta particles and gamma rays. The U.S. Army has investigated the generation of DU aerosols in armored vehicles hit by DU cannon rounds. Their investigators report "...that personnel inside DU struck vehicles could receive a dose in the `tens of milligrams' range due to inhalation" (Ref. 16). This exposure results in an acute dose of uranium.

http://www.wise-uranium.org/dgvd.html


And here is Leonard Deitz's academic and work background just in case you want to question his knowledge of the topic. It's taken from his obituary as he recently passed away.



Leonard A. Dietz, age 82, of Niskayuna, died October 24, 2005. Dr. Dietz was born in Manistee, Mich. and grew up there. In February 1943, he joined the U.S. Army Air Corps and after graduating from flying training, served as a pilot in the 506th Fighter Group, 462nd Fighter Squadron and was based on Iwo Jima. He flew the P51D Mustang fighter on very long range missions during the closing months of World War II. He was awarded three Air Medals and a Distinguished Unit Citation, and was discharged from the Air Corps in August 1946 as a 1st Lt.

After the war, he graduated from the University of Michigan in 1949 with a BS in physics, and received an MS in physics in 1950. He then joined GE and worked in the general engineering laboratory in Schenectady until 1955, when he transferred to Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory where he worked for 28 years. He was an experimental research physicist in mass spectrometry and was responsible for developing advanced mass spectrometer instrumentation and new analytical techniques for isotope ratio analysis of uranium and plutonium. His extensive published research in ion detection resulted in ion pulse-counting detectors for mass spectrometry.

He was manager of a technical group that included the mass spectrometer component. Dr. Dietz was active in a local Boy Scout troop while his sons were growing up and was a volunteer fireman for 14 years. He was treasurer of Jones Boarding Home, a local non-profit corporation that took care of mentally disadvantaged adults, and was active in the First Unitarian Society of Schenectady and the Unitarian Universalist Society of Albany, and was president of the Albany Memorial Society.

After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, he provided physics support on airborne uranium particles from depleted uranium munitions to TV, radio and print journalists, to Congress, and to environmentalists and researchers who were investigating the spread and health risks of these radioactive particles. A generous and loving husband and father, Dr. Dietz is survived by his wife of 55 years, Betty; his children, Thomas, Kristin and Allen; two grandchildren, Max and Iris.

http://www.umrc.net/news.aspx


Wikipedia entry on U238 (Depleted Uranium)

While uranium-238 is minimally radioactive, its decay products - Thorium 234 and Protactinium 234 - are beta particle emitters with half-lives about 20 days and one minute respectively (Pa 234 decays to Uranium 234, which has a half-life of hundreds of millennia, and this isotope does not build to equilibrium concentration for a very long time). When the two first isotopes in the decay chain reach their (tiny) equilibrium concentrations, a sample of initially pure uranium-238 will emit three times the radiation due to uranium-238 itself, and most of this will be beta radiation. After all the beta radiation is almost over, the by-product of uranium-238 would be (Pb) lead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U238


While it's true external alpha particles can be stopped from penetrating the skin by the layers of dead cells on the outside of the skin, in combat situations when the depleted burns or explodes extremely small microscopic pieces of DU are created which will get blown around by the wind, mixed with dust particles etc and will get inhaled into the lungs and from there they can pass through the lung/blood barrier into the blood stream and be stored in internal organs and bone. Medical authorities like Dr. Asaf Durakovic, former Professor of Nuclear Medicine at Georgetown University, and Dr. Rosalie Bertell among others believe believe there is plenty of evidence to show that once inside the body even the alpha radiation is much more harmful to the cells than when it is external to the body (not to mention the beta and gamma that will also be present as well)as noted above.


AMERICA'S RADIOACTIVE MUNITIONS THREAT TO OUR OWN TROOPS AS WELL AS ENEMY
By John Hanchette

<snip>

A fellow of the American College of Physicians, a medical consultant for Hadassah University in treating the children of Chernobyl, a U.S. medical team leader for the Nuclear Treaty Joint Verification component in the former Soviet Union, chief of nuclear medicine at the VA Medical Center in Wilmington, Del., Durakovic held the highest radiology credentials an official in Washington could hold.

Durakovic was the guy the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) designated to assess the White House for radiation -- and hopefully pronounce an all-clear -- in case some terrorist detonated a low-level nuclear suitcase bomb or similar device in Washington. A colonel in the U.S. Army Reserves, Durakovic served in Desert Shield, the five-month preparatory run-up in combat theater to Gulf War One, as chief of a medical detachment. No one told him about DU weaponry either.

After the war, as a VA doctor, he assessed 24 soldiers from a New Jersey transportation and supply company who had briefly inspected and cleaned some tanks destroyed by DU. He sent his readings to two other VA doctors in Boston, who confirmed 14 of the two dozen troops had been contaminated. The VA asked Durakovic to refrain from publicly describing the effects of DU on the human body. He refused. He said that was akin to "lying." The VA fired him. Durakovic soon testified before the House Government Reform Committee. When investigators for that panel -- about the only federal group that showed real concern over Gulf War Illness -- met, the records of the 24 New Jersey troop examinations had somehow disappeared.

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/hanchette54.html


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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. You're missing the most important point. This is DUST which is inhaled.
A sample of massive uranium may be reasonably safe to handle -- I wouldn't hesitate to handle a sample myself. But when that same sample is dispersed in an explosion it combines with oxygen to make uranium oxide dust. This dust is then inhaled into the lungs, where it resides and irradiates you from the INSIDE. Regardless of whether you are exposed to alpha, beta, or gamma rays, the fact that you are being exposed from within your own tissues is what does the damage.

Alpha rays are fairly effectively blocked by your skin. In the process, the outer skin cells are damaged, but they are shed quickly, so no big deal. The same is not true of the cells in your lungs. So while you might be willing to lie in a coffin of uranium, that cannot be remotely compared to breathing in even a small amount of dust -- the latter causes much greater exposure, at *much* shorter range to the affected cells.

It's worth keeping in mind that all manner of "safe" substances can constitute a health hazard when inhaled as dust. Think asbestos (epithelioma), silicate rock (silicosis, or "white lung"), coal ("black lung"), alumina (Shaver's disease), even *cotton* ("brown lung").

If you are going to argue from the basis of physics, you need to acknowledge ALL the physics -- such as finely divided powders, with high surface areas, being many times more active than massive solids with low surface area/mass ratios. Ask anyone who works in the field of catalysts, if you've never seen a demo of this effect.

There is nothing wrong with the equation you cite -- I've taught chemistry for years, and could teach my students how to use the half -life equation from memory. I also realize that it's germane to the discussion, but far, FAR from being the most important aspect.
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. It is interesting to me
being ex Navy EOD that EODs are required to wear protective clothing and respiratory protection when working with exploded DU ordnance.

Might it be DU is not completely clean of U235 and other isotopes of Uranium?

180

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Some reports indicate contamination with plutonium.
There have been reports that some of the DU was "accidentally" contaminated with small quantities of Plutonium.

SOME OF THE armor-piercing, tank-killing depleted-uranium ammunition used in combat by the U.S. military was contaminated with highly radioactive substances, possibly including plutonium, according to a recent Swiss study.

That simple scientific fact has serious political consequences for the United States. Large amounts of depleted-uranium shells were used during the Persian Gulf war and more recently in Kosovo. Peace activists and U.S. military scientists for some time have expressed concerns about the health effects even of "uncontaminated" depleted uranium, including claims of links to severe birth defects, leukemia and the mysterious Gulf War Syndrome in U.S. veterans. Those concerns have always been dismissed by U.S. government officials, who say that depleted uranium is relatively harmless because of its low radioactivity.

These revelations of highly radioactive contaminants should be the last straw -- it's time for a worldwide ban on depleted-uranium munitions. The facts are straightforward: Researchers at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology discovered that depleted-uranium munitions used in Kosovo were contaminated with uranium 236, an isotope of uranium not found in nature. Numerous other scientists, including former U.S. military biologist and retired Col. Asaf Durakovic, have found traces of U-236 in the urine of gulf war veterans.

U-236 is created only in nuclear reactors and bombs; there is no other known source. The depleted uranium being used by the U.S. military must have come from reprocessed reactor fuel. This means that "depleted" uranium almost certainly contains plutonium and other extremely carcinogenic substances.

http://marcosaba.tripod.com/baltimoresun.html

Keep in mind as well that there was a US Army report produced in 1943 with suggestions as to how radiological weapons could be produced which would function by creating a cloud of superfine particles of radioactive material which would unavoidably be inhaled by anyone in the vicinity of the discharge. Leuren Moret the anti-DU activist and former Lawrence Livermore staff member says this 1943 proposal reads like a blueprint for the current DU weapons.


Attached (Attach. 2) is a declassified memo to General L. R. Groves, director of the Manhattan Project, dated October 30, 1943. Major Doug Rokke provided me with this memo. It summarizes a report written by Manhattan Project physicists Drs. James B. Conant, A. H. Compton and H.C. Urey on the dissemination of very fine radioactive material as a method of warfare. It is a “blueprint” for depleted uranium as it has been used in Iraq, Kuwait, Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan during the past decade. The memo details the use of very fine and superfine particles of radioactive materials as a military weapon. Depleted uranium, produces very fine and superfine particles in large amounts as it burns. The 1943 memo outlines what was known in 1943 and below are my comments:

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Leuren-Moret-Gen-Groves21feb03.htm


Here is the link to the 1943 report:
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/Groves-Memo-Manhattan30oct43.htm

Knowing the propensity for the US military industrial complex to experiment on live human beings as guinea pigs (e.g. early atomic bomb testing, agent orange etc.), some of us could probably be excused for wondering just how "accidental" this plutonium contamination really was.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. 1943 US Army report proposed a weapon similiar to DU
Snip from a letter by former Lawrence Livermore scientist Leuren Moret to Congressman Jim McDermott in which she discusses a 1943 US Army report on how a radiological weapon might be created using extremely fine particles of radioactive material(just like DU after it burns or explodes).

Moret writes:


Attached (Attach. 2) is a declassified memo to General L. R. Groves, director of the Manhattan Project, dated October 30, 1943. Major Doug Rokke provided me with this memo. It summarizes a report written by Manhattan Project physicists Drs. James B. Conant, A. H. Compton and H.C. Urey on the dissemination of very fine radioactive material as a method of warfare. It is a “blueprint” for depleted uranium as it has been used in Iraq, Kuwait, Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan during the past decade. The memo details the use of very fine and superfine particles of radioactive materials as a military weapon. Depleted uranium, produces very fine and superfine particles in large amounts as it burns. The 1943 memo outlines what was known in 1943 and below are my comments:

- A gas warfare instrument: the memo indirectly referred to fission products from Fermi’s nuclear pile or radioactive waste like depleted uranium. The pyrophoric effect of depleted uranium, which spontaneously burns when heated to 170 C (once it is fired) and on impact, effectively forms very large numbers of extremely fine (0.1 micron) and submicroscopic particles as small as 0.001 micron or 10 Ångstroms (see Attach. 3 - Chart “Characteristics of Particles and Particle Dispersoids”) as described in the memo. Particles in this size range behave like a gas when inhaled, disperse in the lungs to the blood lung barrier where the white blood cells (greater than 7microns in diameter) engulf the tiny particles of depleted uranium and carry them throughout the body. Once these particles have been engulfed by blood cells or lodged in tissues, they may not be detectable in the urine. Contaminated personnel will take the depleted uranium home, deposited in tissues throughout their bodies.

There is no known treatment for exposure.

- It will permeate a gas mask filter: particles in the 0.1 micron range will penetrate even a HEPA filter (High Efficiency Particulate Airfilter – see Attach. 4 - HEPA chart) in large numbers. The filters in gas masks issued to military personnel are much less efficient than HEPA filters. There are 1 billion particles of 0.1 micron diameter in a cubic meter of normal air. It is clear that a man (without a gas mask) breathing at a normal rate (about 28 cubic meters per day6) and retaining 75% of the very fine particulate matter in the respiratory system6 will inhale very large numbers of very fine particles in a short time period.

<snip>

There is no possible protection from exposure to very fine particles of depleted uranium through filtering of air.

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Leuren-Moret-Gen-Groves21feb03.htm


Here is the link to the declassified 1943 US Army report:
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/Groves-Memo-Manhattan30oct43.htm

Check out her letter as well for her comments on a recent report by the European Comitte on Radiaton Risk which found that previous studies had underestimated the effects of low level radiation by 100 to 1000 times.


A new report from the European Parliament has been released “2003 Recommendations of the European Committee on Radiation Risk: Health Effects of Ionising Radiation Exposure at Low Doses for Radiation Protection Purposes” Regulators’ Edition: Brussels, 2003 10. The report was written by 46 international scientists and has over 550 references to epidemiological studies which include nuclear site leukemias, Chernobyl infants, minisatellite mutations, weapons fallout cancers, DU Gulf Veterans, and Iraqi children.

The report concludes that the International Committee on Radiation Protection (ICRP) determined international standards for risk and dose effects from studies on A-bomb survivors which were based on high dose, external, acute exposures. The ICRP model only considered cancer as a health risk associated with radiation exposure. The ICRP model, using “bathtub” chemistry, “steam engine” physics, and deceptive reporting, produced faulty and fraudulent estimates of risk and dose effects. Additionally, because the ICRP model is based on acute, high dose, external exposure it cannot accurately determine risks or dose response for internal, chronic, isotopic exposures. For this reason, the ICRP and ECRR models are mutually exclusive.

This new ECRR report based on epidemiological studies, concludes that the health effects of low level radiation exposure have been underestimated by the ICRP model by 100-1000 times. It also includes other health effects due to radiation exposure from global weapons fallout. In addition to cancer it estimates the number of foetal deaths, infant mortality, and predicts “a 10% loss of life quality integrated over all diseases and conditions in those who were exposed over the period of global weapons fallout”.

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Leuren-Moret-Gen-Groves21feb03.htm
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Depleted uranium is WMD
Terry Jemison at the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs stated in August 2004 that over 518,000 Gulf-era veterans (14-year period) are now on medical disability, and that 7,039 were wounded on the battlefield in that same period. Over 500,000 U.S. veterans are homeless.

In some studies of soldiers who had normal babies before the war, 67 percent of the post-war babies are born with severe birth defects - missing brains, eyes, organs, legs and arms, and blood diseases.

In southern Iraq, scientists are reporting five times higher levels of gamma radiation in the air, which increases the radioactive body burden daily of inhabitants. In fact, Iraq, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan are uninhabitable.
http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050809/OPINION02/508090332/1014/OPINION
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. BikeWriter, I have to agree. HE+U = DIRTY BOMB
Now that you put it that way, it seems obscenely obvious to me. If you took med lab radwaste and strapped it around an IED that would get you sent off to Gitmo for the rest of your life. If you fill a radioactive uranium shell with high explosive you get a multimillion dollar Pentagon contract.

How hard can it be to spot a double standard?
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. With half a million of our own on disability already...
I'm expecting many more in the next few years. The Pentagon has to continue their denial or the war crimes trials will begin.
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samhsarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. kick
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
34. I am gonna kick this thread once more
because I think using depleted uranium munitions is a war crime similar to using Willy Pete against targets. WP cannot be banned as long as it's used as an illuminator, but will command in an army agree to only use it as an illuminator. They could try but who will actually deny someone on the ground any weapon at their disposal. DU is dense and thus a good weapon to kill a tank or penetrate a hardened site. But using it has long term consequences.

DU is really nasty shit if it gets inside a persons body. It's lethal, but not immediately. Thats why it's wrong to use it. It keeps killing long after the conflict is over. And it's targets are mostly non-combatants in the conflict. Plus, it cannot be contained to a single area because its dust rides the winds.

I think the debate on using it, classifying it as a weapon and ultimately if the army should be allowed to have it as a weapon needs much more discussion at the level of policy. It should not be allowed to be decided by the army if they can use it. It's a political decision, not tactical.
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