Judge rules snow making OK on Native American SACRED mountain

[azndndude]

Once again Native American religious concerns and issues swept under by recreational use of SACRED mountain in northern AZ. Waste water to be used to make snow for skiing
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0112drought12-snowbowl.html
Why dont we ok using wastewater to clean the Jew's wailing wall or Islam's Dome of the Holy Rock or The Vatican floors? Do you think there would be an outcry then?

for info on this topic visit www.savethepeaks.org

[Loonman]

1. Doesn't say what specific tribes

Media assholes.

[bigtree]

21. .

“Many of these tribes hold true that if this Holy Mountain is disturbed, than so too the fabric of their culture, their spirituality and their livelihood will be disturbed”. The San Francisco Peaks are a sacred place to thirteen tribes in Northern Arizona. The tribes go up to the mountain for religious beliefs, ceremonies, and prayers. Specifically, the tribes pray to the rain gods. If snow machines are put on the mountain, that would defeat the purpose of praying for rain. The holiness of the peaks would be lost for the Native Americans, knowing that their prayers are being disrespected by the Arizona SnowBowl. "

http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~zea2/final.htm

"The San Francisco Peaks are sacred to over 13 tribes throughout the southwest including: the Navajo, Hopi, Zuni, Tewa, Haulapai, Havasupai, Yavapai-Apache, Yavapai-Prescott, Tonto Apache, White Mountain Apache, San Carlos Apache, San Juan Southern Pauite, Fort Mcdowell Mohave Apache, and Acoma."

http://www.blackfire.net/IAM-site/snowbowl.html

[ixion]

2. weren't the xians just whining about being persecuted?

I don't hear them saying anything now. :eyes:

on edit: fix type-o

[xchrom]

3. indeed.

you NAILED that beautifully.

[FredUptoHere]

4. much ado about NOTHING.

if the Native Americans held clear title to the mountain, it might be a different issue.

btw- i always thought that just about everything in nature was held "sacred" by one Native American tribe or another...

separation of church/state extends to native american religious beliefs too.

[knitter4democracy]

6. They're public lands that were stolen from them.

Yeah, clear title would be great, but the Native tribes have had a long history with problems with that.

That, and there's a difference between something holy and something truly sacred. Some tribes believe that their kachinas and other dieties live there. That's more important than believing that the land in general is holy and something to be treated with reverence.

[FredUptoHere]

8. unfortunately for them, they LOST the war(s).

if you think the land belongs to them- give them yours.

[azndndude]

9. Does that make it right? and moral?

[FredUptoHere]

11. i never said it did.

it just is the way things work.

[knitter4democracy]

18. I have a house for sale.

I'll cut the price down on it, if anyone wants it. It's been for sale since July. We're just trying to get out from under it now. It's even in a school district with full-ride scholarships for all high school grads who want to go to college.

As for your attitude that it was just war and that everything's fair in war and afterwards, I find that extremely disappointing in any DUer. Have you ever been to a reservation? Have you ever talked with anyone who's lived through what our government has done to them? Have you ever read anything on that sordid part of our past? If you had, and had a heart, you'd feel differently.

I talked with a wonderful lady who had been abducted from her family and forced to go to a Catholic school--by US Army troops, no less--and speak only in English and worship only as a Catholic. She was Hopi and only finally saw her family, after being abducted at the age of six, when she graduated at the age of 18. She's a great-grandma now, but she remembers what she went through.

I had the honor to be a student teacher for a month in Chinle, AZ on the Navajo Nation Reservation, and what I saw and heard made my heart hurt. Horrible things have been done, and that "war" went on far longer than it was supposed to. Treaties were signed and broken, pieces of paper were burned or lost, and people have been treated like crap for ages and ages.

[FredUptoHere]

20. if you REALLY feel so strongly- GIVE your house to Native Americans

otherwise- you are just as culpable for profiting from the sins of your ancestors.

it's really tough NOT to be a hypocrite in white america.

[Clark2008]

24. Ahem... what if we're Native American?

I'm Native American and Scotch-Irish.

Do I need to give half my house back to myself?

[FredUptoHere]

29. i wasn't addressing you...

but if you hold the same attitudes as the poster to whom i was...then, "yes".

[Clark2008]

91. I was just making the point that there are many Americans

whose ancestors are Native American; so the theory that we should give up our land - in this case, to ourselves - really no longer works.

[FredUptoHere]

97. if they feel strongly that the lands were "stolen" from native americans-

they can still turn it over for tribal use.

most tribes didn't belief in personal property rights in regard to land- so if someone claims native american heritage, and wants to live up to it- they should GIVE title to their lands to their chosen tribal organization...just sayin' is all...

[knitter4democracy]

27. If I could do it and not put my kids in the poor house, I would.

Thanks for being such a jerk about it.

We tried to give it to the state for Katrina victims, and then FEMA cut off more victims coming to our state, we have it listed with an agency that helps people out of poverty and into their first home, and we're still seeing if we can donate it. We owe so much on the house, though, that we would have to pay for all of that as well in order to donate, and we already owe as much as we can afford.

The house sits on a plat of land originally belonging to a farmer who sold it to the city. That farmer took it from the Native Americans in our area, most likely, so yeah, there's something of the sins of those before us in there. As for profit, though, we're taking a loss on the house already. There's no profit anymore--we're just trying to get rid of it.

[FredUptoHere]

31. so you admit- your children are more important than the poor children-

of impoverished Native Americans.

just so we all know where we stand.

[knitter4democracy]

39. I'm a mom.

If I don't put the needs of my kids first, they'll get taken away from me. For some reason, I find that bothersome. :eyes:

Apparently, though, you didn't read the whole post and see that we're doing the best we can to make sure that another family needing a house on their way up gets it. Frankly, I don't care who that is. It was our first house, and it's a lovely place to get started as a family. If we had more assets, I would pay that thing off and donate it. We don't though, as we're still a young family with lots of debt, so we're doing the best we can to be as fair as we can.

So, are you admitting that you're being an asshole about this? You come on here (with a low post count, I might add) and say that it's separation of church and state and the effects of war. That it's just life. What have you done, though, to make a bad situation better? Anything? Have you tried anything at all? Or are you far more content to sit on your ass in front of a computer and bother anyone and everyone who does care and is trying?

[FredUptoHere]

40. but if your house sits on stolen land-

shouldn't it be given back to the "rightful" owners?

this topic IS about separation of church and state...you can't SEE that???

i guess i'm an "asshole" for pointing out your hypocrisy, huh? that's it, isn't it?

[knitter4democracy]

50. I can.

Two issues:
1. I don't know who the "rightful owners" are. The only documentation I have to the house goes back to the farmer. I have nothing before that. There are tribes still in the area, but they have said that they don't think their ancestors lived in that particular area. So, I don't know.

2. Separation of church and state should be dealt with evenly. If megachurches can have police details to help the traffic on Sunday mornings and all, then I think that several tribes should be listened to for saying that an area that used to belong to them and was stolen is sacred and should be respected. It sounds like, from the article, that we're talking about public lands that the developer is leasing. If that's the case, then don't you think it wrong that his rights as a leaser of public lands outweigh the rights of those who owned the lands before they were stolen and who need them for religious purposes?

I think that, in my area, if a church lost their land and then had it desecrated, there'd be a huge uproar. If it's really about separation of church and state, then it should be done evenly and fairly. Replace native tribes with churches and see if you come to the same conclusion.

[FredUptoHere]

58. IF our lands are stolen from native americans-

as you appear to believe...
aren't THEY the "rightful owners"?
it doesn't matter that your exact parcel wasn't a specific site of a village at one time(although it might have been)- it's a matter of doing what's "right" for people who had their lands stolen by YOUR ancestors and forefathers.

and i don't believe that anyone NEEDS anything for religious purposes, as i find ALL religions to be a total crock, and ALL worshippers to be fools.

and- most churches and megachurhes hold clear title to their land, so they have definite property rights.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FredUptoHere]

76. the debate is about separation of church and state.

NO religoids deserve special treatment.

[Bridget Burke]

86. No, the debate is about the environment & respect for the rights of others

Despite what you say.

[FredUptoHere]

90. and the "rights" are determined by ownership-

if they don't "own" the mountain, they ain't got no "rights" to it.

[fishwax]

106. Why does the ski resort have rights? They don't own the mountain either.

:shrug:

[madmom]

33. The south lost the war to does that mean..

everything they hold dear and sacred is up for grabs?

[FredUptoHere]

36. they don't have slaves, do they?

so pretty much- yes.

[knitter4democracy]

42. Then it's okay to build strip malls on battlefields?

Let's bulldoze down Lee's home and all the buildings owned by the Confederacy and put up strip malls and fast food joints. They lost the war, you know . . .

More than that, let's erase all forms of recognition of the South and their contributions to the nation. Let's pretend they never existed and then move them into certain swampy and neglected areas to die from disease and starvation. If we did all that, it would be closer to what's been done to the Native Americans.

[FredUptoHere]

44. if someone owns the battlefield and wants to- why not?

it's all about ownership rights.

if you feel that what was done to native americans was so egregious- give them YOUR house and lands- keeping "stolen" property is just as evil as stealing it in the first place.

[knitter4democracy]

54. They're kept from doing so.

Historical groups have kept up pressure to prevent those things from happening. They feel that the public has a stronger right than the individual property owner when it comes to history.

As for selling or giving my house, you've obviously not read anything I've written about it. I'm done with that until you do and address what I've written.

[FredUptoHere]

63. what exactly would you like adressed?

i don't respond to every word of every poster- if you do, i'm in awe...

[knitter4democracy]

85. Whatever.

If I'm in a back-and-forth debate with someone, I try to respect them enough to respond to all of their points. If it's something across an entire board, I pick and choose which posts to deal with, and then I try to deal with all the points that poster made. Obviously, your style is more hit and run and then come back and hit the same point again.

I have to run--lunch and nap time, and my son's hit his limit on playing with his tool box and bolt board. So, if I'm not responding to you, that's why.

[FredUptoHere]

92. i asked you a simple question...

i do the same thing- i respond to what i consider pertinent, especially when i'm responding to 10 different posters at once.

[knitter4democracy]

125. Okay.

I don't tend to respond to that many at once, so I can see why that would make for different styles of answering.

You keep harping on the hypocrisy line, but you don't even deal with the point that we're at least trying to sell to people who need help. We're not making a profit on the house, so there goes your profit point, and we're at least trying to do right by the buyers and to not cost us more than we can afford for our family to lose.

Instead, you keep asking why we don't just give our house away and then call me a hypocrite when I explain that we can't but are trying for a decent balance. That's not in the spirit of a true debate--instead, please explain why even trying to sell to people needing affordable housing and taking a loss on the house still makes us hypocritical in your argument.

[madmom]

43. so the only thing they held sacred was slaves then?

they still have their confederate flag they still have their tobacco plantations, they still have their nascar.

[FredUptoHere]

47. nascar was a civil war issue?

who'da thunk it?

[madmom]

52. didn't say that but it is forced on the rest of the sane public.

[FredUptoHere]

64. it's not forced on ME...

my television has a channel changer.

[madmom]

so does mine but even non sports stations cover it..

every where you go it's nascar clothes, signs , politics remember nascar dads?

[AntiCoup2K4]

75. They still control the outcome of every goddamned election....

...Sorry to get off topic, but that had to be thrown in

[AntiCoup2K4]

62. Bush lost the Iraq war

Does that mean all the right wing churches should become porno theaters?

[FredUptoHere]

67. only the ones in Iraq.

duh.

[azndndude]

7. Much ado about NOTHING?

We once held title to the land but it was STOLEN asshole.
Perhaps if you took the time to find out why certain mountain was so sacred you might think differently
are you an Republican? because this is the mindset of most of these rednecks here.

[FredUptoHere]

10. no- your side lost the war(s).

that's how human history goes.

if you want it back, you're going to have to do it militarily.

sorry to be the bearer of cold hard facts- but that's just how the world works.

[azndndude]

12. You would think that your attitude was a thing of the past!

[FredUptoHere]

13. what "attitude"?

I'm just stating how things work in the real world.

[dogday]

19. Yes you are the poster child for Change

Your answers are the exact reason we seek change in this country. The mighty and the rich win and the weak and the poor lose. This is not the way of America, we are supposed to be the peacemakers, not the peacekeepers.

[FredUptoHere]

22. do you believe in the separation of church and state?

how is this situation any different?

[azndndude]

23. the attitude that whoever has the bigger stick is right

Doing things militarily is wrong. Isn't that why we are opposed to to invading Iraq? Changing this old mindset that just because someone LOST a war has to take anything that the victor spit out. Yes I know about living in the REAL world world. There are people like you who dont have a clue or care to try and perhaps gets things changed to atone for past misdeeds. I am glad Rosa Parks did not have the attitude that her people would have to accept the fact that they will have to continue to sit in the back of the bus because it was the REAL world.. One person can make a difference. Attitudes have to be changed. Respect the beliefs and concerns of the people who's lands you occupy.

[FredUptoHere]

28. i occupy MY land...bought and paid for.

i always thought that most Native Americans didn't believe that ANYONE "owned" the land-
so where do YOU get the "Respect the beliefs and concerns of the people who's lands you occupy."???? (and technically, the correct word would be "whose")

[bigtree]

14. War?

It was GENOCIDE that proceeded the removal of Indians from the lands they had occupied for centuries before the arrival of the Europeans. This is like throwing pisswater on a church, but I don't expect you to understand.

[FredUptoHere]

16. a MOUNTAIN is a lot different than a building...

"... but I don't expect you to understand."

:eyes:

[bigtree]

25. the mountain is a place of worship for the tribes

they pray for spiritual rain there, which will be corrupted by the wastewater derived artificial water envisioned by the park officials.

But you can continue to be obtuse about this . . . without my participation.

[FredUptoHere]

32. are there any mountains that AREN'T held sacred by one tribe or another?

or wind?
or trees?
or streams?

[G_j]

53. there are geographically SPECIFIC sites

important to Native American tribes.

you obviously have not done much study in this area.

[FredUptoHere]

69. and if they hold clear title to them-

they can worship as they please.

that's how america works- you obviously haven't done much study in this area.

[G_j]

82. that's how america works

yea the Trail of Tears, smallpox infected blankets, extermination of the buffalo, broken treaties, lies and genocide was just dandy!

enjoy your hopefully short stay

[FredUptoHere]

88. exactly.

you're catching on...good for you.

:hi:

[G_j]

96. meaning?

these things are OK?

[FredUptoHere]

99. didn't say that...

just that it's how it's always worked, and pretty much still does.

the winners write the history books.

[G_j]

101. so why do you defend it?

there has always been rape too.

:shrug:

[FredUptoHere]

103. where did i defend anything illegal?

like rape is.

[foo_bar]

123. technically, breaking our own treaties was illegal

The Court declared that the Cherokee nation was not a "foreign state" as written in the constitution. They are a state and have been treated as such since the beginnings of the country. "The numerous treaties made with them by the United States recognize them as a people capable of maintaining the relations of peace and war; of being responsible in their political character for any violation of their engagements, or for any aggression committed on the citizens of the United States by any individual of their community...The acts of our Government plainly recognize the Cherokee Nation as a State, and the Courts are bound by those acts" ("Cherokee Nation v. Georgia" Legal Information Institute).
<...>
The state of Georgia refused to abide by the Court decision, and President Jackson refused to enforce the law. But, if the case was passed through the Supreme Court, are not the executive and legislative branches supposed to adhere to the ruling? They are. However, Jackson had goals to accomplish that he would not let be stopped by another branch of government. So, he virtually told the court if they wanted to pass this ruling, he would not implement their decision. The Supreme Court is not responsible for enforcement-that responsibility is given to the executive and legislative-and Jackson was fully aware of that distinction. As it is laid out in the constitution, congress, "provide(s) for calling forth (of) the militia to execute the laws of the union"(Art.I Sec.8 Cl.15). Further, "the President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States" (Art.II Sec.2 Cl.1). It is unconstitutional that the Supreme Court be held to enforcement of the laws.

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~landc/2002/projects/projects2001/diplomacy/judiciary.html

Note the similarity to Bush's defense of warrantless searches.

[Zomby Woof]

55. I know a lot of Navajo in northern AZ

And they hold the peaks in much higher esteeem than the surrounding land in general, the same way a christian holds Bethlehem sacred or Muslims hold Mecca sacred. The Navajos get their medicine from the peaks... the Hopi hold it as the home of the Kachinas.

So your "real world" attitude falls absurdly flat in the face of the REALITY of their personal beliefs.

[bigtree]

56. this is a specific place of worship

"Making snow from reclaimed wastewater will substantially burden the exercise of religion by traditional Navajos, he argued, specifically participation in various healing and protection ceremonies such as Blessingway, Night Chant, Enemy Way, Protection Way, and in the puberty ceremony for young Navajo women, known as the Kinaalda.

"The healing ceremonies are a vibrant and vital part of Navajo life in the present day," Shanker said. "The Enemy Way ceremony, in particular, has proven effective in healing the psychological illnesses of Navajo soldiers returning from war ... "

"If the sacred mountain is desecrated by the deposit of reclaimed water on the mountain, the healing powers of the sacred soil and various herbs, water and sacred objects from the mountain will be diminished or destroyed, and the Blessingway ceremony will not achieve its purposes," he argued.

The Navajo Kinaalda ceremony celebrates the transition of a girl to a woman. San Francisco Peak is the mountain where Changing Woman completed the Kinaalda and left it as a gift to Navajo women. "Defiling the mountain by governmental action defiles the Kinaalda ceremony and is an affront to the religious sensibilities of every Navajo," Shanker argues in his appeal."

http://www.gallupindependent.com/2005/oct/101205scrdpks.html

[FredUptoHere]

66. do they hold legal title to it?

most churches own their land.
that way they can worship as they please on it, and others can't put up ski runs on it.

[bigtree]

72. that's a sad prescription for the future.

money talks, human rights take a walk.

[FredUptoHere]

79. so skiers don't have rights? they're not human?

is that it?

btw- are you just now learning that in this country, "money talks"?

[bigtree]

93. skier' s rights? I doubt that the skiers could afford to build the resort

this is a developer's scheme to make money by raping the land for profit. Not very defendable.


funny how you ridicule me for being naive. I thought you believed in the merits of your argument about providence and religion. Now you agree this is an issue of money. Apparently you think its more important for developers to profit from the rape of the land than for those who respect and intend to preserve the natural state of the mountain to prevail.

[Bridget Burke]

98. And why build a ski resort where there isn't enough snow?

The mountain functions quite well as a sacred site, but needs a lot of work to be a profitable playground.

[AntiCoup2K4]

87. Who the FUCK are YOU to define what is Sacred?

Who are you to say where someone feels connected to the Creator? I can say without hesitation that I feel much closer to Him on a mountain than I do in a building surrounded by a bunch of freeper idiots whose idea of "God" isw closer to that fucking Chimp in the White House than it is a man named Jesus Christ.

[FredUptoHere]

100. who the FUCK is ANYONE to say what is "sacred"??

pesonally, i don't consider ANYTHING to be "sacred"...ALL religions and their various followers are "moran"-ic as far as i'm concerned.

[AntiCoup2K4]

114. Wow, that's a rarity

We don't get a lot of atheists from "over there" ;)

[azndndude]

118. Right ON ? Fred up 2 here should be on FREE REPUBLIC

[H2O Man]

15. You are silly. n/t

[FredUptoHere]

17. thanks...i like to think so.

:hi:

[azmouse]

30. I don't understand some people here.

I don't know if the people posting here are the same ones who make fun of Christians
for their beliefs but it doesn't make sense to me that so many are upset over this ruling.
How can they belittle Christians constantly for trying to push their beliefs on others but
be alright with Native Americans trying to push their religious beliefs? Can someone explain
the difference to me?

[FredUptoHere]

34. same here.

ALL religious beliefs are equally ridiculous.

[bigtree]

38. who the fuck is pushing beliefs?

these folks want to continue to worship as they have for decades without interference. We designate tracts of land 'sacred' or vital just by the virtue of the land's existence. The ones talking about imposing anything on anyone are the park officials who want to change the use of the mountain for commercial uses. There is no pushing of beliefs, just the defense of the right to continue to practice their beliefs without interference from commerce or greedy developers.

[azmouse]

45. If they don't like it then they can simply not ski there.

What is stopping them from worshipping the mountain?

[bigtree]

60. you're not giving any attention to the specific complaints outlined here

here's one complaint:

"If the sacred mountain is desecrated by the deposit of reclaimed water on the mountain, the healing powers of the sacred soil and various herbs, water and sacred objects from the mountain will be diminished or destroyed, and the Blessingway ceremony will not achieve its purposes," he argued.

http://www.gallupindependent.com/2005/oct/101205scrdpks.html

[azmouse]

70. Soooo....

We should give all the country back to the Native Americans?
Not gonna happen.

[bigtree]

80. no one is asking that

you are dissembling

[madmom]

41. How are they trying to push their beliefs? They just want people to

respect their beliefs,BIG difference.

[azmouse]

46. Do you respect Christian beliefs

or are you one of the many here who mock Christians for their beliefs?

[madmom]

57. As long as they don't try to push them on me they can believe

what they want.

[FredUptoHere]

51. respecting beliefs and shushing down a black diamond are not incompatible

nt

[madmom]

59. so I guess that means if someone decided that one of the big

christians churches would be a good place for a golf course it would be alright with you for them to tear down the church and make one?

[azmouse]

68. I've seen consecrated burial grounds moved

to make room for parking lots. That's life, get used to it.

[madmom]

81. so this eminent domain crap is ok with you?

[G_j]

112. "that's life" ?

saying that makes it OK I suppose.
I could apply "that's life" to any atrocity in the book.

[FredUptoHere]

74. it would depend on who holds title to the land.

the owners can do whatever they want.

golf course or church- they're BOTH a total waste of land as far as i'm concerned.

[madmom]

77. I agree but if someone decided the wanted to destroy a church for

a golf course don't you think there would be a bigger stink raised than there is about this? be honest!

[FredUptoHere]

83. churches get torn down every day.

but if someone came along and tore down a church that someone else owned, and putr up a golf course without the owners approval, then yes, i could see it becoming an issue- but ONLY then.

[madmom]

89. but eminent domain says it doesn't need you're approval .

[FredUptoHere]

102. well,if a developer can get an emminent domain ruling against a church-

more power to them.

as i said, i consider BOTH churches and golf course to be total wastes of space, and the people that go to either are total morans in my opinion.

[madmom]

121. my point exactly, they would never do it to a christian church.

[Bridget Burke]

84. Yes, DU is well known for being anti-Christian!

Well, not actually. We've got a few Fundamentalist Atheists, but most of us are more tolerant. And we've got many real believers here too. I don't belittle Christians constantly--except for the few who deserve it.

The Native Americans were here first. No, they won't get all their land back. But some of us think a ski resort might not be the best use of the land, either. In fact, if there isn't enough natural snow--why put a ski resort there?

[azmouse]

109. That I can agree with.

The issue should be "Is a ski resort the best use of land in a state
like AZ (where I live) that is in a record breaking drought?"

[AntiCoup2K4]

113. That is indeed a valid question.

Is there any natural snow in the existing ski areas, like Mt. Lemmon? And even if not, couldn't they just use the fake snow there?

Here's a clue, folks: It's ARIZONA. It wasn't meant to be a ski area in the first goddamned place. If you really want to ski that bad, drive up to Utah, for God's sake.

[azmouse]

116. AZ isn't ALL desert. :-)

We do have some areas, mainly around Flagstaff that do get REAL snow in the winter.
But we have been in a long drought with no end in sight. No moisture has fallen in the
Phoenix area since last Oct. And Flagstaff has had no snow at all this winter!!
So this would seem to be the worst possible time to talk about ski resorts.

[G_j]

48. let's give a big hand for "Manifest Destiny"!

:applause:

[FredUptoHere]

105. you said it!

it's been going on for years, and it ain't about to stop now.

[fishwax]

104. It isn't about separation of church and state

Recognizing that these peaks (which are at the center of Navajo origin stories, so they are like a garden of eden in a sense) have been a traditional site of worship for thousands of years is not the same as establishing a state religion or endorsing religion.

Regarding Clear Title: It's federal land. The Ski Resort doesn't have any title either.

This is a victory of corporate/commercial interests over public use/environmental interests. And under executive order, sacred sites must be managed with sensitivity and respect.

btw- i always thought that just about everything in nature was held "sacred" by one Native American tribe or another...

I'm not sure if this is a serious question or meant as a flippant response to any/all claims of the sacred, but anyway ... I don't know if just about everything in nature is sacred, but there are clearly some sites held in higher regard than others. Pikes Peak, for example, may be beautiful and cherished, but not sacred like, say, the San Francisco Peaks (a sort of Garden of Eden for many SW tribes) or Bear Butte (a sort of Mt. Sinai for dozens of Plains tribes).

[knitter4democracy]

5. This is foul.

Why are the Native tribes treated like crap? That is a sacred area to them, not some place to ski over. There are plenty of other ski areas that people can use, so they can leave that alone. Heck, the pipeline hasn't even been built yet, so it's not like it's something seriously needed.

Truly disgusting. Those assholes should take a trip to Hopi Mesas and see how our government treats Native tribes these days. Honestly, the only other time I've seen people that poorly off was when I was in barrios in Nicaragua. That's not what our country should stand for.

[crankybubba]

26. treated like crap?

yes they are. in this day and age dirt floors. high rates of alcoholism. and short lifespans. the reservation should be the shame of this country. but, you don't hear about it on the news. it's truly a third world situation there.

[knitter4democracy]

124. It is.

When we went to the Rez, we were warned that it was the only place in the States with the bubonic plague. That's disgusting. These are beautiful, amazing people, and they deserve better than this.

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. Separation of Church and State?

Do we set land use policy because one group has religious objections?

[azndndude]

120. It is not one group, but the people who been on that land .

for thousands of years.

[KittyWampus]

37. I'm just waiting for DU Athiests & Skeptics to point out the absurdity

of considering the mountains sacred... and that religion is a mental illness.

[Zomby Woof]

61. I am an atheist

And your broad brush about "DU atheists" holds no water. I am a civil liberties advocate who fiercely fights to protect religious freedom for ALL people, which mutually protects my right NOT to believe.

Your attempt at baiting is empty and obvious.

[Bridget Burke]

95. We've got some real masters on this thread....

Master baiters, that is.

[AntiCoup2K4]

115. Huh huh huh huh hhuh you said........

.....Master-bait!

[Scout]

122. cryingshame, meet FredUpToHere

there ya' go...

[azndndude]

128. Is anything sacred to you?

Do you have children? are they sacred? Holding something as beautiful as these mountains in special regard is not absurd. Perhaps if more people would hold parts of this earth sacred there would be less pollution and rape of the planet. If you have never had any special feelings for any area you consider special perhaps you should get a clue, some people do.

[Zomby Woof]

49. Again?

I lived in Flagstaff a year ago, and this decision was approved by the powers that be then, courtesy of the U.S. Forest Service.

Must have left since the appeal was made.

I agree with you, this is a sorry decision now, as it was then. I doubt if I could walk into St. Mary's in downtown Flag and piss on the depiction of the Virgin Mary now, could I? Nor would I want to, because I RESPECT others' spiritual inclinations.

But there has always been a double-standard when it comes to the spiritual practices of the tribes.

[meow2u3]

65. I'm waiting for mysterious deaths and/or injuries to skiers

who ski on that mountain. How will the ski lodges explain that away?

Experience taught me not to mess with Natives. They have ways of administering justice that no judge can match.

[AntiCoup2K4]

78. Poltergeist III : Ski Trip to HELL

Don't these morans ever watch movies?

[zbdent]

73. I wonder if the AIDS virus could

survive in batches of holy water in various Catholic churches . . .

[Bridget Burke]

94. What does the Church have to do with this story?

Here's the "enemy." Quite resolutely secular.

www.arizonasnowbowl.com/

And, no, the AIDS virus would not survive in water. Guess you stay out of "Gay" neighborhoods so you don't catch something nasty from a passerby.

[zbdent]

117. Just wondering if the idea of tainting sacred things to

the "majority religion" would fly . . . apparently, the idea of tainting sacred stuff of the Indians should be brushed off as irrelevant . . .

[oneoftheboys]

107. Treated wastewater...!

Well, at least the lift lines will be short.

[azmouse]

110. The same treated water is used on golf courses in AZ too.

[fishwax]

129. golf courses that have been sacred to entire cultures for centuries?

[bobthedrummer]

108. In regards to this entire thread

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations,"
Romans 14:1 KJV

"Give a warm welcome to any brother who wants to join you, even though his faith is weak. Don't criticize him for having different ideas from yours about what is right and wrong."
Romans 14:1 The Living Bible

These Scriptures pertain to Christians yet are written for all.

DU threads about spiritual beliefs and organized religion are usually flamebait.

That's all I'm going to say in this thread.

[TheFarseer]

111. I'm a bit confused

it's OK to use the mountain for commercial skiing, but artificial snow is where they draw the line??? It's just replacing the snow lost due to global warming anyway. I can't see what the big deal is if commercial skiing was fine, why on earth not this?

[azndndude]

119. To the Indian people in the area, It was never OK as a ski resort

[bigtree]

127. This development is on National Forest public lands and would:

1. Occur in an area surrounded on three sides by Kachina Peaks Wilderness Area leaving no buffer and altering for generations the character of this montane forest
2. Involve massive snow-making, using 180 million gallons of "reclaimed" sewage wastewater that has been shown to contain pollutants such as pharmaceuticals and hormones
3. Require 74 acres of clear-cuts in Old Growth and potential Mexican Spotted Owl habitat
4. Install new lifts, parking facilities, buildings, underground storage tanks, and access roads
5. Take place on Lands held sacred by 13 tribes. For the Navajo, the Peaks are the Sacred Mountain of the west, Doko'oo'sliid, "Shining On Top," a key boundary marker and a place where medicine men collect herbs for healing ceremonies. To the Hopi, the Peaks are Nuvatukaovi, "The Place of Snow on the Very Top," home for half of the year to the ancestral Kachina spirits who live among the clouds around the summit. When properly honored through song and ceremony, the Kachinas bring gentle rains to thirsty corn plants. The peaks are one of the "sacred places where the Earth brushes up against the unseen world," in the words of Yavapai-Apache Chairman Vincent Randall
6. Flatly contradict the August 2000 US Government Department of the Interior buy out of a destructive pumice mining operation of the eastern side of the San Francisco Peaks for reasons including the ongoing desecration of Native American Scared Lands

[Spider Jerusalem]

126. Nothing new here.

The Sioux didn't want the pantheon of the gods of the Republic carved into the side of Mount Rushmore, and they don't want the monstrous 'memorial' to Crazy Horse that's being carved into another of the Black Hills. But of course their protests count for nothing against the projected revenues a new tourist attraction will bring in.

[welshTerrier2]

130. Firesign Theatre: "That's Our Sacred Antenna"

THE SCENE: Against a backdrop of the prairies, two Indians watch a heard of buffalo passing by.
INDIAN: Well, I think it's about time - the way the corn's been growing for the last two or three generations.
SECOND INDIAN: Look at that heard of buffalo! They're ready!
INDIAN: Everything's living The Great Spirit's Way - in Harmony.
SECOND INDIAN: He'll be here soon.
INDIAN: The True White Brother is coming home. Remember what the Great Spirit said? If we did what we were supposed to do, and lived according to the Plan, White Brother would finish his work in the East and come back to us.
SECOND INDIAN: It'll be nice to have the family together again.
A Conquistador, a Padre and several Spanish soldiers enter to a trumpet fanfare and flamenco music. The buffalo scatter.
CONQUISTADOR: Buenos dias, amigos!
INDIAN: Hello! You must be The True White Brother!
CONQUISTADOR: Sure! You must be The Indians!
INDIAN: Yes!
SECOND INDIAN: Welcome Home!
All the Spanish soldiers cheer.
CONQUISTADOR: Welcome to New Spain! This is your new Father - Father Corona.
FATHER CORONA: Pax vneuti nicutm! down on your knees, now! D'ye recognize what I'm holidn' over your head, lads?
INDIAN: It's a Cross. The Symbol of the Quartering of the Universe into Active and Passive Principles.
FATHER CORONA: God have mercy on their heathen souls!
CONQUISTADOR: What the Father means is - what is the Cross made of? Gold! Have you got any?
INDIAN: No.
CONQUISTADOR: What about the Seven Cities of Gold? Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas?
SECOND INDIAN: This is Gold.
CONQUISTADOR: What's that?
INDIAN: Corn.
SPANISH SOLDIER: Corn! Now we can make tortillas!
ANOTHER SPANISH SOLDIER: We been waiting for this for hundreds of years!
THIRD SPANISH SOLDIER: I just invented tacos!
CONQUISTADOR: So this is all you've got?
INDIAN: Yes, but aren't you The True White Bother who's supposed to come and live with us in peace?
CONQUISTADOR: Sure! Therefore, I claim this rich, verdant pasture land in the name of the Empire of Spain!
VESPUCCI: Hey! Hey, Capitano! The rain, she's a-stoppa to fall! And the corn, she's all dead!
CONQUISTADOR: Shuduppa', Vespucch! I claim this stinking desert in the name of the Empire of Spain. Forever! Let's go!
The Spanish soldiers grumble. The buffalo heard mills about.
SPANISH SOLDIERS: (singing) God bless Vespucciland! M-m-m-mmmmmm...
FATHER CORONA: Oh! By the way, Domini Domini Domini, you're all Catholics now! God bless you!
CONQUISTADOR: Come on, Father! No one in their right mind would live in this stinking desert!
THIRD SPANISH SOLDIER: Come on, Cisco!
The Spaniards leave and the Indians hide as a wagon train enters. One Pioneer plays "Oh, Susanna" on a harmonica. Another Pioneer speaks:
ANOTHER PIONEER: Boy! I'm tired o' pushin' West! How long ago'd we leave Goshen?
THIRD PIONEER: 'Bout two hours ago! Ain't we ever gonna stop?
PIONEER: Quiet down now, boys! Wagon Boss is gonna speak!
WAGON BOSS: My fellow settlers! We stand here at the Edge O' Civilization, on the banks of the Mississippi River, lookin' West, at Our Destiny!
PIONEER: You can say that again!
WAGON BOSS: What may appear to the fainthearted as a limitless expanse of Godforsaken wilderness...
THIRD PIONEER: Sure is!
WAGON BOSS: ...is, in reality, a Golden Opportunity for humble, God-fearin' people like ourselves, an' our families, an' our children, an' the generations a-comin', to carve a new life - outta the American Indian!
The Indian comes out of hiding.
INDIAN: Welcome, White Brother!
WAGON BOSS: Injuns! Draw the wagons up into a circle!
INDIAN: Why do you always do that?
WAGON BOSS: We get better reception that way! Do you mind if I put this antenna up on yonder peak?
INDIAN: That's our Sacred Mountain.
WAGON BOSS: This is our Sacred Antenna! It's shaped like a cross! Made out of aluminum. Er-got any aluminum?