URGENT HELP: is pen register information akin to (NSA) phone records?

[originalpckelly]

Here is the definition of a pen register in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen_register

Here is how I understand it:
A device that collects the phone numbers dialed from a phone.

Is this similar to the way the government has obtained our phone records?

I think I might have some interesting information, but this all depends upon this definition. So if you all could give your opinion on the following:
1. Are these pen registers telephone specific, line specific, or in today a database of phone numbers dialed?

2. (Lawyers, or other law experts) Do you think the law governing pen registers is the same law governing with this NSA database?

Thanks in advance.

[originalpckelly]

1. Need help; compare these laws:

1. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Attorney General or a designated attorney for the Government may make an application for an order or an extension of an order authorizing or approving the installation and use of a pen register or trap and trace device for any investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution which is being conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation under such guidelines as the Attorney General approves pursuant to Executive Order No. 12333, or a successor order.

2. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Attorney General or a designated attorney for the Government may make an application for an order or an extension of an order authorizing or approving the installation and use of a pen register or trap and trace device for any investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution which is being conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation under such guidelines as the Attorney General approves pursuant to Executive Order No. 12333, or a successor order.

As I understand it, the difference between No. 1 and 2 is that a United States person may have the numbers they dial on their phone collected in No. 1, but not in No. 2. Am I understanding this correctly?

[TahitiNut]

6. The 'order' referenced is a 'court order' ... never obtained.

Both paragraphs merely designate the inidividual authorized to petition the court under the circumstances. This is what's quaintly known as a "due process" provision. It's on a completely separate planet from Bushworld. On Bushworld, the court is expendible and unnecessary.

[originalpckelly]

2. Kick And Title Change, really need a second opinion, could be big!

n/t

[PSPS]

3. I know about these

A "Pen Register" keeps a record of the numbers dialed on a single telephone line. According to Bell System Practices (when I worked there), this information was proprietary and was never to be divulged outside the Bell System without permission.

In the old analog-switch days of crossbar and step-by-step central offices, before there was even Caller-ID, pen registers were sometimes used to positively identify the source of harassing phone calls. However, customers never received the information. Instead, the policy was to give the information to law enforcement, but only after the customer had filed a formal complaint about the harassing calls, and the phone company was served with a warrant related to that complaint.

[originalpckelly]

4. So I have some questions:

1. Today do these refer to the general collection of numbers dialed from a phone, or is it a term specifically applied to analog systems.

2. Would, in your opinion a database like the one the NSA has be prevented from creation, if the governing law is law No. 2?

[PSPS]

5. This is far beyond what is allowed

The term "pen register" today is more of a legal term because technology has progressed. In today's world of all-digital central offices, this information (numbers dialed from a single phone line) can be garnered at a computer terminal. But the practice is still referred to as "pen register."

In my opinion, all of this is illegal for one simple reason: No warrant was sought or obtained ("application for an order"). The reason one was never sought is because they knew they would be refused. So they just did it anyway, hoping they wouldn't get caught. Both citations you wrote make the presumption of an "investigation." If one wants to make the claim that simply being a citizen of and residing in the US makes one a subject of an ongoing and never-ending "investigation" then, sure, everything would be legit. But can you imagine trying to make that fly in an "application for an order?" The judge would probably hold the applicant attorney in contempt.