House Injects Prayer Into Defense Bill

[proud2BlibKansan]

The House passed a $513 billion defense authorization bill yesterday that includes language intended to allow chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus at public military ceremonies, undercutting new Air Force and Navy guidelines on religion.

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Before the bill reached the House floor, Republicans on the House Armed Services Committee added the provision on military chaplains. It says each chaplain "shall have the prerogative to pray according to the dictates of the chaplain's own conscience, except as must be limited by military necessity, with any such limitation being imposed in the least restrictive manner feasible."

Air Force and Navy rules issued in recent months allow chaplains to pray as they wish in voluntary worship services. But the rules call for nonsectarian prayers, or a moment of silence, at public meetings or ceremonies, especially when attendance is mandatory for service members of all faiths.

Focus on the Family, the Christian Coalition and other evangelical Christian groups have lobbied vigorously against the Air Force and Navy rules, urging President Bush to issue an executive order guaranteeing the right of chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus under any circumstances. Because the White House has not acted, sympathetic members of Congress stepped in.

more . . .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051102009_pf.html

[Ringo84]

1. Re:

Apart from the fact that the prayer part was endorsed by the Religious Wrong, what's wrong with that?

I think that a Chaplain should be allowed to invoke the name of their god in a prayer. The government is supposed to be neutral towards religion. Forbidding a chaplain from praying to their god violates this rule.
Ringo

[rodeodance]

2. 'their god'? Whose god? I do not agree.

[Ringo84]

3. To rodeodance

The Chaplain's god. Whoever they believe in.
Ringo

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. BTW, welcome to DU

However short your stay may be :hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. That would be fine as long as it's a SILENT prayer, said to HIMSELF.

Not everyone he prays with is a CHRISTIAN.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. LOL How can they be neutral towards religion

in a prayer that mentions Jesus Christ?

In case you didn't know, there are Jews and Muslims in the military. And atheists. Hint hint: they might be a tad offended. LOL

[The Jacobin]

7. These guys aren't kids in school

They are big enough boys to make up their own mind about religion, no matter what the chaplain may pray at a meeting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Oh yeah and hey they won't be offended

not at all.

:rofl:

[The Jacobin]

12. Again, that's why they're big boys.

Being offended is about the least a military person is worried about these days.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Okay then let's use the N word to address the African American soldiers

and we can ask the Hispanic ones if they are legal or not.

They are big boys (and girls). They won't be offended. :eyes:

[The Jacobin]

21. Let's keep on the subject, shall we?

That subject is religious tolerance in the military.

The courts have consistently struck down sectarian prayer in school settings because (1) school is mandatory; and (2) the persons hearing the prayers are children who basically could be unduly influenced because of their age and relationship to the one making the prayer.

It's that second point that is missing here. People in the military are fully formed adults and are not going to be influenced by a sectarian prayer a chaplain says. They might be offended, but a person doesn't have the right not to be offended.

If chaplain wants to offer prayers for the men and women in his care to Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, or any other deity, this simply allows him or her to do that.

I expect troops going to Iraq will appreciate the blessing of just about anything and everything on the off chance it might help.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. First of all,

do NOT lecture me about staying on topic.

Secondly, read the fucking constitution. Especially that part about separating church and state.

Thirdly, what gives YOU the right to speak for the soldiers who WILL be offended?

[Kailassa]

28. The chaplain is there for the soldiers. For ALL of them.

He is not paid to accompany them in order to say his own prayers.
He is there to look after the spiritual needs of the troops.

Sometimes this will involve deep counseling, and any feeling from non-christian soldiers that the chaplain is trying to push his religion down their throats will make him unable to do his job.

So what it basically comes down to is this question.
How can a military chaplain best look after the interests of the soldiers,
and perform the job he/she is paid to do?

Jesus saw himself as a shepherd for the needy, not as a preacher. He objected to the Pharisees because they prayed out loud to be heard. And he washed the feet of his disciples. If he was in Iraq as a chaplain, you'd probably find him too busy comforting the soldiers and attending to their physical needs to even find time to pray.

I'd seriously expect the soldiers to learn more about the spiritual side of life from the brave medics in the field than from most chaplains.

[Ringo84]

9. To proud2Blib

But aren't there Jewish chaplains and Buddhists chaplains?

I honestly don't know. I'm working from the assumption that there are. If so, then they should be allowed to pray to their god. I'm uncomfortable with the thought of the government regulating how a person should pray.

If there aren't separate chaplains, well then.....they should be more careful. You know, Fr. Mulcahy on M*A*S*H was trained to minister to people from diverse religious backgrounds. Maybe they should have something like that.
Ringo

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Wait a minute

How can you say you are "uncomfortable with the thought of the government regulating how a person should pray" and yet believe it is okay for this law to say they can use Jesus' name in their prayers?

Sorry, doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Ringo84]

14. To proud2Blin

You're right.

I'm weak on this issue because I haven't really thought it through. Sorry.
Ringo

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Thank you - that is very good of you to say

Peace!

[Kailassa]

27. I'm willing to bet America has no Buddhist army chaplains.

And Buddhists don't tend to believe in a single monotheistic deity anyway. In fact, the Buddhist monks I know are atheists. Buddhism is a very flexible religion accomodating a great many diverse views.

As for the idea of Jews praying to their God, in the sense of naming their Deity, you obviously don't know much about the Jewish faith. It is an absolute no-no for a Jew to pronounce the name of God out loud. I'm not sure that a Jew would even feel comfortable saying the word "God".

No, this legislation is all about forcing Christian religion on the soldiers, not about leaving all religions free to pray according to their conscience. Try googling Air Force and Christianity, and you will see what type of environment this government wants for its soldiers.

Here is one for starters.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/22/AR2005062200598.html

Any supporter of Christianity should be against Bushco ever mentioning it, as they are hypocritical perverts who corrupt everything they touch.

[hootinholler]

5. First, welcome to DU...

Ok, the problem is when a prayer or moment of silence is mandated by ceremony, (such as a change of command) in which case the chaplain should use the most ambiguous reference to GOD possible, because the chaplain is leading the group in prayer, which I object to also but that's not part of this issue.

The thing about invoking Christ, is that there are Muslim, jewish, wiccan, hindu and all manner of religions in the crowd and thus the chaplain, who is acting on behalf of the US, is shoving JEEBUS down their throats. That's just wrong, and possibly unconstitutional.

Further since when are bills allowed to be changed on the way out of committee?

-Hoot

[Ringo84]

11. To hootinholler

Yeah. These arguments are very similar to arguments against mandatory schoolwide prayer.

I think I agree with you. I'm a staunch supporter of the separation of church and state, but I'll have to think about this issue some more.

Thanks for the comments.
Ringo

[hootinholler]

17. Oh, and unlike some other political boards...

Due to the threaded nature of DU, we can actually tell who is responding to whom without having to have subjects like 'To Ringo84'.

-Hoot

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. LOL

Good call!

[hootinholler]

20. LOL

Big Tent. Might have a conversion to put it in religous terms.

-Hoot

[Ringo84]

23. Your Ad Here

I know. I just put that there because I don't know what else to put in the subject line.
Ringo

[AnnieBW]

6. I Look Forward

to a Hindu chaplain invoking Kali at a all-access prayer ceremony. Or a Muslim chaplain praying in the name of Allah. Or a Pagan chaplain in the name of Odin, Athena, or (insert your God/dess here). :D

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. And don't forget the Muslims will have to stop to pray

6 times a day. That should be interesting.

[hopeisaplace]

22. is it this one?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I've sold my soul its his to keep
should I die before I wake
I get brownie points for my big mistake.
Iraq.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. No that is el pretzeldente's prayer

:rofl:

Good one.

[hopeisaplace]

29. lol..thanks :)