The illegal immigration "Problem."

[Ian David]

Isn't it amazing that this immigration "problem" has been going on for years, and yet it's suddenly become a crisis?

Why?

According to Bush, the economy is booming, we're creating jobs at record rates, Wallstreet is greeting us as liberators with flowers and bluechip stocks, and we're doing so well that we can afford tax cuts for the wealthiest 2% of the country.

Any perceived financial or economic woes, or if you're unemployed, it can be blamed on the illegal immigrants driving down wages and taking your jobs.

Outsourcing creates jobs, which is why Bush creates tax incentives to send jobs overseas. If your middle-class skilled job is outsourced, that's good for the economy. If unskilled subsistence-wage jobs are being given to exploited illegal works, that's bad for the economy.

Our economic ills can not possibly be caused by the policies of a party that controls The Senate, The House, and The White House. That's just silly talk. What does that have to do with whether or not you can put food on your family? The real problem? Illegal workers. You know-- Brown People.

When your approval rating is at 29%, and your party has been controlling everything for the past six years, you need to blame someone.

It's like when the divorce rate among Evangelical Christians is the highest for any group, you have to ban gay marriage, because... well... because gay marriage is yucky, I guess. And when Evangelical Christians feel yucky, they get divorced.

Unemployed? Underemployed? Deeply in debt? It's all the fault of The Brown People. So, blame them if you're not better off now than you were six years ago. Blame the immigrants.

Blaming the people who actually create our corporate and economic policies is silly-- those are rich, White Republican men. How can we possibly hold them accountable when there are all these Brown People breaking the law by illegally accepting jobs from rich, White Republican men?

If the Brown People would stop coming here, then the Rich, White Republican men would stop illegally giving them jobs here.

Instead, we'd close down our factories and move them to Central America where the Brown People could work legally for ten times less money and with no human or labor rights protections!

Why are the Brown People coming to this country illegally in the first place?

Yes, I know they're coming here to find work and to make a better life for themselves.

But why do some of their countries suck so badly?

Because American corporate and foreign policy has contributed to the intolerable conditions in their countries.

We have destabilized their governments by backing coups and propped-up dictatorships.

We allow our corporations to set-up factories with unfettered and unchecked ability to pollute and contaminate foreign countries.

We allow our corporations to run sweat-shops full of non-unionized workers and their children without any protection for their rights and their safety.

When American corporations saturate foreign countries with factories full of workers making $0.30 an hour in intolerable conditions, is it any wonder that many people are willing to break the law to come to our country to make $3.00 an hour working illegally for those same corporations?

If we were to ship all the illegal workers out of the country, do you know what would happen? Our corporations would send our factories across the border right behind them!

The problem isn't that illegal workers are depressing our wages at home.

The problem is that American corporations will do anything to depress wages at home and abroad-- even resorting to the hiring of illegal aliens, and to the inhumane treatment of workers around the world.

The enemy isn't the mass of brown people fleeing the poverty and oppression that we ourselves helped to create. The enemy are the corporations that actively seek to exploit those people both inside and outside our borders.

What we need:

A Global Workers Bill of Rights.
A Global Minimum Wage.
A Global Bill of Women's Rights that includes Reproductive Freedom.
A Global Environmental Protection Agency.
We need to hold corporations and their officers responsible for human and workers' rights abuses at home and abroad


If none of this appeals to you, then consider this: I don't know if it's true, but according to the Foxperts, America will be mostly Hispanic within 25 years. If so, the Hispanic majority will remember how we've treated them today.

You'd better treat our future majority with humanity and dignity today, or I won't blame them for how they might treat us later. I'll cheer if one day President Jarrett Barrios declares America a bilingual country that speaks only Spanish and Portuguese.

If fairness and equality and humanity hold no appeal, then perhaps you should consider being kind to our future Majority voting bloc.

[Minnesota Libra]

1. This has been covered so much, with and without the flames. nt

[treestar]

2. The unemployed Americans did not protest on May 1 and wouldn't

it have been natural for them to counter-demonstrate. What is the unemployment rate and who is unemployed? Why don't they go directly to these jobs the Mexicans have allegedly stolen from them and demand they be hired and if they aren't follow up with a suit of some kind. They'd have some kind of case with the EEOC or the like.

Reason: such unemployed Americans do not exist.

And there is a shallow view of the way capitalism works and of who employers are. Most of those companies hiring illegals must be marginal. They are not huge corporations with extra cash laying around.

[Ian David]

3. Just to be clear, I don't think illegal immigrants are taking our jobs.

I don't believe that immigrants-- legal or illegal-- are taking our jobs.

The point is that corporations (and small businesses) will do anything to depress wages and suppress Unions-- even resorting to the illegal hiring of undocumented workers.

The Republicans are merely scapegoating the Brown People who have suddenly become a "problem" once Bush hit 31% approval. Any perception that we're not in good economic shape as a country or as individuals will be blamed on them.

[treestar]

9. You're right, they are scapegoating them just as the earlier

waves of immigrants were scapegoated a similar way. With just the added nastiness of saying "oh, by the way, you're illegally on this soil, too."

They only cases out there about enforcing the already existing immigration laws against employers hiring illegals are in NLRB cases! The NLRB found the employer was doing something illegal as to the employees' union activities and ordered them to hire back the employees in the case. Turned out the employer could turn it back and say they were illegal, and so they couldn't hire them back! So the employers only use it to their advantage.

The result of having too many laws - they start contradicting each other.

[fasttense]

6. I've tried. It didn't work.

If you are unemployed, how can you bring a law suit without money? Most lawyers ask for retainers and what lawyer in their right mind would take the suit without being paid?

My son applied at a local hotel in person to clean rooms and was flatly told they didn't need him. He hung out in the lobby and overheard the next guy behind him who spoke no English, get hired. They even asked him if he had SS number. When the Spanish speaking man said no, they hired him on the spot. Yet when my son said yes to the question, he was told they didn't need him.

Of course large corporations are hiring illegals. Just go apply for a job at a hotel. Or why don't you apply for a job picking tomatoes in Florida? I worked for a large corporation picking flowers in Florida right alongside people who spoke no English and got paid in cash. Even Wal-Mart hires illegals but they hide it by calling it subcontracting.

Why shouldn't they hire illegals? They wont get scrutinized by the feds or anyone else. It would be stupid if these corporations didn't take advantage of this very cheap labor. Bush* and his band of thieves are just gonna look the other way when one of their own is an illegal employer. The repukes are going to protect their base, the haves and have mores.

[treestar]

8. That person could have been legal, you've got no proof he wasn't

I've got a cousin who likes to take jobs on farms - he is sort of a hippie who likes to have these experiences. He's never had trouble getting a job. So my personal tale evens out yours, neither of which is statistically significant anyway.

There would be mass demonstrations if there were large numbers of Americans who couldn't get hired because it was provable that illegals were in the jobs.

The whole thing is a myth, that's why.

[fasttense]

13. Except your point is not logical.

Why shouldn't corporations take advantage of a cheap labor pool with such few safety and minimum wage restrictions? There are few if any ramifications for corporations hiring illegals.

How are you going to prove the illegal was hired and you were turned down? All we got is what we overheard. The hotel chain could say anything. That is why no one is filing law suits. That and the fact that people who don't get jobs, don't get money and can't file suits. But of course too much logic there. Eventually my son found a job but making less. Was he going to spend the little amount of money he made to pay for a lawyer?

Not to mention illegals were urged by big corporations to go to the protests. It is to the corporations benefit to promote illegal immigration. That way they can keep their in-sourced cheap labor. Do you think they would encourage my son to go to a protest?

Illegals are in the job market in great numbers. Do you really believe almost 20 million people came to the US risking arrest and sometimes inhumane conditions so they could Not work; so they could live in poverty and not help their families? Those illegals are working and in great numbers.

So whose jobs are they taking? If they aren't taking a citizen's job (immigrant or natural born) what job are they taking? Or are you saying these jobs illegals are filling just magically appeared when they got into this country? Oh wait I know, you buy into the crazy king george's idea that they are taking jobs citizens wont do. That's right citizens in this country are just so well off that we can live off our inheritance while we look for entry level jobs with good pay. I know wealthy parents can support their kids on their huge wages while that perfect job comes along. Sure we are just a country of millionaires. So where do I get my million?

[treestar]

20. Your logic is emotional

So if all the Mexicans leave, these employers are somehow going to substitute them with Americans but pay them higher wages? If the outfit is marginal, it can't.

They would hire Americans if they would. Why would they risk the legal liability (in the law already) if they could just as easily hire Americans? It makes no sense. Those jobs will disappear. They don't magically appear except when a business grows large enough to need them, because it is expanding. The capital to run a business does not just magically appear.

As to lawyers, they often take that kind of case on a contingency basis, for starters. And a group could get together to fund that. If 20 million Americas are being displaced, why haven't they banded together as the Americans Willing to Work or something like that? As for demonstrating, these 20 million unemployed Americans can certainly get together to do that. If 20 million illegals can get enough sympathy for the demonstrations on May 1, certainly 20 million unemployed Americans can.

[Ian David]

46. Let's imagine an American factory in Texas making Happy Meal toys

I think I see where you're going with this.

Let me see if I get it:

Let's imagine an American factory in Cheneyville, Texas making Happy Meal toys.

The Cheneyville Factory employs 1,000 illegal immigrants who make $3.00 per hour to assemble toys valued at $0.25 a piece. Each worker assembles on average 10,000 Happy Meal toys per each twelve-hour shift. Each of those toys are given away for "free" to obese American children with their Happy Meals.

And then one day, all the illegal immigrants are deported.

The factory floor lies silent.

Suddenly, there's a knock on the door of the Human Resources department.

Hundreds of White, Christian American Citizens are lined-up at the door, eager to assemble Happy Meal Toys!

The Cheneyville factory is saved!

They fill-out their employment forms, they get free coffee in the waiting room, and finally get their meeting with the H.R. person.

What do you think the H.R. person is going to tell them?

A) We're going to pay you $7.50 an hour (plus health and dental and paid vacations) to spend 7 hours a day (that's an 8-hour shift with an hour for lunch) assembling $0.25 toys that we give away for free to obese American children.

B) We're going to illegally pay you $3.00 an hour under-the-table to work long shifts in deplorable conditions without any benefits. We were willing to hire illegal foreign workers... why shouldn't we illegally circumvent other laws to exploit American workers? New labor laws just mean there are new laws we need to break.

C) Oh, we can't hire you right now. We're closing down the factory and opening one in Cheneystan where we can pay our workers $0.30 an hour and force them to get abortions if they get pregnant. But come visit us sometime-- the sex tourism industry in Cheneystan is top-notch!

[Bridget Burke]

16. On my way to eat at Teotihuacan* (Airline Drive, Houston, TX)....

I passed MANY signs for Income Tax preparers, Lawyers & Defensive Driving Classes. All bilingual. English/Spanish, that is. (Many Houston neighborhoods have different language combos.)

No "illegals" use these services. But the clients probably "look like" illegals.

-------------------------

* Houston Press Winner of "Best Socioanthropological Study" back in 2002 & still pretty fine.

http://listings.houstonpress.com/gyrobase/BestOf/BestOfAward?Year=oid%3A28907&Section=oid%3A28915&oid=oid%3A31143

[FreakinDJ]

10. You are completely WRONG

Sure I'll go fight the illegal immigrant working a job at 1/2 the wages I normally get paid.

Even if I did call INS boarder patrol they'll just say "when we have a chance" because they simply don't have the funding.

[treestar]

18. Why not? You are unemployed and need the job then. Why don't

you at least volunteer yourself as available? And what you normally get paid is not an absolute right. What is no employer can afford to hire you at that rate or needs you?

Even if they send the Mexican back to Mexico, then, they are not going to hire you.

[FreakinDJ]

24. Stupid asnwer to an increasing problem

Geez...

Lack of health care benifits, lack of sustainable wage is the sole reason no one other then illegal immigrants takes those jobs. Yet the position needs to be filled so as long as illegal immigrants are there to do the work the wages are suppressed

[Ian David]

51. Corporations suppress wages. Illegal immigrants do not

Corporations are willing to break the law by illegally hiring illegal workers so that they can suppress wages.

If all the illegal workers went away, then corporations would just find another way to suppress wages-- for example, closing more factories and sending the jobs overseas.

If you kick-out illegal workers making $3.00 an hour in America, then corporations will just hire foreign workers in other countries making $0.30 an hour.

[Vincardog]

31. Why don;t the unemployed counter-demonstrate? They are not organized and

unemployed.

Why don't they go directly to these jobs the Mexicans have allegedly stolen from them and demand they be hired? Because they can not afford to do those jobs for the wages offered. No one could if they had to pay the first 25% to the Government.


Why don't they follow up with a suit of some kind?
They are not organized and unemployed,

Reason: such unemployed Americans do not exist.
Oh excuse me you are saying I do not exist?



Most of those companies hiring illegals must be marginal. They are not huge corporations with extra cash laying around.

Right IBP, Sanders Chicken, they are small time. If the majority are so marginal that they can not afford to hire legal employees may be they need to get in a different line of work.

[warrens]

4. I tend to agree with you

But there is a problem in several states, with vast underemployment and unemployment. But you are right; nothing has really changed in the past six years, and this is being demagogued.

The Repukes are playing with fire. The one thing they do not want to do is deprive Tyson and ADM and a lot of other heavy hitters of cheap labor. And without Hispanics, there would not be enough workers to fill those low-paying jobs. Why, it might be just like the 90s, when employers had to offer health care and all sorts of other socialist goodies to find and keep good employees. God forbid.

Think about it. There are supposedly anywhere from 11 million to 20 million illegals here now, most of them adults and employable (since any kids born here are citizens). Deduct that from the work force and...chaos.

Smirkie has a real delicate tap dance to do tonight. Americans want the temptation of easy employment taken away by making employers actually do background checks on all applicants. The employers, disingenuously, say they can't do that without appearing to discriminate. Bullshit. They can do a financial, criminal and drug background on you this minute. I had to show proof of citizenship in the form of a passport for my last job.

It's a little game they are playing. Beat up on the immigrants, but don't actually do anything to stop them from coming.

[Ian David]

11. So, illegal immigrants can get a "Guest Worker Card." And then...

anyone wanting employment will need to show identification as well.

We can call it a "National Worker Card" or "National ID."

Or, we can call it a Schedula or "Your Papers," as in, "Your papers please, Heir Cohen."

But now we're essentially creating a National ID System with two tiers of citizenship-- Native and Non-Native. And each tier will have a different set of rights. One tier will be entitled to a minimum wage, and the other... not so much.

As usual, when Republicans do something illegal, what is their solution? Change the laws so it isn't illegal anymore! THAT IS WHAT REPUBLICANS CALL "REFORM"!

Now, in order to get the Guest Worker Visa, you will have to jump through certain hoops. For example, paying back taxes and a $5,000 fine if you want to be a citizen.

Once your indentured servitude is paid-off, you'll be allowed to vote. Sort of. Bush v. Gore says there is no Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. Die Free, or Diebold.

Imaginary Future Nightmare Scenario #1

Suppose there's an imaginary town in Texas called Cheneyville. And in Cheneyville there's only one factory, and it packs meat for Tyson Foods.

All the jobs at the Tyson factory in Cheneyville are taken by immigrants with Guest Worker Visas making $3.00 an hour. And when you apply there, you say you'd be willing to work for $3.00 an hour, too.

But as an American Citizen, they can't legally hire you for below minimum wage.

So what do you do?

You go to the nearest H&R Block office to fill-out some paperwork.

When you leave the office, you have a check for $5,000 in your hand and a Guest Worker Visa.

This would be part of a public-private partnership that allows corporations to administer part of the Guest Worker program.

In effect, you've renounced your American citizenship, and waived all your citizenship rights-- including the right to vote-- and made yourself an indentured servant to the government.

Now, you can apply for a job at the Cheneyville Tyson Factory making $3.00 an hour. Part of your wages will be garnished to re-pay the $5,000 micro-loan from H&R Block at an interest rate of 29%. Then, if you stay out of jail and repay that loan (including interest) within five years, you'll be an American Citizen again!

Imaginary Future Nightmare Scenario #2

In addition to a National ID card being used for employment, it becomes necessary to use it to transact every form of commerce. You need to show your ID card to get on a plane or a bus. You need it to write a check, or to purchase anything with a credit card or bank card or the new "Digital Cash" cards issued by the government.

Periodic government sweeps check and make sure that people comply with the law and have their ID cards on their person at all times. Some people, fearing wrongful arrest and valuing the convenience, eagerly sign-up for a voluntary program to have Smart-Chips with their ID numbers embedded under the skin on their hands.

Eventually, this voluntary National ID Smart Chip program becomes mandatory for all citizens and guest workers.

Meanwhile, the economy continues to collapse. Social Security is bankrupt. Medicare and Medicaid are dead.

There remain only two "safety-nets" for those who are unemployed or unable to work-- the military and "Faith-Based" organizations.

Already, the government has decided that even tax-funded faith-based organizations are allowed to discriminate and proselytize on our dime. Continuing a push started by the current administration, faith-based organizations begin requiring "Loyalty Pledges" before rendering assistance. If you want food, they tell you, you must declare your loyalty to The Unitary Executive and to America's Official God.

To receive faith-based assistance, or to join the military, these loyalty pledges are required. Once you pledge, your status as a Loyalist will be recorded on your ID chip, and in the form of a barcode on your hand and/or forehead, called "The Mark."

[warrens]

39. You already have to show ID to get hired

It's not a two-tier system at all.

[Ian David]

42. Ah, but the Repuke plan is that it WILL be a two-tier system

Guest Worker Visa (you can work below minimum wage) and the regular Americans (who get to vote in elections and join Unions).

Actually, illegal aliens are already in the second-tier.

The Repuke plan merely makes it legal for companies to do what they're already doing illegally.

That is what a Republican calls "Reform."

Find a Republican doing something illegal, and then change the laws to make it legal.

It's called The Tom DeLay Doctrine.

[mike_c]

5. K&R-- and for everyone who thinks the "answer" is further meddling...

...in Central American countries, remember what the U.S. has done to EVERY reformist gov't in Central and South America. The current situation owes much to U.S. foreign policy-- exploiting them over there so we don't have to exploit them here.

[fasttense]

7. How right you are mike_c.

The horrible working conditions and poverty wages are promoted by US firms in foreign countries that don't regulate it. Instead of helping the poor and down trodden, corporations with the help of the US government are exploiting their retched condition.

[porphyrian]

12. Immigration is a distraction issue, nothing more.

You are doing exactly what they want you to do by spending this much time on it; you're not spending that time paying attention to the real issue that half of the fucking administration is about to be arrested awaiting trial.

[Ian David]

14. You're right... Immigration is just a distraction from the real issues...

Professional baseball players are using steroids and we still haven't found Natalie Holloway!

[El Fuego]

21. Two things brought this matter to the forefront:

1. The immigration reform bill in Congress; and

2. The illegal immigrant protest march/boycott which was sparked by the immigration reform bill. The march stirred up a hornet's nest in the country by inflaming both sides.

[Ian David]

23. What brought this to the forefront was the economy and Bush's poll numbers

The economy is in shambles, the middle class is struggling, and the Repukes want to deflect blame from themselves to a convenient scapegoat, which is why they proposed the immigration reform bill.

The immigrant protests were a necessary and measured response to the situation the Repukes created. They didn't riot and burn-down buildings. They behaved like good Americans should-- loud, yet peaceful.

I wish like hell that some weren't waving Mexican flags, because that just played right into the right-wing's hands.

But when someone cites immigrants waving foreign flags, ask them how many people waved crosses and crucifixes and pictures of Jesus while they were protesting Terri Schiavo?

America's been pissing on the rest of the world for over two hundred years. If you piss in someone else's bed, how mad do you really have the right to be if they sneak into your home to sleep in your bed?

Sure, they're coming here because our country is a better place to live than their country is. And part of the reason is that we keep pissing in their countries and making them worse.

What brought this to the forefront was Bush's poll numbers and the tanking economy.

That, and we can't blame this one on gay people getting married.

Republican Talking Points Brainstorming Session Powerpoint Presentation

Powerpoint Slide #1
"Damn homos getting married takes jobs away from Americans!"
(Nope)

Powerpoint Slide #2
"Damn homos getting married drives-down wages!"
(Nope)

Powerpoint Slide #3
"Damn illegal immigrants getting gay married take hot, lesbian women away from American men that want to marry them!"
(Closer... but no).

Powerpoint Slide #4
"Damn illegal immigrants getting hired illegally by American corporations deprives me of the opportunity to make $3.00 an hour picking strawberries!"
(Yeah, the Backwash Republicans will buy THAT!)

[fasttense]

15. I know porphyrian, I just get sucked in sometimes.

I wasn't going to post and then I just couldn't help myself.

My real concern today is the falling dollar and coming recession. Endless borrowing and tax reductions are going to catch up with the US and we will all pay the price.

[porphyrian]

17. Aw, don't worry about those things...

Just bone up on your Mandarin for when China decides to collect on the debt they're covering for us.
;)

[Ian David]

27. Maybe we'll all be singing The Star Spangled Banner in Chinese?

Just wait until the Chinese send us a foreclosure notice on our debts!

We'll be making their Happy Meals by 2008!

[El Fuego]

19. Our corporations have already sent their factories over the border.

Where have you been? :shrug:

The corporation I work for now moved their factory to Mexico five years ago.

[Ian David]

28. Yes, I know. But they can still always send MORE.

And, if we were to end illegal immigration here, factory workers abroad wouldn't have the option of sneaking into America for better wages anymore.

We'd be able to pay foreign workers abroad EVEN LESS!

Wal-Mart will be able to buy Widgets for $15 less, and then pass $2 of those savings along to the consumer, because workers in El Salvador won't be able to escape to a country where factories are paying more than $0.10 an hour.

The Republican / Corporate plan is to keep the Brown People in their own countries where American corporations can legally pay them even less money than they're paid working illegally here.

Our plan should be to guarantee all workers around the world a living wage and decent living conditions.

If people don't want Brown People coming to our home, then they should stop pissing all over their home.

[El Fuego]

37. I disagree with this statement

if you're talking about the Democratic party:

You said:

"Our plan should be to guarantee all workers around the world a living wage and decent living conditions."

The Democratic Party exists to give political power to American voters. The Democratic party is supposed to be the advocate of people who are registered as democrats and who vote as democrats. The mission of the party is to help Americans, not every worker in the whole world.

It's equivalent to forming a union to improve conditions at your own factory in America, and then the union leader says "Screw you, we decided to worry about working conditions over in India, and you're on your own."

Who is going to look out for the American working poor, if not the Democratic party?

It's a noble sentiment to want to guaranty wages around the world, but that's a job for another organization, perhaps an international one, just not the Democratic Party.

[Ian David]

40. I both agree AND disagree with your statement

First of all, when I said "our plan," you are correct that I meant the progressive plan, and not necessarily the plan of The Democratic Party.

And you are also correct, that The Democratic Party's goal is to help Americans, and not necessarily help the rest of the world.

However:

1) Once a party has Congress and/or The White House, part of their job is to set the country's International Policy. For example, drafting trade agreements, deciding what kinds of strings are attached to our "humanitarian gifts," etc. The President appoints diplomats to the various countries and to The United Nations. And it used to be that Congress was required to give Advice and Consent to those appointments.

2) Saying, "Hey, there is a humanitarian crisis in your country," is a little bit like saying, "Hey, there's a fire on your end of the lifeboat."

3) What happens abroad, doesn't stay abroad. The conditions we are complicit in creating within other countries spills-over to America. When Bush issues a global gag-order on family planning, an AIDS crisis expands exponentially in Africa which destabilizes governments, threatens "vital security interests" (Republican-speak for "Oil Supply") and results in more refugees from those countries (including those with AIDS) coming here.

4) Our global and trade policies are tantamount to an undeclared war upon the poor of other countries. It is our obligation as Liberals, Progressives, Americans, Democrats and Human Beings to put an end to the most egregious of these indignities.

Now, Liberals, Progressives, and People of Conscience would find Humanitarianism to be both necessary and sufficient for improving the lives of people abroad. But for the lurking Republicans and Xenophobes, consider this: The more miserable you make things for The Brown People at home, the more of them will move to YOUR neighborhood.

And you are correct, we do not vote for elected officials in Massachusetts to make things better for people in Sri Lanka or Nicaragua or Mexico.

But how we engage other countries directly affects us here.

I think International Trade should be part of the Democratic Platform.

And I think that now, more than ever, we need some sort of "Marshall Plan" type program to try and "buy" our way out of the diplomatic and public relations nightmare that the Bush regime has put us in.

Come 2008, America needs to the Citizen Kane of the world stage, trying to buy everyone's love with his money.

IT WOULD ACTUALLY BE CHEAPER TO SPREAD "GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT" OUT OF OUR WALLETS THAN IT WOULD BE TO SPREAD "DEMOCRACY" AT THE BARREL OF A GUN!

The War In Iraq Costs: $280,959,066,217

Instead, we could have fully funded global anti-hunger efforts for 11 years.
http://costofwar.com/index-world-hunger.html

[Ms. Clio]

22. One of the best posts on this topic that I have seen

It continues to astonish and sadden me that many people would rather hate on the poor brown people than identify and organize a response to their real enemies. It's like they actually believe our corporate overlords would suddenly beg to employ them and treat them like kings and pay them fair wages if every "illegal" Mexican farm worker and poultry processor suddenly vanished.

[Ian David]

25. What would happen is the corporations would move the factories...

to where the Brown People have no choice but to take the work at whatever wage, under whatever conditions, the corporations dictate.

Deport the illegals, and the corporations will send the factories across the border right behind them.

They can work illegally here for $3.00 an hour, or they can work for the same American company, in Nicaragua for $0.30 an hour.

If Americans don't want them coming here, it's not enough to "secure the border." It's not enough to "remove the incentive" by enforcing employment laws here.

If you want people to stay in their own countries, you need to stop adding insult to injury by making their countries worse places to live!

Notice I didn't say we need to make their countries "better."

I'm all in favor of foreign aid and helping the poor at home and abroad.

I like the idea of helping make other countries "better," and I think we should do that.

However, what many people don't seem to understand is that while we do send SOME money and assistance to make other countries "better," at the same time we have MASSIVE programs in place that make other countries WORSE!

I'm gonna pull a Nancy Reagan, and over-simplify the situation: JUST SAY "NO" to making other countries WORSE, and they will start to get BETTER!

Hey, we're sending food and medicine to Nigeria! Yippee! Good for us! We're such kind, generous giving, caring, people. Let's pat ourselves on the back, okay?

NOT!

Instead, let's ask ourselves, how can a country producing so much oil revenue be so poor?

We can't do that, because then we'd be pointing the finger squarely at Shell Oil Company, for making Nigeria WORSE.

America and our corporations are like a doctor who goes around mugging people and then offers to suture their wounds for free-- so long as the patient promises never to use the word "abortion," and promises to let us continue to mug him in the future.

We're making their countries WORSE and then, when they come HERE, we complain about what THEY are doing to OUR country?

Tell an illegal immigrant from Bhopal, India that THEY are hurting OUR country by coming here!

Bhopal disaster
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Bhopal Disaster of 1984 is claimed by many as the worst industrial disaster in history. It was caused by the accidental release of 40 tonnes of methyl isocyanate (MIC) from a Union Carbide India, Limited (UCIL, now known as Eveready Industries India, Limited) pesticide plant located in the heart of the city of Bhopal, in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh.

In the early hours of December 3, 1984, a holding tank with stored MIC overheated and released toxic heavier-than-air MIC gas, which rolled along the ground through the surrounding streets killing thousands outright. The transportation system in the city collapsed and many people were trampled trying to escape. The gases also injured anywhere from 150,000 to 600,000 people, at least 15,000 of whom later died.

The majority of deaths and serious injuries were related to pulmonary edema, but the gas caused a wide variety of other ailments. Signs and symptoms of methyl isocyanate normally include cough, dyspnea, chest pain, lacrimation, eyelid edema, and unconsciousness. These effects might progress over the next 24 to 72 hours to include acute lung injury, cardiac arrest, and death. Because of the hypothesized reactions that took place within the storage tank and in the surrounding atmosphere, it is thought that apart from MIC, phosgene, and hydrogen cyanide along with other poisonous gases all played a significant role in this disaster.

Information on the exact chemical mixture was never provided by the company, but blood and viscera of some victims showed cherry-red color characteristic in acute cyanide poisoning. A series of studies made five years later showed that many of the survivors were still suffering from one or several of the following ailments: partial or complete blindness, gastrointestinal disorders, impaired immune systems, post traumatic stress disorders, and menstrual problems in women. A rise in spontaneous abortions, stillbirths, and offspring with genetic defects was also noted. In addition, a BBC investigation conducted in November 2004 confirmed that contamination is still present.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_Disaster

[FreakinDJ]

26. Makes too much sense

What we need:

A Global Workers Bill of Rights.
A Global Minimum Wage.
A Global Bill of Women's Rights that includes Reproductive Freedom.
A Global Environmental Protection Agency.
We need to hold corporations and their officers responsible for human and workers' rights abuses at home and abroad

Yet democratic politicians are the only ones to dare utter such words in public.

When people realistically, rationally look at the problem from all sides this is the only real solution. Apply these pricipals to our trade agreements NOW. Impose sanctions against cororations who violate them and exploit illegal workers here at home too

Now Dems are making sense on the REAL issue

[Ian David]

29. Remember Martin Niemoeller-- Speak out now for the immigrants

IanDB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Mon Apr-10-06 08:53 PM
Original message
Remember Martin Niemoeller-- Speak out now for the immigrants
Edited on Mon Apr-10-06 09:39 PM by IanDB1

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”
--Rev. Martin Niemoeller
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/n ...


In 2002 they came for the Muslims.
In 2004 they came for the gays.
Now, in 2006, they're coming for the immigrants.

I am not an illegal immigrant.
I am not an immigrant.

But I will speak out for all immigrants-- legal and illegal-- because their fight is my fight.

Their fight is everyone's fight.

We must speak out when they come for the immigrants.

We must speak out when they come for ANYONE.

We MUST speak out for ALL who are oppressed or scapegoated or marginalized, whether or not they spoke out when they came for YOU.


But by gawd, when you do, do not be shy about asking, "And did you speak out when they came for me?"



I am here and I will speak out for you, whether or not you spoke out for me.


And tell them, "don't you forget it!"


You speak out for them.

And let them know you're speaking out for them. No matter which "them" it is.

Today "them" is the immigrants.

Tomorrow YOU could become the next "them."

You speak out for them.

And you let them KNOW you're there, who you are, what you stand for, and you remind them who else needs speaking out for.


You ask them, "Did you speak out when they came for the Muslims in 2002? The gays in 2004? Why not? Well, I spoke out for them. And today I am speaking out for you whether you sat on the sidelines or not."


Let's lead by example. LOUDLY. And if some people need to be made a little ashamed of their past silence, then so be it. BUT WE WILL SPEAK OUT FOR THEM AND STAND WITH THEM.

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x899005

[YankeyMCC]

30. Is it time to move beyond the idea of the Nation State?

It's a pretty modern notion. Seems like large corporations are already ignoring (or manipulating) national borders for their own benefit - time for the general population to regain control by removing this tool of exploitation or at least be able to benefit in the same way.

whoops...letting my radical side show. ;)

[Ian David]

33. Have you read the book "Friday" by Robert A. Heinlein?

Be careful what you wish for.

I don't think we'd get the John Lennon Utopia.

I think what we'd end up with (at least for the foreseeable future) is a world of Corporate Fiefdoms.

[YankeyMCC]

34. As a matter of fact yes I have read it

you're right but still it's an idea worth thinking about. Corps are going global, citizens are not and in that case the people will have less and less ability to control them. And it's not just economics, it's environment/energy and human rights that are all quickly (or already) out of the scope of control of traditional nation states.

Yes there could be pitfalls but there definitely needs to be more Democratic global oversight and management.

So it's something I think is worthy of thought and exploration.

[Ian David]

44. It's possible to imagine a benign system of Corporate Citizenship

Companies have seven things on their agendas:

1) Make Money
2) Attract valuable workers to make money
3) Retain valuable workers to make money
4) Keep workers healthy to make money
5) Keep workers productive to make money
6) Attract customers to make money
7) Retain customers to make money

But despite what our Libertarian friends have been deluded into thinking, a corporation has little or no interest in maintaining a clean environment, and little incentive to avoid polluting.

There would still need to be a sort of United Nations that can regulate certain things for The Common Good. For example, regulating pollution and enforcing zoning laws.

And there would still need to be some form of local governance based upon the geography where people actually live.

Someone will need to arbitrate between rules set by your employer, and rules set by your geographic location that regulate how you interact with your neighbors. Your highway speed limits may be set by a geographic body, as well as which substances you can use in public. Your employer might regulate which substances you can use within your own home, as a condition of employment. Thus you may be allowed to smoke pot in Amsterdam, but your employer may forbid it.

The good news is, if you don't like where you live, you can ask your company for a transfer to another office. And if you don't like your employer's rules, you can seek employment elsewhere.

[YankeyMCC]

47. I think you misunderstand me

I'm not talking about 'corporate citizenship' I'm talking about Global citizenship/global democratic government.

[Ian David]

50. Ah, okay. That would be great. But unfortunately, unlikely for generations

I think that current Nation States are more likely to be supplanted by Corporate States before we are able to progress to a Global Democratic Government.

[rman]

32. there's much truthiness in this message

kick

[mom cat]

35. The Repubs have nothing to fall back on except racism and fear.Great post.

K&R

[Ian David]

41. If the Repukes were smart, they'd campaign on their successes

After all, Bush did make the telemarketers stop calling!

If the Republicans want to re-take congress, they should dump the whole thing about banning gay marriage.

The Republicans should forget the whole anti-gay thing and go after someone we all really hate. They should go after the real enemy.

They should go after...

THE SPAMMERS!

Yes, I know they passed the CAN-SPAM Act. But that is a joke! All CAN-SPAM is just a gift to the major ISPs.

Bush and the Repukes should campaign on the success of The Do Not Call List, and use it to build momentum to turn The Patriot Act against the spammers.

They should make a list of the Top Ten Biggest Spammers in The World and declare them to be Enemy Combatants.

Everyone hates Spammers.

Republicans like bombs and guns and war and bombs and death and bombs and killing and bombs and torture and bombs...

Do you think there isn't a Republican Chickenhawk alive who wouldn't like to send a Predator drone to blow the "Free Penis Enlargement" guys to smithereens?

I'm not a big fan of war and death, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over vaporizing a couple "Mastercard Security Urgent Massage must now read!" guys.

Gay people getting married never cluttered my in-box or tried to phish my credit card numbers. Spammers, on the other hand... I wanna get 'em!

[mom cat]

49. Bush caught a fish ... Does that count?

[savemefromdumbya]

36. Bush is scraping the barrel for issues

he's not going to win on this one

[BrklynLiberal]

38. reprehensor found an article from 2/05 stating that Bush Cut Border Agents

after Congress passed a law supposedly increasing them by 10,000, Bush's budget cuts allowed an increase of only 210. There was an unpublicized caveat in the bill when it was passed. Sort of like a "signing statement", only Dimson didn't have to actually write it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1195383

[Festivito]

43. Will a wall keep them out, or keep them in?

I'm sorry. Is this distracting?

[Ian David]

45. It's not just a wall to keep them out of our country...

it's a wall to keep them working in America's overseas sweat-shops at whatever wages American corporations see fit.

It's our, "Shut-up-and-go-back-to-your-factory" Wall.

[northamericancitizen]

48. Thank you, Thank you. K & R

[baldguy]

52. 29%

And this map:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1200371