OK, how do you think Mexico feels about 'troops' at the border?

[savemefromdumbya]

It's like the Berlin wall all over again. What happens if they kill a Mexican trying to cross the border? Wouldn't it be better to just issue work permits so that they can be LEGAL? Aren't out troops wanted elsewhere?

[napi21]

1. I don't really care how Mexico feels about it!

IMO Fox is an AH and just loves the idea of pushing all his problems onto someone else.

[bryant69]

3. Well I think it is valid to question whether this step

will help things between us and mexico or make them worse.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Triana]

5. My sentiments exactly. (n/t)

[Jigarotta]

19. us foreign policy has pushed a lot of problems onto

the average Mexican. Fox is merely pushing back, is what I tend to believe.

Free trade (ha!) and other policies of the us criminal gangs of rape and pillage have indeed caused much poverty and suffering in latin america.

[DeaconBlues]

39. I'm with you

Mexico is unable or unwilling to staunch the flow of illegal immigrants, gangs, drugs, etc., into this country. Putting a few troops on the border, in my opinion, is the least we can do. Let them bitch. If their house was in order, it wouldn't have come to this.

The American military protecting the American border- Wow! What a novel concept!

[treestar]

43. Could have had the attitude toward the Irish 150 years ago

Just sayin'

[DeaconBlues]

51. The vast majority of the Irish came here legally

and very few Irishmen at the time thought that New York should become part of Greater Hibernia. Just saying.

[High Plains]

56. They came legally? What were the immigration quotas then?

[DeaconBlues]

57. Yes, the vast majority came here legally through the ports

They couldn't just sneak across the border.

As far as quotas are concerned, just as many people become naturalized citizens each year as there are petitions to become citizens. The "its just too tough to become a citizen" line is just a bunch of bullshit. Get in line with everyone else.

[KAT119]

40. Mexico's border w/ Guatemala has been militarized forever. The

Mexican military immediately deports or imprisons or shoots illegal entrants.

Each Mexican citizen has the legal right to turn illegal foreigners over to the policia for imprisonment etc.

[treestar]

47. Must not work well - Central Americans still get in and through

to the US.

[Bluebear]

44. The new Good Neighbor policy. nt

[HEyHEY]

59. Yeah, cause the USA has never pushed its problems onto someone else

[IndyJones]

60. I agree...and he empties his prisons and dumps the criminals over here.

[Recursion]

2. What do most countries do...

...when large numbers of troops mass on their border?

Can Fox prove that we aren't setting up for an invasion? We've invaded Mexico before (for stated causes with about as much truthiness as the Iraq invasion's stated causes) and took half of their territory. We have invaded 2 countries in the past 3 years. Can he afford to assume we're 100% not going to invade his country?

And keep in mind, the Mexican "illegals" here in the US are still Mexican citizens and he has a responsbility to protect them (not to mention the fact that Mexico's economy would collapse without their remittances).

[Jim Warren]

"Mexico's economy would collapse without their remittances"?

Um, guess I just gotta ask: What is your basis for this claim?

[Recursion]

30. Easy:

1. From the http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html">CIA world factbook, the GDP of Mexico is just under $700 billion.
2. According to Banco de Mexico (warning: really big PDF), remittances from workers in the US is just under $15 billion.

So, "collapse" may have been a little bit of hyperbole, but not much... it is 2% of their entire GDP. In percentage, it would be like the effect of $260 billion being taken out of the US economy. Certainly Very Very Bad and having pretty severe consequences.

[Jim Warren]

34. Substantial certainly, collaspe no

Couple of points.

Mexico has a GDP of over a trillion dollars.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

The total money sent into Mexico as worker remittances is mostly, but not entirely or exclusively from the US.

[Recursion]

37. Purchasing parity vs. exchange rate

The Mexico GDP was $700 nominal dollars at the exchange rate as of the time CIA put up their page.
The amount of remittances was $15 billion in nominal dollars at the exchange rate as of the time Banco Mexico put up their PDF.

If you want to put the GDP in purchasing power terms you should do the same to the remittances, which by definition will give you the same percentage (ie, just north of 2%)

Good eye, though; most people don't even read links...

[treestar]

45. That would solve the illegal immigration "problem" all right

Just make the whole country part of the US. Then the only border we have to worry about is the tiny one with Guatamala. ;-)

[Poll_Blind]

4. Once the majority realize these are to keep US citizens IN when...

...the shit hits the fan on this economically-failing country, I believe that any public opinion in support of them will sour, quickly.

PB

[marylanddem]

7. that is a really freaky thought - worth pondering...

[savemefromdumbya]

14. you mean when they release the Birdy Flu

[Poll_Blind]

20. No, when the dollar fails. n/t

PB

[savemefromdumbya]

32. can invest in Mexico instead?

:sarcasm:

[Pathwalker]

6. Who cares? They've got OIL! And they're closer than

Iran! :sarcasm:

[maxsolomon]

8. I haven't thought it through

but i don't really care how they feel about it. its not like they're massing to invade & annex Baja. we don't need to - we've almost bought the whole peninsula out from under them.

but this WILL bump *'s poll numbers - he's DOING SOMETHING to stop the flow of illegals. and that's WHY he's doing it. more deficit spending for a short-sighted band aid non-solution.

if the war (in iraq) gets worse, or merely limps along as poorly as its been, and gas keeps creeping up (and i think its plateau'd because we started squealing so loud that they decided that its probably at a good resting place until another climb) then that will offset any slight gain * will see from "sealing" the southern border.

the Guard WILL skirmish with the Coyotes & shoot their customers. half of Murka will applaud.

[savemefromdumbya]

16. Is he going to get the Latino/a vote?

he might need to rake up some support

[Bridget Burke]

9. "Fox concerned about militarization of Border"

May 14, 2006, 4:57PM
Fox concerned about militarization of border

Associated Press

WASHINGTON— Mexican President Vicente Fox telephoned President Bush today to express his concern about the border between the two nations as members of Congress expressed concern that using National Guard troops to keep illegal immigrants from crossing the border would further burden an overextended military.

The criticism on the eve of Bush's planned Oval Office speech to the nation on immigration came from Democrats, but also an important Republican negotiator in the immigration debate — Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. He said National Guard troops cannot secure the border over the long term and that he does not think it is wise even in the short term.....

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/immigration/3862578.html

The answer? "...what is being considered is not militarization of the border, but support of border capabilities on a temporary basis by the National Guard."

Most of the article consists of OTHER responses to Bush's latest cunning & subtle plan. Bill Frist is the only one who agrees with Bush.

[savemefromdumbya]

22. No matter how many troops you have on the border it won't stop them?

[Bridget Burke]

36. Of course not.

But Bush likes to play with his soldiers.

Too bad that he doesn't realize they are real men & women. Not toys.

[Homer Wells]

46. Temporary!?

Bush-ese shorthand for "placating the Right Wing base until the November elections, after which we will go back to ignoring the whole illegal immigration situation."

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Inland]

10. Probably not great, but it's not in the top ten reasons not to do it.

Fox didn't like ANY of our border control plans, and although many in DU might not agree, he doesn't get a vote just because he's a Mexican.

[Bridget Burke]

50. Bush ignored Fox's attempts to make serious plans.

Bush, Fox Discuss Border Issues

Viernes, 16 de Febrero de 2001

SAN CRISTOBAL, Mexico, Feb. 16, Washington Post -- President Bush, on his first trip abroad since taking office, met Mexican President Vicente Fox today for a ranch-house summit that burnished the newly inaugurated leaders' foreign-policy credentials but left for later the specifics of how to make the two nations more neighborly.

The two men, both of whom wore cowboy boots and stripped off their ties after an airport arrival ceremony, announced no concrete decisions, but they assigned their cabinets to negotiate an agreement to make it easier for Mexicans to get temporary legal work in the United States, while maintaining a firm border. In a statement, the two said they would work to develop "an orderly framework for migration that ensures humane treatment, legal security and dignified labor conditions."

About 2.7 million of the 5 million people illegally in the United States are Mexican, and one of Fox's most oft-stated priorities is to improve their treatment.

www.presidencia.gob.mx/actividades/?contenido=561

Bush declined to "get back" to Fox about any of the "specifics."

(This is the famous meeting where Fox invited Bush to go riding. Bush refused--despite his cowboy image, he does not ride.)

[bdamomma]

11. Mexico is not very happy,

I think the people who employed these illegal immigrants should be held accountable.

[DearAbby]

12. Question is ...what do you think

I think, and mind you it is just tickling the back of my mind. Soldiers on the borders, to keep people out...but in the same way...Keep people in.

I don't like it. It scares me. Why are they amassing huge amounts of information on tens of millions...and another thought that is tickling the back of my mind...there were tens of millions of people voted against the chimp, and those detention camps, that bugs me. :tinfoilhat:


I know, I know, this really sounds tin-foil-hatish, but remember history seems to be repeating itself. Germany had listed those they had considered against the Reich..millions of people. And they were restricted, Papers please. Those without the proper papers were not allowed to travel freely.

Soldiers on the borders really bothers me...hell it scares the shit out of me.

[savemefromdumbya]

24. It is a farse - waste of taxpayers' money!

the border is very large how can we monitor every foot of the border. No wall will keep them out. It is stupid and a waste of taxpayers' money. we need the national guard for the coming summer disasters.

[treestar]

49. Every angle is covered - there is at least a start towards a

dictatorship. It's not that it is so serious for each item but that it is everywhere - the indications of incipient internal passports, exit visas, incognito detention, government control of media, government spying on its own people - the indicia of totalitarianism.

[savemefromdumbya]

55. Putin must have been giving Bush lessons

KGB

[niyad]

13. this ranks right down there with the rest of the really stupid ideas that

* has come up with.

how could mexicans NOT see this as an implied threat? and why the HELL are so many in this country content to let us once again be seen as the big bad bully with really murderous intentions? and just WHERE in the hell are we going to get these troops? a draft?

[savemefromdumbya]

26. ITA

[RufusEarl]

15. Soldiers on the border with Mexico,

they could keep mexicans out or they could keep us in. Just a thought!

[Balbus]

17. If Mexico doesn't want troops at the border...

then Mexico shouldn't put troops at the border. It's entirely up to them.

[niyad]

23. hmm, did someone forget their sarcasm button?

[Balbus]

33. No, I mean that exactly as written.

If you're wondering what Mexico thinks about the U.S. putting U.S. troops on the U.S. side of the border - who cares? It's not their country, it's not their troops and it's not their business.

And, as an FYI, Mexico does have Mexican troops on the Mexican side of the southern border of Mexico to curb immigration into Mexico.

[TahitiNut]

18. Well, I guess the US's 'outsourcing' contract with their Federales ...

... isn't as lucrative as Vincente expected. Too bad their performance got measured, huh? :eyes:

[SmokingJacket]

21. If they're NOT planning on killing Mexicans, why be there?

We could send a posse of lunchladies if all they're doing is "monitoring."

I'd be pissed if I were Mexico.

[savemefromdumbya]

28. lunchladies!

LOL!

[JVS]

38. Maybe they can use non-lethal tasers and send them back home

[Jigarotta]

25. if border patrol was involved in a shooting...

would be quite the difference between them and the US military being involved.

Really really bad idea. but that's what been coming out of the washington sewer holes for years now - dangerous bad ideas.

[savemefromdumbya]

29. exactly! not very diplomatic

of course Bushes have never been diplomatic. I'd love to know what Bill Clinton thought of this

[WinkyDink]

27. What I think will be horrific is NATIONAL GUARDSMEN killing PEASANTS!

[savemefromdumbya]

31. or

pheasants more likely. They won't catch many.

[JVS]

35. It's not like the Berlin wall!

That was about a government keeping people IN, not out.

[savemefromdumbya]

42. how do you know he's not going to keep us in!

[JVS]

58. If it were the Canadian border being militarized, I'd entertain the idea.

But since it is the Mexican border, combined with the fact that things would have to get a lot shittier here before Americans would want to flee to Mexico, the idea is ludicrous

[NoSheep]

61. DING DING DING!!!!!!!!

[rniel]

41. After republicans are done ruining america completely

Those troops will be there too keep poor americans from running to mexico for a better life.

[treestar]

48. Isn't Mexico part of the same Free Trade Area as the US?

It might even violate some clause in the 160,000 pages of NAFTA.

[0007]

52. The only problem will be from within, not Mexico.

[debbierlus]

53. I think we are ignoring that this is a pander move

And, the troops will not be sent to the border since they are going to be called up to Iran.

[savemefromdumbya]

54. we don't have enough troops!

except for draft